Women gather to improve conditions (for everyone)
Posted by Jonathan Maus (Editor) on June 27th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
last week to share ideas and inspiration.
(File photo)
If women on bikes are the barometer of a bike-friendly city, a grassroots effort to improve conditions for and understanding of female cyclists hopes to increase the pressure.
A group calling themselves Women for Bikes met for the second time last week at the Kennedy School in northeast Portland.
The group was created by three ladies who are active in the local bike community: Alison Hill, Communications Director for the Community Cycling Center; Janis McDonald from PDOT’s Transportation Options Division; and Barb Grover, Community Relations Manager for the Bike Gallery.
Their first meeting in May packed a room with 45 women and the result was an energetic range of ideas, from an encouragement program for young girls and how to educate bike shops about women customers, to a letter-writing campaign to bicycle product manufacturers.
During their recent meeting — which came on the heels of an Oregonian editorial about “Cycling’s gender gap” — the women brainstormed about how their fledgling group can be most effective.
Participants included a charity ride organizer, a bike shop employee, a massage therapist, and a lawyer.
Ellie Thalheimer, a freelance writer who teaches yoga for cyclists at River City Bicycles, suggested the group creates a curriculum for local bike shops that would help them be more welcoming to female customers. Other ideas brought up in the meeting included working more closely with the local media, making presentations to the community and taking action on important issues.
For example, local lawyer and bike advocate Margaret Weddell shared with the group that she was tired of discourteous cyclists who sped by her across the Hawthorne Bridge. But instead of just complaining about it, she took action.
Weddell organized an educational event called Bells on Bridges and she and other volunteers met on the Hawthorne Bridge during the morning commute, held up signs about passing safely and gave out free bells to cyclists.
She hopes to someday make a jersey that says, “My name is On Your Left…say it as you pass me.”
In addition to sharing ideas and inspiration, the group offers a welcoming venue to connect with others who care about making Portland a better place to ride.
Despite its name, the ladies behind Women for Bikes encourage anyone to show up and get involved (they were nice to me!).
The next meeting will be a potluck and picnic at Laurelhurst Park on July 18th at 6:30pm.
You can read reports from both meetings and connect with the ladies from Women for Bikes in the Portland Bike Forums.
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June 27th, 2007 15:22
The jerks who pass at high rates of speed with no warning usually do so with everybody. Sometimes they take the track mentality to the bridges, esplanade and busy streets, with no thought of what serious complications that may arise from their stupidity. See it everyday. They're the same ones who don't time stop lights, and after blowing by, need to save face by running a red before you inevitably catch up to them. What I'm trying to say is, I just hope they aren't just targeting women riders. Or am I missing your point of Bells on Bridges?
June 27th, 2007 15:57
Can't stand inconsiderate passers who fly by, and leave anxious and pissed off riders in their wakes. Bringing the "me first" and "look at me go" mentality on busy streets, bridges and even the esplanade is so dangerously stupid, something needs to be done. Then we who time the red lights on our commutes, to better go with the flow, always get blown by as if we're not in the bike lane at all. The speeding idiot usually runs the next red (they didn't time) to save face before the ones he inconsiderately passes, catch up. Always happens. This sucks, because it takes all the fun and freedom away, and brings in anger and disbelief to those of us enjoying it all.
June 27th, 2007 16:14
I run into this all the time, in those same places,and I hate to say it but usually it's a commuter (MTB w/slicks, fenders, lights, rack, big U-lock). Maybe they are running late or can't wait to get home.
June 27th, 2007 16:26
I run into it all the time too, except I'm the nerd riding the MTB w/slicks, fenders, etc (I know, I'm soooo uncool) at a fine pace getting ninja passed by some geared out racer type (I can stereotype people by their equipment, too!). If it's done by a wide margin, it's merely annoying. If it's done by a narrow margin or in sketchy road conditions, it's downright frightening and maddening.
June 27th, 2007 16:39
I always let people Know I am passing. The problem i encounter most is that people have headphones on and either ignore me or just don't hear me. If the "on your left" doesn't work I usually yell "behind you"
June 27th, 2007 16:49
Funny, most of the riders that pass me are wearing headphones too, so when I call out "On your right" to them, they don't hear me . . .
June 27th, 2007 16:58
Hooray! I'm glad to see this group getting organized. If I were still in Portland, I'd be right there at those meetings.
June 27th, 2007 17:15
You know, it's pretty interesting. While there are always those jerk-ass real-he-man roadies who will cut you off close and at high speeds, I find that many people who blow the lights/stops are the people *I* wind up passing:
Someone's putting along -hybrid, MTB, road bike, doesn't matter!- struggling to move because they're in way too high of a gear (apparently cos cycling oughta be a struggle!). I'm closing in on them and don't want to have to slow down and then ride their ass like a total creep, so I decide to go around them. I do a shoulder check, get a good 3-4 feet between us, and pass on the left, and then when I hit a red or a stop sign, the person I *just passed* zips around me with maybe a foot or less clearance and charges right through the intersection without even so much as slowing down. Then the light changes or I otherwise get the right of way, and I move on, passing them *again*, only to repeat this leapfrog B.S. at the next stop.
If you want to go slow or you're tired, that's fine: everbody should be allowed to go at their own pace. But really: why are some people who go *slow* in such a hurry to get through an intersection that they feel compelled to *run a red or a stop sign*? It just doesn't add up!
June 27th, 2007 21:11
I know you all! I toootally agree!
I am sooo tired of reading about all the accidents that happen from cyclists passing other cyclists. You know, it's like one every 15 years or so. Something must be done!
Why can't everyone ride at exactly my pace! If everyone would just do what I tell them to do, I wouldn't have to have so many conflicting feelings and emotions while I ride.
While we are at it, I find novelty sized sunglasses on female riders to be very distracting and annoying. I feel intimidated by the ridiculousness of them. They should be banned at once!
Sheesh!
And on another note, they plan on developing a curriculum to give local bike shops to explain how to deal with women customers? I can't wait to take the copy they bring by my shop to the shredder.
With all the issues facing cyclists, both men and women, this is the best they can come up with? Re-education propaganda for low wage employees and hassling cyclists to dumb it down to their level?
Yuck!
June 27th, 2007 21:37
I don't understand why they call it "Women for Bikes" if they encourage everybody to show up.
June 27th, 2007 21:44
Feminacentric viewpoints are the new black.
