Last night at Bike Happy Hour I expected to sit down in Rainbow Road Plaza and interview Mayor Keith Wilson. We did sit down, along with a huge crowd eager to hear an unfiltered, unedited conversation with their mayor; but the interview didn’t happen. Several local groups heard about the event and decided to use it as a platform to express their grievances with the mayor. They also didn’t think an event about cycling and transportation politics should happen while their issues are not being adequately addressed. When the situation got heated as folks waiting for the interview confronted protestors, Mayor Wilson decided to leave and we never got an opportunity to talk.
When I first saw “Free Palestine” groups show up with their table, signs and flags, I didn’t make much of it. I know several of the folks involved (they used to be active in cycling activism) and I respect them. I figured they were smart to get visibility for their issue with the mayor. A few of them placed Palestinian flags and a sign that read, “No Sister City with Genocide” (in reference to the City of Portland’s Sister City relationship with Ashkelon, Israel, a city just 12 miles north of Gaza) right behind the chairs where the mayor and I would sit for the interview. At this point, the mayor had not yet arrived.
Upon realizing the flags and sign would be in the livestream shot, Mayor Wilson’s Deputy Chief of Staff Taylor Zajonc approached me to say he would call off the interview unless they were moved out of the video frame. Zajonc made it clear I would have to ask the protestors to move the flags. So I did. After a brief chat, they agreed to move the flags and sign off to the side.
Before Mayor Wilson arrived, I held an open mic as is tradition at Bike Happy Hour. All types of folks stood up to talk — including several of the protestors (see below). They used that opportunity to tell the crowd what they believe and why they were there.
By the time Mayor Wilson sat down and we began the interview, a few other groups showed up. One of them is focused on protesting the ICE facility in South Waterfront, the location of nightly battles with federal agents. One of them had a megaphone and several others were yelling at the mayor. They said he hasn’t been responsive to their concerns and they wanted answers. Free Palestine protestors also began to yell at the mayor and the crowd. They shouted things like, “Bike lanes aren’t as important as genocide!” and they said anyone wanting to hear the interview and who didn’t do more to support their issues were white supremacists.
As the minutes wore on, several folks from the Bike Happy Hour crowd got up and confronted the protestors. I saw some shoving and heard glass breaking. One of the protestors contacted me after the event saying they were treated aggressively and that folks grabbed their signs and intentionally damaged their megaphone.
As all this happened, I acknowledged the protestors and gave them time to make their points and to be heard. At one point I tried to just start the interview over the yelling, but it was clear after a few seconds that wouldn’t work. Mayor Wilson was whispering to me that we could find another venue some other time. At one point he said he’d answer the protestors’ questions if they asked during the audience Q & A. That didn’t go over too well, because they wanted answers right then and there.
Ultimately, I think the mayor felt the situation would cool off quicker if he left, so he did.
That’s how I remember it happening. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
I was really disappointed. I’ve worked very hard for many years to get to a place where a mayor would grant me a live interview in a public street that was full of interested and engaged Portlanders. Mayor Wilson knew he’d face hard questions from me and from our audience, but he still showed up. I was eager to flesh out several issues with him in the agora. To have that moment taken away was a bummer. But as the night unfolded, I felt like what happened was just as valuable — if not more so — than a conversation with Mayor Wilson.
Like I said, I know at least one of the protestors well. He used to be a regular at Bike Happy Hour (we’d even hug sometimes when he arrived!) and was highly involved in bike activism. But as the war on Palestinians became a genocide, he has dedicated himself to fighting for their liberation and humanity. After things cooled off a bit, I spoke with him at length. He explained his frustrations with me and my choices (he thinks I should cover the Palestinian struggle more and use my platform to fight for justice for all people). We talked about how we might work together in the future and what it would look like for more cycling and transportation advocates to learn more about how to fight for human rights and justice for Palestinians — and how Palestinian activists might learn from cycling advocates. From my point of view, it was a mutually respectful and productive conversation.
And as I looked around, he and I weren’t the only ones talking. I saw several folks from the Bike Happy Hour crowd talking with protestors. Groups of people approached me to share their feelings about what happened, and we processed it all, together, in real time, face-to-face. Some of the Free Palestine folks stayed for well over an hour, just talking in the street.
