I don’t usually re-post stories that are flying around the Internet, but two recent stories deserve attention for the level of indifference and callousness they show toward people on bikes.
The first story comes from Tucson Arizona. The snip below is from a story posted on CNN.com yesterday:
“A judge sentenced a woman to nearly the maximum prison term for negligent homicide after hearing a recorded jail conversation in which she made light of the bicyclist she killed…
During the conversation, the man told Arrington that an acquaintance believed she should get a medal and a parade because she had “taken out” a “tree hugger, a bicyclist, a Frenchman and a gay guy all in one shot.”
Arrington laughed. When the man said he knew it was a terrible thing to say, she responded, “No, it’s not.””
[You can listen to the audio of the phone call here.]
I didn’t even plan to post that one until someone sent me another shocking bit of news. This time, from Spain. As reported in a U.K. newspaper:
“A Spanish driver who fatally collided with a cyclist is suing the dead youth’s family 20,000 Euros for the damage the impact of his body did to his luxury car, a Spanish newspaper reported…
“I’m also a victim in all of this, you can’t fix the lad’s problems, but you can fix mine,” Delgado told the newspaper…
“This was the final straw, a kick in the teeth,” the youth’s mother Rosa Trinidad told El Pais.”
Wow.
In the words of the reader who sent me one of the stories, “We work so hard to make cycling safer, what can you say?”
Thanks for reading.
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So what\’s the reward for taking out drunk white trash then?
you inherit their beer and shotgun collection, and maybe their truck.
sucks, huh?
That level of inhumanity is truly dumbfounding. It just reinforces the importance of punishing the behavior for which these people are so flippant.
But it\’s not only motorists toward bicyclists. It\’s everywhere in the world. Check out this quote from Andrew, #36 in response to the Bike Militia post:
\”…I revel in watching this type of treadmill frustration result in brief and un-needed beating by Portland Police…\” Not to mention the wackos raving about their firearm hard-on.
When are people going to learn that violence solves nothing?
a.O @3
We\’re all waiting for your plan to eliminate violence from the world.
Oh right.
Don\’t be a victim, fight back.
Also, thanks for trying to marginalize those who prefer to protect themselves from armed psychopaths of all stripes,….
****The rest of this comment has been deleted because of a wildly inappropriate insult…
Robert and everyone else… PLEASE NOTE: I have not worked extremely hard to create this space so that you can all have a place to have childish, schoolyard bully-type fights. Come on folks, if you don\’t have something nice to say about someone, please say nothing at all and just stick to the topics. Critiques are fine, but there\’s an intelligent way to communicate and personal insults and arguing back and forth just to get the last word in is lame…Thanks – The Editor*** (p.s. I am responding this way not just because of this thread but several others recently.)
Nice Robert – if you cannot curb violence, make more! Rah rah rah!
Or did you mean fight in a non-violent way, like pen vs. sword style?
Or are you just a good thread flammer?
Truly sad.
My wife, back in her messenger days, was hit by a guy from out of town while he was driving his rental car. The accident was completely his fault, he apologetically admitted as much; but that did not stop the rental company from going after her for damage to the car.
We get what we deserve unfortunately. I\’m talking about us as a nation. We elect meaningless politicians who cede power to the executive no matter what camp they pretend to belong to. We accept and elect people who turn a blind eye to our freedoms while giving lip service to upholding them. We condone illegal wars overseas that have no purpose or end. We ignore blatant lies from those in power and embrace election year politicking as meaningful. We still believe in impossible Gods of all persuasions despite overwhelming evidence and argument to the contrary while encouraging our elected officials and the populace to embrace their questionable moral systems. We embrace trash tv and Hollywood as culture. We let our competitiveness and educational system decline while sending dollars overseas and watching as our infrastructure crumbles because we don\’t want to pay to keep it up. And we complain that we pay too much in taxes while corporations get carte blanche to overwork and underpay average citizens under the guise of being pro-American….
So that woman\’s attitudes shouldn\’t surprise anyone, I guess….
\”When are people going to learn that violence solves nothing?\”
I find it interesting that you make that demonstrably false statement in English rather than, say, German.
