Oregonian wants to "call off the cell phone ban"

exactly: why should anyone’s safety trump some yuppie’s right to talk to his dog back home while he drives?

i say this as both a yuppie and cell phone lover, who’s sick of seeing people killed by cell phone-using drivers.

I can’t expect the Oregonian to favor anything besides their right-wing, conservative agenda. I doubt there’s a single person at the Oregonian that commutes by bike.

I have heard of many studies that put the effect of driving while phoning at EQUAL to that of being legally drunk.

And here’s the thing that backers of the law (which allows headsets) are blissfully ignoring. It does NOT matter whether you are using a hand phone or a headset, the statistical effect is the same. NO difference!

The law as stands is nothing more than window dressing. It will end the visage of driving while holding a phone to one’s head, but won’t end the problem.

I had an encounter on N. Williams with a woman driving a Cherokee while yaking on her phone. She passed me I was in the bike lane, then turned right, right in front of me. I hit the brakes, turned right with her and slammed my fist on the hood. We came to a halt with me straddling my bike in front of her car. We had a decidedly one way conversation about the right-of-way of those in a bike lanes and the importance of full-attention while driving. She was quite remorseful.

Ironically, I was on my way home to sign the release papers and get a check from the insurance company of a woman who ran a red light and hit me. No phone involved in that one.

So,
It is obvious to me that the sited percentage of wrecks that involve cell phones is skewed due to the fact that people will not admit to, and in the case of my car/ bike accident, lie about being on the cell phone during an accident.
Even though the phone records will show that they were on the phone, as it did in my case, it appears to not matter.
Neither does dark, hipster, not your prescription, but prescription sunglasses
for that matter.

On another note, a cell phone ban will entirely slow down, and decimate the daily habits and working ethic of the average bike messenger, a service which the whole city heavily relies on.
If we were not connected by ordinance to motor vehicles, this would not be a problem.
But, we are…

Great point JayS,

I agree that cyclists are sometimes just as guilty. But just like the drunk driving issue and the stop sign issue…should we have different laws because our vehicles are so different?

That’s the big question.

And Dabby, I hadn’t thought of that but you’re exactly right…if they extended this to bicycles, messengers would be through.

I wonder if bicycles have come under more scrutiny in the states where the cell phone ban has passed?

What’s interesting about the Oregonian, is that back in October 2005 they published this very pro-bike editorial.

I don’t think it’s a matter of them not liking bikes. Maybe they just don’t see the connection between distracted driving and the safety of cyclists.

pdxrunner,
I hope you are joking about that comment on The O.

If not I fear for you.

PS. I’d estimate the number of people driving with cell phones to be somewhere between 5-10%. How are accidents less than that? How many times can you sit at a red light with five cars and none of them are on the phone? Never happens.

Here’s the link that provided that original statistic:
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/TD/TDATA/car/docs/2005_SummaryBook_opt.pdf

By their logic, alcohol-related accidents surely don’t merit special laws, with only 2.5% of accidents…

I know in Italy they already passed a “frivolous” law to restrict phone using while driving….sure the driving is a bit more advanced there but immagine when most people not only talk but test message with their cell phone, would it be Ok to do that while you drive? I think it would be a great move for Oregon to limit the use of cell phones while driving. You could still talk if you had a speaker phone and you are not calling out.
Ciao
Paolo

Ok — so I was in the camp that thought that it would be cool to talk and drive — I drive — I can use the phone *and* pay attention to the road.

I have a preponderance of personal experience that proves I should be dead yesterday because someone was getting instuctions on the phone. Were I distracted, I would have died.

Despite an earlier belief that it could be done — I now know it is an incredible hazard, to talk on the phone while driving.

Sorry guys… I guess this just shows my ‘conservative’ views amongst this city of ‘progressive’ voices. Let the tomato throwing begin, because I think I’m with the writer of the editorial on this one.

The thing that often crosses my mind is what about talking to the passengers in the back seat of your car. It would seem to be a similar situation from the drivers perspective. There is no visual contact between conversationalists and the dialogue can be just as intense. Howe is this different from cell phone conversations? (both hands on the wheel notwhithstanding) Now, if you are going to get into the one hand off the wheel thing, then where do you draw the line. You logically would continue down the road of no reaching for a tissue, no putting on your makeup, not handing cheerios to the child in the back seat, perhaps only automatic cars should be allowed. (yes I am taking the argument into the rediculous realm and I realize that is not the point of the legislators.) All of these things that could take up extended amounts of time while behind the wheel. Would it be illegal to listen to the KBOO bike show while driving a car? Granted, it may be a one sided conversation coming out of your car radio, but it still may be just as engrossing as that cell phone conversation with an old friend from miles away.

Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not arguing that these are the safest activities to be engaged in while driving. I’m just bringing up the point. It is difficult to know where to draw the line when limiting this combination of activity.

With freedom comes responsibility. It is one of the things this country has been founded and built upon. The more freedom, the more responsibility. It would seem to me that the push should really be about creating more responsible drivers–rather than trying to legislate it.

As far as the O’s commute conversations paragraph. I apparently thought Jonathan was saying it was scary for a completely different reason than the rest of you. I thought it was a scary commentary on our relationships these days that the only time we get to converse with those we love is through technological means while driving. I don’t think it is about ‘more convenience = less safety.’ Perhaps it is the relationship between individual responsibility, responsibility to our fellow human beings and safety.

OK. I’m off my soapbox for now. I’m curious to hear the opinions in response.

Sometimes the “freedom” to have a cell phone becomes the “responsibility” to remain in touch 24/7, especially for those who work for businesses that must always be open, up and running.

My partner and I were given a cell phone (to share between us, a gift from a friend) last May. While it has come in handy for long-distance trips, I’ve seen little other reason to have it.

My partner insists that most days I be the one to carry it. “You’re more mobile and harder to reach on a bike than I am in a car,” she says. Wacky logic, yet she insists, and to humor her I carry it about one day out of four. Turned off, of course.

Interestingly, neither of us sees the logic in getting a second phone.

tonyt, i’ve read that the reason a passenger is less distracting is that a passenger can also see road issues coming up and give the driver a break, whereas aunt millie is just gonna keep going on and on over the phone.

Scott,

Without the hands-free device, most drivers are also distracted by only having one hand available to steer and shift while concerned about dropping their beloved cell phone.

When I listen to radio or converse with someone in the vehicle, I still have both hands available for an evasive manuver if needed. (Like, avoiding that cyclist who just rolled through the stop sign for example.)

Here’s an idea for the Oregonian:

Go sit on the corner of NW Everett and 16th (?), the onramp to the 405 S. Watch how many cars:

1. Do not yield to bikes as the sign says
2. How many people turning in front of bicyclist are on their cell phone.

I ride this stretch almost every day, and almost everyday I am cut off. And many times the drivers are on their cell phones.

N Williams is definately up there with some of the most dangerous “vehicle turning while driver is on the phone” bike encounters. I have been through more brake gripping and skidding episodes than I can count. Most, I find, the drivers are turning and talking at the same time, so there’s no free hand to hit their turn signal with. Add that to turning quick and tight in front of a bike, and there’s really no bail out plan. Just straight ahead and hope the brakes are good and dry.

the notion that many of the laws passed in salem are frivolous is hardly news at all.

I echo the sentiments here – it is dangerous to drive with any distraction and, all cyclists and pedestrians need to be fully aware of their surroundings and potential dangers to be safe. I am going to start dialing 911 instead of talking to the drivers – let the law sort them out.

Without enforcement(how many cars do we see parked in bike lanes, how many times have cars been cited for turning infront of cyclists – see post 27 for a great intersection which would provide all the tickets that ppb needs) then these laws are neither meaningful nor protective.

I’m not sure I would go so far as to agree with the Oregonian on this one, but I’m not sure that a ban on cell phone usage (with or without an exception for headsets) will accomplish the task that it has set out to do. It might just give the cops one more reason to pull over good folks and give them a ticket and another burden on their pocketbook.

I’ve been bicycling regularly since before I even thought about driving. I’ve been driving since I was old enough to get my license. And I’ve had a cell phone since ’99 or so. It’s safe to say that I’ve biked and driven while using the cell phone. Why? Many reasons. Reason #1 is that sometimes, a call comes in while I’m biking/driving, so if it appears to be safe to do so, and the cell phone is handy, I answer.

However, I also have relatives in southern Oregon, and I-5 between the northern and southern parts of the state is long, and sometimes rather flat and boring. Good time to make cell phone calls. Of course, these are the calls where it would be reasonable to put on a headset so as to not wear out the neck/arm holding the handset, so that may be a moot point with this particular proposed law.

So, where do I come down on this? Knock on wood, I have never (yet?) had an accident, either on a bike or in a car, in which I was on a cell phone. I’ve definitely seen a lot of other idiots who cause accidents while using their cell phones. But, I’ve also just seen a lot of other idiots on the road, period, with or without cell phones.