This is what Bike Happy Hour was built for. This is what community is all about! True community-building is not about who you let participate, it’s how they feel when they show up. I don’t believe in picking and choosing who can be a part of our community based on whether or not I agree with them, or if I like spending time with them, or even if they just rub me the wrong way. I feel like if you show up and are open to it, you deserve respect. I have always kept my events and my platform open to as many folks as possible — whether I agree with them or not, and regardless of how they feel about me or BikePortland.
I believe in a big tent and have worked very hard to build one, because we will never have a successful revolution without a lot of people working together! People will make snide remarks about this event from all sides. But to me, this is an example of what makes Portland special. A public, carfree plaza where people with different views can meet and talk to each other, and expose themselves to different perspectives with an open mind and mutual respect.
All this being said, I hope we can find a way to address multiple issues at the same time while not minimizing or detracting from good work being done by others in our community. While these seemingly intractable crises loom (many of them with shared root causes), I believe it’s possible — and vital — for us to work together in a way that supports each other and that makes our entire community stronger. When that happens, imagine the progress we can make.
Thanks for showing up last night. See you next week.
UPDATE, 1:00 pm: Here’s The Oregonian’s take on what happened. Portland mayor abandons bike event as pro-Palestinian, anti-ICE protesters shout him down.
UPDATE, 2:15 pm: Mayor Wilson’s office has shared this statement about his decision to leave:
Mayor Wilson had to leave last night’s Bike Happy Hour event before fully participating, due to protests that made it unproductive and unsafe to continue. We take safety seriously, and the decision was made out of an abundance of caution so the mayor’s presence did not escalate a tense situation.
Mayor Wilson is disappointed not to have shared the evening with community members who came to discuss cycling and street safety. The mayor supports the right to free speech and peaceful protest, and he also believes in the importance of respectful exchange. He had hoped to answer questions, listen, and speak candidly about Portland’s future.
Mayor Wilson remains committed to creating safer streets, expanding access to biking and walking, and engaging directly with Portlanders on issues that matter to them. He looks forward to future opportunities to do so.
Thanks for reading.
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I was there to attend the interview and witnessed the whole thing. I did also end up having conversations with some of the protestors after. Jonathan, I thought the way you handled it all as the dust settled was a thing of beauty. You’re the real deal and we’re all lucky to have you do what you do here in Portland.
This was such a microcosm moment of what is going on in our politics right now on all sides, where everything is a binary and the collective delusion is that the way one changes hearts and minds is through force/domination rather than persuasion and meeting people where they’re at.
Many things can be true at once. We all can be against the genocide and demand it end, against the ICE gestapo, and want safer, better bike infrastructure. All can be true. The logic of the protestors is that nothing else matters because of the urgency of these other horrors, and while I understand this position, functional societies are like a village where people have different roles to play and different priorities to focus on. I love that there are people demanding accountability and action to these crimes against humanity. I also love that there are people passionate enough about biking infrastructure that will no doubt save lives and improve the lives of our people at home. All can be true at once. I could also point out that cars are estimated to have killed (according to Science Direct) 60MM – 80MM people from collisions and pollution alone since their invention, not to mention all of the wars fueled by oil that aren’t considered in this statistic. It is all interconnected.
Something this highlighted for me is the aversion I often feel when I look at the tactics of protest activism – “how is it that I can agree with so much of what is being said, yet I cringe?” It comes down to tactics for me. I feel averse toward anything that demands purity and alienates anyone else.
The ICE protestors screaming and calling everyone “white supremacists” for wanting to talk about bike infrastructure were, in my opinion, a mirror of all of those they critique. They critique the tactics of domination that underlie the unresolved traumas of this country and yet use those same bullying tactics to pound their message, dehumanizing people they don’t know with ad-homonyms and shutting down anything that resembles dissent. They see total disruption of everything as the only answer. There is so much of this wrapped up in the identity that being a “protestor” means seeing the world only as an “oppressed vs. oppressor” binary and that to find any compromise means you’re compromised.