Perhaps violence isn\’t always the best solution, but sometimes it the only solution. Sad that you can only see violence in black or white terms.
To return to the thread topic, It is wise for us to remember that not everyone looks at their neighbors as kindly as we do.
Hey Robert #5,
You said, \”you limp-wrist douche.\”
Keep the homophobic insults off of this site. We don\’t need this here. At all.
edjukator: Make more? I\’m talking about self-defense here, which is a point that is clearly being missed.
I believe that extreme members of the left who continually blast its members who do support the right to defend themselves discredits the group as a whole. Rather get your face stomped to show how true to your ideals you are? Go right ahead. I\’m taking a more traditional approach, thank you very much.
As far as I\’m concerned, until a.O. waves his magic wand and pacifies the world, us peaceniks have some rather violent people that we have to occasionally contend with.
It\’s clearly winter time and everyone really has run out of constructive things to do. Sigh.
tonyt @10,
I was referring to his inability to hold a handgun – didn\’t realize he was gay, sorry.
Heinlein on a bike?
Anyway, Robert–chill.
Robert,
I didn\’t say he was gay. But attempting to insult someone by referring to them as limp-wristed is homophobic on its face. It is an insult to equate being gay (and don\’t even tell me that that isn\’t what \”limp-wristed\” means) with being unable to defend oneself.
The gay-as-insult equation is something that you perhaps need to grow out of.
In the Dec 27th London Times an editorial appeared where the author advoactes stringing wire accross the bike path head high.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article3097464.ece
Surely it was meant to be satire, but it was funny like cancer.
Robert Dobbs,
\”I was referring to his inability to hold a handgun – didn\’t realize he was gay, sorry.\”
That\’s bullshit. You and everyone else who read your precipitating comment know what you meant and it had NOTHING to do with whether a.O. could successfully hold a handgun.
tonyt @15
Uh, I will tell you what limp-wrist means to me, it is someone who is unwilling to defend themselves. It has nothing to do who you prefer to go to bed with. There is another word that describes this, but I opted not to use it.
Why don\’t you untie your panties (whoops!) and chill. a.O. called me a whacko, and you had your own invectives. Least of which was calling me a bigot, which is always seems to be the slur de jour of the weak-minded. Yawn…
drama!!!!
arguing on the internet is like winning the special olympics, in the end your still a retard. – anonymous
What are you trying to prove Robert? That you\’re a tough guy writing posts to a blog? That those who believe violence begets vioence are pussies? What is the point? Chill out and have a beer.
We\’ve turned into a nation of apathetic people. As long as something isn\’t hapening to us directly, it doesn\’t matter.
Evidence: any TV show about crime and drama. Any so-called \”reality\” show on TV.
Evidence: It takes a natural disaster of fairly epic proportions for people to help strangers; or, it takes a major year-end quasi-religious holiday to inspire charitable giving, and then it\’s mostly to get a tax deduction, not for the good it does for others.
And why is anyone surprised at this? Why is anyone surprised at the actions of the people in Jonathan\’s article? I agree with the judge in the AZ case, it\’s breathtaking, this lack of regard for another person\’s life.
We\’ve also turned into a nation that needs daily drama to get by. Even made-up drama on the internet. Get over it, people.
Be the change you want to see in the world.
@Kristen #22:
\”Be the change you want to see in the world.\”
I\’ve never really understood what that means.
That said, I\’ll pile on:
\”People are the worst.\”
——————-
@Robert Dobbs
Thanks for making things interesting again.
Welcome to Tucson!
While motorist/bike/pedestrian collisions are far from rare, it\’s unusual to see the public outcry that this case has generated. We generally like to pretend that such things would never happen here, after all, we want to be a \”Platinum award\” city. This woman\’s attitude isn\’t all that unusual in our car/pickup/hummer oriented city. I\’d like to think that the publicity will help make motorists more aware of their surroundings….but I\’m not holding my breath.
