Commander's perspective on weekend enforcement
Posted by Jonathan Maus (Publisher/Editor) on July 16th, 2007 at 11:59 am
This morning I asked Traffic Division Commander Mark Kruger if he had any information he could share about the police presence at the Midnight Mystery Ride (MMR) and the Zoobomb ride over the weekend.
Here are his thoughts on the MMR:
"Friday night NE Precinct officers requested our assistance when a group of bicyclists was reported blocking traffic while riding through NE. We responded and issued a number of citations and arrested a bicyclist for DUII. My understanding is that the ride was largely broken up at that point. If we get complaints from citizens or requests from a precinct to assist because bicyclists are blocking traffic ala critical mass style, we will respond and take whatever enforcement action is needed to restore the traffic flow."
And his thoughts on Zoobomb:
"Traffic officers worked large scale enforcement missions on Hwy 26 last Friday, Saturday and Sunday as part of our SAFE zone enforcement and because we have a grant from ODOT to conduct large scale missions on Hwy 26 (and other locations) over the summer. I was informed that the mission encountered the zoobombers on Sunday night and did issue 14 citations for stop sign violations. We issued another 187 citations to motorists.
We've been monitoring the zoobombers on Hwy 26 since last summer and we are seeing the same kinds of behaviors that caused us concern last year, namely riding out into the travel lanes instead of staying on the right shoulder as required. Last week we stopped a 13 year old boy who was riding with another 16 year old with the zoobombers. The boy had no lights, no brakes on his bike and no helmet while riding down Hwy 26 in the dark. We returned him to his parents.
We regard this zoobomber behavior of illegally riding on Hwy 26 in the travel lanes (sort of surfing back and forth across the travel lanes) during the hours of darkness to be very dangerous and careless. Often they have no lights. If we are out working the area during one of our missions and encounter the zoobombers under these circumstances, or preparing to make a run down the highway, and we observe violations, we will take enforcement action. My opinion is that this zoobomber behavior on Hwy 26 is a fatality waiting to happen and we won't stand by and ignore it if we are present conducting enforcement."
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NO COMMENT - MEDIA BLACKOUT - ZOOBOMB
RecommendedKruger: Bikes are part of traffic as vehicles. Bikes are traffic! Remember? That\'s why you say we have to live up to the same laws when you write tickets. Double standards or not? Which way do you want to go?
RecommendedCare to elaborate, Slick?
Recommendedit\'s a response to these parts of his statement. “Friday night NE Precinct officers requested our assistance when a group of bicyclists was reported blocking traffic while riding through NE.... If we get complaints from citizens or requests from a precinct to assist because bicyclists are blocking traffic ala critical mass style, we will respond and take whatever enforcement action is needed to restore the traffic flow.”
Bikes riding through NE is traffic flow. Just because our vehicles don\'t have engines does not mean we are not a part of traffic.
RecommendedOK.
But because bicycles are vehicles, they are subject to the traffic laws, and if you\'re violating the traffic laws, then there\'s no double standard in play if you receive a citation.
RecommendedOne would have thought that a grant from ODOT for enforcement of hwy 26 would have envolved police enforcing against traffic ON hwy 26, not hanging out in a parking lot near a deserted road...
RecommendedRixter: That\'s my point. Either we\'re vehicles subject to the law as traffic or we\'re not. In this case, Kruger\'s comment basically says that bikes are not traffic. In previous comments, he says that bikes are traffic and therefore subject to every vehicle law. He can\'t have it both ways. When he gets it both ways, it feels like we live in a police state.
Bikes are traffic. Bike traffic is traffic flow.
RecommendedBikes are traffic. That doesn\'t mean that corking intersections is legal, and it doesn\'t mean that riding in every lane is legal. If bikes were \"blocking traffic,\" that isn\'t inconsistent with bikes are vehicles.
I suspect that if a group of SUV enthusiasts got together in a group of several hundred, and were corking intersections, and traveling in lanes contrary to what the law allowed, they might also be reported for \"blocking traffic.\" And if the traffic division showed up, and discovered that some of those SUV drivers had no headlights, and some were DUI, they might also be cited.
RecommendedAt 5:00 every day, there are hundreds of cars downtown blocking traffic. The PPB needs to start issuing tickets to those drivers so we cyclists can get around more easily.
RecommendedMarth, are those cars corking intersections? Or do you not understand the difference between legal and illegal behavior?
RecommendedGlad I don\'t have the enormous chip on my shoulder some people here are carrying around, I\'d never be able to get out of bed, and it apparently really skews your perception of reality...
I guess I should count my blessings. :)
RecommendedMaybe they could use some of the grant money for the \"enforcement missions\" during peak traffic times to see that drivers are obeying the laws as well. Can\'t tell you how many times I\'ve been driving through there and a driver on a cell phone drifts over a lane.
RecommendedHe uses the word enforcement and mission so many times it sounds like he\'s getting ready to bomb Iraq or something....
RecommendedThey\'re looking for Wheels of Mass Disruption. ;)
RecommendedSlick,
Of course bicycles are part of traffic. \"Blocking traffic\", however, is not \"traffic flow\". While cyclists have the same rights as motorized vehicles and are subject to the same rules, there are some additional rules that cyclists are subject to, but seldom aware of.
Public roads are an inherently dangerous place. Oregon hasn\'t had Driver\'s Ed. in public schools since the 80\'s. I don\'t think there has ever been Bicyclist\'s Ed.
Whether driver or cyclist, we could all do each other a huge favor by understanding the rules of the road a little more clearly.
http://egov.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/BIKEPED/docs/bike-ped_statutes.pdf
814.430 Improper use of lanes; exceptions; penalty. (1) A person commits the offense of improper use of lanes by a bicycle if the person is operating a bicycle on a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic using the roadway at that time and place under the existing conditions and the person does not ride as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway.
Recommended(2) A person is not in violation of the offense under this section if the person is not operating a bicycle as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway under any of the following circumstances:
(a) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle that is proceeding in the same direction.
(b) When preparing to execute a left turn.
(c) When reasonably necessary to avoid hazardous conditions including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or moving vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or other conditions that make continued operation along the right curb or edge unsafe or to avoid unsafe operation in a lane on the roadway that is too narrow for a bicycle and vehicle to travel safely side by side. Nothing in this paragraph excuses the operator of a bicycle from the requirements under ORS 811.425 or from the penalties for failure to comply with those requirements.
(d) When operating within a city as near as practicable to the left curb or edge of a roadway that is designated to allow traffic to move in only one direction along the roadway. A bicycle that is operated under this paragraph is subject to the same requirements and exceptions when operating along the left curb or edge as are applicable when a bicycle is operating along the right curb or edge of the roadway.
(e) When operating a bicycle along side not more than one other bicycle as long as the bicycles are both being operated within a single lane and in a manner that does not impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic.
(f) When operating on a bicycle lane or bicycle path.
(3) The offense described in this section, improper use of lanes by a bicycle, is a Class D traffic infraction. [1983 c.338 §701; 1985 c.16 §339]
Cars constantly cork traffic. It\'s called \"gridlock\".
RecommendedWyatt, please try to have some intellectual integrity. You and I both know that \"gridlock\" and \"corking\" aren\'t the same thing.
