Welcome 95.5 listeners
Posted by Jonathan Maus (Editor) on July 17th, 2006 at 9:04 am
Just want to give a shout out to listeners of The Playhouse. Welcome to BikePortland.org. This is a blog that covers the cycling community here in Portland and it is open to everyone with constructive input on the issues.
If you are trying to post hateful or divisive comments about the recent situation I will not publish them.
I know you found this site because PK spent most of this morning’s show talking about our reaction to comments he made on his show on Thursday.
Unfortunately PK has chosen to spin and misrepresent the situation. This is too bad because, judging from some emails and comments I’ve received he has only made things worse.
It is also unfortunate that for some reason the podcast of the show in question has not been made available online. If the station would just make the show available in unedited form (like all other shows from that week) it would be very helpful. I called the station to ask about this and I was put on hold indefinitely so I hung up.
If I have taken PK’s comments out of context, than why not make the recording of the show available so we can listen and put this to rest once and for all?
I just want all 95.5 listeners to know that we agree cyclists should not break the rules of the road. And just FYI, cyclists are given the same traffic fines as motorists and we are often the focus of specialized enforcement crackdowns by the police.
But please realize that while there are definitely some cyclists with bad attitudes, there are also drivers with bad attitudes. Bottom line is that we all need to work together to make our roads safe. The person’s life you save may end up being your friend, co-worker, or relative.
Please be respectful and courteous out there.
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July 17th, 2006 09:25
It would be great to read a summary of what is being said on the air. (I cannot stomach to actually listen to commercial radio.)
July 17th, 2006 09:36
This is what I feared would happen…but nonetheless thanks for having the courage to confront these people…
The mainstream PDX media (The Oregonian, KGW, KOIN, KATU, FOX) is going to have to report on this issue if there is going to be any real repercussions against the radio show or the station. Have they been notified? (Probably to busy covering the plane crash). Where’s the Jonathan Nicolas column?
July 17th, 2006 09:40
I have some edited sound bites posted at:
http://web.pdx.edu/~jasun/haters/
NOTE: These sound bites are edited in the same style in which the shock jock host uses. They are not neutral and are cut and reedited as such to reflect my point of view. The best way to understand this is to listen to the whole segments.
July 17th, 2006 09:45
Sadly, the radio show will blather on for hours using this issue as filler. Really, the producer and host should simply get a bit more acquainted with the need for *less* aggro talk about cyclists/cars/traffic, and *more* talk about integrating these road entities peacefully.
Simply put, the populations of vehicles/bikes/etc don't change much when issues like this arise, but the attitudes do - all around. That radio show could be educating its audience on the details, but since its a "playhouse" of "wacky wild stuff", it choose the hack. Sad, really - just not a real community leader here.
July 17th, 2006 09:52
This is what the Playhouse IS. They are a bunch of assholes that feed on destruction. That is why so many people love their show. We are forced to be so PC every where we go, especially in Portland. P.K. is simply the devils advocate.
While nobody wants to see people get hurt, its fun to talk about all the ignorant cycleist getting run down by a car. People of this city are fed up with the bikers downtown, and I love that P.K. is verbalizing it.
July 17th, 2006 10:00
On a serious note, in addition to alerting the local media, what about getting Sam Adams involved? This is a transportation issue (hate speech as well?) and perhaps the commisioner can bring some City Hall pressure to bear on Rose City Radio and their staff. The Mayor rides also...
July 17th, 2006 10:04
what?!
July 17th, 2006 10:10
Why are you guys taking the Playhouse so seriously? I was tearing up from laughter during P.K.'s tyrade the other day when he was ripping on you bikers here in Portland. I have ridden a bike before, but I still thought it was funny.
Also realize that you hardcore bikers are not his core audience, and nothing will happen to his ratings when you protest. He appeals to people that drive to work, because they have radios.
My point is for you guys to get over your selves, and take P.K.'s comments in the context they were meant, and that was as a joke.
July 17th, 2006 10:22
Dean,
you rode your bike once. This gives you huge legs to stand on. The problem is, that his core audience might think it's funny, but they might also take him seriously. A cyclists biggest risk and fear is getting mowed down and possibly killed by a car. All we want is to feel safe while biking. This show put our safety at risk by promoting and making injury and death to cyclists seem funny and acceptable. Think about what you value. Do you value your life and choices? Consider how you would respond if someone put you, your friends, and your family at risk.
July 17th, 2006 10:40
I have a bike, but I would never ride it down town during busy traffic hours. I have enough problems getting around safely in my car. I have friends that ride their bike to work, and I tell them that they are stupid, and deserve anything that may happen to them...God forbid.
July 17th, 2006 10:45
It would be interesting to see the reaction (on both sides of the car/bike divide) if the topic of the show had been, say, foreign automakers and the host had advocated hanging out on overpasses and dropping heavy rocks onto the windshields of oncoming Hondas and Toyotas...
July 17th, 2006 10:51
Dean,
We don't worry about you. You are an adult, educated, and you understand the difference between sophomoric humor and a call to action.
What I worry about is the core Jammin' 95.5 demographic: males 16-21. Lots of idle time, inexperienced behind the wheel, not the best decision makers, cannot distinguish the line between a harmless prank and a potential traffic fatality, etc. These are the ones that PK can influence. These are the ones that think "dooring" a rider at 5 MPH is "funny". The one's that think it's hilarious to launch a half consumed Big Gulp at a cyclist doing 40 MPH downhill on N.W. Cornell. The ones that think such "pranks" will give them street cred because PK and the crew would do it.
As for context, I cannot buy that argument. Why is "joking" about running over bike riders funny? If I went on air and said, "I laugh everytime I hear the cops shot some (insert race reference here) along Interstate Ave!" I'd be facing hate speech charges. Even if I just said it as a joke - for ratings and shock value. It's the same thing. It creates an intimidating and dangerous environment for the vulnerable.