One thing to keep in mind: these more outlandish kinds of incidents are NOT the real problem. The real problem is the 40,000 road deaths a year caused by drivers who are mostly NOT drunk nor especially grotesquely sociopathic. This stuff is kind of a distraction from the REAL problem: people take driving a motor vehicle for granted in this society, instead of the deadly serious operation of hazardous heavy machinery that it is.
Yet another comment thread spun off into unrelated topics by one person making insulting, derogatory, or incendiary remarks. It\’s your site Jonathan, and you are great about accepting a wide range of commentary, but many sites have had to deal with incendiary commenters before (bojack.org, roadbikereview.com as examples)… sometimes beginning with warnings and temporary bans, sometimes just total bans.
It\’s not about squelching alternative views, it\’s about maintaining decorum and civility in an on-going community. It\’s not a job I\’d want, either as a board moderator or as as a bloggger, but sometimes the distraction of unfettered commentary detracts from the benefit of coming to such a great site.
Welcome to the internet.
I\’d seen the first story. I wish it\’d shocked me I guess. The second one I hadn\’t heard about. It\’s kind of the bike version of the guy who gets sued by the home robber for attacking him when the robber broke into the guys house.
As for the tenor of the comment section: I still read the site every day, but I just don\’t post much anymore. It\’s become infested with all the internet message board stereotypes.
I think you should consider removing the comment section, or having to sign up to post and have that account linked to something like an ISP # or other identifying marker so someone can\’t just spam on a new account every time you cancel one.
Dear Editor,
This Robert Dobbs person is a troll. Ban him.
Sincerely,
A Fan
I second that. His comments make my skin crawl.
Robert Dobbs isn\’t a troll, he\’s just voicing a concern and opinion that varies from your way of approaching the problem.
It\’s actually a good idea, moving to a sign-in basis for posting. Required everyone to have an account and post a picture of themselves… Develop a reputation system where by people can gain cred from the quality of their contributions. Something like Yelp has… That\’s cut down on the crap right away. I\’m imagining some ability to filter the comments to only individuals that have a given quality level to their posts…
I think re-posting these stories from CNN the Mail here is only going to solicit the responses we\’ve seen here. Its a little too shock-tabloid like to expect a balanced discourse to follow. (In fact one of the headlines today from the Mail is also that lip stick can increase your bust size….)
Maybe not the best material to keep spreading – they may not meet the standards this site sets.
Agreed, I usually go to http://www.fark.com for this type of story.
You really just show your own adherence to stereotypes of gay men by saying that calling someone a \”limp-wristed douche\” is homophobic.
Someone once checked my wrists to see how strong they were when I told them I rode bikes. So, limp-wristed could also refer to someone who doesn\’t ride a bike. Not that I condone the use of that phrase anyway.
Back to the topic….
I am not condoning the motor vehicle operator\’s position, but don\’t laugh folks, it could happen here. The cyclist (or Person On Bike)was riding at night without reflective equipment or helmet. No mention of lights. Couldn\’t a lawyer type just have fun with that?
Be safe folks, see and be seen!
If I get killed on a bike I want my estate\’s lawyer to be able to say \”ladies and gentlemen of the jury, how on earth could (driver) not have seen him, he was riding legally, fully reflectorizied, bright colored clothing, and lit up like a Christmas tree! The driver was clearly 100% at fault and negligent!\”
one word.. * sad *
I\’m reminded of the VA woman hit by a cop car jumping the red light while she was still in the intersection, who was billed for the Haz-Mat fee for the romoval of her skull contents from said cop car.
I think the gist of what robert was saying is that he will indeed protect himself from being assaulted by a motorist. If his idea of protection is a glock, so be it. This is not something i condon, yet he does have a point.
I dont think alot of motorists in the heat of the moment will slow down and consider the long term consequences of their actions. I tend to think that towards the drivers out there that would consider commiting these crimes. And since there seems to me no real \”enforced\” law against a cowardly deed such as this. What is the consequence, when a driver can use the \”I Didnt See Him\” excuse?
If a driver thinks just for a second that there will be, could be, a gun involved, that driver will not proceed.
I think this is what Robert (in his insulting right wing way) was trying to say.