\"Gridlock\" is the blocking of intersections by vehicles that are trapped-- involuntarily-- in the intersection by the cars ahead of them when the light changes.
And it\'s against the law, and vehicles can be ticketed for blocking the intersection.
\"Corking\" is the INTENTIONAL blocking of an intersection for the express purpose of preventing vehicles that have the right of way from proceeding, so that vehicles that DON\'T have the right of way may proceed.
And it too is against the law, and vehicles can be cited for blocking the intersection.
One is CARELESS blocking of the intersection by a trapped vehicle, and the other is INTENTIONAL blocking of the intersection for the purpose of blocking the right of way.
And you think the cops won\'t show up for the intentional act?
Time to grow up, Wyatt, I suspect you\'re old enough now.
RecommendedRixtir,
Thanks, Dad. That was just the swift kick in the butt I needed. I\'ll get to growing up now.
RecommendedI doubt it.
RecommendedI\'m not so sure they\'re only talking about corking. I think they\'re also talking about large masses of bikes that slow the parts of engine-enabled traffic. On the corking front, the PPB should offer more parade assistance if they\'re worried about the flow of these events. Riding drunk isn\'t cool and tickets make sense. Corking isn\'t good, but I do see cars do it downtown all the time. Haven\'t you ever seen a car enter the intersection on yellow only to block the other direction of traffic? Bike culture happens because people get to hang out and ride together. It\'s a good thing that riding together with hundreds of people builds community and friendship. If they think it isn\'t happening safely, they should help make it safe instead of making me feel like I can be deemed a criminal at any moment for riding my bike or having fun. Rixter, I even think that people should stop at stop signs and I bet I stop more than you do. Cops can be wrong sometimes too. Like right now.
RecommendedWhen cars get stuck in an intersection it\'s generally because the drivers are so freaking impatient to get to where they\'re going that they purposely go against the yellow (and often red) and lodge themselves in the intersection when they can clearly see there is no more room across the intersection. Thereby blocking traffic intentionally.
RecommendedI\'m not so sure they\'re only talking about corking. I think they\'re also talking about large masses of bikes that slow the parts of engine-enabled traffic.
I just re-checked the links, and I think you\'re right, it was the police who were corking. Look, if the cyclists were following the law, riding in the proper lanes, and the police showed up because cyclists were \"blocking traffic,\" then that\'s obviously a problem, because it\'s not illegal for bikes to be on the road, even en masse. And if the police showed up because legally-riding cyclists were riding en masse, the police should be called on that. My impression though, from reading the links, is that there were numerous problems coming from *some* of the riders.
On the corking front, the PPB should offer more parade assistance if they\'re worried about the flow of these events.
Apparently the police were corking for the ride, and then they started handing out citations.
Riding drunk isn\'t cool and tickets make sense. Corking isn\'t good, but I do see cars do it downtown all the time. Haven\'t you ever seen a car enter the intersection on yellow only to block the other direction of traffic?
That isn\'t corking.
Bike culture happens because people get to hang out and ride together. It\'s a good thing that riding together with hundreds of people builds community and friendship.
In my view, it\'s preferable to have more bikes than cars on the streets. I just think they should not place themselves above the law when they\'re riding en masse. And if the cops start harassing cyclists who are breaking no laws, then you\'ve got my attention.
If they think it isn\'t happening safely, they should help make it safe instead of making me feel like I can be deemed a criminal at any moment for riding my bike or having fun.
Fair enough...
Rixter, I even think that people should stop at stop signs and I bet I stop more than you do.
Sometimes I\'m called the only saint in Portland who stops at stops, and sometimes I\'m told that I don\'t stop either.
I can\'t win...
Cops can be wrong sometimes too. Like right now.
I agree, and that is why I\'d rather not have my attention diverted by cyclists (not you) who complain about tickets they got for breaking the law. I\'d rather focus on real abuse of cyclists.
RecommendedWhen cars get stuck in an intersection it\'s generally because the drivers are so freaking impatient to get to where they\'re going that they purposely go against the yellow (and often red) and lodge themselves in the intersection when they can clearly see there is no more room across the intersection.Yes...
Except the ones who aren\'t running red lights are hoping that they\'ll be able to inch forward before the light changes.
Thereby blocking traffic intentionally.
No. Intentionally blocking traffic means they intended to block traffic, not that they intended to enter the intersection.
RecommendedFine. Then the level of selfishness involved means that they will attempt to reach the other side of the intersection, even if it means they will likely block traffic.
RecommendedStill not the same thing as intentionally blocking traffic for the express purpose of preventing traffic that has the right of way from proceeding.
RecommendedSlick: I agree. I was ticketed $242 for running a stop sign that I made a complete full stop at. A few seconds before I approached this stop sign I was almost run down by a car that was being honked at by others for blocking traffic at a intersection behind this stop sign (bottom of Clinton between 11th ave and 12th).
The officer in court said he didn\'t notice the car illegally blocking the intersection or run me off the road -- but he did manage to see that my wheels did not come to a complete stop from 50\' directly behind me while riding a motorcycle.
From my experience I\'d say there is selective enforcement targeting bicycles in this city. And cops can and will be wrong when they\'re focused on the few and not the many.
RecommendedStill not the same thing as intentionally blocking traffic for the express purpose of preventing traffic that has the right of way from proceeding.
From the standpoint of the cops deciding whether to respond to the scene in force...
RecommendedI give up.
RecommendedAn attempt to clarify.
Oregon Statute 814.430
(1)\"A person commits the offense of improper use of lanes by a bicycle if the person is operating a bicycle on a roadway at LESS THAN the normal speed of traffic using the roadway at that time and place under the existing conditions and the person DOES NOT RIDE AS CLOSE AS PRACTICABLE TO THE RIGHT CURB or edge of the roadway.\"
...Exception (e)
\"When operating a bicycle ALONG SIDE NOT MORE THAN ONE OTHER BICYCLE as long as the bicycles are both being operated within a single lane and IN A MANNER THAT DOES NOT IMPEDE THE NORMAL AND REASONABLE MOVEMENT IN TRAFFIC.\"
...(3) \"The offense described in this section, improper use of lanes by a bicycle, is a Class D traffic infraction.\"
Read full Statute here.
http://egov.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/BIKEPED/docs/bike-ped_statutes.pdf
Stay to the right, especially if traveling below the speed limit and don\'t ride more than two side by side. Otherwise the Police might rain on your parade. Oh wait, parades require licenses.
Recommended$242 fine. I make $300 a month with $200 in bills. This is gonna be FUN! Oh, wait fun is illegal.
Recommended#20, I completely disagree with your statement about biking after drinking. Biking while drunk as opposed to driving is the coolest thing that you can do and the law makes no sense in oregon. Just across the river in Vancouver biking while drunk is not a DUII, and if an officer encounters someone who he thinks is endangering themselves or others that officer is supposed to offer them a free ride home not harass them. Our DUII laws as related to bikes are completely backward and if you think I\'m wrong lets compare the number of people killed in car collisions where alcohol was a factor, 14000 in the US, to the number killed by drunk bicyclists, 0.