Hip, exciting and ohhhh so radical.
Now do you understand?
June 27th, 2007 22:59
Steve and AO, if you need me to send over a reading list I will. Seriously, don't get me started.
June 27th, 2007 23:19
I should have made it clear in the story that the "Women for Bikes" name is not official... it's just what they're using for lack of a better one.
June 28th, 2007 00:33
I am sooo tired of reading about all the accidents that happen from cyclists passing other cyclists. You know, it's like one every 15 years or so. Something must be done!
Indeed. I'd consider bitterly sarcastic gadfly histrionics a more pressing issue, or would, if only they actually meant two squirts out there on the road...
Getting cut-off or blasted by some fool who has to run the light, though? That's a big deal. A narrow miss raises adrenaline levels and can make folks ride angry, and that can result in stupid decisions that result in injury or traffic violations and the subsequent fines. It can also be intimidating to novice riders and might discourage them from wanting to ride again. We don't need angry cyclists, and we don't need frightened cyclists. Both are detrimental.
June 28th, 2007 08:39
How about "Citizens 4 Cycling"?...otherwise you're inviting sarcastic wit and feministic overtones by those like steve. Also I was fooled into thinking my first rant didn't hit the blog from up top.
June 28th, 2007 09:05
Hey All,
It's called Women for Bikes because we believe that while the bike industry has made some strides, it needs to improve gear, equipment, education, and infrastructure that literally fit us.
This Oregonian editorial describes why it is important that is about women:
http://bikeportland.org/2007/06/19/oregonian-opines-on-cyclings-gender-gap/
June 28th, 2007 09:20
The group was formed because there are significant fewer women riding. We know there is a need to promote women and cycling.
Everyone is welcome because we know that both men and women are involved in the industry and community.
The goal of this group is promote women's cycling which in turn will benefit everyone.
June 28th, 2007 09:30
Alison, I can understand where gear and equipment figures into things. To a lesser degree, I can also understand where education comes in, although my guess is that this would have more to do with a welcoming, supportive environment than the specific approach or the material itself (I'm thinking of Ladies' Bike Night at North Portland Bikeworks here, if that helps).
But the infrastructure bit has me thoroughly bewildered. I don't see what infrastructure non-cycling women need to be encouraged to bike that isn't already accounted for by the push for what's often described as "family friendly" or otherwise "safer" infrastructure - completely debatable points in terms of the specific infrastructure, but not so much in terms of the general idea behind it all. Could you please elaborate on what infrastructure you or your group has in mind?
June 28th, 2007 10:46
I wonder as well about the need to treat women differently in the sales process. I managed a bike store and found that the issue lies more with treating all customers with respect than with differentiating between sexes.
By talking to a customer and asking some basic questions and listening to the answers you should be able to place the customer on the correct bike regardless of gender. Ask what type of riding they expect to do? How often do they plan to ride? How far do they plan to ride? Are they riding off road, on groomed trails, paved trails or on the road?
Asking these questions will lead you to understanding their knowledge of bicycles and cycling and help you in finding the best bike for them, again regardless of gender.
The customers who could talk head tube angles, and top tube lengths like a design engineer weren't always the men.
June 28th, 2007 10:57
Well put Dave!
Isn't equality simple?
I have never understood why people try and muck it up so much.
June 28th, 2007 10:57
"I wonder as well about the need to treat women differently in the sales process."
Dave,
My hunch is that you wonder about this precisely because you are a man and it is impossible for you to know what the bike shop environment is like for some women.
June 28th, 2007 11:02
So a group of women wants to organize and use their as-yet-largely-untapped influence to improve cycling for everyone. And they don't want to exclude anyone. What on earth is there to complain about? Here's a link to the press release from their first meeting, which might put things a bit more in perspective for all you critics:
http://bikeportland.org/forum/showthread.php?t=863
Women *often* have different experiences than men, are treated differently, are talked-down-to by bike industry professionals, have trouble finding bikes and gear that fit, and don't enjoy the adrenaline rush of using roads with zero bike amenities. Improving these things improves cycling for everyone. Getting more people on the roads, period, improves cycling for everyone, and women are a HUGE part of the potential riders who aren't out there yet.
Analogy: think about Mothers Against Drunk Driving. A group of mothers want to use their influence to improve society for everyone. Their message is much more powerful than if their group identity included all other types of parent, guardian, and family members, even though people of that description are active in the group.
One last thing: you could argue that nearly every other cycling group out there is a de facto "Men for Bikes" group. There are just more men cyclists, and the industry has long been geared toward that market. Shame on anyone who doesn't recognize that feminism still has a loooong way to go, in the bike world and everywhere else. And good for Women for Bikes for being inclusive and looking at ways that women can make things better for everyone.
June 28th, 2007 11:21
My partner has had issues of being invisible by some male bike mechanics who ignore her when she walks in. Men will parade in after and get almost instant attention. She tried to address this discrepancy by pointing out that she doesn't get this treatment by women mechanics the response from the men was "Well there's a woman working at the other store."
We were also out on the coast at a bike shop, with a lot of posters. All the men where in these action shots throwing their wheels in the air or diving through puddles, racing etc. The few women posters out were all breast augmented sales models for gears, cranks or some other sort of bike part. Where were the athletes? Where were the woman racers? Again, when my partner asks the owner he gets defensive. "well people like that" (he means men)
yeah so I see a need to address specifically women and bikes.
June 28th, 2007 11:38
Elly-
The bike industry professionals I know are equal handed in their condescension and rudeness.
Also you should see the fellas falling over themselves to help the women who happen by our store. They are given a level of service that men rarely receive. And this is not just the cute ones. We really are quite thrilled when women who resemble our mothers, or grandmothers are in the shop.
Why the rush to assume all of us dumb, sexist bike shop employees need to be re-aligned to your agenda? This whole thing is demeaning and sad.
I would also point out, that every shop I have worked at, has clinics and training for how to pander to 'Women's special needs'. Important to note that everyone of these is framed as a means to get your money!
Altruistic concerns are not the driver here. You are an untapped market and the industry is concerned about dollars, not feminism.
Part of the problem I see is in the goals your group puts forth. I am all for more women, men and animals on bikes.
What i am against is a group of people trying to change how I interact with others. A group deciding to stroll into my place of business, treat me like an unaware and sexist arse, and tell me how I should behave. Very demeaning.
