Support BikePortland

Activist claims Forest Park trail being “ruined by cyclists”

Posted by on March 27th, 2013 at 4:23 pm

Photo by Marcy Houle sent to Mayor Hales
and other City Council members. It shows bike tires
in the mud on what she says is Wildwood Trail.

As we shared last month, the debate over improving bicycle access in Forest Park seems to be heating up once again.

On March 14th, Marcy Houle, an activist and author of One City’s Wilderness: Portland’s Forest Park who has been very outspoken in opposition to bicycling in the park, emailed Mayor Charlie Hales and the rest of City Council urging them to do something about people who ride illegally on Wildwood Trail.

Houle’s email (sent on March 14th) focused on the Wildwood Trail, which she describes as being, “arguably the most pristine, natural, and heralded city park hiking trail in the United States.” Houle shared photos she says show damage to the trail from bicycle tires and she called on the Mayor, City Council members, and Parks Director Mike Abbate to stop the “criminal activity.”

Read the full text of her email below (emphases mine):

Marcy Houle.
(Photo © J. Maus/BikePortland)

Dear Mayor Hales, Commissioners Fritz, Fish, Saltzman, Novik [sic], Park Superintendent Abbate, and To All Citizens Who Care About Forest Park:

In all of my years of researching, exploring, and writing about Forest Park, I have never witnessed such devastation to a Forest Park footpath as I did today.

The prized Wildwood Trail is being usurped and ruined by cyclists riding illegally and without any regard for the health of the park nor the safety of walkers.

Please review the attached four photos (out of approximately 50) that I took today that show the incredible damage caused by this one user group, and one photo that shows the rampant vandalism to the signs that say “No Cycling.”

Mayor Hales, Commissioner Fish, and Park Superintendent Abbate: what are you doing to put a stop to this criminal activity?

Where is the enforcement? Where is the park ranger (whom, as we know, has no authority to write citations) to safeguard the footpaths of Forest Park?

The flagrant, unsafe, and criminal behavior exhibited by cyclists who are riding illegally on pedestrian only trails throughout the park needs to be made public for all to see. Their actions need to be immediately addressed and stopped.

I will be happy to take anyone on a tour who wants to see first hand the destruction of Wildwood Trail — arguably the most pristine, natural, and heralded city park hiking trail in the United States.

After reviewing these photos, I hope you will finally begin to live up to your responsibilities and show true leadership in protecting this city park that is unequaled in all of the United States. We received it intact from prior leaders, and it is a treasure. Under your watch, if you show no action and let rogue users take it over with impunity, and then, cater to their demands, we risk losing its unparalleled and unique qualities forever.

I encourage everyone who cares about Forest Park to pass this letter on.

Sincerely,
Marcy Houle

It’s worth noting that Houle was the main anti-mountain biking force during the year-long public process that concluded in 2010 with a recommendation for no new bicycle access in the park. Houle is concerned by steps being taken by Director Abbate to improve bicycle access in Forest Park. In December, following a wildlife study of the park that found bicycling does not pose a major threat to the park’s ecology, Abbate said he supports more bicycling and plans to create new trails where bicycling will be allowed.

For more on the Forest Park mountain biking issue, browse our past coverage.

NOTE: We love your comments and work hard to ensure they are productive, considerate, and welcoming of all perspectives. Disagreements are encouraged, but only if done with tact and respect. If you see a mean or inappropriate comment, please contact us and we'll take a look at it right away. Also, if you comment frequently, please consider holding your thoughts so that others can step forward. Thank you — Jonathan

newest oldest most voted
Notify of
Alex
Guest
Alex

So she opposes more access to single track in Forest Park and then is surprised/mad that people are using what’s there?

I am also curious as to how much “destruction” has really occurred. To me, some bike tracks in mud isn’t really threatening the livelihood of Forest Park and isn’t ruining the trail.

Where is the enforcement for off-leash dogs? They seem to be the number one offender and riding your bike is on the same level as that. Also, we don’t leave plastic bags filled with poop scattered around.

I agree something needs to change and it is Marcy’s attitude about letting mtb’s in forest park and providing adequate access.

Hart Noecker
Guest

“To me, some bike tracks in mud isn’t really threatening the livelihood of Forest Park and isn’t ruining the trail.”

Are you a park ranger?

Alex
Guest
Alex

No, but I don’ t think a Park Ranger would be the one to make that assessment either as they are not the ones who would be doing an impact study. I am going to assume you don’t know too much about how these things are determined since you think a Park Ranger would be able to determine that. I would look at the many impact studies that have been done and almost all agree that MTB’s do very little damage.

longgone
Guest
longgone

In defense of Hart’s question…Park rangers can were many hats. I at one time in the 1980’s became good friends with a NFS Ranger with Forest biology degree’s. He also had extensive knowledge of recreational impacts and was a primary contributor to a EIS in the Mark Twain National Foerest. BTW.. his coffee sipping small talk with me said that bicyles were of virtually no concern and with proper trail management even motorcycles (two wheeled ones) were far from destructive in regards to errosion ( based on their footprint and H20 flow.). Motorized vehicles passing through marshy stuff, was a no-no. Horses were the bain of his work (which at the time suprized me.), so he said. But I digress…

longgone
Guest
longgone

..wear hats. 🙂

q'Tzal
Guest
q'Tzal

Especially if they are Flying horses 😉

A
Guest
A

Also, let’s not forget – let’s *not* forget, Dude – that keeping wildlife, an amphibious rodent, for uh, domestic, you know, within the city – that aint legal either.

R-dat
Guest
R-dat

Good call on the off leash dogs – HUGE problem. I run on wildwood fairly frequently and have never actually seen a bike poaching the trail but every single time out I encounter numerous off leash dogs. I have been tripped, forced into puddles or off the trail, and even chased once by off leash dogs.

yellowjacket
Guest
yellowjacket

Bravo, Marcy, for speaking up in defense of Forest Park from the onslaught of destructive mechanized modes of transport. As someone who has extensively studied the park’s flora and fauna, she is a true friend of Forest Park. I trust her views more than all the views of the cyclists on this blog put together who want to ransack all the park has to offer.

Bjorn
Guest
Bjorn

Ruts in the park aren’t great, and I think it is important for people to ride when it is wet, but while this might be evidence of people riding within the park she provides zero evidence to support any of her over the top accusations of danger. I think we should take her up on her offer to tour us through the park one at a time to see the “UNSAFE” behavior first hand. Does anyone have her phone number so that we can call her to request our personal tours?