Bjorn
Recommended\"Traffic officers worked large scale enforcement missions on Hwy 26 last Friday, Saturday and Sunday...I was informed that the mission encountered the zoobombers on Sunday night and did issue 14 citations for stop sign violations.\"
The quote above is a big fat lie. Kruger should be ashamed to think we\'d believe that crap. Ask yourself: where\'s the stop sign on Hwy 26, Kruger? You failed to mention that the officers \"happened\" to encounter the zoobombers as they rolled the stop sign for a crosswalk that goes from an empty parking lot to the childrens museum...at midnight on SW CANYON RD (http://tinyurl.com/yvxwbf). Is that what you pictured when you read his description?
He\'s right, there\'s some bad stuff that happens on hwy 26. If he wants to stop it, his officers should \"happen\" to do their Hwy 26 enforcement work ON HWY 26, rather than in vacant parking lots. If he thinks his officers made a point last night, it\'s this: the PPB is far more interested in shutting things down than keeping things safe. Too bad they failed.
RESUME MEDIA BLACKOUT
RecommendedBjorn, two comments.
First, your statistic on drunk bicyclists is wrong. A woman was killed in Seattle within the last year by a drunk cyclist. I suspect that if you\'re wrong by one (because you made your statistics up), then you may be wrong by more than one.
Second, you neglected to mention the percentage of fatal cycling accidents in which alcohol was a factor.
Finally, I agree that the Oregon law is unduly harsh, but I also think the California law makes more sense than the Washington law, although I will agree that the Washington law is easier on drunk cyclists.
Ok, that\'s three comments, not two.
Recommendeddear god, all these b.s. \"you broke the law by running a stop sign in an abandoned parking lot, therefore you deserve a ticket\" arguments are so weak. you police apologists are all hypocrites. everyone reading this breaks probably at least ONE LAW EVERY SINGLE DAY.
do drive 55mph in an 55 zone? do you come to a complete stop every single stop sign, even the ones at night on quiet streets with four way stops? do you signal every turn you make? do you ride with both hands on your bars at all times (unsafe riding citation)?
you are all a bunch of self-righteous, cop-butt kissing, hypocritical, liars. your blaming-the-victim arguments are completely invalid.
RecommendedRixtir, in comment 33 are you referring to the betty jean simon case? My understanding was that although the person accused of bumping her in front of the bus left the scene by bike they were in an argument/scuffle before she fell at which time he was not on his bicycle, and that the bicycle was in no way the cause of her death. I have spent considerable time attempting to find even one case in which a drunk cyclist hit someone while they were riding on the street and killed that person. Whereas I personally know people who have been killed or maimed by drunks operating motor vehicles.
Bjorn
RecommendedBjorn, from what I read of the incident at that time, she was standing at the bus stop when he rode by and bumped into her. He was apprehended and tested over the limit. If there were further facts made public after the original news story, I wasn\'t aware of them.
RecommendedCongratulations rixtir! You\'ve made 14 comments on this thread (39%!). That\'s the exact same number of citations issued last night. Even the police knew when to give up at failing to make their point.
RecommendedThanks for the count, Carl.
That\'s 15. :)
Now what was your point?
RecommendedSolid Gold
I think the point is that if you are going to break the law be ready to pay the price if caught...if I am speeding down the freeway in my car or running stop signs/redlights on my bike I am full aware of the consequences if caught. Does it make me a police apologist if I say those who are caught should pay up? I would argue it makes me simply lucky so far to have not got my $242 Barnum/Balzer special.
RecommendedMy point?
I\'m getting tired of your blitz of comments and your apparent inability to accept that some folks just don\'t agree with you.
Sorry if that was unclear.
I won\'t be reading #16.
RecommendedI don\'t have a problem with disagreement. I have a problem with non-argument posing as argument.
You can open your eyes now.
Recommendedflying threw an intersection at 30mph in a moving death mobile vs a 200lb cyclist at 10mph are completely different. i blow stop signs, everyone does. anyone who says otherwise is a liar.
if i get a ticket, then its mine to deal with. heaven forbid fun cannot be free, you must go to the mall / movies / . cops are targetting cyclists unfairly but when you go looking for a fight, i.e. riding at night without reflectors / drunk / not stopping at stop signs when a cop is there, you deserve what you get.
i dont agree with the sting operation on the zoobombers.
i have NEVER seen a DUI checkpoint in all my years in Oregon. when I lived in CA I would see them at least two or three times a year.
Recommendedi blow stop signs, everyone does. anyone who says otherwise is a liar.
I don\'t blow through stop signs. Period.
Care to provide some proof that I\'m a liar?
RecommendedYou have NEVER blown through a stop sign? Pretty defensive. Ok, let me rephrase:
\"i blow stop signs, everyone (except rixtir) does. anyone who says otherwise is a liar.\"
RecommendedI rode threw a stop sign, once, because I saw it too late. I tried to stop, and missed the mark.
I don\'t really think that\'s what you meant by \"blown threw a stop.\"
Recommendedrixter, I feel your pain.
Todd, I stop at stop signs.
I don\'t favor police but I respect them. I have five bicycles in my living room. I drive a car.
There are more people out there like me then some might think. Cycling is not a singular culture. We all share the road, we can all lead by example.
Recommendedrixtir #45:
I bet you wish you had a fixie, \'cause then you might have been able to stop in time!
RecommendedIf what is meant by \"blowing\" is going through full speed, then I don\'t do it either. That\'s mostly because I know that others will stereotype all cyclists based on my actions and that\'s the last thing we need more of now. I know there\'s plenty of cases where I could easily blow a sign (or even a light out where I live) but I don\'t do it because it will not help us move forward and get some more common sense laws regarding cyclist into action.
Somebody else asked about going 55 on the freeway. Nope, I don\'t, I do about 60 or 65. But guess what? Everybody else is too which is why the cops ignore the behavior. When people are blatantly ignoring laws by doing 80 is when they tend to crack down. Sometimes a bit of conformity is ok.
Recommendedpeejay,
actually, I do wish I had a fixie. And I have the perfect candidate, my father\'s nearly new condition 1970 Gitane Grand Sport de Luxe. One day....
RecommendedLogan5 #46:
If it becomes ok to speed in your car because everyone is doing it, why doesn\'t that apply to certain stop signs that every bike does not stop at? If 10mph is ok because that\'s what everyone is doing, but 20mph is pushing it, why can\'t we say that slowing down and looking is ok but full speed through the sign is pushing it? Explain the difference.
Jeff #29:
Stay to the right, especially if traveling below the speed limit and don\'t ride more than two side by side.
I\'m trying to understand this one. If you are travelling below the speed limit, you should stay to the right. But if you\'re travelling above the speed limit, it\'s ok to take the lane??? Now I thought that was illegal.
Also, don\'t forget about exception (c), which states:
\"When reasonably necessary to avoid hazardous conditions including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or moving vehicles, BICYCLES, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or other conditions that make continued operation along the right curb or edge unsafe or to avoid unsafe operation in a lane on the roadway that is too narrow for a bicycle and vehicle to travel safely side by side\".
So, I may leave the side of the road to pass other bicycles. And if there are a lot of bicycles, it follows that I may go as far to the left of the lane as necessary to pass all of those other bicycles. Sounds a lot like the MMR, or any other big group ride.