I feel Mayor Wilson failed to meet the moment here. He played it too safe, declined to respond to the protestors, and then walked away. Some of the Palestine protestors I spoke with afterward told me about how they emailed him, called his office, mailed him letters. They did all the things good constituents would do, and yet never got a response from anyone. Ignoring it will not make it go away. He could’ve at least tried to have addressed it.
I believe the most positively disruptive thing we could do culturally right now is collectively redefine what it means to be disruptive. The system has got us all in a divide-and-conquer trance. It’s driving us straight into hell and nowhere fast. The ultimate disruption would be to do the hard work of coalition building and truly healing the divide by recognizing the ways we can end interconnected systems of oppression as a united front.
This is SO well put. Thank you.
The irony is the best outcome for the ICE protestors will result from getting Trump out of power in Washington (and has very little to do with what Mayor Wilson does). And two significant reasons Democrats keep losing is because 1) demands on the Left for purity have driven away moderates (eg. Trans issues and DEI) and 2) Democratically-run places have failed to deliver, partially because we want to have everything at once and thereby don’t accomplish enough (eg. housing affordability in PDX or high-speed rail in CA). The failure of the event to proceed is a tiny example of the disfunction that could keep MAGA in power. That would make all the issues worse, from bike lanes to ICE to the actions of violent illiberal leaders. The shout-down tactics of the ICE protestors do not serve their goals or those of more moderate people who also care about immigrants and abhor the current administration’s policies.
“Left for purity have driven away moderates (eg. Trans issues and DEI)”
So minorities should just be ignored and allowed to be trampled on? When the protestors called people white supremacists, this is a perfect example of how its true.
The democrats keep losing because they continue to move right. They keep losing because they keep tring to get right wingers, like the moderats are, to vote for them. The democrats keep losing because they care far more about profits for their donors than they do for working people.
It may just be that those issues are not as high a priority with moderates as they are with progressives.
The issues may still matter, but it’s not the primary concern.
And thats a part of the problem. The well being of those being trampled on isnt a high priority.
Again, people prioritize things differently and they are allowed to. It’s called individuality.
Are you going to tell a down on their luck homeless person that they should be worried about Gaza?
hilarious to see people still saying the Dems are losing because they’re too close to the left. they hate us! they campaigned with liz cheney! lol. the party is only as “left” as the donors who fund it and that’s really the bottom line.
Your first paragraph is exemplifying the OP’s point. Your second exemplifying why the -D’s keep losing. If you and most other liberals deep down feel the 2024 losses were from Team -D not being “progressive” enough, then we can count on the MAGA crowd sweeping up the 2026 midterms…
Im not a liberal. There are more ideologies than just liberal and conservative.
And yes, the Dem establishment isnt “progressive” enough, which is why those that want positive change just dont go out and vote for the Dems.
aaaand we’ve gone off rails. the reason liberalism is failing to meet the moment is because the democrats ultimately want to preserve the status quo. while crises intensify and regular people struggle and see no future, big $ donors rule dem politics and squish out any attempt to reflect the will of the people (medicare for all, anyone?), only offering mealy-mouthed, focus-tested policy half-measures and “we’re not as bad” posturing. many regular people see no tangible benefit from their voting decisions, so they opt out or head to MAGAland – where they at least get their anger validated and directed at political targets (unfortunately, scapegoats like immigrants, queer ppl, etc – anyone but the mega rich). The only positive vision being put forth by “liberals” is being championed by people like Bernie, Zohran, etc – those who the party tries to crush with all its might. And we wonder why the Dems are historically unpopular…!
.. but, we digress. this is not a defense of last night btw.
Democrats keep losing because they categorically refuse to offer anything to anyone.
Especially poor white people.
Except their donors, including AIPAC.
Except, you know, safe access to abortion, marriage equality, and DEI-based policies in the workplace.
COTW
This is my biggest takeaway, too.
Like yes, I’m definitely disappointed to see the bicycle community lose their opportunity to be heard, and frustrated by many of the things that the anti-ICE activists have been doing lately. Angelita Morillo has talked about her difficulty with them when she should in theory be their greatest ally, and that feels like an indication that something isn’t working here.