Alex
Guest
Alex

I didn’t see any ruts in the pictures provided – but I do agree, no one wants those.

Based on her previous actions, it is not hard to believe that she is completely blowing this out of proportion. I would love a guided tour and an explanation of the environmental impact that these tracks actually have on the surrounding area.

bjorn
Guest
bjorn

I obviously meant important for people not to ride single track when it is wet…

Marid
Guest
Marid

I agree. If there will ever be MTB access it will likely be limited to the dry season. When the trails are dry and hard-packed MTBs do very little damage. Assuming you don’t skid, probably the same as hiking boots. When it’s wet you get ever widening trails of muck as people try to skirt the edges of the trail. Even worse is going off-trail into soft soils.

Chris Mealy
Guest

Forest Park is hardly pristine. From what I’ve seen it’s mostly invasive english ivy. I’d rather have bike ruts.

dave
Guest
dave

Seriously. This is what drives me most nuts about the whole thing; IT’S NOT A WILDERNESS, PEOPLE. It’s an overgrown 80-year-old clearcut / abandoned subdivision smack in the middle of an enormous urban environment. It only looks wild because it’s next to a railyard. Which betrays just how disingenuous these people are – it’s not wild, therefor wilderness preservation isn’t their goal. Their goal is selfish hoarding of a public resource for themselves.

Marid
Guest
Marid

The park actually has fairly diverse wildlife. Volunteers and the Water Bureau spend a lot of time clearing out brush and ivy. Oregon Field Guide has a few programs about Forest Park you might want to check out. The most destructive activity I see is erosion and subsequent silting of streams. I love mountain biking, but you have to respect the trails or you get kicked out. Trying to argue that it’s ok to abuse a park because it isn’t wilderness won’t do us any favors.

davemess
Guest
davemess

Have either of you guys been to Sandy Ridge? If properly built trails can handle a decent amount of water, and won’t necessarily have to be limited to just a few dry months of the summer. Even Powell Butte drains pretty well and is rideable most months of the year. Most of the “hiking” trails through forrest park were not built very well, especially for bikes, and this becomes evident after almost any rain.

davemess
Guest
davemess

Sorry that was meant for the above comments.
Why does it seem like the reply function has been messed up lately? Might want to look into it Jonathan. I’m using Safari, and if I hit reply, it usually just refreshes the page and takes me to the top. Takes a few times to get an actual reply.

A.K.
Guest
A.K.

I’m having the same page refresh issue with Chrome.

Nicholas
Guest
Nicholas

But by allowing bikers access to the park, you are also soliciting a HUGE work base for maintaining and improving existing trails. Some of these workers have a great skill set, funding for needed trail amendments (i.e. gravel) and trail work experience to draw from. Any thing that has an issue, would be fixed NO ISSUE.

howrad
Guest
howrad

I noticed even worse ruts than that on the Lower Macleay trail last weekend, but from feet.

Adam
Guest
Adam

Agreed.

Bill Walters
Guest
Bill Walters

In that photo, I’m pretty sure I see sneaker and dog prints — same depth. Marcy: How about we match the scope of the ban to such evidence?

Allan
Guest
Allan

I would gladly hike that trail in the condition in the photo. While I don’t particularly approve of riding the wildwood, I don’t see anyone doing the one thing which would lead to less riding the wildwood – building new trails!

daisy
Guest
daisy

I know some folks take jogging strollers on the Wildwood. Could those tracks be three wheels x 2 on an out-and-back?

Ray Ogilvie
Guest
Ray Ogilvie

I think it’s a baby jogger tire track.

Alli
Guest
Alli

I saw a baby jogger on the Wildwood just a few days ago actually. It’s not the first time I’ve seen them either.

Burk
Guest
Burk

I would love to see the rest of the pics, any links? I’m no trail management expert but I’m just not seeing any damage. If the tread marks where widening out the trail, or there where a bunch of skid marks digging big grooves in the trail then maybe. This looks no worse than what a group of 10 or 20 people would do walking through the same terrain in hiking boots. Don’t get me started on what a horse would do in those conditions.

oliver
Guest
oliver

Activist is right. A quick scan of the results of her name search seem to indicate that she believes Forest Park is some kind of wilderness.

wsbob
Guest
wsbob

Being the closet thing to wilderness the city of Portland has for natural surroundings, as wilderness, is exactly the way residents of Portland and the city should seek to conserve and protect Forest Park’s 5000 acres.

Some of the words Marcy Houle uses in her email, venture into hyperbole rather than realistically describing the issue she’s concerned about. That’s not good, because it unwittingly helps to open up opportunity to people whose intentions indicate they don’t particularly have any regard for this unique city park, other than to somehow make a case to have the city’s uniquely expansive nature park be used for off-road biking.

While in her email to city officials, Marcy Houle gets a bit excessive, venturing into hyperbole to describe the issue she’s concerned about, bikeportland’s publisher Jonathan Maus, in his article to bikeportland readers, once again as he has in at least one past bikeportland story about efforts to have Forest Park be used for mountain biking, chooses to euphemistically refer to such efforts as being made “…to improve bicycle access in Forest Park. …”.

Carefully, or otherwise using some euphemistic phrase that doesn’t include the words ‘mountain biking’ or ‘off-road biking’, instead of plainly stating that the intention of some people is ‘to officially open Forest Park to mountain biking’, is a disservice to people with a genuine interest in having their questions about use of the park, be realistically answered.

Is Houle raising a legitimate issue about mountain bike tires creating damaging ruts in a trail engineered for foot travel, and do her pictures accurately depict actual impact from illegal use of bikes on such trail? Maybe, maybe not. Despite perhaps being a bit over-dramatic in describing the situation, she did at least, bother to take pictures of the alleged damage, has attempted to alert city officials, and in civil terms, has extended an open invitation to personally guide people to examples of where she feels damage to trail from illegal bike use has occurred.

CharlieB
Guest
CharlieB

It’s a big park. Let’s share it already.

Mike Vandeman
Guest

You CAN share it. All you have to do is WALK, just like everyone else. Is that too much for you? There is absolutely no good reason to allow bikes on trails, where they are very destructive.

Bicycles should not be allowed in any natural area. They are inanimate objects and have no rights. There is also no right to mountain bike. That was settled in federal court in 1996: http://mjvande.nfshost.com/mtb10.htm . It’s dishonest of mountain bikers to say that they don’t have access to trails closed to bikes. They have EXACTLY the same access as everyone else — ON FOOT! Why isn’t that good enough for mountain bikers? They are all capable of walking….

