Electric bikes have the potential to radically transform American transportation culture in a very positive way. Despite this, and in contrast to how our society and systems treat electric cars, it often feels like e-bikes can’t catch a break.
A few examples: We have vast federal and state purchase incentives programs for e-cars, but none for e-bikes. We limit the speed of e-bikes, while e-cars — even though their potential for harm is much greater — are gleefully sold with “insane mode” acceleration and absurdly high speeds.
And in the past few weeks I’ve been contacted by two readers with stories about how the system is working against them when it comes to choosing to ride an e-bike. One of them was told they cannot park their e-bike at work; the other watched as a TriMet transit officer booted two e-bike riders off a MAX train because the bikes weren’t on designated bike hooks.
I looked into both situations and here’s what I found out.
Last week a reader messaged BikePortland on Instagram:
“This morning on the MAX going out to Hillsboro some TriMet guy got on to check tickets. On his way out he told two guys with e-bikes they weren’t allowed to have them on the train because they couldn’t hang them!? I was shook.
Just felt ridiculous TriMet would deny someone bring their bike on board because their tires were “too big” it’s not even prohibited on their website, which that guy said it was. I’ve never seen anyone kicked off the MAX for having an e-bike! It wasn’t that packed at all.”
This was very disappointing to hear because the combination of e-bikes and light rail is a powerful tool that can expand non-driving possibilities for many folks in our region. I reached out to TriMet to learn more.
According to TriMet Public Information Officer Tyler Graf, e-bikes with sealed battery compartments are allowed on MAX trains. What if someone can’t lift their e-bike onto a hook? Graf said hanging bikes on hooks is the preferred option. “However, we know e-bikes can be heavy, and it may be difficult or dangerous to lift them up and down,” he said. “Riders are allowed to stand with their bikes, but they should not block doors or aisles,” Graf clarified.
In short, your bike should never create an accessibility problem for other riders. TriMet’s rules for riding state, “If you have a bag or bike, make sure it’s not blocking the aisle or doorway.” And Graf added that people should be mindful of these rules because TriMet’s recent enforcement increase includes bicycles on trains as, “an area of extra focus.”
As for the specific case of telling two e-bike riders to disembark, Graf said these “Customer Safety Supervisors” are taking an education-first approach whenever possible. He also shared that the size and type of someone’s bike also comes into play in how enforcement decisions are made: “Bikes with oversized wheels, trailers or internal combustion engines are not allowed at all. Not only is it impossible to hang these types of vehicles from the bike hooks, they pose a danger if the train has to stop suddenly and they’re thrown forward.”
(On a related note, TriMet’s administrative rules state, “Only conventional single seat, two-wheeled bicycles, folding bicycles, and recumbent and electric bicycles the size of a standard bicycle” are allowed on their vehicles. “Bicycles with oversized wheels, tandems, three or more wheels, trailers, or internal combustion engine-powered bicycles are not allowed.”)
To summarize: Try to store your bike on a hook. If you can’t do that, make sure you and your bike have a small footprint and allow easy access to priority seating areas. I met a man on MAX a few days ago with a 20-inch wheeled, folding, fat tire e-bike (above). He carried his own bungee cord to strap the wheel to the hook and folded the handlebars in to keep them from snagging other riders near the door. He knows that if people are impeded or have to step over a bike for any reason, a rider could be asked to leave the train. See TriMet’s Bikes on MAX website and their administrative rules for “Transport of Bicycles on District Transit System (August 2022)” for more information.
The second example comes from a reader who works at the downtown Marriot hotel. They were told e-bikes were not allowed on the property. “Now I can’t use my electric bike to commute to work and would appreciate any suggestions/solutions to this dilemma,” they wrote to BikePortland.
I first reached out to the Portland Fire Bureau. Senior Fire Inspector/Lieutenant Wendy Stanley told me, “The Fire Marshal’s Office has no stance or prohibition on storing and charging e-bikes inside of buildings. Such a prohibition, if created, would be at the discretion of the property owner/management company.”
Lt. Stanley was right. A few days later I heard from the Marriott employee. They since heard from management that the “no e-bikes” order came from Marriott’s own fire inspector who has banned electric bikes and scooters from the hotel property.
“That’s a lot of properties limiting electric transportation,” our reader shared. “I know Tesla has chargers onsite at many properties so apparently the ban doesn’t apply to electric vehicles.”
Hopefully as e-bikes continue their march toward normalization in American society, the rules that apply to them will change. In a truly just society e-bike rules wouldn’t be on par with e-cars, they would be much more favorable and would do everything possible to encourage their use.
Thanks for reading.
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Just like using public trails barred to vehicle access – it’s less about what you have and more about what you do.
I regularly see e-bikes on MAX where the rider does everything possilbe to minimize the impact on the rest of the riders.
I regularly see people with regular bikes block doors & aisles.
Despite the overly broad nature of the TriMet administrative rule, I have never had an issue with my trike – because I’ve rigged a hanger on the boom that can hang on the hook or the crossbar (if the hook is too low).