I also find fault in trying to alter cyclists riding behaviour, with the model being the lowest common denominator. I do not want to ride my bicycle like a 50 year old who just started last week.
In return I will not crowd you or threaten you in any way. But please do not expect me to ride my bicycle while constantly worrying about how you feel when I pass you. I have seen you wobbling, and swerving along for quite some time as I approach and have no trouble moving around you safely.
And again, we are not discussing safety. It is the illusion of safety. We are talking about feelings and emotions that peple have when they are passed.
You can't grab the world, shake it real hard and have it suddenly a child like utopia. Experienced and faster cyclists have to deal with the slower novices. Slower cyclists in turn have to deal with us faster folks.
I don't see any organized attempts to force everyone to ride faster. We are leaving you alone, why do you have to hassle us?
Also MADD is very close to the type of groups that bought us Prohibition. I am always wary of people trying to make the world better for 'everyone'. I have noticed that they are usually just trying to make it better for themselves and telling me what is best for myself.
Your post and this group have unaddressed stains of totalitarianism. I know that sounds dramatic, but you all smack of paternalism and authority. I am not overly concerned, as that photo shows 10 women in a room. Not really a groundswell movement there!
June 28th, 2007 11:40
Dave said: "I wonder as well about the need to treat women differently in the sales process."
We don't want to be treated "differently." We want to be accorded the same amount of respect in our transactions at the LBS as is accorded to men. Sadly, that doesn't always happen. I have had a number of encounters with male bike mechanics and salespeople who make a whole lot of assumptions about the way I ride, where I ride, and what I should ride, based merely on the fact that I am female. Because of that, they often steer me toward services and products that are of no use to me. It's just like when I went to buy a car, and the salesperson ignored my questions about mechanical details and kept trying to direct my attention to things like cupholders and the thing that holds my gas cap while I fill the tank.
All we are asking is for those who we are dealing with to listen to our questions without first filtering them through sexist pre- and mis-conceptions.
June 28th, 2007 11:57
Pretty exhausting stuff. What I'm getting is that men and women alike get treated differently in different shop environments...depending on who's working that day, and what the the salespersons intentions are with the level of service they're giving... Easy.
June 28th, 2007 12:00
Cecil-
I agree with everything you just said. For your own benefit and awareness, please note the following- This same thing happens to men!
It happens in any environment where the staff thinks they know more than the customer. It happens in electronics stores, gear shops, rock climbing gyms and on and on.
It is not a sexist thing, it is a cliqueist thing.
More importantly, is this really the biggest barrier to getting more women, or peple on bikes? Every study I have read says, no way!
Another consideration is how put off the shop employees will be by the 'curriculum' this group wants to produce. I guarantee you, that bringing that nonsense into a bike shop will be several steps backwards. You will be offending the staff, as well as making yourselves look ridiculous.
But what do I know, I only work in a bike shop and know what all my co-workers think of this crap. Both the men and women employees are completely sick of this nonsense. How do I know this? We talk about it! Right now in fact.
However, we would all love to see more women on bikes. More men too.
Nothing this group has put forth will help with that sadly. You all don't handle critique very well, by the way. You would think this would be valuable feedback, as I am a member of the sexist, condescending bike shop league!
June 28th, 2007 12:02
Steve, it sounds like you probably treat men and women in your shop in the same way -- if so, educational marketing organized by this group won't apply to you, and you can safely ignore it, as it sounds like you will. I can also vouch for it that they won't be oppressing your peasants, confiscating your land, or jailing your intellectuals either. Take it easy.
June 28th, 2007 12:03
In my view, "feminism" in America is both greatly needed and often poorly implemented. I have learned that there are generally masculine and feminine sides to human psychology and social interaction. We live in a hyper-masculine society that is way out of balance.
The brand of feminism endorsed by the capitalist marketplace is to encourage woman to be more masculine. The "model woman" is supposed to be someone who has both children and a corporate career.
The kind of feminism I advocate would lead to a society with greater cooperation, nurturing and listening — and less competition, agency and control. Which types of behavior are promoted in our current organizations and businesses? Which types of behavior do we see in our public spaces?
There is a strong association between gender and psychology — mostly due to hormones. That's why "feminine" and "masculine" are used to categorize sets of behavior. However, focusing on gender equity fails to address the root of the dysfunction. The real issue is how to enhance the feminine virtues in all of us.
June 28th, 2007 12:20
Hey Steve,
I'd love to hear what shop you work for?
As for this group - why do you feel so threatened and outraged by it? There are all sorts of groups out there that help specific people. If you don't want to be part of them - don't be.
Janis
June 28th, 2007 12:25
Guys, I know it's hard for you to understand, but even strong, modern women can be intimidated by activities that are male dominated. Men are more aggressive in general in how they approach things and so women tend to hang back. I don't have time to cite sources right now but there is a ton of research to support this in education and I'm sure it extends to the rest of life, at least in my own experience it does. So if a group is gender neutral and it is an activity that is already male-dominated, the group is likely to become male-dominated and only the very bravest and boldest women will join or participate. It is not intended as a slap to men, I see it as a boost for women. I'm sure that most of the cycling groups out there are already male-dominated. Aren't they?
June 28th, 2007 12:34
Do our current bicycle shops act like cogs in the capitalist marketplace and encourage women to be more masculine? Why is the look and feel of so many bicycle shops similar to that of an auto parts store?
What would a bicycle shop look like that had a greater feminine touch? Wouldn't there be a much softer and inviting appearance? Would there be decorative rugs and paintings on the wall? Would they smell more like plastic, rubber and grease, or more like incense and flowers?
June 28th, 2007 12:47
Janis-
I will never tell!
Also I am neither threatened, nor outraged. Offended and embarassed would sum up my feelings more adequately.
If you had bothered to read anything I wrote, you would know why I have issue with this groups implementation of it's goals. Not its existence, or it's goals, mind you. Its method, is where I have a complaint. Mainly as it is simplistic and reactionary, based solely on anecdotal and subjective viewpoints. Also, I feel there plans will be completely ineffective, if not outright damaging.
Even though I am a fella I have a stake in this. Both occupationally and emotionally. I love the industry and also happen to have two sisters, two grandmothers and a mom. Not to mention all the women I know, who I wish were on bikes. If this group is so inclusive why all the hostility towards my critique and opinions?
It is not a matter of not wanting to join the group, I don't want them waving a manifesto in my face, or harrassing me on my commute, with behaviour modification parties on the side of a bridge.