I would say that a better alternative would be to step up fines for failure to yield to a bicycle or pedestrian, failure to use a turn signal, and failure to yield to a traffic control device — in conjunction with the law allowing bikes to treat stop signs as yield signs and stop lights as stop signs.

In this particular instance, I think it would be wise to treat the symptoms.

And maybe also start a “safe use of the cell phone” campaign, funded by the cell phone companies, involving simple cartoons to tell people when they should and should NOT be using a cell phone in conjunction with a vehicle.

My personal experience is that, sometimes it’s safe, and sometimes you just have to let the call go to voicemail, or pull over and then pick it up. And you have to make that decision, not based on the importance of the call, but on the safety of the situation that you are in.

I don’t know much about what happens on the freeways, but in town I would slightly prefer to have people using handsets rather than headsets — you can see they’re on the phone, and stay the heck away from them. Though these are the folks who never signal, so it’s still a toss-up.

This aside, it just seems downright crazy to me to use a cell phone while driving. At all. Your chances of ending up doing something you’ll regret for the rest of your life increase exponentially, and how is that worthwhile?

Of course, I feel the same way about driving in general.

I’d rather see ten cell-phone using cyclists than one cell-phone using driver. It’s not the safest way to bike, but we’re going slower, we aren’t going to crush anything, and we can actually see what’s going on around us.

Jami’s comments in #23 were right on. People talking the phone are in two different environments. Social instincts make it difficult for us to prioritize safe driving at the caller’s expense. When you have a passenger, they understand when you need to take a moment to pay attention to traffic because they are part of that environment. When you are trying to gather your thoughts during a phone conversation, it is often difficult prioritize using blinker or checking your blind spot.

Having a headset is great because it frees up a hand but it doesn’t solve the problem as stated above.

I acknowledge that if you are cruising down the freeway between cities (like Portland and Eugene) that you could probably talk on the phone safely, but that convenience still doesn’t outweigh the dangers. For example, you could probably do that drive while sipping on your favorite malted beverage as well.

I doubt a cell phone ban would have an opportunity to be used as a revenue stream by police. If talking on the cell phone was illegal, I think there would be a social stigma attached to that behavior. Most people would not want to enable the phone driver by participating in a conversation with them. Drivers would simply pull over and callers would be more likely to accept being routed to voicemail.

I’m not a bike messenger and have little understanding about idea what the job entails, but could someone explain why a messenger can’t pull over to answer their phone or let calls go to voicemail? Would text messaging be a safer way to communicate with a bike messenger?

I haven’t researched this and don’t know the ins and outs, but I’ll spout off like everyone else here.

First off, Dabby, I’ll stop talking on my cell phone when you start wearing a helmet. (And I know the argument to that will be that you don’t endanger anyone’s life but your own with that, and yet, without health insurance, who will be paying the bill when you are sacked out for life with major brain injuries? And this is for a whole ‘nother thread)

yes, it is about personal freedom AND personal responsibility. Because there ARE safe times to use a cell phone in a car. As has been pointed out, driving down the freeway in a straight line at a constant speed is no more dangerous than tuning the car radio. And no, I don’t have statistics to support that, but I know when I’m being a crappy unaware driver, and I know when I am completely in control. (I try to avoid the former as much as possible, just so you know.)

I hate all the laws that overlegislate our lives. Yes, you should be allowed your fixie with no brake, I should be able to talk on my cell phone, and motorcyclists should get to feel the breeze in their hair on a sunny day. And we should all act responsibly when exercising our freedoms.

The more we are micromanaged in our daily lives, the less people think for themselves. You know the old adage – People act how they are treated. Give them respect, they act respectfully, give them responsibility, they act more responsibly, etc. The reverse is also true. Make all the decisions for everyone through legislation and the entire population is dumbed down.

I know there are a lot of stupid people out there, but in my idealism, I think if people were forced to suffer logical consequences of their actions and to have to think and act responsibly for the intrinsic value of being responsible (as opposed to extrinsically imposed laws) then we would have a better nation.

I know there are a lot of stupid people out there, but in my idealism, I think if people were forced to suffer logical consequences of their actions and to have to think and act responsibly for the intrinsic value of being responsible (as opposed to extrinsically imposed laws) then we would have a better nation.

I’m with ya “an uninformed opinion.” That makes sense.