A favorite myth of mountain bikers is that mountain biking is no more harmful to wildlife, people, and the environment than hiking, and that science supports that view. Of course, it’s not true. To settle the matter once and for all, I read all of the research they cited, and wrote a review of the research on mountain biking impacts (see http://mjvande.nfshost.com/scb7.htm ). I found that of the seven studies they cited, (1) all were written by mountain bikers, and (2) in every case, the authors misinterpreted their own data, in order to come to the conclusion that they favored. They also studiously avoided mentioning another scientific study (Wisdom et al) which did not favor mountain biking, and came to the opposite conclusions.

Those were all experimental studies. Two other studies (by White et al and by Jeff Marion) used a survey design, which is inherently incapable of answering that question (comparing hiking with mountain biking). I only mention them because mountain bikers often cite them, but scientifically, they are worthless.

Mountain biking accelerates erosion, creates V-shaped ruts, kills small animals and plants on and next to the trail, drives wildlife and other trail users out of the area, and, worst of all, teaches kids that the rough treatment of nature is okay (it’s NOT!). What’s good about THAT?

To see exactly what harm mountain biking does to the land, watch this 5-minute video: http://vimeo.com/48784297.

In addition to all of this, it is extremely dangerous: http://mjvande.nfshost.com/mtb_dangerous.htm .

For more information: http://mjvande.nfshost.com/mtbfaq.htm .

The common thread among those who want more recreation in our parks is total ignorance about and disinterest in the wildlife whose homes these parks are. Yes, if humans are the only beings that matter, it is simply a conflict among humans (but even then, allowing bikes on trails harms the MAJORITY of park users — hikers and equestrians — who can no longer safely and peacefully enjoy their parks).

The parks aren’t gymnasiums or racetracks or even human playgrounds. They are WILDLIFE HABITAT, which is precisely why they are attractive to humans. Activities, such as mountain biking, that destroy habitat, violate the charter of the parks.

Even kayaking and rafting, which give humans access to the entirety of a water body, prevent the wildlife that live there from making full use of their habitat, and should not be allowed. Of course those who think that only humans matter won’t understand what I am talking about — an indication of the sad state of our culture and educational system.

dwainedibbly
Guest
dwainedibbly

They look like stroller tracks to me. Seriously, how do you know those came from bikes?

Aaron
Guest
Aaron

I walk/run the Wildwood and several other trails fairly regularly. There are spots that look as bad or worse than the location pictured above and these only have foot prints in them.

puddletown
Guest
puddletown

Let the Mayor and Parks director know that Marcy’s views are NOT in the best interest of the citizens. Much to her dismay Forest Park is a shared resource for multiple uses not her personal “wilderness”

Contact info mayorcharliehales@portlandoregon.gov and director.abbate@portlandoregon.gov

JOHN ALAN NAYLOR
Guest

Aaron is on the correct arch here….a too wet, sloppy, poorly managed trail is lame regardless of whether it’s being walked on or cycled-thru. I live in Bethany, walk/bike ALL sections ……..the last 3 yrs. have been very wet ( while in Durham N.C. last August I remember telling my best friend that firelane 3 was STILL too wet to ride on w/out damaging it on July 4th. ). Only better trail management will keep this issue from “eroding” further…..fun-o-fact for 2day ????? Did you know there are more than 4x as many people living in PDX than there were when I left high school in 1985 ????? ,……………………..

Adam
Guest
Adam

Using her own logic, I assume Marcy has a big problem with hikers and runners on the Wildwood Trail too? I’m sorry, but the Wildwood Trail is far from the “pristine trail” Marcy claims it is. It is infested with invasive species such as garlic mustard, English ivy, and holly – all of which has been brought in entirely by hikers et al using the park. Go to the less trodden portions of Forest Park where few people on foot venture, and the invasive species count PLUMMETS.

There is also rampant trail braiding – that’s where walkers and runners cannot be bothered to use any of the switchbacks, and make their own trails STRAIGHT up the hills between switchbacks, ruining the ecosystem, and causing drainage nightmares….

I’m sure, based on this evidence, Marcy will be okay with banning walkers and runners from the park too. Or is she what I strongly suspect she might be – a bit of a hypocrite, with an anti-bike agenda to boot?

wsbob
Guest
wsbob

You seem to be saying that you feel that people on foot using the park over years, are responsible for having degraded the park’s natural environment; and since, in your opinion, this is so, it should somehow be acceptable for people to further degrade the park by using it for mountain biking, also. That’s not a very positive, persuasive argument for making use of the park for mountain biking and off-road biking.

A related rationale may partly account for why numbers of off-road bike enthusiasts apparently think the sub-alpine mountain slopes at Timberline Lodge ski-resort on Mt Hood, with its clear cuts for ski runs and chairlifts, may as well be used for downhill mountain bike runs.

Chainwhipped
Guest

Of course, how selfish of us. Let’s do all the things that YOU wanna do.

When was the last time you saw a trail maintenance crew made up of – and organized by – hikers? We’d all appreciate it if y’all would stop insisting that riding a mounainbike makes us inconsiderate of the environment. Especially when you’ve just driven your car to Forest Park on asphalt that was once pristine wildlife habitat.

Now, put down the binoculars for a moment and look at what’s right in front of your face.

Here’s the basic issue:
People need playgrounds for all kinds of activities. Sometimes it’s slide and a jungle gym, sometimes it’s a skate park, sometimes it’s a trail in the woods built and maintained by people who ride bikes upon it.

Here’s what’s happening:
When there are no skate parks, we see a lot more illegal skateboarding than we do when skate parks exist within an accessible distance. Hence, when there is no accessible place to ride a mountainbike legally, we see plenty of illegal mountainbiking.

Offer a solution, Bob. Telling the mountain bikers of the Portland area to “F**k Off so I can watch birds” is selfish and counter-productive. This illusion that mountainbikes somehow equal motorcycles is absurd. Arguing over whether a 2-3ft wide path will somehow ruin a park with 20ft wide fire lanes already ranging from one end to the other is even more absurd.