In fact, hanging it has less of a footprint than my standard DF road-bike does 🙂
I also only use cropped mudguards on the back so I can easily move them into an upright position on the back wheel and take up less room boarding/deboarding.
Many office buildings downtown have a large excess of bike parking right now due to work-from-home. The Marriott employee could negotiate access to those largely empty bike storage spaces. The office building I work in downtown could probably fit 100+ bikes, but there’s less than 20 in there.
It would be great if someone made an app to facilitate this type of activity, but I suspect there is not enough profit in it.
Nedspace, a downtown co-working space, rented me parking in their secure bike parking area for a few years pre-pandemic. It’s on Broadway though, which I think is not very convenient to the Marriott
Well they do have 2 empty parking garages downtown
I think we can see potential for e-bikes and make arguments about why they should be supported, but I’m not sure why the rules and treatment of e-cars should be the appropriate analogy. For subsidies and public investment, sure. But if e-bike batteries catch fire at greater rates than Teslas (and I don’t know if that’s true or not, just anecdotally), then it’s really irrelevant whether or not a building allows car charging but not e-bike parking/charging. Broader picture, obviously, I get it: being able to park your preferred vehicle at work makes you more able to use that vehicle, so let’s try to figure out whether or not there is a specific parking/storage problem related to e-bikes and solve it. Not make spurious comparisons to Teslas.
Likewise it’s interesting to compare the challenge of incorporating e-cars into roads and e-bikes into bike lanes. My initial sense is that e-cars are just not as different from gas-powered cars in terms of speed, size etc so they’ve been easier to integrate. I have huge safety concerns about the size and weight of these massive e-SUVs with their giant batteries, but those aren’t as obvious to fellow commuters. Whereas e-bikes are noticeably different from bikes in a bike lane where speed differentials, size and weight stand out noticeably. I’m sure others have opinions that they will share about their different perceptions!!
It is true, which is why it wasn’t included here. The prevalence of fires in light electric vehicle applications vs. cars is much higher due to a variety of factors, namely exposure to the elements and greater price considerations reflecting cheaper manufacturing techniques. Anyone embracing a little desire for research can identify the embedded safety measures included in an EV that are not included in Ebikes or scooters.
I’m fully aware that e-bike and e-car batteries is not an apple-to-apples comparison. That’s not my point. My point which is 100% right based on the facts, is that the system casts a much more skeptical eye at anything bike-related than it does car-related. I guarantee that if there were common e-car fires it would take many many years for it to ever be reflected in a policy that bans them from major corporate buildings — but if it’s related to bikes it can happen overnight on a whim from some middle manager because, like, who really cares about bikes right?
General Motors was telling some owners of 2017-2019 Bolt EVs not to park their vehicles inside or charge them unattended overnight a few years back. To my knowledge they were never banned from parking garages or corporate buildings.
They (Bolts) were banned from the brewery blocks parking garage (Whole Foods in the pearl) for a while. There may have been be a few other car models (Kia or Hyundai EVs I think) that were banned for a while too. They had signs at the elevators.
But they were some apartments, parking garages didn’t allow them
Thanks for the correction
The risk is higher, that’s the point, so it’s not some conspiracy to get team ebike to feel like victims. More ebikes have battery fires than cars, the standards of production aren’t the same, so maybe quit trying to be 100% right and just advocate for better regulation for your beloved ebikes.
I was talking recently with our local ebike battery experts here in Greensboro NC who just completed a 3-day training in nearby Danville VA (they work at our local Volvo plant). Apparently if you buy an ebike from a “reputable manufacturer” and use the battery as specified, you will pretty much never have to worry about a battery fire or a battery blowing up, even with power spikes, blackouts, brownouts, etc., as both the batteries and the charging systems are designed for such environments. The trouble chiefly comes from those owners who decide to jury-rig a battery from another manufacturer to their bike (this is particularly common with Swytch owners, but also from shady fly-by-night foreign knock-offs bought online, and of course people who know just enough to be dangerous but not enough to actually know what they are doing.) My understanding is that the amount of lithium in the battery is specific to your bike motor, wattage, etc, and it’s quite dangerous to mix and match with other batteries and motors, sometimes even of the same manufacturer but a different model and year.
The “bicycle” parts that go into ebikes are generally a bit stronger and more wear-resistant than those in your standard $450 commuter – the 136 tooth chains are not only longer but a lot stronger steel, spokes are often 13-gauge (0.234mm) and not the 14 or 15 gauge that you are used to, rims are beefed up (and heavier), hubs are more wear-resistant, the frame is a lot heavier, and the tires are rated up to 28 mph – and these components aren’t so easy to come by. Then there’s the battery – $400 if you are lucky – and god help you if your motor isn’t a Bosch and it goes bad.