But also, if Mayor Wilson isn’t giving these activist groups any time of day to feel heard, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that their tactics start to escalate. Between this and the “not weighing in” on the diverters, I’m getting the impression that Wilson thinks he can just avoid the things he doesn’t want to deal with, and he’s finding that Portlanders are far too stubborn for that. It’s a pretty bad look for him to just dip from the event and leave Jonathan to do the real community-building work.
And what is Wilson supposed to do that he hasn’t already? He has no influence on Gaza and he’s already said the Portland police are not to help the feds for immigration control.
So again, what more can Wilson do as Mayor of Portland, Oregon?
What can Wilson do to effect meaningful change in Gaza? The answer is: Almost nothing. He could try to end the “sister city” relationship, which is largely symbolic, and how is cutting off relationships with Israelis going to help people in Gaza? Many Israelis are as opposed to their government’s actions as the protestors in the USA are.
The protestors at Bike Happy Hour saw an opportunity to take a cheap shot at the mayor and they went for it. They’re a great example of why it’s so hard to get anything meaningful accomplished in Portland.
Strong majorities of Israelis approve of the “war” and of capturing Gaza. (source)
It may be symbolic, but ending the sister city relationship is the ask, and imo that’s reasonable. Not sure if that’s something the Mayor can do on his own, but he can at least take a stance / pressure council. The protesters were definitely frustrating to watch but the mayor’s avoidance was weak and concerningly part of a bigger pattern imo.
Nothing “cheap” about dedication to end genocide. The protesters work very hard every day.
Bullshit. The symbolic stuff matters. Make Israel a pariah.
We don’t have much actual democratic control over our federal government. Individuals also have no formal power over what happens in Gaza, other than like a vote every few years for the president and a number of reps you can count with one hand. Obviously, I would think, it’s idiotic to think that is the beginning and end of what politics is. So while Wilson may not be a federal politician, what he does and says matters. And frankly, it matters more than what you or I do or say, so it’s a point of leverage. It matters that he gets yelled at.
COTW
Horseshoe theory in real life.
The horseshoe theory is utter hogwash and only exists to make centrists feel better about their inaction while refusing to get past western propaganda.
IDK, the political trajectory of the Soviet Union (Bolshevik Revolution to Stalinism) seems like a fairly good historical example of it.
Dominate! Dominate!, does it matter that much if you have a red flag or steal an ancient buddhist symbol? If you blame everything on this tribe, or that tribe and eventually conclude its better for everyone if the kulaks/jews/hutus just disappear?
Centrists have a certain undeniable wisdom–the zeitgeist and flow of history may necessitate a left or right movement but neither one holds intrinsic truth.
Many in the Portland activist movement seem sadly pathological: narcissistic (in the clinical sense), white saviors (where are the racial minorities in this fight?).
They think they are uniquely positioned to help the world more than others and you can see that mental illness reflected in their expressions.
And the cause of the day, which they say should override all others changes too frequently to effect real change.
centrists decrying “radicals” as being blinded by ideology don’t realize that their position is intensely ideological. they sit on their high horse, praising themselves for their wisdom and rationality, unclouded by emotion, but the idea of what is “normal” or “acceptable” is exactly what propaganda works hardest to create. centrists are just as prone to ideological and emotional thinking as anyone else, they’re not special.
Extremists don’t have the self awareness to realize they are extremists.
Many of those who you would deem extremist are just radicals. And radicals are people who reach for the roots. Extremists are the ones who try to destroy the roots.
We live in a nation of extremism, but that extremism has been so normalized, people think those who want freedom and liberation for all are extreme while thinking allowing mass exploitation of billions of people to make a small few rich is normal.
Very well said and thank you for sharing your thoughts. I agree with most of what you said here.
The one area I would maybe disagree (and to be honest, I could be persuaded here to think very differently) is the Mayors response. Watching the video, it sounded like things were getting very heated so leaving to cool the temperature was maybe the right thing to do. I also don’t think his silence to their emails and calls is necessarily wrong either. Sometimes the best thing a politician can do is remain silent. I know that sounds counterproductive, but if he responded and said something to the effect of “I too am concerned about ICE in Portland” then suddenly that is all the news would talk about and any other agenda he would have for the benefit of Portland would be out the window.
I don’t know, there is no easy answer here and I may be giving him the benefit of the doubt. Speaking truth to power is of course important.