July 17th, 2006 10:51
wow! So you are too scared to ride your bike, but your fine with ridiculing people who aren't? We just learned a lot about you Dean.
July 17th, 2006 10:53
Joe you speak brilliantly, point taken. Vigilante- P.K. of the Playhouse wasn't talking about hunting down bikers to hit. He was talking about the ones that avoid the traffic laws and cut cars and trucks off. I don't feel bad when those morons get hit. Just like I wouldn't feel bad if a car ran a red and got hit.
July 17th, 2006 10:55
these are what the useless skinbags that listen to his tripe have to say. this is taken directly from his site. he needs to be fired
And now, what civilized people have to say:
# Hey playhouse! I'm am very much so on your side when it comes to the cyclists. This weekend was the STP, in which the cyclists came plowing through St. Helens. On top of all of those a-holes, we also had Warped Tour going on, causing major traffic issues. These cyclists were riding sometimes 3 wide, riding in the lanes of the highway. They were also slowing down and pacing the cars when they saw that they needed to turn. FOLLOW THE RULES OF THE ROAD!
# Hey Playhouse. Unlike those Nincom f'ing poop bike riders, I listed to the show and they are completely mis-interpreting your words. I don’t give an S if some biker not following the rules gets hit by a car, just like I don’t care if some dumbass in a car kills himself not following the rules; rock on playhouse.
# Hi PK, I wanted to comment on your 'Bikers Suck' topic from Friday and today. I just wanted to say that I hate those same bikers, the ones that have absolutely no street smarts or regards for others. I’ll bet half or more of those bikers are people that had DUI’s and can’t drive cars, therefore leaving them bitter and hateful toward people with drivers licenses. This morning there was a stupid biker in front of me in the Pearl District and of course she ran a stop sign so I blared my horn at her. Keep up the good work.
# Morning Playhouse! I wish all these holier than thou cyclists would start paying the same taxes us drivers do to use the roads, I think that until they pay a fee for their bike, and a liscense to ride on our streets and a tire tax, they have no right to protest about anything, they show no respect for larger moving vehicles on the road. Please can we have the same rules on the river apply on the road, a kayak must give right of way to a larger boat on upto tankers having true full right of way. A bike will stop easier than any car or truck, they should be the MOST cautious of all of the vehicles on the road.
# Hey Playhouse! This started in NY because of the riders who cut in between cars, cut us off from the left to make a right, drove in between cars and never gave a clue to which way they were go. Those people need to stay the hell off the road. Bikes and cars/trucks do not go together.
July 17th, 2006 10:59
Coda, my fear comes from common sense. I am also afraid to jump off cliffs or buildings without a parachute.
I beleive in the first amendment absolutely. I can't stand censorship in any form. I wouldn't be worrying about idiots that think its funny to mess with bikers any more today than before P.K.s show that was making fun of them.
I have done all that to bikers before. Eggs, paint pellets, pizza, soda, and anything that was readily available to chuck at them. I unfortunately injured the biker on an occasion, because he rode straight into a parked car. I only bring this up to prove that idiots (like I used to be) will be around reguardless of the Playhouse.
July 17th, 2006 11:09
Dean, you realize you have admitted to possible multiple felonies?
July 17th, 2006 11:09
dean, how about you come to the next protest and tell me how you feel. i'd love to here it from your face.
July 17th, 2006 11:17
Well, I did what I did. I am not proud of it, and no, I'm not afraid of admitting to it as far as legality goes. See Joe, I know what kind of a person you are when you say "next protest". It tells me that without these protests you would have no identity. I might go to some protest in the future, but I would never figure that I would be going to one.
Joe, you are the guy that shows up to a protest with your blank cardboard sign and a marker. Somebody please tell Joe how he feels.
July 17th, 2006 11:19
Dean and Joe,
I appreciate all your comments, but please try and stay on topic with the larger issues. This site is not a place for both of you to settle your personal differences.
Thank you.
July 17th, 2006 11:32
I am making my point, and these "pro-bikers" are threatening me instead of having a conversation with me. No, I don't feel threatented, but that is what they are resorting to.
I haven't threatened anyone, but I have called out certain people that did threaten me.
Back on topic...you people on bikes don't pay for registration, or any kind of tire tax. Hell, you don't even need to be liscensed to ride along vehicles that need ALL of the above, so yes, these roads do belong to the cars and trucks. I know under Oregon law people on bikes are given certain rights, but that all goes out the window when a truck is sucking you into his wheel well.
July 17th, 2006 11:42
Dean says
"He was talking about the ones that avoid the traffic laws and cut cars and trucks off. I don’t feel bad when those morons get hit."
Problem is that most people don't know bike laws at all. Just see the above person who says they were "in the lanes of traffic.". Well they can occupy a lane in traffic by law. People think they know trafiic laws but they don't. It's sad but some cops don't know the traffic laws completely that they enforce.
The people who would listen to this type of show aren't smart enough to know the laws, and think because they feel someone else is doing something wrong, they are ok to not feel bad about hitting them.
It is fairly obvious that some of the people coming by here now are show members or listeners.
Dean says that without protests, you would have no identity. Same goes for him throwing things to feel superior. He does so to have an identity above the loser he is. he's just the bully. If he's not afraid to say so for legality reasons, he should state his name then. It is truly idiots like him (as he says) that will do things just to fuel himself and he radio hosts.
Still waiting for the podcasts you losers.
July 17th, 2006 11:45
Dean,
You seem to be suffering under the same delusion Lars and P.K. share that roads are paid for entirely by registration and auto-related taxes. That is simply not true and has not ever been. To put roads in this country into historical context, one would actually have to admit the League of American Wheelmen (a bicycling advocacy organization) were instrumental in the creation of paved roads, long before autos were ever commonplace.