More places to ride mountainbikes will come to the Portland area. Make peace with it. Help us find a place you’re okay with, or put up with the activity we’re already seeing in Forest park, because it will continue.

wsbob
Guest
wsbob

Chainwhipped…you’re welcome to do a search of bikeportland’s archives for past comments I’ve posted to stories about efforts to use Forest Park for mountain biking, in which I’ve offered many suggestions, as have other people, about ways mountain biking enthusiasts could possibly expand mountain biking opportunities within Portland, or in the metro area.

In making those suggestions, I’ve never done so in a dismissive manner as you suggest by your use of foul mouthed language. If you seek a constructive dialogue, attempt not to sabotage the potential for it by destructive efforts.

Chainwhipped
Guest

Well, Frak, Bob. I guess I see part of your frakkin’ point. In the future I’ll be sure not to edit my frakkin’ pseudo-profanity as that is apparently upsetting to some.

And, I suppose you’re being Constructively Dismissive. Which, I admit, is completely frakkin’ different.

Adam
Guest
Adam

wsbob – Actually I don’t support bikes on the Wildwood Trail, and nowhere in my comment will you find anything stating that I support bikes on the trail.

What I am pointing out however, is that Marcy is hypocritical to single out a very, very small percentage of bicyclists for ruining the park, when hundreds of thousands of hikers, runners, and dog walkers and their dogs have been ruining the park already for decades.

Adam
Guest
Adam

Not to mention the effect particulates from hundreds of thousands of motorists on the park who drive Saltzman/Germantown/Newberry/Cornell/Skyline…. but we’ll save that rant for another day!

wsbob
Guest
wsbob

You seem to be attempting to rationalize that since, in your opinion, foot travel in the park has done some harm to the park, it should also be fine for harm to be done to the park by its use for off-road biking. Houle doesn’t mention anything at all about numbers of people biking in the park, but instead, simply if not plainly, says and provides photo evidence that people riding bikes are using the park, illegally.

Whether or not bike tires on trail is damaging the trail is just one issue, and is really beside the main point, which is that Forest Park, as a nature park, was not created to be used for the type of activity that is probably most of the different types of mountain/off-road biking.

Peter
Guest
Peter

Based on her email, Madam Houle clearly has issues. Sorry Marcy, but there are always going to be “scofflaws”. Most cyclists are respectful and stay off Wildwood.

Still, I don’t understand what all of the Forest Park bashing is about? FP is a gem and we should be taking care of it for our use and for future generations. Yes, it’s overrun in places with English Ivy and countless other invasive species, but there are beautiful, nearly-pristine sections as well.

The problem is the we, as Portlanders, horribly under-fund the maintenance of FP; Wildwood is a mess in many places. Why don’t we as cyclists, runners, and hikers all agree to fund it properly? We need to fix the existing trails and firelanes and build adequate single-track.

Alex
Guest
Alex

I don’t think it is so much bashing as just being realistic.

sabes
Guest
sabes

But cyclists can do no wrong! We’re allowed to go anywhere we want because we don’t burn fossil fuels and we don’t clog things up like those damn pedestrians and their sauntering and swaggering! I’m going to impune Marcy’s character and not address he concerns because we’re right and she’s wrong!

alex
Guest
alex

Great argument. Her arguments have been weak, at the very best, and have straight out ridiculous/slanderous at worst. It is much like your comment, which adds nothing to the argument. Do you back her up? What have you seen? Do you think those are ruts or are they just bike tracks through mud? If you are going to call bullshit on something you better bring something to the argument other than bullshit.

sabes
Guest
sabes

But cyclists can do no wrong! We’re allowed to go anywhere we want because we don’t burn fossil fuels and we don’t clog things up like those damn pedestrians and their sauntering and swaggering! I’m going to impugn Marcy’s character and not address he concerns because we’re right and she’s wrong!

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous

I ALWAYS slow down, pull to the side and allow hikers to pass when I ride hiking trails illegally.

She’s right, it does need to be addressed. I propose that the trail be shared between hikers and mountain bikers.

The “NO BICYCLES” signs showed up in the late-80’s. Maybe the trail should be Bicycles only and no hikers for the next 20 or so years. That sounds fair to me.

Brian Johnson
Guest
Brian Johnson

I realize this might be a little tangent to the issue, but I note with interest that there is a bottle of “mountain spring” water in front of Ms. Houle. Perhaps she should address THAT particular environmental evil and the deleterious effect its production has on pristine environments.

JRB
Guest
JRB

Lame argument. Unless you always choose the least environmental impact option in your dozens of daily decisions, you should try to limit your response to the substance of her arguments and leave what water she drinks out of it (assuming its her water bottle to begin with).

Skid
Guest
Skid

Does anyone have a picture of the craters hikers’ feet leave in mud?

Spiffy
Guest

a Google image search of “forest park wildwood trail muddy” resulted in many pictures showing much worse conditions caused by hikers…

bjorn
Guest
bjorn

I am serious about wanting to tour the damage Marcy believes to have been caused by cyclists with her. I have tried to find contact info but have not been able to, does anyone know how to get in touch with her?

Brian
Guest
Brian

She is on Facebook and Linkedin. Please let us know when the tour is scheduled. I would like to attend, if possible.

bjorn
Guest
bjorn

I got her email and have tried to contact her, so far no response. I want to get out there right away, as I am concerned that the damage may be gone before we get a chance to see it. I encourage others to try to contact her to, she is trying to get the word out about this and wants to show people how dangerous mountain biking can be. I am surprised by her statements and look forward to seeing the damage and danger first hand.

was carless
Guest
was carless

The rhetoric in that letter was rather pernicious.

davemess
Guest
davemess

I have to say that I am both saddened and still surprised (that alone is surprising to me as I’ve lived here for 2.5 years) at the attitudes of many in this supposedly “progressive” city. Mountain bikers are not going away, the sport is not going to shrink. The interest is still going to be there (and unfortunately when give no other opportunities some people will ride on trails illegally). People are going to continue to push for more (or any) access. It would incredibly behove people like the above email-writter, to get this into their head, and perhaps decide to find ways to responsibly work with mountain bikers (many of whom were volunteering in the park, until the 2010 commissioner fiasco). Just crazy to me that in 2013, these arguments are still happening with consistency.

Jim F.
Guest
Jim F.

Far too many underused trails in Forrest Park, especially as you head farther north. I think it is time those trails be converted to biking trails. Restricting all of the trails in the park to hiking (I have rarely if ever seen anyone on the more remote, underused trails when running) doesn’t make any sense.

wsbob
Guest
wsbob

Trails in parts of Forest Park, or in any nature park, which is what Forest Park is…that are little used, make a great deal of sense. People holding their presence and activity in such places, to a low profile plays an important role in allowing natural settings to continue being the natural environments available for people to experience, that they are. People seeking a quieter, less traveled place in the park than parts of it closest to the city are, can go there knowing this is what they’ll find.