But of course the rest of us are just poor schmucks who can’t afford to buy the newest greatest ebike with all the bells and whistles – we buy the cheapest model, or online, or used, and stuff often goes wrong, the battery turns out to be defective, the frame cracks, the bike falls apart, and so we jury-rig a repair or have someone unauthorized do it, because we can’t afford to write it off – we need the bike because we are absolutely dependent upon it. And now we have an ebike that doesn’t meet the manufacturers specs, so naturally any reputable bike shop that has a liability insurance policy will turn us away from any repairs since they cannot guarantee the quality of such repairs, so you end up with an “underclass” of third-rate ebike owners who are now dependent on a chop-shop underground ebike industry.
People often will jury-rig anything, bike components, electrical systems, chop-shop bikes, you name it, because of the incredibly high cost of replacing original parts, assuming the parts are still available and for sale (which they often are not within 3 years). Given the constant high rate of built-in obsolesce and new standards our American bike manufacturing industry has, and regular shortages of “new” bike parts, is anyone surprised that chop-shops and bike kitchens are thriving nationwide?
This phrasing makes me more skeptical of your point, not more credulous.
Haha yes that came out kind of weird I admit.
What exactly does “sealed battery compartment” mean? Like a typical rad power bike with all the battery cells in one plastic lump that snaps on the frame, or only the battery that slides inside the frame type? Are they just trying to avoid janky diy setups that are more likely to start fires? And what defines oversize wheels? 20 inch fat tires are smaller diameter than 26 inch skinny tires. I don’t ever plan on taking my bike on the max, just curious.
The “sealed battery” terminology smells like insurance policy. Safety of ebike batteries aside – the discussion is about Trimet’s policy, and this particular rule is weasely in ways that are useful to deflect liability rather than promote safety. Delay objectivity until the time comes to determine liability. If it caused damage to Trimet property, must not have been “sealed”, right?
A safety focused proactive rule might look like, “UL Listed”. Which is definitely happening up the supply chain, so could be reasonable in the near future.
Had a flat tire on my ebike last night. I was turned away from shop after shop, dispute my tire having no motor (I have a mid-drive) in it. Was flat out treated like a leper at one shop. Not the way the bike industry should be treating fellow cyclists.
Lepers don’t choose to have leprosy; the analogy is not apt.
There’s plenty of ebike riders that would choose a regular bike if it was an option for them… Take your abelism elsewhere please…
Be honest: What percentage of people on ebikes do you think are physically unable to ride a regular bike?
Anyway, you can cry ableism all you want, but there are perfectly valid reasons so many shops refuse to work on ebikes–you don’t seriously believe so many businesses are refusing to take people’s money out of prejudice, do you? Try talking to a mechanic some time instead of throwing around accusations. Or just look it up. There are plenty of illuminating online discussions on the topic.
Lastly, a bit of food for thought: I watched a person BECOME disabled by an ebike once. The chain dropped off the chainring, and when they tried to put it back on, the motor kicked in and severed a finger between the chain and the chainring. I called an ambulance for them, but the finger was not saveable.
Like I said, there are legitimate reasons, not ableism.
My knees made me choose between electrifying or stopping riding. It’s 100% when it happens to you.
Jasper’s point was valid–that many people didn’t CHOOSE to need an ebike.
I’d guess it’s low, but who cares? A low percentage of lots of people is still lots of people.
And it’s one thing to be able to physically ride a regular bike at all, but another to be able to COMFORTABLY or FEASIBLY ride one for the routes (distances, hills, etc.) people want to ride. Based on what I’ve read in articles and comments here over the years, that’s LOTS of ebike riders, and maybe even a pretty high percentage.
There are valid reasons why businesses have barriers to accessibility, also, that don’t have anything to do with being prejudiced. The barriers are still barriers, though.
Personally, I think some of the reasons shops don’t want to work on ebikes make sense, and I don’t think they should be forced to. But it IS sad to think of BinPDX being stuck with a flat tire, and getting turned away by one bike shop after another, because apparently many won’t fix flat tires on ebikes.
But Jasper wasn’t saying THEY were exhibiting ableism, they were saying YOU were. And you were, with your (pretty petty, IMO) criticism of the “treated like a leper” comment.
I totally agree that being stuck with a flat that you can’t fix yourself sucks if you can’t find a shop to help you. That said, the solution is probably to take it to an e-bike shop; I wouldn’t expect a motorcycle mechanic to fix a bike flat, even if they had the tools and know-how to do it. Nor would I expect a Harley shop to help fix my Vespa.
This is yet another example of how we just need to be clearer on what we mean when we use words like “bike”, “e-bike”, etc. Mechanics obviously differentiate between these classes of vehicles, so it would probably be helpful if we all did too.
As a mechanic at a shop that doesn’t work on ebikes, BinPDX’s comparison of leprosy and Jasper’s allegation of ableism were pretty petty, IMO.
There certainly are valid reasons not to work on ebikes, I never said there weren’t, nor did I call those shops ableist. I called your comment ableist, because it’s pretty much a textbook example of ableism.