July 17th, 2006 11:50
Well Jeremy, welcome to the 21st century. Bikes are now just in the way in congested areas like downtown Portland. Go bike in the mountains, and other places that are out of the way. I don't want to hear the arguement about worse traffic if all the byciclist drove cars. I would rather they were in cars moving with traffic, than in the way.
Everyone that pays taxes in Oregon are paying some money towards the roads. I am just saying, until bikers are held to a similar standard as far as registration and liscensing, stay the hell out of our way.
July 17th, 2006 11:52
Feel free to get your state to make us have a license to ride on roads. Fine by me. Everyone gets a license or state id card whether or not they own and drive a car. The id peoples money doesn't go magically to sidewalks. Its DMV money that is spent on roads, whether or not those id people like it. I don't know how your tire tax works where you are, so I can't comment on that.
If you feel that bikes are not allowed on roads, well that doesn't mean a thing. We live in a democratic country, there is a process to change laws. Get it on a ballot and let the people decide. Don't complain, do something about it.
July 17th, 2006 11:55
I tried to tell you this was all a gig, and now the gig has gotten even bigger. Heck I'm an avid cyclist, commute to work, race, blah blah blah, but at this point I'm starting to find this whole thing pretty entertaining....
If the radio management was really worried about what he was saying do you think he would have gone on this morning with the gig again??
I just hope I don't end up with a bottle chucked at me while I'm riding because of this.....
I guess that's everyone's point.
July 17th, 2006 11:58
i'm sorry jonathan.
July 17th, 2006 12:00
i think dean, that you are missing some things brought up by other posters. #1 is that as a cyclist i'm legally entitled to ride in the street, and #2 is that everyone pays for the roads. not just you and other car owners. the roads are not yours.
on a side note regarding deans theory of traffic: every afternoon on my way to work i bike across skidmore, over I-5. and every day cars are just SITTING on the interstate. i can't figure it out. i mean, i don't see any cyclists on I-5 so i don't really understand what the hold up could be. maybe there are some folks on bikes up by jantzen beach and down by the rose quarter, on the interstate, out of my range of view. it's the only thing i can figure...why else would traffic just stop?
July 17th, 2006 12:00
Oh, Dean, you admit there is an argument about space, yet you don't want to hear about it?
FYI, when I am riding, any violation I am stopped for is fined the same amount the infraction would have cost had I been in a car AND it will appear on my DMV record.
So what are we down to now, just registration? How much would you like me to pay to register my bike?
July 17th, 2006 12:00
On topic? You are vastly legally misinformed, sir. Roads are for people, and the vehicles that they choose are always in a balancing act of suggestions, best practices, and laws. "Taxes" is off the table, a red-herring.
I'm tempted to see what's it's like when i toss a paint balloon at someone for dropping their cigarette butt on the ground. Sound similar to vigilatte policing of bikers? Where should we stop this discussion? Should I be happy when a smoker dies of lung cancer, laughing? How about when an overweight person has health problems? When a car accident happens and there is anyone to "blame"? Is it OK to laugh if nobody dies? One drifts into the innane chasing these debates.
Overall, nobody is "innocent", nobody should advocate violence, nobody should enforce their pet-peeve with harassment, and nobody should laugh at injury. In the world today, the big "trouble" with bikers ranks pretty low on the issues one could be upset with. Perhaps we are too complacent, too hurried, to see the need for accepting all people, in all their modes of transport - and respect for the laws integrating them. Bikers are no exception, they're just another segment of the same population as drivers.
Dean, you have simply fallen for an old shock jock trick: Draw a scenario and invite people to bicker about it, gathering comfort in numbers (not logic). Factual debate is dropped, preferred to aggro "jokey" radio. Please...it's like listening to children complaining about petty issues of grade school. Except, at least there we have hope they will grow out of it.
July 17th, 2006 12:01
I'm in Portland, it's in the name of the freaking website. I don't want bikers to have ID, I want them to have a liscense, and registration. I want them to do what we, drivers have to do to legally be on the road.
July 17th, 2006 12:07
Jim, I think it's funny to make fun of situations that would usually piss me off. Yes joking about accidentally running down a biker when they are breaking the law is totally funny to me. Joking about how smokers will die of cancer is funny to me, and so on.
Why can't I respect all types of people with all forms of transpertation? Because you people on bikes are totally in the way half the time doing whatever you want. My first thought is to run you over. That doesn't mean I would do it, it's just funny to think about.
July 17th, 2006 12:07
Well Dean, Portland is the name on the website, so I must have been magically transported to Portland suddenly. The net is bigger than Portland. I live in LA. If you want bikers to have a specific license and registration, then you need to learn how to get it on a ballot for the public to decide on. I want a toilet made of solid gold, but its just not gonna happen unless i find a way to get one. If you don't try to change things that you don't like, then you can't complain about it. Stop complaining and get it on a ballot.
July 17th, 2006 12:11
I have no problem "almost" running down bikers, but you guys need to quit your whining when drivers make fun of running you over.
July 17th, 2006 12:12
You have anger management issues there Dean. Someone legally in your lane is legal. If you want to mow them down, you clearly have issues. I don't mow people down for walking in the street after the green light has changed and they haven't made it across completely yet. I don't find it funny or think about doing it like you would.
Your idea of breaking the law seems distorted. It seems to you any cyclist in the road is breaking the law.
July 17th, 2006 12:17
No, my brother rides his bike to work every day so I don't have anything against bikers. I just don't want to go 15 to 20 MPH behind some dumb ass that is hogging the lane and impeding my lane.
Yes, I have a fun sense of humor, but no I don't have issues.