Scott
Guest
Scott

That letter is hilarious. Marcy Houle is in my mind now as some sort of hybrid Shakespearean nemesis and that “Won’t somebody please think of the children” lady from the Simpsons.

Todd Hudson
Guest
Todd Hudson

Mary Houle’s hyperbole is turned up to 11.

Alma
Guest
Alma

I agree with Jim F, there are sections of Wildwood that are like 8 inches wide with LOW overhanging branches (you actually have to duck to go under). Since NO ONE seems to use them (well, the hand full of trail runners that actually run distances; I am a trail runner aside from an MTB’er), those should definitely be opened to all… that way the park can be used to its full potential and maintained better.

Tony Pereira
Guest

Go back to the same spots on those trails in three months and there will be no sign of bike tracks. Wildwood is very resilient and mostly well designed. It could use better drainage in a few spots, but it’s mostly good to go. Open it to bikes on even numbered days and gain an army of trail maintainers.
Ms. Houle is the leader of the anti-sharing selfish powers that be in the park. Her unwillingness to compromise is sad.

basketloverd
Guest
basketloverd

Having ridden those trails from the early 82 to 97 that spot seems to be in exactly the same shape now as it was then, for this time of year. So like Tony said that trail will firm back up in a couple of months.

longgone
Guest
longgone

Thanks to T.Pereira, for speaking frankly, if not bravely on this while being a person in our community who’s livelyhood revolves around bicycles. yea! He is correct. People will participate in responsible ways, if allowed to ride FP, and help with the trails. IMO.

elk rider
Guest
elk rider

I’m not convinced any of those tracks are from a bicycle. About half of them are super narrow and not very deep. Maybe there is a 35 pound person on a road bike tearing it up?

The wider tracks, I’d have to see more, but it would be VERY easy to determine if this is a jogging-style stroller or a bike, if you just look to see signs of broken traction (braking / sliding / spinning out / cornering).

Paul
Guest
Paul

Whoops! I guess it’s no more hiking while the trails are wet 😉

Spiffy
Guest

she has a valid point, people are bicycling illegally on the trail…

unfortunately her NIMBY response completely overshadows her non-existent concerns…

she’s essentially yelling at a toddler to stop playing, and not giving them something else to play with…

and as we’ve seen in other comments, now that she’s drawn attention to herself she has opened herself up for criticism in all the other ways she fails at environmental stewardship…

share the (dirt) road…

resopmok
Guest
resopmok

Finally, a reasonable comment with which I can share some sympathy. All those who who want to demonize Ms Houle for bringing forth valid concerns are no better than the concerns themselves which are brought without reasonable thoughtfulness and proffered solutions.

People are illegally riding their bikes here because they have no good alternative within the city limits and they will continue to do so until some are offered. We’ve built skateparks, MUPs, and even on-street facilities to help commuters; why can’t we find the space for some recreational MTB riding within the city? Even Seattle built a park under a freeway. And yes, the Lumberyard is something, but it’s indoors, and it costs money.

Not having these facilities doesn’t excuse the behavior, either, and those interested in seeing them built would be wise to do what they can to help curb what is posted as illegal riding. Forest Park is not perfect, pristine wilderness by any stretch of the imagination, but it is a large, beautiful park and deserves the efforts of conservation and restoration.

There are many of us who feel real connection to both nature and the people who are involved in these struggles. By continuing to sling mud at each other, opposing forces are doing little to find the creative solutions which will guide them towards a harmonious outcome for all. This hurts everyone. Instead, the obvious anger only plants the seeds for more destruction — both in the park and the relationships of those groups who should be working together.

Humans are reasonable, thinking, and feeling creatures. This is a problem we can solve, but we have to work together, not against each other. Please.

Ryno Dan
Guest
Ryno Dan

It’s not “cyclists”, it’s mountain bikers. And it’s an open secret that mountain bikers constantly poach the wildwood trail.

Pardon the interruption, back to demonizing the woman who dared to write the city council about her concerns…

elk rider
Guest
elk rider

Comments like that only help to divide us into smaller groups. I wonder if the reason this city tends to be so anti-mtb is because they associate mountain bikers with the cyclists they see on the streets every day ignoring traffic signals. Do we really want to go there?

Alex
Guest
Alex

Did you read the letter? It was an open letter to the community and not just to city council. She also demonized people in her letter. You get what you give.

Fred Lifton
Guest
Fred Lifton

Far too much public policy in this country is driven by hysterical ideologues like Ms. Houle. Fear-mongering, self-righteousness and fact-free shouting seem to rule the day, regardless of what a reasonable majority seem to think. Ms. Houle believes off-road riders are a “danger” and are “ruining the Park” because her gut tells her so, and she expects that to be good enough for the rest of us.

It isn’t.

Joe
Guest
Joe

FREE Forest park!

lunchrider
Guest
lunchrider

I am always amazed by the number of vitriolic comments aimed at Marcy.
She is well spoken and far from hysterical in her letter. She has valid concerns and its the rare comment here that even addresses them with a solution. Perhaps a rider fee to pay for enforcement? Her concern was illegal riding. And remember just because you want something doesn’t make it right, heck I am sure there are people who would like to drive their 4 wheelers and trucks on the trails and Leaf Erickson, boy would we all howl then. I think many of the posters here would be better served to read Marcie’s books and then volunteer to help fixup the park for everybody. As always actions speaks louder then words, If there is not a group well then go organize it. Marcy and her friends use the park and love it and have its best interest at heart. I am a hiker and a rider but I don’t need to ride everywhere,people should spend there energy opening up areas for riding where its welcomed