I can do better than talk to mechanics, I am a mechanic. In the last shop I worked at that sold ebikes, I’d say about 70-80% of ebike sales were too long time bicyclists who chose an ebike for medical reasons. This was however about 10 years ago, so I suspect that number dropped somewhat since…
I’m curious what bike your friend had? It’s virtually impossible to severe a finger with legal ebike power levels, and there are several safeguards in place to prevent even minor injury. Still, it’s a good idea to switch it off and disconnect the battery before futzing with ANY power equipment…
How many watts do you think it takes to sever a finger? I reckon 250 is plenty, and that’s much less than lots of machines out there have.
I’m not saying this is the case but from my experience at a shop, A some cheap e bikes a terribly designed and due to this removing a wheel may take a significant amount of time and B most shops are run by and employ cyclist’s. Everyone I know personally, definitely a small sample, strongly dislikes class 2 ebikes which we believe should be classified as some sort of scooter due to their having a throttle and the rider not being required to pedal to move. Plenty of shops have long service queues and this opinion and deficiencies in ebike design have definitely lead the shop I work at to turn away cheap e bikes purchased from the Internet.
Ableist crap. I hope someone sues shops with this policy. My throttle is necessary to start from a stop at intersections, because those first few seconds are what tears up my knees.
could charge more $ instead of turning away.
What size is the tire? What is the hub design, and how are the wheels removed?
Why are you unable to patch your own tire?
As far as I know the fires associated with e bikes and scooters occurred while batteries were being charged. There’s a wide range in the safety hazards of battery chargers. Why not ban charging in a building instead of banning the vehicle?
It would be pretty simple to put bike racks far from outlets, or to put locking covers on nearby outlets. Many batteries are removable and portable so a ban wouldn’t prevent bringing a battery into a building and charging it in a residential or office space.
Instead of a blanket prohibition, why not have an intelligent policy about storage, or charging, and communicate with people about real hazards?
What car has “insane mode”
Tesla…
My bike has an “insane mode”.
It’s actually insanity mode, but whatever. Neighbor across the street has one. He can afford a Ferrari, I asked him why he doesn’t get one. He said it’s because he has a Tesla.
Plenty of standard bikes don’t fit on the max bike hooks, all it takes is a slightly longer wheelbase like found on most dutch bikes. And if you are older or have back issues it’s not advisable to try and hook your bike on the max either. I guess trimet inspectors don’t do DEI. Discrimination lawsuit waiting to happen?
As for banning ebike parking while allowing ecar parking, that’s just more of the same old anti-bike discrimination many of us are already familiar with.
Again, a policy aimed at the poor. There’s a lot of e-bikes out there, but I imagine very few are relied on solely as the only form of transportation. I feel like most ideologically driven bike commuters have money and options and buy bikes that work. The poor get screwed again.
The policy is to preserve train capacity during busier periods. A “standard bike” on the ground takes up the space of 4 to 5 standing passengers. With no designated space for bikes on the ground, I’ve seen the awkward dance that these riders have to do to try and get out of the way when the doors open and people get on and off the train. Sometimes they choose to block the ADA seating, sometimes they block doors.
I wonder if the Marriott fire inspector is aware of what gasoline in a regular car or motorcycle can do in the event of a fire.
“Please tell me this doesn’t run on gas. Gas explodes you know.”
There have been serious incidents involving ev (cars specifically) aboard ships. A fire in a battery weighing hundreds of pounds is nothing to mess with on board a roll-on vehicle carrier, which resembles a very large ferry. I imagine it would be a similar situation in a parking garage.
Gasoline is flammable, but it’s not susceptible to the thermal runaway condition that modern batteries are vulnerable to. You can actually throw a match in a bucket of gasoline and it won’t even catch fire. The hazards are just very different.
Yeah you have to light the match first. Then it absolutely will catch fire. Gas isn’t lamp oil or diesel, it will ignite from a spark, and continue burning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point#Examples
You know what, you’re right and I was wrong. I was remembering an experiment I’d read about with a lit cigarette, not a lit match. The point I was trying to make (which I still stand by) is that gasoline isn’t as dangerous as cartoons and movies make it out to be, but yeah, still please don’t try any of this at home.
“Gas explodes you know.”
It’s actually pretty hard to make an explosion with gasoline. Cars don’t just explode, unless, perhaps, you’re testifying against the mob.
The downtown office building I work caters to e-bikes and bikes in general. There’s an e-bike enclosure where e-bikes can charge for free and a separate one for regular bikes. There’s probably 50+ bikes between the two locker areas every day and it’s enclosed underground space. Seems to work fine and the whole area just takes the space of maybe 5 parked cars. Probably why it’s one of the highest occupied office buildings downtown (from what I hear).
As for e-bikes being limited to certain speeds, I think that’s important for safety. I would not appreciate an e-bike going 30 mph in a bike lane or bike path when I’m chugging up a hill at 8mph. It can be startling to have a vehicle pass by that quickly without any warning. E-cars operate in an environment with equals, whereas e-bikes do not.