RecommendedIt seems rixter is the only one here who is thinking logically and without the self-righteous cyclist attitude. If the cyclists were running stop signs they should be ticketed. If they were holding up traffic (while intoxicated, no less) they should be ticketed. If it was a driver you\'d want the same done to them.
Recommended\"Gridlock\" is the blocking of intersections by vehicles that are trapped-- involuntarily-- in the intersection by the cars ahead of them when the light changes.
And it\'s against the law, and vehicles can be ticketed for blocking the intersection.
It is never involuntary. Every driver that does it knows full well that they are doing it. You know by the looks they get/give when you glare at them.
I see cars block intersections every single day, in SE Portland, Downtown, NW Portland, Beaverton, Tigard, and Lake Oswego.
Every single day, in the course of my commute people block lanes.
I even see TriMet busses pull full into an intersection blocking the ENTIRE intersection for cross traffic at least once a week.
And I have never seen a ticket issued to a car driver for blocking an intersection. Never in the 10 years I have been driving in Oregon.
I even once sat behind a police officer in a marked car who was within his jurisdiction and in uniform - who was blocked by a car in an intersection that was posted with a \"DO NOT BLOCK INTERSECTION\" sign, and he did absolutely nothing.
Laws do not always reflect the best solution to a problem.
Did you know that in Oregon it is against the law to coast in a motor vehicle?
Yet I know of many times this has occurred with many people behind the wheel. Should they all be ticketed and fined for violating the law?
Law is *not* sacrosanct. It is *supposed* to be refined and improved upon.
Some times laws that are not good take court battles to change. Some times unfair laws exist for decades simply because there is no real amount of public desire to change it. Some times good people get punished for violating bad laws.
It is real possible that the Police are targeting bicycles. And it is real possible that some bicyclists *deserve*? citations.
But I don\'t know how other to say it than has been said by others in these last few discussions - WE HAVE LIMITED MANPOWER IN POLICE FORCES. That manpower should be put to use where it will DO GOOD.
I for one don\'t care to see \"enforcement actions\" cracking down on people who take their vehicle out of gear and coast - even if it is technically against the law. Same thing with bicycles rolling through stop signs. They really hurt statistically no one. More people probably get killed by bee stings...
I think that if a police officer observes a bicyclist blowing a stop sign at full speed, or blowing a stop sign in a dangerous way of in a dangerous intersection - by all means, cite them.
But if a bicyclist slows, looks all ways and proceeds at a reasonable pace through the stop sign - fully cautious and looking for cars and pedestrians, and the intersection is not a dangerous intersection - then the police officer should simply move along and spend his time doing good where it is really needed.
People who claim the letter of the law should be followed to a T are absurd and are fooling themselves. I don\'t know a single person, no matter how good, who is not breaking at least one law at any given point in time. There are SO many laws that apply to SO many areas.
I worked in the environmental enforcement arena, and let me just say that almost every home in Oregon is in violation of at least one hazardous material regulation. Does that mean that we should send the DEQ out to fine homeowners who have chipping lead paint? Or who put too much bleach in their laundry or toilet? Of course not.
People: get off your high horses and stop debating who stops and stop signs and who doesn\'t and all that non-sense.
Look at the bigger picture.
Police should be offering SUPPORT for citizen activities that are not criminal in nature. And if they are concerned about popular activities, maybe have an officer keep an eye on it. Maybe ONE officer.
If I punished my children for every single violation to the fullest extent I could - it would just make the kids distrust, and dislike me - and eventually they would stop listening all together. Instead the little offenses get a \"hey, don\'t do that\" and the big offenses get a grounding, spanking, or other serious type punishment. Writing out $200 citations for things that hurt no one and caused no real problems just makes people pissed off.
Since I have no preview - I hope this all comes out formatted OK.
Recommendedpeejay: nailed it
RecommendedAhh crap - my blockquote didn\'t take in my comment # 50.
It should have started like this:
RecommendedI\'m glad the Zoobombers have such a good time - that totally makes up for any negative impression of cyclists that they present to the community at large.
I am concerned that Jonathan panders to them so much though. Earth to jonathan: zoobombers are for the most part misguided/young and foolish/drunk types. Please do not feel you have to pander to them. Your audience is the reasonable cyclists of this city. Thanks.
RecommendedBjorn (#35), I seem to remember reading sometime last winter or thereabouts on portlandindymedia, about a cyclist in Salem (or maybe Corvallis...more certain in was the former)that ran into a lady and killed her. The guy that was responsible was a junkie or something. I can\'t remember for sure about alcohol or drugs, but fairly certain it was one of the two.
Recommendedpeejay #50. Sub(c) goes on to say \"Nothing in this paragraph excuses the operator of a bicycle from the requirements under ORS 811.425 or from the penalties for failure to comply with those requirements.\" Basically, that means that you must pull over at the first safe turnout if being overtaken by another vehicle. Perhaps including that part of the statute would have undercut your argument.
Recommendedwhat VR said.
RecommendedLet\'s face it...Rixtir is the demon SUV driver as seen in \"The Bicyclist\"!
Bah haha!
Recommended....dear god bikemonkey, you are right! ^_^ (sorry rixter, I don\'t mean to offend.)
I would like to note that, while it may be reasonable to expect a small group of cyclists to each stop at a stop sign or light and wait for their right of way, this simply doesn\'t work for larger groups. Corking is a way to keep the ride together and to avoid ending up with a car in the middle of a large group of cyclists; that is not a situation that makes anybody happy, or safe.
I am not in any way saying that I feel cyclists are \"above the law\" or however you want to put it; but I do think there are times when the laws just don\'t account for the reality of 100+ cyclists riding together.
RecommendedI would like to pose an open invite to anyone to come to the portland zoo at midnight and ride down SW Canyon Rd. Go through this intersection and stop or don\'t.
http://tinyurl.com/2agtyx
Either way you will see how this is a waste of OUR tax money
RecommendedMy last post of Snap Crackel! N\' Pop was rejected.
Well to contribute a real thought. There is always the perspective of if you are breaking the law why does it matter? I see on a daily basis, myself participating, the blatent disregard for law in respect to the speed limit, signaling, full stops at stop signs and other elementary traffic rules. It happens everywhere all the times. I think the question that is sought is to why the enforcement is, what appears to be, aimed at cyclists at these two specific rides. Mark Kruger or any other spokesman can make the claim of safety and traffic rules applying to cyclists as a reason but it is either coincidence or another motive from somewhere.
Recommendedgabriel:
Oh, my god, aren\'t our police officers so very brave! They were clearly outnumbered, and they stood their ground against you dirty villains, who endangered the lives of all those ghost-children killed by cars outside of playgrounds and whose spectres haunt the children\'s zoo at night.
Watch as they bravely take ODOT\'s money meant for highway 26 enforcement, and spend it on midnight parking lot stings!
Cheer as they cut off bikes in the road, causing risk of injury!
Gnash your teeth and wail as you spend your local tax dollars keeping those squad cars full of gas and donuts!