July 17th, 2006 12:24
So how much humor will you have if some listener from this show does something (throws something, etc) to your brother. Or if your brother gets run over by someone, and you hear the other party laugh, joke, or say he was in my lane. Would it be funny if in a strange twist you yourself happened to run over your brother on his bike. Or when its close to home, its not funny or acceptable then only.
July 17th, 2006 12:27
Dean,
I think you may be generalizing all bikers in the same mistake that bikers sometimes do with drivers.
Just because someone chose to ride doesn't erase their invidiual identity. There are indeed crazy bikers and drivers, callous and reckless.
Does this mean I deserve getting shot by a paintball gun when riding because an under-educated driver equates me with any and all bikers around town? Nope.
This is the fallacy of transport: The the little boxes with people inside are still individuals, and folks on bikes are still individuals. Every situation is different, by getting angry at "the demographic" you smear the issues to the point of nullifying it.
Every group is guilty of it, including the SHIFT mailing list, for example. There too it is usually pandering to the audience. However, please keep in mind that from one biker to the next (regardless of dress), there is a new situation.
With that, be SURE to read up on OR law regarding cycling in lanes. It may surprise you, and you may be shocked by the number of people advocating even *more* cycling leeway on the roads. Like rolling stop signs, cutting past cars at a light, taking the lane, riding diagonally across an intersections, etc. Check it out, and why things have evolved this way. You will surely have an epiphany, if your posts indicate your education about it currently.
July 17th, 2006 12:30
Dean -
1. Most cyclists also own a car. When cyclists own a car and don't use it, they are subsidizing the roads.
2. Chucking things at people is wrong, period. It can also be construed as assault under most states' statutes.
3. If it's funny to think about assaulting someone with your vehicle, or others doing the same - seek professional counseling. You have fallen victim to the American glorification of violence as a solution, and you need help. Violence is not funny. Violence is not legal.
4. Cars need to learn to share the road with cyclists. Cars share the road with horse-drawn vehicles just fine. A horse-drawn carriage is slower than a bicycle and frequently found downtown. I don't see people saying that hitting them is funny. Cops in Portland sometimes ride horses, and they frequently break traffic laws. I don't see anyone advocating hitting a cop on a horse with their cars, or thinking that THAT's funny.
5. Most downtown cyclists are as fast as or faster than cars when downtown - especially the bike messengers. I'm 240 pounds and I can out-accelerate cars downtown. The downtown lights are timed for 15mph - well within the range of cyclists. The problem downtown is that there is very little space to squeeze all those cars and cyclists into. If the 6,000 or so cyclists who commute downtown in the morning (some say more) all drove cars, that would make the situation A LOT worse. If we could get some of the 40,000+ cars that commute downtown each morning to shift to bikes, the situation would get a lot better in terms of speed and parking - so long as everyone learns to share the road.
6. For the record, a lot of us on this site are just commuters, not "hard core cyclists". Not all of us are Chunkers, or Zoobombers, or members of PUMP, Shift! or the BTA.
July 17th, 2006 12:30
Flame war! Flame war!!
Dean, stop being an ass. You're proving the point of everyone who regularly reads this site. That point is that car drivers are selfish and self-absorbed, and when presented with a sticky situation, will always act like a jackass. Way to go.
July 17th, 2006 12:32
One more note: How do you think drivers would react if I started carrying D-cell batteries on my bike and throwing them at the cars that try to run me over? Violence only escalates violence. We not only shouldn't give into those urges, we should also discourage violence as a solution whenever possible.
July 17th, 2006 12:37
Here's a problem Dean: you keep mentioning that you're annoyed with bicyclists clogging the streets of downtown Portland - going too slow. You say you don't want to be stuck going 15 to 20 mph. Well, the speed limit downtown is only 12 mph. When I'm riding my bike downtown it's the cars slowing me down. There are too many of them and they are in my way and in each other's way.
Plus, you, like most other anti-bike folks, seem to ignore arguments that disprove your opinions. You seem to find it easier to stick your fingers in your ears and yell "nah nah nah nah" when someone points out that bicyclists do pay for their fair share of the road, or how about Chris' post pointing out that traffic jams on the interstate are caused by the number of cars on the road, not by anyone else? You seem to ignore these points.
I also find it interesting how you keep contradicting yourself. "my brother rides his bike to work every day so I don’t have anything against bikers", but in the next sentence call bicyclist dumb asses. I'd say that would mean you do have something against bicyclist. or in your earlier post when you state "I have friends that ride their bike to work, and I tell them that they are stupid, and deserve anything that may happen to them…God forbid." They deserve anything that would happen to them, but "god forbid" it should actually happen...huh? You go through some amazing mental gymnastics to keep blindly having your point of view without confronting the facts.
*A sentence here has been edited. I repeat, I will not tolerate antagonism. Please resist the temptation to call people names...it adds nothing of value whatsoever to the conversation.*
July 17th, 2006 12:42
Well, D-Cell batteries are pretty expensive these days, and if you are in the right and the car almost runs you over I say go for it. I am not talking about how funny it is to run over people on bikes. I am talking about these bikers that don't follow any rules, and create accidents or near accidents. I don't feel bad when they get injured. As bike riders, I would think that you would be upset at these other bikers that tarnish the rest of you.
July 17th, 2006 12:43
What the living hell is a flame war? Is that some gay thing?
July 17th, 2006 12:43
I'm going on lunch, but I will be back on in a bit. :)
July 17th, 2006 12:46
And by throwing the battery at the car, it will only make things worse. They will take out further aggression on other cyclist. If you have a problem with cyclists, you need to handle it legally and through channels that are appropriate. Just as a cyclist would do also. I don tell cyclist doing things in the wrong that they are doing so. I know others do too.
Why don't you try telling other cagers like the Playhouse people that what they do is wrong instead of continually carrying on.