Be interesting to look at the mean salary range of these workers commuting on e-bikes to this location.
So a serious question. When does an ebike become an electric motorcycle? These things are getting huge. I am not sure peddles are a qualifier.
I own an ebike and feel this way too. My ebike is basically the build of a city/commuter bike, but with a small motor and battery so that I can ride up hills or for longer distances without being drenched in sweat. The loud fat-tire, throttle bikes that go 25+mph should be classified as mopeds. The pedals are largely decorative and probably just make them more annoying to ride.
Queue the pitchforks,
absolute hard no on the bungee cord, not strong enough and dangerous for anyone nearby if and when it lets go.
They may be somehow be rated strong enough for a static load but on a moving train someones going to get hurt.
Admittedly not a fan in general of many e-bike riders and don’t have one yet but its inevitable as I have ridden motorcycles all my life so it will be a natural progression when it happens.
Having my locked ebike stolen from a busy winco, I am planning my next ebike to be Trimet-Max friendly. Light weight, belt drive, mid motor, narrow bars, short pedals. Foldable mirrors, drop post….mostly light weight.
Don’t forget their other differently aligned online bicycle policy:
https://trimet.org/bikes/bikepolicies.htm
Which bans kid’s bikes and Bromptons (minimum “20 inch” wheel). Also your unremarkably normal adult bike if you like comfy slack geometry for puttering around town (maximum 44 inch / 1117mm wheelbase). It’s as though this guidance was copied verbatim off of the specs from a bus front-loading rack supplier about a decade ago, pasted onto guidance for their entire fleet, and never maintained since.
Printed policies and fliers also present different, often conflicting guidance. Good luck out there.
The policy was fairly clear, excepting the “sealed compartment” business which might be subject to interpretation. A bike with a battery inside the frame would definitely be allowed. Folding bikes have to remain folded but that’s no problem for a Brompton, they are allowed. Kid’s bikes are not banned. Bikes with after market kids seats are banned.
Note that the above bike policy is still really important and accurate for the bus racks.
E-bike mechanic here. E-bikes that are heavy, have poor-quality components, or are not from reputable manufacturers can indeed pose safety risks, both in terms of their reliability and their compatibility with public transport systems. Here are a few points to consider:
1. **Weight and Size**: Heavy e-bikes can be difficult to maneuver and store on public transportation, creating potential hazards for other passengers.
2. **Component Quality**: Cheap suspension forks and other components from non-reputable manufacturers can fail more easily, leading to safety issues.
3. **Tire Type**: Fat tires are bulkier and can be less suitable for storage in confined spaces on public transportation.
Encouraging people to use higher-quality e-bikes and to ride them rather than carrying them on public transportation could help improve overall safety and convenience. However, it’s also important to consider that some people may need to use public transportation for part of their commute and rely on e-bikes for the last mile. Finding a balance between safety, convenience, and accessibility is key.
I have been constructing and riding e-bikes for some time. I have never needed to transport them on other vehicles or use public transportation. I believe public transportation should be reserved for its intended use.
I’ve never understood why people think e-bikes have potential to be transformational. Ultimately, they’re just a better moped and that’s the appropriate way to treat them.
The only benefit they bring is you can use electricity to partially or totally power your trip. You’re still out in the elements exposed to everything. Anyone who considers that a hardship (i.e. virtually everyone) rather than part of the draw won’t be able to stick with it.
It will be interesting to see how things play out as more e-bikes get out there because the practical effect is to significantly increase the average speed of riders — many lacking judgment/skills on heavier bikes that don’t handle well.
For example, on Better Naito, there are a dozen stoplights within a mile of one of the more busy pedestrian areas. It’s a free for all since virtually everyone ignores the signals. This isn’t a problem if people move slowly, but it’s more serious if people moving at right angles move quickly but not cautiously — I’m encountering more e-bikes blasting through stop signs at full speed.
Don’t get me wrong. I actually like e-bikes and prefer that they’re out there because they help the bike lanes move faster. But they’re just one more option (like scooters) that some will choose and most won’t.
On an aside note, comparing e-bikes to e-cars is silly. Anyone who finds e-bikes too limited can always get a motorcycle license — there are production bikes that can go > 200mph
“comparing e-bikes to e-cars is silly”
Bikes, motorcycles, and cars used to inhabit very different points along the mobility spectrum. Now, there are many more intermediate options, making the gradient much more continuous. This makes “war on cars” thinking even less coherent than it was. War on gasoline cars, e-cars, three wheeled car-like vehicles, or ultra powerful 2 wheeled vehicles or what? And why? Because you sit in it rather than on it?
I don’t think you’re legally allowed to take a toddler on a moped, nor would I want to in the main traffic with the other cars. So e-bikes have that going for them. I also don’t see a lot of “cargo mopeds” with covered areas for trivially carrying a lot of stuff. I guess they could, but I don’t see them. I do see cargo bikes everywhere with huge storage areas for kids and whatever.