RecommendedYou know, I reread Kruger\'s story. And it just gets more ridiculous each time. Nobody reported bikes blocking the flow of traffic except the two squad cars who waited out in front of the bar from before the ride began. There was no other traffic!!! And then to use more squad cars and motorcycles than I\'ve ever seen in one place in this city, to clear the roads and make them safe for non-existent auto traffic!!!!
As for zoo-bomb, go look at Gabriel\'s map, and then read what Kruger says about it. It\'s like two different events. Kruger says he was informed the [hwy 26] mission encountered the zoobombers on their ride and just happened to stop them for stop sign violations. But it looks a lot like a premeditated sting, and the reasons for it are that they\'re so upset about the legal hwy 26 route and they can\'t do anything about it!
Rixtir, if you really think this one out, it\'s time you admit this is pretty bad law enforcement technique, and certainly bad faith on the part of Chief Kruger.
RecommendedZoobombers being stupid and dangerous get my ire up (personal experience and personal opinion), so I have little empathy when the cops crack down.
I try not to giggle when I am being a self-righteous, cop-butt kissing, hypocritical liar, but I just can\'t help myself.
rixtir sounds so reasonable to me, but then again, I could be lying.
RecommendedDoug (#55)
ORS 811.425 only applies if \"The highway is a two directional, two-lane highway\" and there is no safe place to pass.
In other words, peejay is only required to pull out if the road is two way and only one lane in the same direction, AND is a no-passing zone. That\'s pretty specific.
Oh, BTW, Lt. Kruger\'s argument about 26 is bogus - bicycles are NOT required to ride on the shoulder, only on BIKE LANES. When a police lieutenant doesn\'t know the law, it should be no surprise that his subordinates do not either. If he really wants his arguments to hold weight, he needs to get his facts (laws) straight.
Recommendedthe BTW portion was not intended as a response to Doug, but to Lt. Kruger - I didn\'t make that explicitly clear.
RecommendedThanks, Matt. I wanted to respond to that earlier.
RecommendedAnother thing, Lt Kruger: is it OK to imperil the safety of a vehicle operator when stopping the operator to issue a traffic citation? Because that\'s exactly what happened when the motorcycle police stopped the MMR riders. They went through the red light no question. But the method of stopping them endangered them AND the motorcycle police.
Recommendedhttp://tinyurl.com/2agtyx
I made a map to argue the ridiculousness.
Recommendedre NE Portland action...it sounds like police are operating in a fashion not unlike vigilantes, coming out in force against one sector of the community at the behest of another.
Recommendedre 26, I hardly think ODOT gave PPB $ to cite bicyclists at midnight. The point of this grant is to enforce speed laws during peak and pre-peak hours in order to reduce crashes that tie up the freeway network for hours. The bike busts seem a bit off target.
Time for some leadership from the Mayor\'s office and new leadership at the traffic divison.
Peejay in #64 nailed it. Mr. Kruger\'s insinuation that these weren\'t targeted stings is very disingenuous. Why are people still willing to believe what he says?
RecommendedAm I the only one who notices that Jonathon appears to be a mouthpiece for the cops(kruger)?
Most of his posts have some form of editorializing. Yet here we simply have him giving us a verbatim transcript of the cops side of things. No critique, no examination of facts, just a one sided monologue from \'the commander\'.
Jonathon-
It is apparent that you have become far to deeply imbedded with the police. They, like the military are trained to exploit journalists and they have done a fine job with you.
You offer nothing but unfiltered propaganda when covering these stories. Oh that you would grow a backbone and stop fretting over losing the access you have gained by sucking up to these fools.
Even the goofy Mercury has more journalistic integrity than you. Have the cops given you an honorary badge and a junior trooper jersey to wear yet?
Yuck.
RecommendedHey Jeff,
I would love to hear more about your misguided misperceptions of zoobomb and zoobombers.
Many zoobombers frequent this site. We are his audience too. Jonathan covers bikes in portland, and zoobomb is a part of that -- like it or not.
Oh, and thanks for pidgeonholing me into the \"misguided drunk kid\" category. I\'m wearing a freaking tie at work right now for !@#$ sake.
It is comments like yours that are prejudice and misguided that gives a negative impression to the community at large.
Recommendedwhoah steve (#73)
What are you saying? There would be more journalistic integrity if jonathan gave his own interpretation and opinions on Krugers statment? The fact that he has a relatively trusting relationship with the PPD is the only reason he is able to give us this info at all. Because they know he will present it verbatium, sans opinion.
I think you\'re off yer rocker.
RecommendedWhoa, Steve!
I\'ll let Jonathan speak for himself, but I think you\'re being unfair.
By giving us a verbatim transcript he is allowing us to form out own opinions rather than peppering it with his own.
Recommendedsteve (#73) -
Why should he critique Kruger\'s statement? Isn\'t that what these posts are for in part?
Make your own analysis of Kruger\'s comments; you don\'t need Jonathon to do it for you, do you?
You might want to consider showing Jonathon more respect.
RecommendedDamn. I meant \"form OUR own opinions...\"
Carry on...
RecommendedJust an FYI. #55 Jeff and I,(#46 and previous), are not the same person.
I have enjoyed a Zoobomb or two myself. Much fun. I Thought it was hilarious though when I realized the true event is the college-quad type of hanging out that goes on at the top of the hill before the actual bomb. Between Rocco\'s and the top of the hill I think I waited two and a half hours for the ten minute down hill. I\'ll be back though, when I have time. Although next time I\'ll just ride the MAX up there myself around 10:00 or so. I do, however prefer the traditional route, not HWY-26, just my preference.
The other Jeff
RecommendedI just think it would be helpful of the police to work WITH the community and events rather than against it. Hiding and then surprising everyone with tickets is not a way to win over people in general, or getting people to obey the law. It seems you would get far more people enjoying cycling under the law and having fun if police were an obvious presence and working with event organizers to PREVENT infractions of the law BEFORE they happen rather than after. Rebellion, mistrust or what ever you want to call it, on both sides, is fueled by people not working together.
RecommendedJeff #55 said:
\"zoobombers are for the most part misguided/young and foolish/drunk types. Please do not feel you have to pander to them. Your audience is the reasonable cyclists of this city. Thanks.\"
I agree with what gabrielamadeus already said above, but wanted to add a couple of things.
I\'ve never experienced as much assumption and prejudice (like Jeff\'s comment) based on the group of people I was hanging out with until I started zoobombing. The thing is, just like in any social group, the individuals in zoobomb are rich and varied. There\'s artists, professionals, punk kids, punk adults, scientists, mechanics, hippies, activists, musicians, community builders, students, teachers. Hell, I\'m almost 30, have a stable job, just bought a house, and I love hanging out with zoobombers. We\'re pretty inclusive. Generally, the thing that keeps us together is that we all like to have creative bike fun. Simple.
I always thought that, well, Portland\'s a groovy city, so housemates, bikey folk, and friends wouldn\'t discriminate against other groups based on those groups\' reputations. It\'s something we all (presumably) learn in grade school, right? Well, I\'ve been disappointed many, many times over this issue over the past year, and jeff\'s comment is just another example.
Does every bicyclist need to follow the exact same guidelines concerning what is \"safe\"? Does everyone have to have a job to be considered successful? Can creative bike fun and drunkenness only happen at certain locations (bars) at certain times (betw. 10pm and 2am) to be accepted by the community? Does fun have to mean the same thing to everyone?