July 17th, 2006 12:48
Dean,
Enough already, please. You've made your points. Let's try and keep these comments useful to everyone.
And in response to your quote:
"As bike riders, I would think that you would be upset at these other bikers that tarnish the rest of you."
We are. This has been a topic of frequent discussion on this site. The bike community works very hard to educate cyclists to be responsible road users. I only hope that motorists feel the same obligation to educate other motorists.
July 17th, 2006 12:49
Flame war is a age-old term for "verbal bickering" - using degrading into name-calling and threats.
I'd much rather think of this as an education process. We're here to help you Dean - help you understand how seriously deadly drivers are to bikers, and thus how sensitive we are to waves of public sentiment.
The positives far outweigh the negatives when biking, almost all the time. I'd love you to help champion biking as best option for transportation, even if you don't bike yourself. Think of it as "less cars on the road" in front of you.
July 17th, 2006 13:00
I don't live in Portland and have never heard the Playhouse, but it sound slike shock jock radio, being outrageous to get ratings...
IMO, ignore the DJ and the show and he will move on to another interest group for baiting and taunting...
As much of a biker as I am, and as pro-biking as I am, I have to say the expressions of outrage and calls for others to defend the biking community (call the oregonian and sam Adams?) make the biking community seem humorless and thin skinned...
calm down, ingore the loonies and stay safe...
July 17th, 2006 13:00
Eric - that was exactly my point in the post. Violence begets further violence, usually escalated.
Dean - I *am* upset at bikers that make things difficult for me by not following the rules of the road. I've made a number of comments in the past to that effect, as have others on this site. Unfortunately, I can't control the actions of others, I can only control my own, and occasionally I'm able to ask others to obey the laws. Motorists by far are less attentive than cyclists. Cyclists have to keep a constant watch for road debris and hazards that cars may not even see.
Oh, and to the upthread post about the guy complaining about the StP'ers - I think I saw that guy - he might have been the one honking every 10 seconds while driving in the right lane when cyclists 100 yards or more ahead of him were edging into the lane to pass slower cyclists - totally legal under ORS814.430. The lane left of him was clear and he could have gotten over at any time, but he chose not to. It was very different from Washington, where the motorists seemed to have more respect and tolerance for the cyclists.
July 17th, 2006 13:11
The station actually has a listing for the 2006 Livestrong Challenge on their calendar.
http://www.jamminfm.com/caldetl.aspx?ID=3394&dt=7/30/2006&v=m
They also give a contact at the Lance Armstrong Foundation:
Contact: Allison Wright
512-279-8356
allison.wright@laf.org
Another place where pressure might be brought to bear...
July 17th, 2006 13:25
It's just a generic event listing - I went over to the livestrong.org website and checked the page for the Portland event and Jammin' 95.5 is not one of the four official radio sponsors.
July 17th, 2006 13:31
Oh great, another opportunity to trot out the old "who pays for roads" info, for those who still believe that "cyclists don't pay their way".
The transportation infrastructure is paid for mostly from a combination of taxes and grants. Fees, such as for a driver's license or to register an automobile, tend to only cover the cost of administering the fee (for example, the cost of running and staffing a DMV office) and therefore don't make a substantial contribution.
Fuel taxes account for a small part of the overall cost contribution, and are concentrated more on the construction and maintenance of highways.
Most of the funds for transportation infrastructure come ultimately from payroll and property taxes. Therefore, any cyclist who is not jobless and homeless contributes. Depending on how much infrastrucure a cyclist uses and how much that cyclist pays in taxes, they may subsidize the infrastructure for automobile drivers, rather than the other way around. Likely, almost any cyclist who does not bike for example between Portland - Wilsonville for work, subsidizes motorists since cyclists tend not to use the infrastructure most supported by fuel tax and also pay about the same in taxes. I wish there was an analysis that was specific to Oregon that was as comprehensive as this one by Victoria Transport Policy Institute, note the example of a cyclist / motorist comparison at Table 4, pg. 10:
www.vtpi.org/whoserd.pdf
When I researched the cost / funding breakdown, I found many studies that showed that gas would cost an extra two to SEVEN dollars per gallon if ALL of the costs of transportation infrastructure were carried by gas tax. The amount depended on what "costs" were included, for example the cost of having US military support to defend pipelines or tax breaks for energy companies.
Some resources:
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/ohim/hs03/htm/hf10.htm
http://www.commissionersam.com/sam_adams/files/pdot_budget_graphs_figures.pdf
July 17th, 2006 13:38
Dean, you must be new to this thing called "The Internet"... "flame war" is a term for bickering between individuals online, usually vitriolic and involving put-downs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_war
This post I'm making now could be termed a "flame", since I'm calling you out on acting so smart but not knowing this very common Internet term.
Also, congatulations on becoming the new reigning champion of excessive posting on bikeportland.org. I don't think anyone to this point can compete with you for posts-per-hour, and as far as I know nobody has ever posted that they're going to lunch and will be back in a bit.
July 17th, 2006 14:00
It seems like we are all refering to the minority on both sides. only a small percentage of bikers break laws, don't pay attention, and cause road congestion. Only a small percentage of drivers break laws, don't pay attention and cause road congestion. These people drive us all crazy. How do we reach both bikers and drivers to make this situation better? Definetly not by promoting violence against either road user. Also, as posted above, there isn't a hard line. Most bikers drive and many drivers bike. Because I bike, I understand the biker's needs and frustrations. Also, because I drive, I understand the drivers needs and frustrations. Portland is a great biking city, I think that if more drivers occasionally biked there would be a better understanding and tolerance for bikers. Maybe the solution is to be more active about getting more people out of their cars and onto bikes. We gain understanding by experience. Maybe we should help the playhouse get on their bikes. Most of us that have made the switch love it and prefer to navigate the city by bike. As we have learned many drivers find biking in downtown too risky and others might think it is too inconvenient. Maybe this protest could transform to a gigantic shift to bikes educational/recruiting event.