And I think one of the reasons people don’t ride motorcycles, at full road speed in the lanes with cars, is perceived (and real) danger. Riding a bike in a bike lane is much more accessible to beginners and youth.
And the stoplights on better Naito seem like more of an accident, since the lights were just already there for cars. Most of them have no business being there and I see no problem letting cyclists use their eyes and judgment to decide if there is any reason to stop, just like they would (or wouldn’t!) at any other pedestrian crossing. I’m not one to cross a road on red, but absolutely on Naito.
Otherwise, yeah, it’s true that bikes do leave you out in the elements which is a deterrent to some people. We’ll see. Clearly, and this has to be said a million times apparently every time the question comes up, it’s not an innate human characteristic to be afraid of riding in the elements since we have comparable (in terms of development/wealth) places with much higher ridership. And worse weather.
Unless you want bikes e-bikes, one-wheelers, scooters, electric mopeds, and motorcycles using the bike lanes illegally to stop for pedestrians crossing. It’s not like these riders have so much better judgement and goodwill towards mankind than people who happen to be driving a car at that moment do. And even if they did, pedestrians crossing couldn’t trust that.
And why do you think riding in the rain is something people avoid because they are afraid? A lot of people stay indoors when it’s raining for reasons that are not fear based.
If they don’t put controlled (lighted) crossings on muti-use paths (which I haven’t ever seen), then it doesn’t make any sense to put them on Naito (for cyclists). The lights are there for cars, they’re to allow pedestrians to cross many lanes of multi-directional automobile traffic. This shouldn’t have to be said again, especially here, but bicycles are not cars. They follow different rules.
On Naito, there are pedestrian crosswalks where people need to cross both multi-directional bike lanes and multi-directional car lanes to get across (see example below). Many people crossing may not expect the alternating travel directions of the lanes they will be crossing, and, unlike the car portion of the crossing, there is no refuge to allow people to wait half-way.
It is not unreasonable to ask vehicles using the bike lanes (not just bikes, but also some high-powered, high-speed electric vehicles) to stop for these crossings. While bikes and cars do, in some circumstances, follow different rules, stopping for pedestrians is not one of them.
Why should a motorcycle in the auto lane traveling 25 MPH have to stop, but should an electric motorized bike shaped vehicle traveling at the same speed in one of the bike lanes not have to? What fundamental principle differentiates those circumstances?
If you really feel this is too great an imposition, ask city council to figure out how to direct PBOT to do things differently (I have no idea what mechanism they would use under the new system; maybe you do). I think you will find it difficult to articulate your case in writing to someone who is not a priori believe stopping in this circumstance is unreasonable.
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5153493,-122.673761,3a,75y,66.68h,82.93t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sF1x7izubHxDSue-XU08xHw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DF1x7izubHxDSue-XU08xHw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D66.68%26pitch%3D7.069999999999993%26thumbfov%3D90!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu
Even a small motorcycle weighs over 400 pounds dry, without rider, that’s the difference. It’s the thing everyone is dancing around. We don’t have laws or regulations that put this down, and maybe this is where lines have to be drawn differentiating different classes of vehicles, but it is the fundamental difference between auto traffic and light traffic like bikes and scooters. And 25mph is only happening on Naito on the much bigger, mostly class 2-3 e-bikes. Trying to make this generalization like all the vehicles are the same is exactly the kind of stupid argument starter you warned about in an earlier comment.
When I’m out on Naito with a light weight pedal bike, I will continue to watch for pedestrians (which don’t only come out at lights) and ride through red lights at my discretion when nobody is around like I have been doing the whole time that lane existed. And like 90% of other riders do.
Isn’t that enough?
But regardless, think about it from a traffic safety standpoint: When there is a signal telling pedestrians they can cross, that should stop all conflicting vehicle flow. It makes no sense to turn on the walk signal and still have two lanes of unregulated traffic for walkers to cross. It violates all expectations and creates a safety hazard. I realize you think it is safe for you to ignore these signals, but is it safe for every single other bike lane user out there to do the same?
“I’m good enough to blow this signal” is not how the system works. You would never make a mistake, but others might.
No of course not, they have to use their judgment. Bicycles are different from automobiles. They’re not cars and they give you the ability to be somewhere in between.
Nobody is talking about “blowing signals”, any more than Idaho stops at stop signs are “blowing stop signs”. You look at what’s around and determine it is safe, then you go.
If that worked, we wouldn’t need nearly as many signals as we do. Bicycles are different than automobiles, but bike riders are not so different from car drivers, and motorcycles are not so different from large electric bikes at the speeds allowed on that facility.
Your complaint was that it doesn’t make sense to put signals on Naito. Think of it this way: they’re not for you, they’re for everyone else.
Tautological. You’re saying we need the signals because we have the signals.