June 28th, 2007 13:01
"I'm sure that most of the cycling groups out there are already male-dominated. Aren't they?"
I'd say Shift! to Bikes is a definite exception to that, though Shift is so informal as to almost defy the definition of "group". Shift has a very vocal, visible and active female component, which is one of the things I really appreciate about it. (the other main one being that I've never felt unwelcome or discriminated against at any of their meetings or functions, regardless of my weight, riding speed, or fitness level)
Of course, when your mission is "bike fun" your appeal can be very widespread.
June 28th, 2007 13:03
Steve,
There isn't any hostility, only an invitation...join us for our next meeting. Let's meet face to face and work on these issues.
And that invitation is open to all.
Janis
June 28th, 2007 13:04
"It is not a matter of not wanting to join the group, I don't want them waving a manifesto in my face, or harrassing me on my commute, with behaviour modification parties on the side of a bridge."
I have not been to these meetings, but I am willing to bet my life savings that this is not on their agenda nor something you need to worry about. I'm hoping that there was an air of sarcasm in your tone that was missed because surely you can't be serious when you say stuff like that.
June 28th, 2007 13:04
Cecil: "All we are asking is for those who we are dealing with to listen to our questions without first filtering them through sexist pre- and mis-conceptions."
Mommy: "...but even strong, modern women can be intimidated by activities that are male dominated."
I agree with both Cecil and Mommy's comments in general about the gender issues we all face. However, men, modern or otherwise, can also be intimidated by male-dominated activities.
I believe it to be a pre- and a mis-conception about men that leads to only women being offered opportunities to experience bicycle activities "in a safe and comfortable atmosphere" via women-only events. For example, the women-only bike rides offered by the City of Portland and the several bike shop clinics offered for women only.
I'd ask the city and other groups to consider offering the same type of approach to teaching, sharing and learning about bicycles to persons who are not women. The only event I've noticed that comes close to this is offered by North Portland Bike Works with their Women and Trans Night.
June 28th, 2007 13:13
I'm sensing some defensiveness and the debate getting a bit far afield, so I don't want to participate but I do want to make a few observations:
1. Every one of the generic negative experiences women have cited here re bike shops I have had. I believe there are unique bad experiences that women have that I don't or won't, but every one cited here I've had.
2. I was sincere in my statement that I don't understand why you'd call a group "Women for Bikes" if you encouraged everybody to attend. That was not intended as a dig or sarcasm. It makes me feel unwelcome, and it seems reasonable to expect that men would feel unwelcome given the name.
3. I'm afraid I still don't understand the name thing. I agree that we need to increase riders and that there are unique issues associated with women riders and that, given the gender gap, that's an issue that deserves special focus. So, why not call it something like, "People Encouraging Cycling" or even "People Promoting Women Bicyclists"?
4. I'm not trying to make an important point here, just some observations. I'm glad somebody is tackling the issue of creating more women cyclists and I don't have time to participate anyway. I'm not trying to come down on the group, and I hope they succeed.
5. I just hope people think in terms of inclusion because we're really all more similar than we are different. Also, I consider myself a feminist, despite what I regard as Mark Knapp's bad stereotypes and over-the-top pseudo psychology.
6. My new favorite quote is, "[T]hey won't be oppressing your peasants, confiscating your land, or jailing your intellectuals... Take it easy."
June 28th, 2007 13:19
Mommy-
No sarcasm in my post at all. The two activities are both explicitly stated in the original article. Those were the main 'ideas' this group came up with.
I agree that they are ridiculous ideas. They have actually already done one of them.
I am sure that my 'curiculum' will arrive any day now. Even though I have already studied, I am going to try and get an 'F', just for spite!
June 28th, 2007 13:22
Terry,
The City of Portland does offer classes and rides that are not specific to women. They are very informational and tons of fun...you can check them out at:
http://www.portlandonline.com/transportation/index.cfm?c=44099
Cheers, Janis
June 28th, 2007 13:24
I believe it to be a pre- and a mis-conception about men that leads to only women being offered opportunities to experience bicycle activities "in a safe and comfortable atmosphere" via women-only events.
I've had similar feelings on group-exclusive events, clinics etc. for a long time now, and after a lot of thought, I'm convinced it basically comes down to the fact that you *can't* easily characterize men who aren't forthright ultra-assertive dudes bro-ing out unless you do so in a way that would be perceived as overwhelmingly negative in name. "Socially Inept Men's Bike Ride" or "Mechanical Clinic for Guys With Low Self-esteem and Little in the Way of Confidence" doesn't sound all that great. But because women have a long historical precedent of being a suppressed class of citizens frequently characterized as easily intimidated etc,, you *can* get away with making that generalization of women as a whole to help engage women who ARE intimidated for the sake of overcoming the problem, because the implication is in concept and not in the phrasing itself.
Confusing? You bet! An ass-backwards obstacle? You bet! An overwhelming less-obvious gap that needs some serious thought and strategy applied to it? You bet!
Any ideas?
June 28th, 2007 13:25
steve, I think what Janis is saying is "save us the effort of riding after you while trying to attach a manifesto to your handle bars... we'll personally hand one to you at our next meeting." Anywho, Janis, I think your group is hearing it from the inside, both positively and of course negatively. And unfortunately your message isn't getting out to those you are trying to reach, the new and apprehensive cyclists. Good luck!
June 28th, 2007 13:34
The City of Portland does offer classes and rides that are not specific to women. They are very informational and tons of fun...
Not to speak for Terry, Janis, but I believe his implication was that it feels weird to have explicitly sanctioned women-only events while men who might be dealing with some (obviously not all!) similar issues don't have their own group and in a lot of ways *can't* due to both a) the ridicule from other "normal"-stereotype-matching men and b) the furor and allegations of "OMG! Chauvinistic boys club! Why-oh-why?!?" that would inevitably follow, unless of course the connecting issue was easily shifted onto another, more exclusive and historically suppressed or otherwise perceived minority group.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, Terry.
June 28th, 2007 13:40
Nik spurned the idea of:
"Socially Inept Men's Bike Ride" or "Mechanical Clinic for Guys With Low Self-esteem and Little in the Way of Confidence"
But I dunno, why not? Let's get a show of hands here, how many of you retiring gents would join in an Awkward Guy Ride next Pedalpalooza? Though I do see how it would be tempting to try to put on a bowtie and try to join in.