July 17th, 2006 14:23
If all you people have a problem with those idiot bike riders, then why would you have a problem with us (the car drivers) laughing about running one over when they cut us off? I understand that some of you might be spinless liberals, but where is your sense of humor?
July 17th, 2006 14:26
this man is a genius.
dean for president.
July 17th, 2006 14:30
Dean,
You're missing the point.
I wish you'd realize that we care for human life and that it's never funny when someone dies, no matter who they are or what they've done.
Your insensitivity is exactly why we we're not laughing at this.
July 17th, 2006 14:31
bEcause you don't obviously know the bike laws, and to you all cyclist in your way are the same. We ride, we know the laws. So we can tell the cyclists in the wrong.
When you get cut off by a car or a cyclist, that isn't automatically someone in the wrong. People do cut others off accidentally to avoid a dangerous situation. Do they deserve to die because others feel they are wrong, no.
July 17th, 2006 14:38
Because they are like an obnoxious little brother, they might bug us, we wish they would straighten up, but that doesn't mean we want them dead. It isn't funny to promote violence against anybody, and these so called "Idiot" bikers don't ride around with special tags. As we've said before, the broadcast put all bikers in danger. There are a lot of Idiot drivers too, I don't laugh when someone dies in a car accident, I could be next. I think the big problem is that the playhouse singled out one group of people and made it sound like a great idea to harrass them.
July 17th, 2006 14:39
My point is being missed as well. Are you telling me that you have never sat around with your fellow bikers talking about doing things to those A-Holes in cars that cut you off, honk at you, or throw things at you? You have never joked about doing ANYTHING to them? I don't want anyone to die, that is why they call it "joking".
IMO any of you that go after the Playhouse, or his employers are a bunch whiney, spineless pussies. I would bet that most of you are liberals, Dem's, or even both. I thought the freedom of speech was so damn important. Well, as it turns out, it is important to you as long as you agree with it. If what P.K. said causes any injury to you or your fellow bikers, then I will feel bad for you.
I just got such a good laugh from that segment of the show. They were talking about having a biker caught up in your wheel well as you pull up to work. No, I would never actually laugh at that if it really happened, but come on, that is funny.
July 17th, 2006 14:54
If you read some of the earlier postings, it already has. Twice since the show. One women harrassed by a car full of boys, another biker nearly ran off the road by an aggressive driver late at night. Not that this hasn't happened before, only that twice in three days is not the norm.
July 17th, 2006 15:35
Dean
I guess the humor is lost on us who've actually buried friends that have been hit and killed, accidentally or intentionally. Perhaps your point is analogous to joking about rating 1..10 the dives people took from the WTC during 911, like the Olympics? Sound like a hoot? Too PC? The term is "socially conscious" and it means you know what environment you're speaking in.
Fact is, a biker's environment is a little took close to the situation. Bikers dodge angry drivers every day. Joking about it (and having the moron listeners mimic such jokes) is going to raise a few hackles. You have to understand this.
As for the name calling, you can take that back to the schoolyard. Political leanings are irrelevant (and all over the map, just like any other population in Portland) so you please cut that line of spew.
For the most part, bikers would probably enjoy enjoying a beer and a laugh with you on just about any topic. Give it a shot.
July 17th, 2006 15:44
Jim, don't try to act like you were in Nam and had to bury friends. Don't act like you have had even one friend buried because he was hit on a bike. By implying so you make any point you make useless after that.
Making light of some A-Hole that cuts you off in traffic, and joking about an actual victim of terrorists are two completely different things.
I know I could share a beer and some laughs with bikers. My brother is into that scene, and so are his friends. I told him about the show today, and all you whiney bitches and he agreed with me. He told me what dorks you guys were for trying to band together for some crappy protest. These are his words not mine.
July 17th, 2006 15:59
Someone said cyclists are "thin skinned." Hmmm. Yes, we are, compared to a steel-skinned motor vehicle.
I have travelled in countries where cyclists and pedestrians have no rights on the road. I can guarantee none of you want to let our road environment move one degree in that direction.
Some time back I was hit while cycling by an idiot in a car. He stopped at a stop sign, looked right at me, then took off straight at me and knocked me across the street. He told the cop it was not his fault, that since I saw him coming at me it was my fault to not get out of his way. The cop seemed to agree with him and no citation was made.
July 17th, 2006 16:05
It's easy to see that anything written here that is based on logic is going to go completely over Dean's head... maybe if we just ignored him he'll tire of the forum? What in hell does 'Nam have to do with our killed cyclist friends (one friend of mine has had THREE friends who have been on bikes and killed by motorists, I have a friend and a couple of acquaintances, etc.)? Only Dean knows.
July 17th, 2006 17:55
Cars: the number one killer of people less than 38 years old
July 17th, 2006 21:21
Dean,
The reason why I don't think death is funny is because I was taught such by priests and nuns of the Roman Catholic Church.
I cannot help but try to view the situation as Sister Margaret Mary, my grade school principal would have and wonder what Jesus and Our Lady thinks about your sense of humor. Would they be laughing at the idea of a human being crushed in the wheel well of your vehicle? Not by any standard I was taught in my 12 years of extremely conservative, Catholic education.
Call that a liberal sentiment typical of a Democrat, sir, I dare you.