Brian
Guest
Brian

Hi Lunchrider,
We have mentioned solutions to “illegal riding” many, many times; only to fall on deaf ears. We cannot police each other, though we have done outreach to other mountain bikers through a variety of communications. Unfortunately, those who oppose “illegal riding” also oppose the only common sense solution-legal riding.
Myself, and many others, have done work in the Park that benefits the park and all users. I would argue a disproportionate amount given what we are given access to. For example, 40+ of us rode our bikes out to Linnton to pull Ivy at a Forest Park trailhead. We don’t have legal access to the trailhead. We did it because we DO care about the park as much as anyone else. If you happen to attend work parties, you have probably rubbed shoulders with us. We don’t present ourselves as mountain bikers. We are people who also hike, birdwatch, remove ivy, etc. For the past 6 months a good portion of our efforts have gone towards improving the Riverview area. We have organized and put in over 400 hours of time removing garbage, improving and re-routing unsustainable trails for all users, and planting 250 native plants. We did this because we care.
Lastly, I take offense with your comment that “people should spend there (sic) energy opening up areas for riding where its welcomed.” A few vocal opponents with more political clout than us does not me we are not welcomed. I would be willing to wager that the Parks department, in addition to a majority of Park users, would welcome us and our resources with open arms.
There are solutions for the perceived “problems” associated with mountain bikers. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, some have zero desire to hear them. Here’s something I say to my students all the time-“Minds are like umbrellas, they work best when they are open.”
Cheers!
Brian

f5
Guest
f5

mountain bikes = legitimate trail users
4×4 cars ≠ legitimate trail users

Alex
Guest
Alex

Really? You don’t think she isn’t just a bit grand when describing Forest Park, the damage being done to the trail by cyclists and how cyclists are endangering the lives of other users? You think those photos show the decline and decimation of FP? I have been riding/running/walking/working on trails up there for many years and have seen damage up there far greater than the picture included and when it dries out, the “damage” goes away. Calling people “criminals” is a not a way to win over a community or even try to work with them. That is very aggressive language and would not refer to it as rational or even reasonable. She is simply sore that cyclists are getting allowed in at all because she doesn’t like them. Is she providing studies that show mountain biking does irreparable damage to trails? She states that the city commissioners are catering to the demands of cyclists and yet I don’t think one mountain biker would even think they are doing that. She sounds fanatical in her language and accusations, offers no room for negotiation and has, in fact, basically stopped progress on allowing any more cycling opportunities in Forest Park.

Eric
Guest
Eric

if there was damage, maybe there could be photos of said damage. A few shallow tire tracks in a poorly drained section of trail are hardly evidence of damage

Brian
Guest
Brian

I would like to know where the photo was taken so I can explore. Some more information would be great, Marcie. Thank you.

L
Guest
L

So Marcy Houle is an “activist” (isn’t she also an author and a biologist?), huh? Doest that make Jonathan an activist (isn’t he also a journalist?)…I think it’s time for Jonathan to interview Marcy face to face. Otherwise all the same comments and vitriol get bandied about and nothing gets accomplished except a whole bunch of elevated blood pressure and name calling.

Alex
Guest
Alex

I don’t see a contradiction between her being an activist and any other thing she does. People are not simply defined by 1 or 2 words and play many roles depending on the situation. Marcy has actively been involved in these committees, voicing her opinion very publicly and creating tension in the community – I would call that an activist. Simply reporting on something does not make one an activist.

Jonathan can interview her all he wants and she can say whatever she wants, but what matters is her actions. She has proven time and again to not be at all reasonable on this subject. I think her letter above clearly illustrates that. It seems you are in the minority who doesn’t get that sense from it.

singletrackmind
Guest
singletrackmind

Jonathan, I second the call for a Marcy interview! If she is so bold as to write hysterical open letters (and remember her spam reply-all to Mike Abbate’s email?) then she surely will be willing to discuss this matter with a journalist. I’m sure you could come up with questions which are less inflammatory than where I’d start:

How do you define damage to a trail? (in regard to the wheel tracks which are no deeper than the footprints)

In what specific ways do those tracks affect the safety of other users, and the ecological integrity of the park?

What is your evidence that those are bike tracks (and not a stroller)?

Do you realize that mud is caused by rain, and not by bicycles?

Have you ever been to an actual designated Wilderness Area?

Do you realize that the rogue users (assuming they really are bicyclists) have nothing to do with the current advocacy efforts put forth by responsible cyclists?

Have you ever considered that allowing cyclists to build new trails to ride in Forest Park will get them OFF of your precious hiker-only trails?

What is the backstory on how bicycles became your windmill to tilt at?

Brian
Guest
Brian

Perhaps a spokesperson for the mountain bike perspective could be included in the interview? Maybe someone from IMBA or NWTA?

f5
Guest
f5

The sad irony is that while appearing on OPB’s Oregon Field Guide episode about Zumwalt Prairie, she was a modicum of an open-minded, progressive-thinking environmentalist who was willing to try new approaches to working with ranchers and saw a positive effect on the prairie as a result.

In regards to her position on forest park trails and her reported actions in the trails comittee, she’s been nothing but a closed-minded obstructionist. If she employed even 1% of the intelligent thinking she’s devoted to Zumwalt Prairie, she wouldn’t be emailing around these silly photos of tire tracks. I’m guessing she hasn’t seen the hiker damage to lower macleay lately.

q'Tzal
Guest
q'Tzal

Wanna turn this story on its head?
Wanna score big bike PR points for cycling and MTB trail riding in Portland?

Instead of “Adopt a Highway” we need to “Adopt a Trail” or “Adopt a Park”.
Somewhere amongst our numbers are qualified ecologists and park ranger types.
They could go out weekly or more frequently as needed to direct the efforts of us unskilled overenthusiastic volunteers in keeping our impacts as minimal as possible.
And as a side effect of having more eyes on the scene scofflaws of all stripes might be encouraged to scoff elsewhere.

007
Guest
007

No excuses. Do not ride in Forest Park where it is not allowed. It ticks me off, too. I walk or jog the Wildwood Trail now and then and I used to ride in the park all the time.
Please observe the rules and respect that the park is for everyone.

Pete
Guest
Pete

We have ‘properly built’ hiking and biking trails on Mission Peaks in SF’s east bay (Fremont), and the mountain bikers are some of the most active in helping the rangers repair and prevent ‘rogue trails” that cause the most damage – rain erosion. According to the rangers, who aren’t bikers and don’t often have the best to say about them, most of the rogue trails are caused by errant, lazy, and scofflaw hikers who ignore the signs. We’ve asked them, and it’s their opinion that hiking and biking cause equivalent damage. One of the better-educated rangers that I’ve volunteered with has said it’s not necessarily about the ‘vehicle’ used on the trail but the actual course of the trail itself (with respect to control of water flow).

Marcy Houle
Guest
Marcy Houle

Dear Editor Jonathon Maus,

Thank you! Thank You! Thank You!