God, I hope not, but why do some try to fit a huge diversity of bikers (and I\'m not just talking about zoobombers now) into their own ideas of accepable behavior? I think that many people are simply afraid of what they don\'t know, and don\'t want to put forth the effort it takes to expand their ideas. C\'mon, folks! In the name of Freedom, Justice, and Rad America, respect those who are different than you!
I invite Jeff and Whiney (#65) up to the hill on Sunday. Come to Rocco\'s at 8:30 or so, borrow a bike (or use your own), and meet some of the people you\'re categorizing as young and drunk. Sure, some of \'em might be young and drunk, but some\'ll be older and more sober, or older and more drunk, or young and conservative. We\'ll all be pretty fun.
Oh, Jeff and Whiney: no you don\'t _have_ to ride a mini, and yes the pyle bikes have brakes, and yes please wear a helmet and other safety gear including lights, and yes you can go as slowly as you\'d like, and yes you may stop at every stop sign if you\'d like.
And no, if you don\'t come and meet us, and really investigate what we\'re all about instead of seeing only what you want to see, you have no right to make such broad generalizations.
RecommendedDoes every bicyclist need to follow the exact same guidelines concerning what is \"safe\"?
Yes.
In fact, every person has to follow the same guidelines, called \"duty of due care,\" in every aspect of life, 24/7. Your duties are my rights, and vice versa.
Nobody gets to make up their own guidelines, although many do (until it bites them in the ass, and the lawyers are called in.).
When in traffic, whatever your chosen mode of transportation, those guidelines are often, but not always, codified into statutes, and they\'re not optional or suggested-- they\'re mandatory, whether they\'re codified into statute or not.
RecommendedSteve (#73) said:
\"Am I the only one who notices that Jonathon appears to be a mouthpiece for the cops(kruger)?\"
Steve,
Balanced coverage of issues like this is one of the most challenging parts of my job.
I am always open to feedback on how I\'m doing and I appreciate your concern (however I was personally insulted by much of your comment).
I have spent many hours talking to others in the community and thinking critically about this particular issue.
Could I do better? Of course. There is a lot of reporting that can be done here and I am far from a seasoned journalist.
The problem is I have many issues I need to report on and I can\'t stop everything to get to the bottom of this one issue (unlike the Mercury, BikePortland.org is a one-man show).
Is it time for me to be more aggressive with the PPB? Perhaps. I am constantly trying to get to the bottom of what\'s going on.
The difficult thing is that, unlike a traditional newspaper, I am not simply an impartial third-party here. I am very much tied, both emotionally and professionally, to the well-being of the bike community and I take my role in it very seriously. I am trying to keep my eyes on the prize.
If you (or anyone else) have questions or concerns about how I am handling this issue, feel free to ask.
You can also reach me via the 24hr tipline - (503) 706-8804.
Recommendedrixtir is delusional, no one on either Friday or Sunday night got a ticket for abrogating their own or anyone else\'s \'duty of due care\'. this is the crux of the problem with the PPB\'s \'rules-based\' motorist-oriented approach to policing bike activities; i don\'t care whether it is \'bike punks\' riding around together in the dark or roadies in full spandex kit riding the roads of washington county.
in fact, rixtir sounds more like a cop than a cyclist to me - a cop paid to spread propaganda and disinformation and generally perform cointelpro for his handlers.
RecommendedGabe, don\'t sweat these fools. They have no idea how big Zoobomb is and just who in the bike community is a Zoobomber. If they saw a list of how many bike activists, bike shop mechanics, bike frame builders, bike clubs, and even city employees have been to Zoobomb their head would explode, they wouldn\'t be able to process it.
Gus Van Sant is a Zoobomber!
RecommendedJonathan:
Thanks for the comment. Your job is a lot tougher than ours as commenters, where we can shoot our mouths off and not really suffer much as a result. It must be especially so when you talk to a man like Lt Kroger, who can at times actually seem reasonable. I\'ve spoken on the phone with him, and his method of argument is to cite a lot of statistics and appear to draw the logical conclusions from the data. It\'s only later that you realize that he doesn\'t make sense.
For instance, he told me that since 50% of car/bike crashes are the fault of the cyclist and that 1% of traffic is bicycle traffic, it shows that cyclists are overwhelmingly worse road users than motorists. Now, once you think about that for a minute, and realize that it\'s irrelevant what the overall car/bike split is, when you\'re dealing with car/bike crashes, by definition, half the participants in these crashes are cyclists, and half are motorists, so 50% fault should be predicted.
Kroger\'s antipathy towards urban cyclists was also revealed when he told me that he rides his bike, but does it in the countryside, because it\'s too dangerous to ride in the city. So he\'s overstating the danger (I feel WAY safer in the city than on the fog line of a country road), denying that he could do anything that might affect this danger, and implicitly arguing that cyclists who continue to ride in the city are daredevil thrill-seekers, who should be discouraged from continuing this foolish activity.
How do you keep an open channel to a man who is not serving our community? I\'m relieved that it\'s more your job than mine, Jonathan, but I also appreciate that we all have to do our part if we want to change Kroger\'s ways.
RecommendedIt\'s KrUger, peejay.
Know your enemy.
And posting comments isn\'t a \"job...\" unless you\'re rixtir.
RecommendedTeam 242, what a sad life you must lead if you live in the belief that people you disagree with \"must be a cop.\"
And you call me delusional?
Every time I disagree with somebody who can\'t think clearly enough to fashion a coherent response, they whip out the old \"he must be a driver,\" or \"he must hate bikers.\" and now, a new low: \"He must be a cop.\"
Try this on for size: graduating law student who has spent more time studying the law than you ever have or ever will, and who therefore might be presumed to know something about rights and duties.
Now why don\'t you name the post where I said that zoobombers were ticketed for violating a duty of due care? Or are you just making this stuff up? Which is it?
As far as the tickets the zoobombers got, I really don\'t care that it was in a deserted parking lot. My guess is they ran many, many stops that night after they got ticketed, just like they do every Sunday night. And most of those stops they ran were not in a deserted parking lot. So if they got popped in a deserted parking lot, instead of on Burnside, who cares? You\'re implying-- falsely, I might add-- that they never, ever once ran a stop except in the deserted parking lot. I know that isn\'t true, because I\'ve seen them ride almost every Sunday night for years.
But let\'s say that the cops were wrong to set up shop in the deserted parking lot, that they should only ticket where there are actual safety violations. Would you have preferred that they set up on Burnside instead? Would that make you feel better about the tickets?
My guess is the cops set up where they did because it was far, far easier for them to catch everybody there than it would be on Burnside.
RecommendedIt\'s KrUger, peejay.
Know your enemy.
And posting comments isn\'t a \"job...\" unless you\'re rixtir.
Wow. Yet another person who can\'t come up with a coherent argument to support his/her opinion. What are the odds?
Recommended\"Try this on for size: graduating law student who has spent more time studying the law than you ever have or ever will, and who therefore might be presumed to know something about rights and duties.
Ahhhh... and with this revelation of your unabashed arrogance, I am free now to laugh at your comments instead of take them seriously.