July 18th, 2006 00:26
Hey dean, you know how PK told any cyclist to come and talk to him about it on monday if it was such a problem, a friend and I went up there and was listening to the show through my phone, two people from the station came out and talked to us but before that he had said that a security gaurd had come out and told us to leave. not true. we were sitting at a picnic table they had there drinking some water and waiting to see if anyone else would come, and had only talked to one lady that had pulled up and got out of her car. But when we had told the people/aggreed to go talk to him he had then said forget it I don't even want to bother with them I don't have to talk to them. when he was the one that invited us to. he was calling us hippies and so on. which I'm very far from. If he has the free speech to bash on bikers on the air and then turns down his invite for us to talk, not cool.
also I was one of those people that as above mentioned almost got pushed into parked cars and pushed off the road, and mind you it was about 145-2 am down a not very large scale street and followed at that. and the person who was driving had to have been at the most 23 and was listening to the music played on 95.5, coincidence?
with that comes also that a lot of people are really influenced by the "media" and will take these things seriously even if it was meant as a joke, look at a bigger picture dean here's a good scinereo (sp?)
someone sees a cyclist, they get all huffy puffy at them for taking up "their" lane and decides to run them off the road in the blindness of all this anger while he's trying to do that say the cyclist and the driver both get up on the sidewalk but yet not noticing an innocent pedestrian in the haps, and the driver hits the pedestrian instead of his main target but then to get away from the scene of crime peels back out into the lane swerving off the sidewalk and sidesiping another car causing a crash.
also the lanes aren't yours like said go read up on the bike laws, we're treated the same as cars when fined. I had a friend fined $200 and something dollars for going through a stop sign. you say it is also harder for cars to stop when they have the anti lock disk brakes and what not that most car companies pride to being able to "stop on a dime." if a bike has enough momentum going down a hill especially if they're riding a fixie they're going to have a lot more trouble stopping than a car does. I also know this because I zoobomb too. stopping on a bike going 30-40 something mph is a huge pain.
another thing, if you don't like these tire and road taxes then bike. It comes down to this also, if you own a house you have to pay taxes for public schools even if you don't have any kids. is that fair? you chose those taxes when you chose to drive.
my roommate is from seattle and has had a lot of messed up things happen to him while riding, but we don't sit at home and talk crap about how we hate all people in cars and plot things to do to them. a good majority of the drivers know and are considerate of letting bikes over into other lanes to turn or what not. and if it's communicated well to the drivers by us signaling or whatever then great. but what slows us down is when there's not and the drivers don't think we have that right to get over.
I come from vegas and drove out there, when I moved here and drove a little bit at first it wasn't worth it to me at all so I did get a bike and it's saved me tons of money and saves the planet, yah I sound like a hippy there but with the way things are going these days that should be a big concern. Not only am I getting where I need to go but I'm staying healthy doing it. I know in a car from my work downtown to home off of 25th and belmont takes like 15 minutes I can make it just as fast on a bike with no problem.
but just consider this dean yah there's a few bad bikers out there just like there's a few to many bad drivers but you can't turn those few into the whole.
also about the whole playhouse crew I guess the owner or boss called in and is making them all bike to work tomorrow. that shall be fun hopefully they don't just use trimet to get there and drop them off on the corner cause the hills in SW where they're at off of corbett and bancrofft are pretty insane I'd like to see them do it. they'll probably park a couple blocks away and pull out their bikes and act like they rode them the whole way.
another little interesting fact, appearently three of the playhouse crew live in the same house together have three different cars and all take their own cars to work cause it's too much of an inconvienance to leave at the same time and car pool. that's really helping things out!
July 18th, 2006 04:25
All recordings are made available from the Playhouse if you have iTunes. Podcasts from each day are put up for all to freely download and listen to.
July 18th, 2006 10:35
Just a thought: If everyone rushes to download their cycling-related podcasts, this will only encourage the radio station - any publicity is good publicity. The really sad thing is that this whole controversy had problaby boosted their ratings. What a "MADE FOR TV" world we live in... sigh... I need to go get on my bike and blow off some steam! :-)
July 18th, 2006 12:28
It definitely sucks that someone in mass media would advocate harm to anyone; especially cyclists. NOT TO WORRY, some lawyers actually do good work.
Specifically, there are a lot of cases where people have sued radio stations EVEN when the actual person who caused the harm was NOT the radio station itself. Radio stations normally hide behind the First Amendment but that protection ends where a radio station causes a foreseeable risk of harm.
For example, in Weirum v. RKO General, Inc., 15 Cal.3d 40, 539 P.2d 36, 123 Cal.Rptr. 468 (1975), a radio station was held liable when listeners following a disc jockey caused a fatal automobile accident because the victim was exposed to a foreseeable risk of harm.
Normally foreseability is a tricky question of law and fact BUT not when someone calls for specific action, i.e. "throw bottles at bicycle riders" OR "open car doors in front of cyclists".
I hope no cyclists get hurt but if they do I hope the cyclist knows about the radio stations actions, and hold them accountable. I am all for free speech but not when that speech advocates for immediate harm to other individuals. My law school professor used to say, "your rights ends where my nose begins". (although this is unfair to those of us with big honkers, not a bad way to view things).
July 18th, 2006 12:47
Dean, this city is actually fed up with ignorant drivers (such as you), and we are doing the best we can to minimize the problem. Of course it pisses some people off, but ignorance shouldn't be painless, anyways. You guys polute our air, make noise, occupy public space just storing your mettalic crap, create traffic jams and are responsible for inumerous deaths and injuries all over the world, and that's because you are so ignorant and proud of it. You laugh when people are encouraging you to stay ignorant, you get angry when someone exposes the damage your ignorance causes to our society. So we are saying "enough!", because we live in the 21st century and can't wait anymore to have our lives, air, space out of the hands of irresponsible and lazy ignorants.
Personally, I'm not afraid of your kind, even though I understand the threat you are to public safety. I am very aware of my environment so to be able to predict most of your stupid actions, but I want to be able to be more relaxed out there. I want the whole society to be able to move freely and relaxed. But I am not so concerned, anyways, because you species is in the process of extinction. In your ignorance, you are creating a world that is self-destroying, and we are already living in the new, creative and free world we are building. Either you like it or not.