He Will Workforf Ood here with the answers,

If you want to talk on your cell phone will driving around completly oblivious to the outside world – you should.

The city of Los Angeles has the perfect infrastructure for such activitie- why you’ll spend hours of everyday basking in the warmth of internal combustion in stand still traffic. LA is a film making mecca so you’ll be close to the home of your favorite DVDs that you can watch on your way to Las Vegas where you can get married without taking the key out of the ignition.

So call a loved one and point your digital all real really great 4 in one dashboard canopener, compass, GPS party stopper, and laser light show towards the horizon – To Sunny Southern California – were the gridlock meets the sea.

UOP
problem is there are a bunch of folks out in the world who will never go to the the potty by themselves again. folks have Carma but the really big picture that i see is if you are going to be in a 2000 lb killing machine you better be paying attention to the world around you; not in some other hood.

things to my personal benefit get examined to a much greater degree then you would ever suspect; for the most part you are incorrect.

I am a male and the whole pro choice issue is none of my business.

nor is it to my advantage to be pro choice; since i am white and male it is to my advantage to keep woman from voting or having any rights.

a pregnant woman takes allot of care in modern society so the more expectant moms the better the economic benefit for me. in fact as a white male it is to may advantage to encourage you to breed so i have a pool of young labor to draw from and we can have a small war every 5 years with a nice big war every twenty or so. that way we have a predictable boom and bust cycle that i can invest in. this not only allows me to gain more profit in the short term; the long term profits are realized as the pool of lower and middle class vets who will (as scheduled) require treatment driving medical stocks higher.

you want a big picture the more time you spend on your cell phone the more money i make on the market. so it is also not to my advantage to discourage you from your phone.

an even bigger picture is that it is also to my advantage to have cyclists in the hospital because it grantees that the debt will stay high and the market will remain stable as it bleeds the middle class dry and i can move now to the nikay index and make even more.

shall we go up another iteration?

the total market freedom and libertarian/republican plan for the US would be great for me because with all the lack of law i would be able to take the things i wanted and you could not defend like your house and land.
because i have a gun and training the likely hood of my keeping control is greater. there for the likely hood of my attracting mates would be better and i could outbreed all the weaker males in the area.
thus providing better genetic stock for the next generation. then since i am by definition doing things to my advantage i could select for those traits that i find best in the human genome and only breed for those traits or manipulate the genome directly so that only those traits expressed and soon I could sire the master race.

When did this get reduced to name-calling? I would never call someone I didn’t know an idiot.

I stand by my argument. I am sick of this over-legislated sue-happy world. Sorry, but I am. I think that shit happens. We all try to be good people and I prefer educating people on the dangers over out and out bans. I think it is just a different philosophy on living. Yes, it’s sad when people die, but no matter how many laws we pass, people will still die. We cannot protect ourselves from all the dangers in the universe.

If we follow your line of thinking, maybe we should outlaw a bunch of other things too. For instance, perhaps it should be illegal to listen to the radio in the car – plenty of accidents happen when people are changing stations, I’m sure. And nobody should be allowed to drive with toddlers in teh back seat – that is WAY more distracting than any cell phone conversation. And certainly eating while driving should be against the law – so let’s eliminate all drive thrus. Hmmm… what else should we outlaw to make the world safer? It never ends Erin, do you see that it never ends? Have you had the privilege to travel in foreign countries? We consider ourselves to be the land of the free, but we aren’t allowed to do sh*t compared to the rest of the world.

If you like fascism and rules Erin, I think you could apply to live in N. Korea.

Every new thing she writes illustrates my point better than I ever could.

It is obvious that she has no idea what the definition of fascism is. You sound really silly when you use words like that improperly. Look up the definition why dontcha?

I also hope I am never on my bike anywhere near her while she is operating a car. “Shit” happens frequently because ignorant and idiotic people cause it to. People like you! It is not an “accident” when someone causes harm to others because they are preoccupied on the phone. It is self-absorbed recklessness. And it should be illegal.

And as to all the other distractions you referenced, studies have consistently shown that they are not the same level of distraction as the phone. Just because you are not capable of comprehending that FACT, does not change it.

By the way since you appear to be advocating anarchy, what is your address so I and some others can come help ourselves to all your stuff?

I have also started a petition for the removal of all traffic devices in the Portland area due to the fascist oppression inherent in stop signs and crosswalks.

Now excuse me I am going to have 7 or 8 shots of tequila then go for a drive while yapping on my cell phone, as I am verrry important and have no time to think about all of you!