June 28th, 2007 13:46
N.I.K., that's generally correct. There are men who wish to learn, whether it's bike riding in general, riding in a group, or learning maintenance skills, in an atmosphere that is of the type promoted in women-only events.
June 28th, 2007 13:53
Steve, please calm down and reread the article. Nowhere does it say that the group has a manifesto or curriculum to wave in your face or shove down your throat. The article very clearly states that one member merely "suggested" a curriculum as something the group could work on. I can assure you I've been involved with enough groups to know a suggestion from one member is generally very far removed from becoming an action taken by the group.
Now that we've cleared that up, I do have a couple of questions for you. Given the reality that the average American woman is between 5'3" and 5'4" tall and the average man is approximately 5'9", can you honestly say that your shop stocks an equivalent number of bicycles that fit both? Women generally have narrower shoulders and smaller hands than men; if you do have an equal amount of stock, what percentage of that stock is women-specific? What about the better equipment; do you stock an equal number of high-end bicycles to fit both the average man and average woman? Do you carry an equivalent amount of technical clothing and other gear (helmets, women's specific shoes, gloves, socks, arm warmers, leg warmers, smaller sunglasses, etc.) to fit both men and women?
June 28th, 2007 13:54
Terry, N.I.K.,
That is what those rides and clinics are about.
The women-only clinics and rides were designed because of the low number of women and what we heard as barriers. A lot of women that feel intimidated by getting on their bikes and riding with traffic feel more comfortable talking about those issues and learning in an all women environment. Is that so wrong? We aren't telling others that they can't form a group to help support them in an activity.
Also, my invitation was genuine. I enjoying talking face to face rather than on a blog where things can be misunderstood.
July will be a picnic - join us one and all.
Cheers, Janis
June 28th, 2007 13:56
Anyone who thinks I was offering stereotypes is simply not understanding what I wrote. The internet contains thousands of references to the masculine and feminine sides of the human mind. Here are just two that I quickly found:
Masculine & Feminine: The Natural Flow of Opposites in the Psyche
The Jungian Interpretation of the Feminine
by Phyllis Kenevan
"In the analytical psychology of Carl Jung, one finds very strong support for the feminine and no suggestion of women as the 'second sex.' If anything, there is an insistence upon the vital importance of the feminine, which a male-dominated culture has to its own detriment devalued.
According to Jung, both men and women are, in terms of the whole psyche (conscious and unconscious) androgynous; a woman has an unconscious contrasexual masculine side as part of her psyche, a man has an unconscious contrasexual feminine side. This account is characteristic of Jung's general account of psychic life a operating in terms of the balancing of polarities. The maculine-feminine polarity is then part of the general picture he gives of psychic life. This view of the psyche as a balancing of polarities is not a theoretical deduction, according to Jung, but the fruit of his many years of experience, the result of what he calls a phenomenological approach to psychology. From this phenomenology he claims to have discovered that there is what can be called a feminine consciousness that is different from the masculine. Obviously, there is no rigid quantitative distinction implied. What he means is that in general, men and women tend to relate to the world in different ways."
June 28th, 2007 13:57
Good luck fellas. My shop has regularly scheduled Womens only rides, clinics and events.
I have been shouted down, threatened and ridiculed at every turn, for suggesting similar events are needed for novice male riders.
Generally these stalwarts of inclusion use language similar to Ms. Elly-
"you could argue that nearly every other cycling group out there is a de facto "Men for Bikes" group."
Ladies, you do indeed have a long way to go!
June 28th, 2007 14:05
Joy-
You must frequent small and outdated shops. Our shops women sextion is 3 times the size of the mens. The clothing stock is far greater than the mens and in a much larger selection.
We also have womens events, rides and clinics. Many of which offer discounts and services not available to men.
We do stock more unisex bikes than women specific, though that margin is decreasing year after year.
Every price point is represented by a womens model. All of our aftermarket fit specific stock is represented more heavily on the womens sizing, as it is needed to fit them properly when they choose a unisex bike.
This is generally picked due to color, or the fact that no one is yet making bikes for women over 5'10''.
The women in the statures you mentioned have a greater choice than men. We can easily adapt a unisex bike to their needs, or they can buy a womens bicycle, with smaller components and an altered frame geometry.
Sadly, you do not have the slightest idea what your are talking about!
June 28th, 2007 14:07
Let's get a show of hands here, how many of you retiring gents would join in an Awkward Guy Ride next Pedalpalooza? Though I do see how it would be tempting to try to put on a bowtie and try to join in.
There's part of the issue for you, Elly: do an event with a name like that and at best it becomes a farcical parody - people *not* of the targeted group turning up in coke bottle glasses, short-sleeve button-ups with pocket protectors, etc. And that -a glorified costume party on bikes- sounds like a sure-fire way of driving away the sort of guys who might fall into the example groups I'm talking about.
June 28th, 2007 14:08
Ladies, you do indeed have a long way to go!
A long way to go toward what? What is the goal here? Is it to simply get more women on bicycles and aggressively out into traffic to be more like the men?
June 28th, 2007 14:11
Mark-
I was pointing out that they have a long way to go towards not being sexist pigs themselves.
June 28th, 2007 14:19
A lot of women that feel intimidated by getting on their bikes and riding with traffic feel more comfortable talking about those issues and learning in an all women environment. Is that so wrong? We aren't telling others that they can't form a group to help support them in an activity.
Of course there's nothing wrong with that: how can what is ultimately a cycling-positive effort be a bad thing? :) I'm only pointing out that one *can't* as easily create such a group for men without it either coming off as "The Weak Man's Cycling-related Activity Group" or "The Boys' Bike Club". And because of the "men are supposed to be strong and assertive!" cliche, an integrated approach, like the non-women-only events you're mentioning, probably don't work so well either for some fellows, as part of the shy/nervous/less-than-confident/etc. man's problem is that he's embarrassed of being perceived as "less than a real man" in the first place.
Really, I'm not at all lambasting Women for Bikes -anything encouraging *anyone* to get involved in riding and/or fixing bikes is awesome!- just pointing out an issue relevant to gender-focused activity-empowerment efforts that's frequently overlooked, as well as asking for input on a way to possibly address the problem, as well as perhaps some folks more well-versed in skillful articulation of these matters than I to step up and help guide things a bit. :)
June 28th, 2007 14:20
How about SNAGS on Bikes? (Sensitive New Age Guys, for all you children in the audience.)