Thank you for this :)
RecommendedTry this on for arrogance, Wyatt: People who know SFA about the law making it up as they go along, and telling somebody who actually does know something about the law that he\'s wrong.
RecommendedI read through some of these comments and I see why so many people have a hard time with cyclists. It\'s one thing to use a bike as legitimate transportation. It\'s a whole different thing to use a bicycle to create a traffic disturbance, or as a toy for zoobombing. If a bunch of people are out in the middle of the road on bicycles causing totally senseless random traffic problems, ANYBODY who uses the road has a right to be angry. If a bunch of people are out at night, on a STATE HIGHWAY, WITHOUT LIGHTS OR HELMETS, SWERVING INTO THE TRAFFIC LANE, well then, the police have a responsibility to uphold the law. If yuo saw a driver doing this, wouldn\'t you assume they were driving drunk and want the police to take action?
Using a bicycle to justify your personal feelings of superiority over cars is fine, until you endanger yourself or others and ultimately convince the general public that your actions are doing more to harm our goals than promote them. We can\'t expect drivers to treat us fairly if the only way we can express our anger (concern) over the situation is to abuse the very laws we are seeking to have enforced to help us.
I went on one Critical Mass ride about a year ago. I\'d say half the people were there with good intentions, but a good half of them were just there to play anarchists for the afternoon. It\'s odd that some of the people who claim to be pushing for cyclists\' rights are the same ones that give us all the bad press.
Recommended1. there\'s no such thing as bad press
2. we don\'t control the media or the message
3. the yippies were on to something when it came to media manipulation way back when...
4. there\'s no such thing as bad press
RecommendedYeah, OJ\'s career is booming. Michael Jackson\'s too.
Recommendedoh yeah, now I remember why I don\'t fight on the internet.
RecommendedEvan @ 92
Nice because cars are never used as toys. Always for offical non-recreational trips only! You affiliated with the OTI?
Recommendedhey, I have an idea, why don\'t all you trolls just argue some more?
damn...doesn anyone have anything productive to add to this diatribe?
RecommendedNon-conformist and legalist grandstanding aside here is my problem.
I ride everyday to work, and over the past year it has gotten worse because I now have to dodge both cars and bikes.
Today every other cyclist I encountered either blew a stop sign in front of me, made an illegal left turn from the right hand lane (!) or passed me dangerously close while stopped at a red light and then blew the light. Come on - if no one is responsible the end is near.
RecommendedZoobomb makes no such social or political statements as post # 92 is trying to state. Zoobomb\'s main goal is FUN, it always has been and it always will be. And to fight evil crime!
from our website:
Zoobomb is a weekly bike event that meets every Sunday around 8:30PM across from Rocco\'s Pizza (949 SW Oak) in Portland OR. Bring a bike if you have one, MAX fare ($1.70), bike lights, and any saftey gear you want to wear. You are welcome to bring snacks and drinks but you MUST clean up everything you bring with you. Leave no trace. Its a good time and you WILL have fun!
HELMETS ARE ENCOURAGED
* RIDE AT YOUR OWN RISK *
So as you can see we ask people to buy a MAX ticket, use lights, wear safety equipment, including a helmet. And don\'t litter. It is hard to enforce any of it with over 50 people bombing right now and over a hundred during our anniversary bomb.
RecommendedI\'m so sorry, Paul, that you might have to share the road with other cyclists, and that they are, unlike yourself, imperfect. Get over yourself, and just ride your bike. That\'s my plan!
Recommendedpeejay, if he had complained that drivers were making left turns from the right lane, or blowing red lights (go Idaho-- oh wait, that\'s illegal in Idaho. DON\'T go Idaho!), I don\'t think you would have advised him that they are, unlike himself imperfect, and to get over himself.
Like you said, we all share the roads, and safe, predictable behavior is absolutely necessary when we\'re all sharing the same finite space.
RecommendedZooBombing is not a crime.
Recommendedrixtir:
Let\'s just say that everybody could stand to mellow out on this a little. Nobody here is a perfect rider, and bad shit happens to everybody everyday. While I support any efforts to make us all better and safer at our riding, I know that I do not control others\' actions and I\'m not responsible for them. So, I\'ll ride as best as I can, and you all do the same, and let\'s stop this endless concern about how our actions look as a whole. It\'s a little self-defeating.
That, and Paul is being less than truthful, I think. He says that over the past year it\'s gotten worse with other bikers. I really doubt it. If anything, I believe the average cyclist is better. Of course I have no evidence to prove this, just like Paul.
Recommendedpeejay, some people don\'t believe that what we do affects how we\'re perceived. Others do. Some people don\'t believe there\'s anything we can do (or perhaps should do) to affect how we\'re perceived. Others do.
As long as some people get on a soapbox to say they should be able to ride any old way they want, you\'re going to have other people getting on a soapbox to present an opposing viewpoint.
RecommendedI agree 100% with rixter\'s comments. It\'s not difficult to share the road, obey the laws, and ride sober.
RecommendedI think Paul\'s problem is just that there are a whole lot more bikers out there this year than previously! Watch out for your fellow cyclists, no matter what their stripe!
Recommendedwe seem to have lost A.O. and gained rixter...not a trade up in my opinion.
:-(
Recommendeda.O. can chime in anytime. Pity everybody is so terrified of dissent.
RecommendedNo I don\'t have proof - no one in blog threads ever does. But it is an increase in cyclign use - which is outstanding. But there is a lack of information, training and a lot of poor behavior as a model for new cyclists.
If I get t-boned by a cyclist I doubt he or she will be insured to cover my medical bills like a driver (should be). So I will not lighten up - this is not happy go lucky fun time. I commute to make a living - sorry I have to be a downer.
Recommendedrixtir you\'re such a dissident!!! NOT
RecommendedWhat\'s interesting here is the comparison btwn descriptions of the \'crit mass\' MMR and the recent Roger Geller rides. In the latter case, many cyclists were \'blocking traffic\' riding outside the lane, and even going through stop signs. Many people who I know to be responsible cyclists were there and I didn\'t see any reckless behavior. What\'s frustrating is the black&white interpretation of the law. From descriptions, it sounds like a lot of poeple acted carelessly, but the actual violations were such as are committed by most people. It\'s the endless tirade about laws being written from a driver\'s perspective. We all know that a cyclist who breaks the law endangers nobody else, but that argument is ignored by police (who are supposed to be protecting public safety).
RecommendedThe same \'blocking traffic\' issue occurred during one of the spring Alberta last Thursday events when numerous pedestrians took over a traffic lane.
Essentially anyone who prevents cars from dominating the street, is \'taken care of.\' The solution? Only to create more empathy.
I read with interest and, I must admit, some satisfaction, the article in the July 17th Oregonian regarding enforcement in North Plains of the requirement for vehicles to stop at stop signs. Although the accompanying lectures sounded pretty stupid.
RecommendedLiving near NW Skyline Blvd. I have had the daylights scared out of me more than once by bicyclists blowing through the intersection at Cornell and Skyline. Recently my husband and I were stopped at Vancouver and Broadway by a Portland motorcycle cop who also stopped the car behind us for rolling through the stop sign (what used to be called a California stop). There was no traffic, it was early evening and clear. Other than the fine of $240 the most distressing part was the cop telling us that a bicycle rolled through the stop sign first. Did he stop the cyclist? Of course not.