By publishing my letter, you have successfully raised peoples’ awareness of Forest Park that I had only ever hoped to achieve. Out of six letters previously written to the Park’s Commissioner never have I received a response, until now. The fact that you were able to obtain this letter–written to the Park Commissioner and City Council– and publish it, gives me hope. I now know my previous letters had been received.

Perhaps now we can have an open discussion to the issues facing our Forest Park and raise people’s awareness also about off-leash dogs, invasive plants, and decaying infrastructure.

Sincerely,

Marcy Houle

Alex
Guest
Alex

I think people have been painfully aware of the challenges that have faced Forest Park (including you). In fact, we have turned out en masse to talk about it and have been met with nothing but disregard from you. It seems like you are just trying to milk publicity from Bark on the Timberline issue. If you want to contribute to the conversation, please contribute, but don’t act like we haven’t been here engaging the issue in any sort of way that was not “open”.

SameSide
Guest
SameSide

Dear Ms. Houle,

As you’ve no doubt observed on this page and elsewhere over the past decade or so, many of your actions ostensibly in defense of Forest Park and pertaining to bicycles have not been well received. While I personally accept that you are acting primarily and sincerely toward the goal of preserving and protecting Forest Park, I would ask that you not dismiss the concerns of those who are questioning you.

Your critics – undoubtedly comprised overwhelmingly of responsible, conservation-minded members of the community much like yourself – seem to be quite insistent that when it comes to your view on bicycles you have an unfortunately myopic view that is actually working at cross purposes with your stated goal of long-term preservation of Forest Park. I ask you to step back for a moment and consider that fellow members of the community who are equally and sincerely committed to Forest Park’s conservation have in fact identified a blind spot in your view of what is truly best for the future of the park. And that blind spot may be especially obscured to you because it happens to coincide with what seems to be a strong personal objection that you have to the idea of sharing trails with fellow park users who might like to enjoy at least some parts of Forest Park by bicycle.

If you believe that your critics are unlike you. and that their goal is the destruction or degradation of Forest Park, then you will undoubtedly continue in your campaign against the sharing of trails. If, on the other hand, you are able to see and acknowledge the common vision that you share with your fellow park visitors, I hope you’ll begin to agree that mutual respect, reasonable accommodation and responsible management are much more likely to benefit Forest Park than the animosity, obstructionism and inflammatory rhetoric that have damaged the very community upon which Forest Park depends for it’s long term preservation.

Brian
Guest
Brian

Very, very well said. Please consider sending this directly to Ms. Houle, as well as Mike Abate at Portland Parks and Rec. and the City Council. It would be great for them to hear from some other voices.
Thanks for taking the time to write this reply.

wsbob
Guest
wsbob

SameSide…in your comment, your effort to carefully avoid using phrases ‘mountain biking’ and/or ‘off-road biking’ to more specifically describe the type of bicycling it would seem you have in mind, is very apparent.

Using euphemisms, rather than the actual term for a given activity, to soft-sell something…here, a type of biking…mountain biking, or off-road biking…that people may be increasingly aware is fundamentally contrary to the reason Forest Park was created, is a dubious strategy for winning people over to a position or plan they oppose. If they don’t already know, once they catch on to what you’re really talking about, and realize it’s not quite the wonderful thing you’re working to have them think it is…watch out.

You’re evasive about naming who it is you’re referring to, when you use the word ‘community’, although most likely, once again you’re referring to mountain bikers/off-road bikers. Mountain bikers expressing themselves in comments to this thread, appear to have one fundamental objective above all others, relative to the park, which is to have Forest Park, a nature park, be used for mountain biking.

Most characteristics of mountain biking/off-road biking, or aspects of this type of vehicular travel, are, as I mentioned before, fundamentally contrary to the purpose for which nature parks such as Forest Park, were created. I’d guess Houle understands this, which may be the underlying reason above all others, she opposes having the park used for mountain biking.

SameSide
Guest
SameSide

WSOB:

Perhaps I can offer you an improved definition of the word “dubious.” The incessant and shrill use of terms like “usurped,” “devastation,” “ruined,” “safety,” “incredible damage,” “rampant vandalism” and “destruction” is little more than irresponsible hyperbole intended to divert attention away from a legitimate, thoughtful and fact-based discussion of Forest Park management. Then turning around and accusing others of somehow hiding behind code words like “cycling” and “community” is…well…dubious at best. If I am avoiding terms like “mountain bike,” it’s simply because you and Ms. Houle have spent so much time and effort attempting to demonize a particular group of trail users that I think it’s sometimes useful to avoid language that might distract from the core of the discussion.

Most pernicious are your and Ms. Houle’s attempts to divide the Forest Park community in an effort to pursue your own personal vision of what’s best for the park. You think I’m somehow “evasive” by not buying into your “us vs. them” view of the park’s constituency. Well, here’s a riddle for you: I spend vastly more time enjoying Forest Park by foot than I do by bicycle. Which label would you like me to use – hiker or mountain biker? I also go there often with my child. Maybe I should just be labeled “parent” and I should contrive an agenda that sets me and other parents apart from the rest of the park’s visitors. “Forest Park community” is EXACTLY the language and the reality that I see and want to promote – not because it somehow obscures legitimate management concerns but because it recognizes the only possible way to address and resolve real-world issues.

Finally, your assertion that mountain biking is “fundamentally contrary to the reason Forest Park was created” is a curious one. Are you telling me that Forest Park was not intended for the quiet, non-motorized, human-powered, human-scale, responsible enjoyment of park visitors?

wsbob
Guest
wsbob

“…your assertion that mountain biking is “fundamentally contrary to the reason Forest Park was created” is a curious one. Are you telling me that Forest Park was not intended for the quiet, non-motorized, human-powered, human-scale, responsible enjoyment of park visitors?” SameSide

I’m contending that Forest Park was established as a respite for people and a refuge for wildlife and nature from things that bring with them, the commotion of city life such as vehicles, which includes bicycles, and other machines.

“…accusing others of somehow hiding behind code words like “cycling” and “community” …” SameSide

Here’s what bikeportland’s editor-publisher wrote in this story:

“…Houle is concerned by steps being taken by Director Abbate to improve bicycle access in Forest Park. …” maus/bikeportland

I haven’t said maus is hiding behind code words. I have said he’s used euphemisms to refer to efforts to have the park be used for mountain biking. It appears he’s trying to soft-sell efforts to have Forest Park be used for mountain biking. As you may well know, in political settings, it’s called ‘spin’.