Seriously, I'm all for bike activities for the testosteronically-challenged. I spent a long time in the Bay Area and Santa Cruz trying to figure out how I fit in as a pro-feminist, not-terribly-assertive, heterosexual guy. (I kind of like the moniker "sissy het".)
Yes, it's true, it was tough for me to go into a bike shop and talk tech, since I was the least mechanically inclined person I knew. But with support from friends, both boy and girl, and places like the Bike Repair Collective, I learned. O.k., BRC can get plenty snarky at times, but when Fred Russell taught the Intro Bike Mechanics class I felt very comfortable and safe asking dumb questions - come back, Fred!
The main suggestion I'd make is, boys, if you need support - put something on the Shift list and ask for it! Don't harsh on the gals because they're working together to meet their needs. Let go of your internal homophobia or whatever prevents you from asking other men for help and looking like a dork. I did. And I still look like a dork. But now I can change a tire.
June 28th, 2007 14:30
Yes, it's true, it was tough for me to go into a bike shop and talk tech, since I was the least mechanically inclined person I knew. But with support from friends, both boy and girl, and places like the Bike Repair Collective, I learned.
I had to learn on my own out of books, and I'm now decent enough to do a full overhaul and true up a wheel all on my lonesome. But even now, because I'm neither the "cool bike dude" or the grizzled veteran shop mechanic or the outgoing effortlessly-friendly-to-everybody whatever, going into a shop and asking after a unique component or tool or for info on a procedure I've only ever vaguely read about before is still a grating experience unless the mechanic I'm talking to is an exceptionally encouraging individual who doesn't talk over me or make assumptions about my questions.
Oh, and the concept of SNAG is great. I don't like the (likely unintentional) possible implication that we're swarming with power crystals and Yanni albums, but the *idea* just about hits the nail on the head. ;P
June 28th, 2007 14:49
Man, I guess I've proved myself insensitive to the specific needs of SNAGs. Sorry guys. Also, QED.
June 28th, 2007 14:55
Steve,
Now I understand why you are reluctant to tell us the name of your shop - you just demonstrated to everyone the quality of your customer service in that rude and condescending reply to my very valid questions.
It's quite a feat, but I think you also just managed to insult every bike shop in Portland. I've been in most, and as a slightly over 5'3" tall woman, it is extremely difficult to find a bike to fit me. Unisex or women's specific, the shops simply do not carry very many smaller frames to fit shorter people (generally women). Without stating names, this includes the two largest shops in town. They never have more than a few bikes in the very smallest sizes. Never have I had a "greater choice than men", especially since we are talking about the average size man compared to the average size woman.
My household owns a shameful number and variety of bicycles. Over the last 15 years or so, I have spent a lot of money in most of Portland's bike shops. If I knew which one you represent, I would certainly never spend another dime there. I'm sincerely hoping you're not at the shop where I just purchased a new bicycle, shoes and pedals.
I do; however, want to thank you for demonstrating so clearly why the group mentioned in this article is needed.
June 28th, 2007 14:56
... sexist pigs themselves.
Hmm ... I reviewed the discussion and didn't see it that way. But sexism is a possible result if people view feminism as merely gender equity.
Perhaps you ought to accept their invitation and meet the group in person, Steve. Real human contact is always best for clarifying differences and common ground.
Sensitive New Age Guys
Christine Lavin and John Gorka did a great spoof of that one a few years ago. The point of their humor was to caution against eviscerating the masculine side in our quest to develop the feminine. Perhaps the goal is balance.
June 28th, 2007 15:05
Joy-
Your 'valid' questions were loaded, and full of insinuations.
You also are not a customer right now, so I am not being paid to pander to your illusions of entitlement.
It is funny that you have such a hard time finding a bike. I have worked in the industry for 15 years and sell women your height bicycles several times a day.
Must just be you!
June 28th, 2007 15:06
Females and gentlemen, I say let's go have a couple PBR's, then as a group go to Fat Tire Farm and get our spandex and bow ties handed to us. Cured. The leap into the netherworld of cycling is intimidating at best, but by holding each others hands (we're buzzed now remember) we can go feet first into the most testosterone driven, boys club of a shop there is and be done with it. Welcome to cycling, it only gets better from here.
June 28th, 2007 15:15
I'll be at Jax downtown at 5 having a couple of PBRs if anyone wants to join me...
June 28th, 2007 15:54
Steve
I was actually with Joy when she purchased her last bike. When it came right down to it she had a choice of three bikes. A low end bike that fit a mid range bike that fit and a high end bike that had the right size frame but nothing else worked because it was manufactured for a man. The bars were to big, the reach on the levers was to great, the stem was to long, the cranks were to long. We wanted the high end bike but ended up with the mid range bike because of the cost to change all of the items that did not fit. Joy as she stated is an average size women. Now if I were to go to the same shop and try to buy a bike I would be able to choose from no less than ten bikes in all price catagories. I have been in every shop in the metro area and they all carry similar inventory. To my understanding this group is merely getting together to work on ideas for improving womens cycling in general and the bike shop is only one aspect of that.
If you are truly a bike industry professional you would know that you are always pandering to illusions of entitlement (they are your customers and are entitled) because next year there is going to be a new bike with a new groupo, new frame materials and the existing customer will be looking for a new ride. You being the bike industry professional that you are can sit back and critisize this return to your cave or take note of their concerns and sieze the market oportunity to sell more bikes,
June 28th, 2007 16:02
Sorry, ME and A.O., real women (and men) drink Real Ale - none of that mass- marketed psuedo-hip but really corporate American fizzy yellow p***-water! ;p.
June 28th, 2007 16:04
Let's make it Terminal Gravity then. And if we're going to talk about "real" men and women, let's just see how many of those you can handle, Cecil. :p
June 28th, 2007 16:20
Ah, TG, now THAT's a real beer. And, I can tell you exactly how many of those I can handle. 4 pints. Then I go all Elizabeth Taylor in "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf." I used to be better, but there was that whole everclear incident back in 1982. . . .
Sadly, I will have to demonstrate my lack of hollow leg another time - tonight's booked. I've got manifestos to shove.
June 28th, 2007 16:25
Thanks for the offer gentlemen - another time I will be at the Lab.
June 28th, 2007 16:53
This has been very enlightening a discussion. I have a bit of expertise in the intersection between biking and sexism. My former professional career was working for women's rights. I currently work with Janis at Transportation Options as the Program Manager for Outreach and Education.