This is not convincing. What I do would work if everyone does it. Bikes are different because they are not two ton death machines that reduce your ability to observe your surroundings and kill people with minor mistakes. If one size fits all for all vehicles, then the same rule should apply at all intersections for all road users including pedestrians. Yet we very clearly have different rules for lighter vehicles and different places.
I’m not making this up. This works in places with a lot more pedestrians and bikes than we have. People are capable of doing this because bikes are more human in speed and size. It is no different than when you come up from behind someone on a path. The pedestrian doesn’t know you’re there and they have no responsibility to. You as the cyclist give them space and let them know you’re there so you don’t scare them. At a place like Naito where 90% of the time there isn’t even a pedestrian at the intersection waiting, and visibility is very clear (like in the picture you shared), there is no danger in just going.
This isn’t to say some people don’t do it wrong. Of course they do. They also speed, and run lights at high speed in automobiles. They drive drunk. They drive large vehicles dangerously. They do all sorts of things for which it makes no difference to talk about etiquette because they’re not doing the right thing anyway.
Bikes aren’t cars and vehicular cycling is a bad model. We shouldn’t be pushing this narrative.
No — I’m saying we have signals because experience has shown we need them.
If you tell pedestrians it’s safe to cross, it should be safe to cross. That’s pretty much what it comes down to.
Well, agree to disagree. I’ll leave it at that. I can use my judgment and re-evaluate this opinion later if I’m convinced it makes sense, but I just believe bikes are different enough from cars that we can leave this to humans to decide.
The issue seems to be is the ebike closer to a gas powered bike or a human powered bike?
Doesn’t matter. It has 2 wheels and people use it for transportation. This whole leg power vs battery power is such nonsense.
It matters a lot for regulation and the law. Stories like this one, rules of the road, off road regulations, are some examples.
There is a distinction between leg power and gas power Speed, risks, and licensing are different. Battery power sits in the vague middle. I’m my mind it’s closer to gas power but quieter.
It starts to matter when:
Some are essentially bicycles, some are low powered motorcycles, and some are in between. All are called ebikes, creating confusion and stupid arguments when people using the same words to describe different things accuse each other of negativity and ill will.
We have confusion because they’re way overpowered. If our e-bike laws were like Europe’s (max 250 watt motor and assist up to 15.5mph), these conversations wouldn’t exist.
If the goal really is to make cycling accessible, this should be sufficient as only a small percentage of cyclists can put out that kind of leg power for a significant amount of time. It allows anyone to move like an especially fit cyclist.
The 750W motors allowed in the US put out far more power than any human can sustain and the top speeds are inappropriate on MUPs where human powered bikes already move too fast.
Neither the power nor the speed are inherent problems — except too many people can’t resist using them where they shouldn’t.
You’re doing exactly what Watts just described. “They’re way overpowered”. No they’re not. Some are kind of overpowered. Most e-bikes I see are just not that particularly fast or powerful. So when you say “They’re way overpowered”, people will rightly disagree with you and have stupid arguments. What you really mean is “there are some overpowered e-bikes out there”. That’s easy to agree with.
Some e-bikes are “overpowered” and some are not. Broad statements are always going to be wrong because we haven’t figured out how to talk about these things yet.
I was under the impression that the 750 W motor was pretty standard these days. If so, that gives someone — who might be completely new to cycling — 3x my FTP on a bike which likely has geometry better suited for cruising at <10 mph than around 20 mph.
if it’s not the standard, what is the most common motor output?
Hmm, I haven’t looked at all the mystery brand e-bikes or ones with throttles so maybe they are. The one I have is a Larry Vs. Harry Bullitt, which they say is 250 watts. It just seems like the “reputable” brands tend to stay within reason.
But either way I’m not really sure why the specific wattage matters, more the top speed and maybe weight, but that gets into tricky territory because the rider generally weighs more than any e-bike out there.
I guess I don’t understand the concern with power, if the speed is still limited. Even on a hill where maybe it takes more than 250 watts to go 20mph, what is the safety concern, really? The danger is fast passing, just like with passing pedestrians, which we already have no choice but to enforce (which we don’t) or trust riders to be courteous. The danger is the same whether it’s 250 watts or 750.
Depends on both the rider and the bike. Some riders clearly use them as motorcycles that get to ignore many traffic laws while others clearly use them as bikes. My anecdotal experience is that most people use them as bikes, but the people in the former category attract more attention due to being annoying.
I sometimes wonder if the long term impact of ebikes will be to reduce cycling rather than expand access. We’ve arrived in the weird position where an amazing percentage of conversations about “active” transportation are actually about transportation that is mostly or fully motorized.
Once we have entire generations that never knew nonmotorized active transportation (aside from a handful of retrogrouches), it will be interesting to see which choices they make.
They talked about the culture war, well… we are the front lines. These things need to be sent up the proper chains of authority as we have to be the advocates for ebikes. The United States is criminal enterprise ran by legalized mafias, and it’s up to us to push back against the politicians that continue to fatten their donors wallets at the expense of the good of society. Let’s bring Chinese electric motors in and hurt the fat cats running these rackets.