I believe that bicyclists have the same rights to the public roads that motor vehicles have as long as they abide by the same rules motor vehicles must observe and any others that are specific to bicycles. But frankly, I find myself more than a little annoyed at bicyclists on Cornell and on Skyline who ride 2 and 3 abreast on a road that it is often difficult to pass even one bicycle chugging his way up a hill. Many will refuse to move over as far as they safely can, and others ride with improperly lighted bikes and dark clothing. No doubt these are in the minority, but they give the rest of you a bad image just as rude drivers of motor vehicles give the rest of their group a bad image with all of you.
I used to ride a bicycle, but gave it up, because of the fear factor. I frankly don\'t know how you all do it. As the driver of a motor vehicle I am nearly as frightened that I will hit a cyclist. I\'m never sure when one of you will do something dangerous.
Thanks for the opportunity to sound off. I\'ve wanted to let cyclists know how I feel for quite a few years and didn\'t know of a forum.
Quoting Shawn:
\"And no, if you don\'t come and meet us, and really investigate what we\'re all about instead of seeing only what you want to see, you have no right to make such broad generalizations.\"
I made no broad generalizations and called no one any names. I have seen up close and been pissed off by dangerous behavior by zoobombers. I definitely have the right to form a negative opinion based on my experiences and not sympathize with their current problems even if I agree with some of their points (waste of police resources for example). Some of the actions of some zoobombers disregard others. I don\'t think it is surprising that the entire group doesn\'t get a huge amount of respect in return, even if they do wear a tie.
RecommendedQuoting BURR:
rixtir you\'re such a dissident!!! NOT
I would suggest that you know jack about me.
Recommendedrixtir, BURR, and everyone else...
Can you PLEASE stop the personal back-and-forth?! Let\'s try and keep the comments focused on the topic at hand. Thank you.
RecommendedSusan:
Stick around, and you might learn something.
I\'m sorry you gave up riding bikes. I\'m pretty sure that the reason you did is not because of the actions of other cyclists, but because of motorists. Most of those motorists were behaving in a perfectly legal manner (with the exception of speed limits - which in some studies has a 85% noncompliance rate), and a few who were not driving legally or safely. Whatever the motorists were doing, the reason they made you feel unsafe is because our roads have been optimized for motor vehicle use, even though our transportation authorities give lip service to \"share the road\" slogans. Some riders give up and stop riding; others push on and demand a fair apportionment of road access. [Historical note: the first paved roads were created for the benefit of cyclists, so you have bikes to thank every time you drive your SUV on smooth, paved roads.] Some riders might even get a little resentful about the way they are treated by the official painters of white lines right at the edge of the ditch on country roads, or the motorists who chase them off it; they may want to hold their ground a little more than is polite to do so.
For your specific complaint, you state that
...I find myself more than a little annoyed at bicyclists on Cornell and on Skyline who ride 2 and 3 abreast on a road that it is often difficult to pass even one bicycle...
Well, if it is difficult to pass even one bicycle, you shouldn\'t do it. You should wait until it isn\'t difficult. Otherwise you\'re taking risks with that cyclist\'s life. And if it\'s difficult to pass one cyclist, then the fact that they\'re riding two and three abreast makes it safer for them and you, because you\'re no longer tempted to perform an unsafe act.
You also say:
No doubt these are in the minority, but they give the rest of you a bad image just as rude drivers of motor vehicles give the rest of their group a bad image with all of you.
If bad cyclists are in the minority, and you know it, then why do you feel comfortable going ahead and generalizing about us anyway? We\'ve heard many versions of this argument \"If bicyclists won\'t clean up their act and stop tolerating lawless behavior, then I don\'t feel any sympathy for them when they are harrassed by police or killed by cars\" from so many people, including some other cyclists, and it fails to impress me as a legitimate argument. What responsibility is it of mine to force some other cyclist to obey the law? And why is it that until people I have no control over change their ways, do I have no rights on the road? What percentage compliance would satisfy you? What percentage compliance do you hold your fellow motorists to?
RecommendedQuoting peejay:
Some riders might even get a little resentful about the way they are treated by the official painters of white lines right at the edge of the ditch on country roads, or the motorists who chase them off it; they may want to hold their ground a little more than is polite to do so.
Drivers should also know that sometimes what seems like rude, unsafe, or illegal riding is actually both the safest way to ride, as well as being legal. One example would be when a cyclist takes the entire lane. If the lane is too narrow to safely share with a car, or if there\'s some sort of obstacle that prevents the cyclist from riding further to the right, taking the lane is the safest riding practice.
Related to that, another thing that drivers often don\'t understand is that the road looks different to a driver than it does to a cyclist. For example, while a road may *seem* wide enough to safely share from the driver\'s perspective, to the cyclist it may seem too narrow-- the cyclist may have a legitimate safety concern about avoiding riding in the \"door zone,\" or may perceive a close pass differently than the driver will, or may see glass in the road, or a pothole, that the driver doesn\'t see.
Of course, cyclists should realize that legal riding behavior and courtesy towards other users of the road aren\'t mutually exclusive.
One of my beefs with illegal riding practices is that, from a driver\'s perspective, they blur the line between safe and legal riding and unsafe and illegal riding. A driver sees a cyclist blowing through a red light and knows that\'s illegal. Then the driver sees another cyclist taking the entire lane (perhaps to avoid the door zone), and assumes that the cyclist is also breaking the law. When the lines become blurred like that, it begins to look like all cyclists break the law all the time.
RecommendedRixtir:
Exactly!
RecommendedSusan\'s comment (#112):
\"Other than the fine of $240 the most distressing part was the cop telling us that a bicycle rolled through the stop sign first. Did he stop the cyclist? Of course not.\" Susan
O.K., so he took the trouble to tell you the cyclist rolled thru first. He didn\'t happen to tell you Susan, or did you think to ask, why he stopped you and your husband in your car and not the cyclist?
Maybe it\'s kind of obvious. Of the two vehicles, car and bicycle and the people traveling by way of them in this instance, which of the two logically represents the greater danger to life, limb and property? The cop, working by himself probably, had to make a responsible choice, and it turns out that you and your car were it as compared to the bicycle. Correct?
RecommendedIn fact, we\'ve heard reports that plenty of bikes got tickets at that spot recently. So, I really don\'t get Susan\'s point, other than that she\'s very susceptible to extrapolate her own personal experiences into universal truths.
RecommendedIn fact, the reason the cops have been setting up \'stings\' at NE Broadway and Vancouver is specifically to entrap cyclists, tickets for motorists there are incidental.
Recommendedhehee! Nice Jonathan, as soon as this gets pushed off the front page nobody gives a hoot anymore. Seems to be a problem in the PDX bike community -- we\'ll get all up in arms about anything that is right in our face, but as soon as it\'s not hot news anymore everyone just walks away.
Not that I\'m not glad to see this die...
(but, it does still rage on over here:http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=322200)
RecommendedAnd you think it is a coincidence that it is pushed off the front page so quickly?
Supplanted by a post about to wear or don\'t wear a helmet?
Shheeesh.
Recommended