Allowing Forest Park to be used for mountain biking, is not improving bike access in Forest Park…access which already exists in easily accessible form on forest roads within the park: Allowing Forest Park to be used for mountain biking…and by that, I mean on ‘single track’, i.e. single width trail, would be expanding use of the park for vehicular activity that is contrary to the purpose for which the park was established.

Off-road bikers are the ones that are trying to make the case to unpersuaded Portland residents and others, and city officials including the director of parks, that using Forest Park for mountain biking would be a wonderful thing: So let them make the case. So far, they haven’t.

SameSide
Guest
SameSide

Haven’t made the case? Mountain biking has been demonstrated over and over and over again to be an essentially safe, responsible, quiet, human-powered, wildlife-safe, enjoyable, manageable, sustainable “respite” from the “commotion” of city life. Hence it’s popularity. The commotion of a bicycle yielding to a hiker – or rolling past after a pleasant ‘hello’ – is essentially no greater than the commotion of encountering another hiker. On the other hand, the “commotion” it creates in some people’s imaginations is indeed limitless.

You wrote: “Allowing Forest Park to be used for mountain biking, is not improving bike access in Forest Park…access which already exists in easily accessible form on forest roads within the park.” If you believe that, then you’ll have no objection to excluding all foot traffic from singeltrack trails as well. After all, the entire park would remain “..easily accessible on forest roads within the park.”

Mike Vandeman
Guest

“Mountain biking has been demonstrated over and over and over again to be an essentially safe, responsible, quiet, human-powered, wildlife-safe, enjoyable, manageable, sustainable ‘respite’ from the ‘commotion’ of city life.” HOGWASH. Where’s the beef? The only that has supported mountain biking’s claims has turned out to be junk science conducted by mountain bikers — a transparent attempt to greenwash mountain biking. It’s revealing that you don’t cite a single reference to back up your claim — because you CAN’T! Show us the beef! You won’t, because you can’t.

Alex
Guest
Alex

Where is Forest Park legally considered a “nature park”? Or is this just a term you are now using to try to elevate its status when you speak?

julie
Guest
julie

Imagine how much more beautiful this city would be if Marcy would turn away from the mountain bikers, and focus her keen attention to cleaning up all the cigarette smoking and cigarette litter!!! Now that would really change life for all Portland residents.

Ryan
Guest
Ryan

The biggest problem with the park are the people with unleashed dogs. A lot of people don’t like dogs, are afraid of them. Why do these idiots get to let their dogs off the leash when the signs clearly say they must be on a leash? Next time a huge ass lab comes bounding up the trail and jumps on me it’s going to get a blast of pepperspray in the face.

Marid
Guest
Marid

’cause that would work out really well. I bet you’d make some friends.

are
Guest

why punish the dog for the sins of the master

pdxbikeworm
Guest
pdxbikeworm

I’ve been hiking the Wildwood Trail since – well, since before it was the Wildwood Trail and kind of petered out the further west it went into plastic flags, ax marks on trees, and creek beds! There was a time when the worst damage was from motorcycles, not human cycles. Bottom line – its a big park, and, yes, some parts of it have been damaged by mountain bikes, as well as off trail hiking, illegal dumping, partying (anyone remember the keggers up at “Inspiration Point”?), etc…. I think that mountain bikes can cause damage, and have caused damage. I think people with heavy hiking shoes can also cause damage. I also think that we can all needlessly point fingers at each other and engage in breathless hyperbole about what’s happening to MY park as opposed to OUR park and not really solve anything. I also agree that Forest Park is not “old growth forest”, however, it is an important refuge for wildlife.

I think its a big enough park to accommodate all of our needs, including wildlife, if we intelligently collaborate on how to meet those needs. I think a good start would recognize that there are fire lane and LE Drive that can accommodate bikes; that the currently constructed hiking trails for the most part can’t; to stop riding on trails not designed for the usage; and to start advocating and discussing ways we can build trails that can accommodate that usage. I believe its a big enough park that this can be done in a manner that does not overtly impact the parks function as a refuge for wildlife. As I say, its a big park!

Lets get to work!

Shoalolo
Guest
Shoalolo

You’re a little late; been going on, much as you described, for years. Nothing to show for it.

Hugh Johnson
Guest
Hugh Johnson

If this was damage done by motorized vehicles, this forum would all be on her side. But bikes? Ha we’re not responsible for anything.

Shoalolo
Guest
Shoalolo

Get real. You’re talking about “damage” no deeper than that left by shoes and paws.

Brian
Guest
Brian

I rode from my house over to Forest park yesterday. I started my descent at the top of Firelane 5 (where Marcy Houle opposes the current improvements being proposed for mountain bikers). It was a total mess. It has been degrading for some time, and unfortunately is the only option for riders to get to their 1/3 of a legal mile of fun trail. It is in dire need of repair, which I believe mountain bikers are willing to do for free. It can be narrowed, naturalized, and built to withstand the rain and erosion.
The section of Firelane 5 we built; however, was in great shape despite receiving a HIGH concentration of riders. All it will take is one work party to dial back in to perfect shape after the long Winter of riding it. It is a testament to the expert trail-building skills that mountain bikers possess. I even encountered a hiker who was heading up the trail. We exchanged pleasantries on a beautiful, sunny day and went on our merry ways on our preferred mode of travel. Great day!
I look forward to building more trail there, and being able to “Ride to Where I Ride.”

wsbob
Guest
wsbob

If you’re saying Firelane 5 has degraded to the point of impassibility…which seems unlikely, since you apparently made it over the road…by mountain bikes and larger vehicles for which the road has been built to allow use of…then if you and your fellow mountain bikers feel so inclined…fix it.

Your description of the road’s condition, your suggestion that your friends could affect repairs, suggests it’s not in particularly bad shape. Nobody’s going to complain if you throw some branches off the road, or fill in a low spot here and there as needed to create a clear track on the road for easy mountain bike passage.

Brian
Guest
Brian

I’m not saying that.

L
Guest
L

Unfortunately fire lanes can’t be “narrowed and naturalized” if their purpose is to accommodate fire fighting apparatus. I encounter bikers now and again when I am running or hiking on FL 5. The exchanges are always happy ones.

Bjorn
Guest
Bjorn

I have tried to contact her for a tour. I have gotten no response. Has anyone else gotten a response. I don’t think that her offer to show the damage was real, perhaps because the damage is either not where she claims or as bad as she claims.