He does have point though. Its amazing the change in a menacing drivers attitude when a Kryto lock is brought into the mix. Yet this is only my own experience and opinon.
I will not insult others for theirs.
These stories remind me of when it was legal to kill a black man for being on your property. I\’m glad that I believe in karma.
Please do not take my comment out of context. There was a time in our not too distant past, where the law would turn it\’s ear away from such horrific things without holding people responsible.
Beefa, (comment #40)maybe you might consider that some drivers are not inclined to be so passive and will decide to proceed to carry weapons if they are led to believe a trend is moving towards other drivers carrying weapons to reinforce their compulsive bullying tendencies. This is the sort of behavioral shift people such as Robert Dobbs…(author of numerous posts above advising cyclists to carry concealed weapons)…are proposing.
I hope that most people will not consider this to be a good idea. We already have real life ongoing examples of Dobb\’s reasoning going on right now, here in Portland and other big cities amongst gang culture. Those people reject or have given up on the hope for a civil society. Instead, they surrender to anxiety and paranoia, and start packing guns, so they\’re \’prepared\’. Chaos ensues.
There are better ways to deal with road rage.
Wsbob. Your point is \”violence begets violence\”? I agree, if it is.
But another way to look at it is this. If the \”bullys\” are going to always be \”bullys\” why not protect yourself accordingly?
One thing about Bullys, If you give back what they give, it takes their power away. Or another way to put it is, If you do not back down, you take the only real power they have. That being Intimidation.
So my point is, why not stand up for myself? Brandish the u lock and be serious about defending myself? Why should I let some jerk in a H2 take away from me my dignity, because I ride a bike?
If only once, a Biker will stand up to one of these hooligans, it will give them great pause in the future. I wholly stand by that train of thought.
I\’m not promoting gang culture. I\’m not advocating having all cyclist packin heat. What I am indeed saying is that cyclist in general should not be afraid to take our rightfull, and equal place in this society.
If in asserting these rights I have to scare the shit out of a H2 driver in the proccess, so be it.
I am responsable for my own immediate saftey on the road.
Turning the other cheek will only leave me with two black eyes.
(I\’ve never pluralized bully before sorry for the SP)
yes, there are better ways to deal with road rage, like getting punched in the face.
All the in-fighting in the comments aside, I am glad these stories were brought to light here. I thought it was only my significant other who is on a high horse about cyclists infringing on his rights as a motorist. He and I go round and round about it. There is always an us vs. them tone to his pro motorist arguments. I fear this is across the board. I have tried reasoning with him. He doesn\’t give an inch. He doesn\’t want to kill a cyclist but he certainly can go on for a half an hour about how cyclists should be given a ticket when they don\’t stop at intersections..blah blah!
I started reading this thread, but got so frustrated I skipped to the end.
I just have to say that the name-calling, insults and callous disregard for the opinions of others serves as an appropriate counterpoint to the original story. If this is the way we behave as a species, we don\’t deserve to survive.
Things are rarely clear-cut, or absolute. a_O, while I respect your opinions very much, violence solves a LOT of problems, just not very well. In most cases, it causes problems that were worse than the original. Taoism recommends the appropriate action at the appropriate time, which includes violence as a means of last resort, and only in the appropriate situation at the appropriate time. Never using it EVER is a big a fallacy as using it to solve every problem.
Robert Dobbs (church of the subgenius? Is that a pseudonym or your real name?), your arguments either stand on their own merit or they don\’t. beefa (#44) made some good points referencing your arguments – everyone needs to decide for themself what their level of response is, if any. I haven\’t seen anyone argue to take away your right to defend YOURSELF – I\’ve only seen them argue that they won\’t choose your choices. The failure of some to support your point of view does not equal them actively working to take YOUR rights away. Something you might consider: Stop treating everyone who disagrees with you as your enemy until they actually become one.
Respectfully,
-matt p
Beefa, I\’m not suggesting you not defend yourself, but have concerns with the means you might be tempted to resort to, if that happens to be a gun. I\’m suggesting that you, me and everyone else\’s efforts are better exerted towards reinforcing and maintaining a standard of public conduct that doesn\’t require people in general to commonly carry guns on their person.