When a man looks in a mirror, he sees a human being; when a woman looks in the mirror she sees a woman. The simple way to describe what bias and subtle discrimination looks like today is to say that as much as we would all like to be seen as equal, as much as we would all like to see ourselves as full participants in the worlds we live in, and as much as we would like to think we treat each other respectfully/fairly/equally, that is not the experience of many women as women who ride bicycles.
For those of you are finding this hard to believe about the bicycling community and bicycling in general, how many women do you need to hear that this is the truth for them? How many statistics, anecdotes, charts, graphs and stories does it take to see that there is real sexism and sexism in the bicycling community?
And if there existed this kind of consistent and pervasive under-current of bias and subtle discrimination in bike shops and in bicycling - wouldn't that make you want to do something about it?
I choose to believe that the City of Portland has a responsibility to address this constituency that is under-represented in cycling, which we do with our Women On Bikes program.
If you don't think it is important.... or misguided or unnecessary, then why protest at all......
June 28th, 2007 17:11
Everyone, please follow this link and read it. The whole thing. It describes the process by which IDEO and Shimano came up with the Coasting component group. While you may not agree with the concept of Coasting, the PROCESS that they went through, learning from non-cyclists (male and female) is illuminating.
http://www.hemispheresmagazine.com/feb07/executivesecrets.html
Or, as the Indian (as in India) proverb goes: "Before you walk a mile in someone's shoes - first take off your own shoes."
June 28th, 2007 17:13
If a man looks in a mirror and sees a human. And a woman looks in the mirror and sees a woman, who is the sexist? Secondly where did you come up with that nonsense?
No one here has devalued getting more women(and people) onto bicycles. In fact we appear to actually have a consensus there!
The trouble is with sexist zealots such as you, seeing issues that affect everyone, only through your self serving lens of 'sexism'.
It is quite simple to argue(and many here have) that all the sexism you are seeing is merely snobbish, priggish elitism. And that dear readers, can, and is directed at men and women.
I wear glasses and am bald.
It would be easy for me to place every misdeed directed at me and every instance in which I am uncomfortable or perceive a sleight, onto those two traits.
It would also be absurd!
To sum up-
Arrogant jerks are not necessarily sexist. There are plenty of cliquish and snobbish female employees of bike shops. Head down to the sandy bike gallery or city bikes for a good example.
You already have special programs, courses, support from the city, and the large local shops. Funny that none of that seems to be solving the problem, huh?
Instead of misguided gender baiting nonsense, perhaps energies would be better served elsewhere?
Perhaps improving infrastructure for cyclists?
Perhaps improving safety for cyclists.
Perhaps elevating the publics awareness of cyclists needs.
Perhaps legislation and enforcement policies to protect cyclists?
Perhaps public relations efforts to glamorize cycling and its benefits?
Perhaps causing it not to rain so much?
Perhaps designing a helmet that does not mess up your hair?
Perhaps a bicycle that does not make you all dirty and sweaty?
I know that many of these issues are currently being worked on. I also know some of the fine women in this group are working on or actually leading these efforts. Keep it up! Just pause a moment before alienating half the population, why dontcha?
These are the most common concerns we hear in the shop. Safety, comfort, style and SAFETY!
Or you can just blame it all on the poor schmuck, making a bit above minimum wage down at your corner bike shop. Yup, I am sure it is all his fault.
Again, SHEESH!
June 28th, 2007 17:39
Chris-
Have you heard of a little company called TREK? How about Cannondale, Specialized or Giant?
They all make women specific bikes at nearly every price point.
Trek makes them at every price point, in every size except the largest. Being as Trek is by far the largest bike company and numerous stores in town carry their full line, I can only presume that.. Well I do not know what to presume, as what you are saying makes absolutely no sense!
If you knew anything about people, or retail, you would know that the only peple who need their sense of entitlement pandered to, are those with an over-reaching sense of entitlement.
I guess we don't need to drag classism into this as well as feminism, though it looks like you have. Customers are not 'entitled' to anything. The both of you through your words, have shown why you have a less than stellar shopping experience.
No retail slave wants to put up with holier than thou customers, who feel that the simple fact they are spending money, allows them to treat the staff like indentured servants.
I treat people like people. The only folks I treat with disdain, are those with entitlement issues. Anyone who would ever think to say "the customer is always right", would fall into that category.
Fortunately, in this fabulous and friendly city, there are very few people like you.
June 28th, 2007 17:54
Steve,
I would very much appreciate it if you would refrain from making personal insults to other commenters.
thank you.
June 28th, 2007 17:58
Sure thing Jonathon.
Please feel free to change the word 'you' to 'this'. Or delete the whole thing!
Would be swell to have an edit function by the way.
June 28th, 2007 18:30
I gave up trying to read this entire thread around #30, so forgive me if what I am about to say has already been said.
Steve, I think you have inadvertently proven the need for a Women for Bikes group. You have made numerous, thoughtlessly sexist statements in the course of your arguments. I'm sure you will say "I was joking! Don't be so oversensitive!" But isn't there truth to every joke?
You asked if women need "a helmet that doesn't make you dirty and mess up your hair" to ride more in post #70. In post #24 you implied that women are teetering along on their bikes and it's not your fault if you pass them. In the same post you said that 10 women in a room doesn't look like a groundswell movement to you.
I don't feel the need to give you anectodtal evidence as to why it can be difficult to be a woman cyclist. But from birth onwards, most women are not encouraged to tinker with mechanical things or get their hands dirty. So bikes can be very intimidating simply because they are out of our realm. Bikes aren't "ladylike". You have to get sweaty. Men will invariably make rude comments when you ride (like "nice crotch shot" on a day I decided to wear a mini skirt). If you are enveloped in this culture that tells women the very specific things that are and are not acceptable, getting on a bike is really scary. In our culture's eyes, for men, sweaty, public physical activity is masculine and strong. For women, it's dangerous and disgusting. So we need groups like this to remind women that riding a bike is actually quite safe and liberating.
I was lucky enough to have a family that didn't impress gender roles upon me too strongly, and thus I am happy both fixing my bike and sewing a dress. But not everyone has that awareness. I agree with Mark Knapp to an extent, in that we would all do well to break out of our prescribed gender roles. Until that, though, we can at least make efforts to encourage folks to respect women who ride.