July 18th, 2006 18:43
Please you people are blowing this out of proportion. No one outside of bikeportland have shown even a tiny bit of anger about this issue. Even bicyclists only got angry after it was reported on this site. Isn't it odd no one other than lanette felt outraged at the broadcast? But once she brought it here it escalated greatly. Saying that PK put your safety at risk is crap he didn't do anything like that. I bike myself but only learned of your site from the playhouse, you people need to calm down and realise that you are overracting.
July 18th, 2006 19:07
John, I disagree that they are blowing this out of proportion. saying that people should be harmed is serious. it is against FCC regulations and it is the same as inciting violence and encourging attacks on a community.
This is my first time on bikeportland.org and I am extremely outraged.
July 18th, 2006 19:11
Either way the majority of people don't have a problem it seems to be a small group of people.
July 18th, 2006 19:15
And if what they did was blantly against FCC regulations they should get a fine but talking about getting them kicked off the air is BS, as is suing them.
July 18th, 2006 20:01
"Either way the majority of people don’t have a problem it seems to be a small group of people."
Well, John. You probably have some knowledge in history, so you know that the Holocaust was not a problem for the majority of German people back then. Racism and genocide weren't a problem at all for the majority of the colonizers settling in this continent. Being part of an ignorant majority doesn't make you right. And, speaking of majorities, I know that most of people would feel the same as this "small group of people" if they got educated and informed correctly about what kind of violence is being promoted on the radio. Overreacting? For chrissake, do you realize that people are actually killed all the time just because our culture accepts as normal to be angry because someone moves slowly or differently than a car? Of course, most of the deaths aren't actually a direct reaction to a situation (not so many people are run over because they are going slow), but they are caused by the mentality of "if someone is stupid and irritating enough to be on my way when I'm driving fast, then they deserve to die".
One problem with the "majority" of people is that they (John included) believe in the sanctity of mainstream media. If something is told them by community members, they considered it BS (and if these comunity members insist they have a point, they are blowing things out of proportion), while everything that comes from TV, radio (not comunity radios, bunch of hippies!) or "respectable" papers is either true or a healthy joke.
As I said earlier, we are already building this new world, and our opinion is becoming mainstream, but the funny part is this new mainstream culture doesn't have room for people who just shout "Hurrah!" without critical points of view, so, if you don't want to be marginalized, you rather start listening to what those "small voices" out there have to say and form your own opinions about the world, instead of just praizing the reason of "the majority".
July 18th, 2006 20:57
The fact that you equated the holocaust to this disgusts me. It shows you are blowing this out of proportion and that is a slap to the face of everyone who went through the holocaust, I'm not even gonna debate you on the rest because you showed you ignorance, you should feel ashamed
July 18th, 2006 21:06
Actually, he said being a part of the majority isn't always being right (as in correct) and gave two examples. It's called good writing and effectively making a point as is not, as you suggest, hyperbole (look it up). Our education system has failed you, my friend, as you cannot read the context of his comment.
By the way, did you know that the ability to read and interpret written pieces is the single greatest indicator of success on the Oregon CIM Standard tests? It's not parents' education, income, race, ethnicity, age, or factual content knowledge (as gauged by number of years studying a particular subject). Just your ability to read and interpret. Weird.
July 18th, 2006 21:08
Oh, yeah.
The fact that you equated the holocaust to this disgusts me. It shows you are blowing this out of proportion and that is a slap to the face of everyone who went through the holocaust, I’m not even gonna debate you on the rest because you showed you[r] ignorance, you should feel ashamed[.]
And I do. ;-)
July 19th, 2006 10:25
John - "No one outside of bikeportland have shown even a tiny bit of anger about this issue" ARE YOU KIDDING ME??
I am in Charlotte, NC and I read about this outrage on TWO of our local cyclists forums - tarheeltrailblazers.com and bikepasa.com. MANY PEOPLE outside of Portland are angry about this. And many more would be, if they knew, trust me on that one.
July 19th, 2006 13:46
Playhouse is also a nationally syndicated broadcast across the US. I think a dozen stations pick them up.
July 19th, 2006 23:45
I think that someone already kind of touched on the subject of cars going too slow in Down town. As a 3 season bike rider I know for a fact that I can get around town miles incredibly faster on my bike, than in a car. My old commute actually DOUBLED when I went by car.
Also, if you notice the traffic lights in EVERY downtown intersection, they go green in a sequence. That sequence keeps traffic moving at about 15 miles an hour. Try it next time you are driving down town. Keep the speed at 15, and if there is no back up, you can just cruise right along through town...I am sure one of our local urban planners could tell more about PDX traffic lights,but that has been my experience...
On an anecdotal level about general ignorance of traffic laws, any time I was hit, [yes, three times, I do a lot of riding] it was by an oblivious driver, cutting across a bike lane. The last time I had a run in with a car, I was coming off the broadway bridge, heading east, and doing about 20mph, when someone in a large vehicle just decided to turn right across the bikelane. I hit my brakes, and still bashed my head against her passenger door, and sent my front wheel out of true...She then proceded to scream at me that she had right of way. So yeah, maybe some bicycle safety questions on the drivers test?
Lastly, I'd like to know specifically what all these so called "crazed" bicyclists are doing that is so horrible on the roads. It makes me crazy to see a bicycle on the sidewalk, or going the wrong way on a street, but to be honest, when I see someone doing that, are usually missing a helmet, or a light, have a radio taped to their handlebars, or give off other clues that maybe they don't ride all that much. I have really not seen this so called crazed bike behavior, and I commute by bike or car every day...just want to know what I am missing out on...