E-bikes or electric motorcycles that should be traded as such. They should not be allowed on bike paths they’re too dangerous
E-bikes don’t get rebates or tax credits? You must be thinking of bicycles, because while no one ever offers subsidies for bicycles, many entities including state, local, and federal governments as well as utilities have been falling all over themselves to encourage assisted riding with financial incentives. And there are E-bikes with “insane mode” and outrageous acceleration and top speed. They just have pegs instead of cranks, and you need to register them. There’s good reason E-bikes which are allowed on non-motorized facilities are speed restricted.
Every time there is a post about e-bikes here, it’s like decades of people saying “share the road” and “one less car” didn’t actually mean it. Wow, what a shock.
Just because something has pedals, two wheels, and no internal combustion engine *doesn’t* make it a bicycle.
All of our bicycle infrastructure, from underground parking conditions to TriMet bike hooks, was designed for a pedal-bike. Something powered entirely by humans.
Folks that ride pedal-bikes worked really long and really hard to get this infrastructure built. 1000s of hours over years and years. Sitting in meetings. Answering questions. Making assurances. Getting weights and measurements.
Just because another type of two-wheeled vehicle with pedals now exists doesn’t mean that it can automatically be accommodated within the existing infrastructure.
There’s three broad categories of e-Bikes.
First, something like a traditional pedal bike, with 20 or 30 pounds of motor and battery added. Quite similar to traditional pedal-bikes in characteristics.
Second, the standard E-assist bike you see running around town. Weighs about 125 lbs. *can’t* be pedaled home on its own without a superhuman of effort. Has length issues, weight issues that make it a different beast when designing for storage.
Third, an electric motorbike. Doesn’t really need pedals, pedals can’t be used for much anyway. Not a bicycle at all, in my calculations.
Since the second variety of E-bike has become ubiquitous, it’s clear to me that it needs to be called something else. It’s not the cheery little 25 to 30 lb piece of machinery that bicycle advocates have been touting the benefits and needs of for decades. It can’t be automatically added to the existing system. It’s a different beast. As noted above. Fire risk.
I think that instead of calling for uniform acceptance into the existing urban fabric, folks that want to see E-bikes become a fully functional addition to the urban fabric need to start going to meetings. Have associations and alliances. Talk about what E-bikes are, what they need. Certifications for batteries. Length and weight classifications for transit loading. Regulation of speed in congested areas. All that stuff.
It’s not my battle. And please don’t assume that the last 30 years of bicycle advocacy I’ve done on my own clock was intended to create a world safe and comfortable for 150 lb 2-wheel vehicles that can only be operated with a motor. Shoaling past me in close quarters with potentially inexperienced operators.
Just my thoughts,
Ted Buehler
I googled bicycle and got this:
bicycle /bī′sĭk″əl, -sĭ-kəl, -sī″kəl/
noun
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition • More at Wordnik
I have a Rad power bike RadRunner that was made to haul a passenger and it actually weighs 78lbs, so I think you’re over estimating what these bikes weigh. I got it specifically to haul my kid to pre-school and I have pedaled home with him and a dead battery, so it’s not impossible. I never ride on MUPs or bike lanes, mostly just the neighborhood greenways. I’m not that guy on the 45 mph electric dirtbike doing wheelies down Woodward. But still, I’ve had more negative interactions with men in spandex on my ebike in 2.5 years than I have in 15 years of commuting on my recycled, reused, 125 mpg 1978 moped. I’ve been aggressively cut off while hauling my kid by that long haired, bearded with glasses worker at JoeBike more than once. (that place is sure never getting my business). Now that my kid gets a ride with his Mom to work at a different school district (thank Zeus), I’m ready to go back to the moped full time because I’m tired of people yelling that they were not aware of me because they’re not smart enough to use a rear view mirror and have their earpods/bluetooth speakers up too loud. Sorry I bruised your fragile ego, spandex man, when I coasted past you as the light turned from red to green. Sorry I can’t afford the $5000 lightweight e-bike that you find acceptable, I’m just a service industry worker trying to get to my job.
Is there any way TriMet could retrofit some of the cars with larger hooks? Even regular bikes with deep rims and/or larger tires won’t fit on most of them. I’m running 48s on my commuter and it won’t fit any of the hooks except on the newest cars. Many of them are also missing the rubber protector and will scratch your rims if you hang them on the bare steel. I’ve never been asked to disembark, but it is a hassle standing there the whole ride making sure my bike doesn’t fall over or roll into anyone. I’m lucky in that my commute involves a stretch where MAX only opens the doors on one side, so I can lean my bike against the other doors and not block them; other trips involve moving the bike out of peoples’ way at each and every stop.
Somewhere I have a picture of my big dummy hanging from a hook on the MAX circa 2010. The back end snugged up against the central handrail but I did not block access to a door. 😀