Maybe I didn\’t clearly make a distinction before between guns and weapons in general. Well definitely, people should not just sit passively when someone decides to walk up and whack them on the head with an aluminum baseball bat or any other weapon. Of course, we should all stand up and defend ourselves in response to people that fail to control their anger and threaten us with bodily harm.
I just happen to believe there are better ways to go about that than encouraging everybody on a bike to strap on a pistol and be prepared to shoot it out with some bald-head goof in a Hummer…on a well-lit friendly shopping neighborhood street. It does not seem that the level of random violence in our society has risen to the point where people in general need to equip themselves for this kind of occurrence.
Of course, if you happen to be a person commonly finding themselves in a situations where a weapon such as gun is called for in order to reasonably defend yourself, by all means, do so if that\’s your only reasonable option. Once again though, I don\’t see, in terms of the tone of people\’s interactions with each other today, that such means are called for as the commenter Robert Dobbs would seem to suggest.
Keeping in mind the reported details of the incident, if the dude in the royal Blue Hummer H2 had threatened you, and you had your U-Lock in hand, or your gun perhaps, how would you have responded? Would you have simply shaken it at him as he sat driving alongside you in the Hummer? As he attempted to squeeze you into parked cars, would you have struck the Hummer with the U-lock, or with the gun, attempted to point it at the driver while you both were still in motion?
What do you think the chances are that he would have been intimidated by those kinds of gestures on your part, and driven away? I\’ve got a definite view of drivers like the one reported to have been responsible for the incident with the blue Hummer. As far as I\’m concerned, they\’re at best, unstable, and possibly psychologically imbalanced…crazy. They may have very little of the kind of self restraint that you can expect from most people. Anybody taking on such a person face to face had better be prepared to go the whole route with them.
In this case, the Hummer driver allegedly kept following the cyclist, finally stopped, got out of his vehicle, walked up to the cyclist and struck the cyclist with his hand and knocked him over. O.K., had the cyclist been equipped with a gun, he may have been able to pull the weapon, point it at the driver and arrest the course of events that took place. What might have happened if the driver had his own weapon? Do you really think some moron that goes around intimidating cyclists with a vehicle like a Hummer does not have a gun? It may likely have been that the only reason the Hummer driver didn\’t appear with a gun is because he was thoroughly confident that a cyclist wouldn\’t have one.
There are people that probably need to carry guns for protection. I just don\’t see that it\’s advisable yet for everyone to be carrying them around.
Jeff way up there I dont know you but Wow do we think alike.This women is serving ten years for hitting this cyclist,No its for upsetting a judge,clearly had this conversation never happened she would have proably received a ticket for $242.00 or whatever it is in that state. so all of the cyclist killers out there know \”Pretend \” to be \”sad\” and get off show remorse so that the powers that be can feel good about giving such a lenient sentence and sleep at night \”poor judges\” ONE LESS CAR LEE
wsbob
Like i said earlier. I am not advocating people carry guns. Cyclist, and indeed people in general should stand up to those who feel the need to take out their frustrations on others.
What are you saying wsbob? I understand that you would like society to be a more harmonious place. I would like that also.
But you have to realize that society has its ugly elements. If confronting those that would do harm to me and my family is escalating the violence level in our society, so be it. I will not crawl into a fetal position and hope it goes away.
This goes back to my earlier point. I have the responsibility for my own safety. In the short term. If indeed I need to protect myself with my u lock, I will.
As far as the situation with the H2. I do not know what i would have done. I was not there. Yet I have been in a similar situation in the past, in which a driver tried to run me into a parked car, got out with a baseball bat(this one was wooden) and came at me after I pulled onto the sidewalk. This guy was obviously ready to take it to me. But because I took out my u lock, his demeanor changed pretty quickly when he realized I was not going to be a easy target. He got back in his car and left.
So you see wsbob. I confronted a bully, and as any bully, they backed down. I was not escalating violence in our society. I\’ll even put it to you that cyclist may be a little safer. for this guy may think twice about going after what he once thought was easy prey.