I also think you thoroughly underestimate the power of small, passionate groups. The Guerilla Girls have become an international movement fighting sexism in the art world. They didn't start with very many people, either.
Also, to the Women for Bikes: I would love to come to your picnic, but the Sprockettes are leaving for tour that night! Maybe the bus can stop by and we can all say hi on our way out of town. Please contact us if you are having any benefits or events, I bet we'd all be psyched to do it!
June 28th, 2007 19:16
Bunny-
I was not joking and I do not think you are being overly sensitive. I think you did not read all the posts and simply skimmed mine.
You have proven my assertion that some people are prone to seeing sexism everywhere they look.
Women as well as men complain of being dirty and sweaty while cycling. They express that as a barrier to cycling. Both genders also have hair, and complain of helmets mussing it up. You are aware that men sweat and have hair, right?
I was mentioning a string of issues affecting all potential and novice cyclists. I also pass plenty of swerving, tittering and slow male cyclists. Never once did I mention female cyclists as being exclusively slow nor was I referring to a female cyclist. I was referring to slow cyclists.
You yourself have just made several over-reaching generalizations about men, with sexist undertones. From a certain perspective, of course.
I could read sexism into your words. Or I could simply decide that you are trying to make some generalizations to defend your ideaology from an imagined attack.
June 28th, 2007 19:29
This will be my last post on this topic. Steve can have the last word. There is; however, one important thing I must say about Portland bike shops before I go.
Neither Chris nor I said (or implied) that we had ever had a "less than stellar shopping experience". In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. We have only had wonderful experiences at all of the bike shops in town! After spending 20+ years in retail, I tend to go out of my way to be friendly, respectful and polite to the people who work in any store; I do not consider them "servants", indentured or otherwise, nor do I treat anyone with disdain. I'm not using a pseudonym here - people know who I am and I feel very comfortable making that statement publicly.
And yes, we know that those companies you mention make women specific bikes (as does Bianchi). Our point was that there are never very many models of bikes to try in small sizes; while at the same time, in the same store, there are always loads of bikes in stock in larger sizes. We have had salespeople and store owners tell us that they are sorry, but the industry has not yet caught up to the demand for women's equipment. You may dispute it, but that has been our experience throughout the metro area.
Although I mentioned spending money in all the bike shops in town, I am absolutely not responsible for keeping anyone in business. Like anyone, I need tubes, tires and other items on a fairly regular basis; I don't drive and rely on bikes for transportation as do my two driving-age children (one male, one female). Also, like anyone else who loves bikes, I always check out the new bikes when I'm in the bike shop. The bike I just purchased was my first brand new bike in 6 years and the shoes were purchased to replace the pair I bought 7 years ago. You seem to have assumed some things about me, but the reality is I don't have money to throw around and I feel far from "entitled" to anything other than common courtesy. Oh, and perhaps a little equality.
The availability of bicycles is just one small issue that I chose to mention because it is part of my personal experience as a woman cyclist. I could have mentioned myriad other issues, but I didn't because those issues had already been articulated so well in the comments from Elly, Cecil, beanphed, Jonathan and others.
I'm not really sure why you are so worked up here, no one has an agenda they wish to cram down your throat and certainly no one is blaming the people in bike shops for anything. Some women are just getting together to try to encourage more people (male and female) to ride bikes. We are all just trying to have a dialog here.
Please wait until you have at least met us to insult us.
June 28th, 2007 21:31
Hey Y'all- I was the one at the meeting who suggested the "curriculum," for lack of better word. Opening conversation with shops just seemed logical and mutually beneficial to me. Bike shops want people on bikes, Women for Bikes wants to get more women on bikes. The goals are aligned and cheerful. I am a bike tour guide for an all women's company, my fam owns a bike shop, and I know many people who work at bike shops. I see the same issues come up over and over again for women with their bike shop experiences....which many times result in them avoiding shops and even putting off buying bikes. It just happens and that sucks. And most of the time shops have nothing but the best intentions. So it's worth broaching the subject with shops, even the fabulous ones who generally do a bang up job, so we all can brainstorm how this relatively untapped demographic can be better supported in busting it up on two wheels. No dogma, no pulpits, just some discussion and possibly the formation of lovely sembiotic relationships. Good for the community, good for the bottom line. Mark, I love the theory. And there were some great points floating around about these issues affecting both men and women. Ely, I like your name and manner of articulation. Steve, I love you. Hope everyone has a great weekend. I'm going back packing! Yeehaw.
June 28th, 2007 22:15
I want to say THANK YOU to all of the ladies who are working on this, especially Janis. Mia Burke put it perfectly when she mentioned that gender equality was used as a measuring stick of the safety of a neighborhood. Portland's inner southeast is the only area in the country where this exists.
Women are more willing to carry their children by bike (think next generation biking), their safety conscious and so will work harder for safe streets, their generally more diplomatic and more able to connect with the unafiliated, and imagine if we get to a point where guys are ditching their cars so as to connect with those awesome women.
We are the only city in North America that has a female frame builder (sweetpea), and a bike clothing fabricator (Susan Ostensas).
I fully support this and intend to be at the next meeting (unless it's during a camping trip).
June 29th, 2007 09:13
Okay ladies, any of you that have thought about racing - now is the time. There is a chance that the women's Cat 3/4s will be canceled at the Mt. Hood CC and Cascade Classics (Bend area) because of low attendance.
I know that Sorella Forte would LOVE to mentor some more women in racing skills and miles. Check them out at sorellaforte.com. Great bunch of women.
Another reason to promote women's cycling...
Be safe and have fun. Janis
June 29th, 2007 10:29
Hey Joy,
If your having trouble finding lots to ride in your size I would suggest going to Bike 'N Hike in Milwaukie. I recently got back on my bike a lot more and my wife (who is 5'2") decided it would be fun to ride with me. She did some net research and had a specific make and model she wanted to test ride.
They had 3 bikes of just this one make and model in two different appropriate sizes for her to test out. This was just one make and model. If she had wanted to expand that to different makes and models of bikes I'm guessing I would have been there all day while she was test riding! They also offered to ship in anything from a different store if she didn't see what she wanted or wanted to try something she didn't see on hand at the store. I've been real happy with my experience with them. The people we dealt with have been real cool with no pressure to "upgrade" to a more expensive bike or even purchase a bike at all. They have earned a loyal customer with how they treated us.