Overall I agree with your message, although a bit curious if not disagreeing with the last part. Yes i get many “Gaza” protesters were upset there their letters, emails, calls were “unanswered”. Let’s be honest though
1. Isn’t this similar to complaints many experience rather it be not hearing back from PBOT, the PPB, or historically the city Councilors.
2. While the situation in Gaza is horrible, what exactly is the Mayor of Portland Oregon, 8000 miles from Gaza, supposed to do? Aside from offering platitudes and virtue signalling on BlueSky daily on the topic? Do you think Mayor Wilson has any influence on Netanayu or even any American national leaders that control American funding oe weapon shipments to Israel?
Yes. We all have power, especially if we get together. A mayor has even more power.
WIlson can’t even get the meth and fentanyl off the streets in Portland.
You really have no spine huh? They ruined your event, shouted over you, disrespected you, and you call that a success? Grow a pair John.
Insults are just not a great way to have a conversation about different approaches to conflict, Tim.
Getting mad is easy, also it wouldn’t have accomplished much. I think Jonathan handled this well.
Sheesh bro there’s better way to resolve issues and be diplomatic about it. Not every situation requires whipping out a batman style utility belt and stringing it up.
Is this your same response when a waiter serves you water without a straw? YOU DISRESPECTED ME, I WANTED A STRAW FOR MY WATER.
I think open conflict is no worse than cowering to intimidation and allowing yourself to be walked over. There is nothing noble about being cowardly, which is what John was.
Please take the mayor up on his offer to do the interview another time. I was very interested in hearing what he had to say about transportation issues.
We’ll definitely talk again John. I don’t think I’ll do a sit-down like this anytime soon though. Instead, I’ve asked his office to give me time to talk about the diverters specifically. Hopefully we can talk about that soon.
Hopefully you can find a way to do this in the plaza again. Does it make sense to start having surprise special guests? It’s too easy for one person with a bullhorn to destroy everyone else’s voices around them.
I’m not interested in doing anything to avoid these folks. I’m not here to hide from activists in our community and they’d love to tell the world I was purposely trying to have an interview in a way that kept them from knowing about it. Let’s let this sit for a while and I’ll figure something out.
Please ask or do a separate piece on how we can get *more* diverters on greenways. Cars using greenways to avoid main artery traffic is a real problem and makes cycling and walking on them dangerous. We should make Greenways inconvenient for cars – currently they love them bc so few stop signs. Other cities have figured this out, we should too.
Interview the Mayor via Zoom and then you can control who gets to speak, and when.
He already said, repeatedly, that he does not want to hide. Also Zoom calls can be disrupted!
Seems to me, this would have been a positive exchange if people hadn’t driven away the person that was the focus of the event.
I’m glad the event didn’t completely descend into discord or violence, but shutting down the interview and preventing the q&a from even happening is a bit counterproductive.
I’m a bit frustrated with the way the mayor has operated in his first year on the job. But kudos to him for even showing up, and for trying to do the interview under hostile conditions.
I think your read of the situation is accurate. My sense is the Gaza protesters originally came for a dialogue and the ICE protesters (maybe five people?) came to stop the event. There was zero interest in any dialogue from the ICE protesters. When it became clear what was happening, the Gaza protesters just glommed onto the shut down.
I understand people getting emotional about Palestinians and immigrants. The real disappointing part of it all was to hear multiple chants that were straight up talking points we hear from the likes of Mingus Mapps and the PBA. That bike lanes don’t matter. I think it’s only fair to say that this wasn’t just an ICE protest and a Gaza protest. It was also an anti-bike lane protest. Many people, I’m sure, are not cool with that.
IMO, as annoying and arguably counterproductive as the protestors are, the way the mayor handled the situation was pretty lame.
I can’t find the video, but there was an event where Zohran was interrupted by protestors in a similar way, and, rather than just ignore them and hope they’ll go away, he spoke directly to them, elaborated on why he respectfully disagrees with them, etc.—and then smoothly transitioned back to the main event. Granted, that event was different because there was security to escort the protestors away from an indoor event, but it still makes Wilson look like an evasive coward by contrast.
The protestors here, despite speaking “out of turn,” did at first ask him a pointed question relatively respectfully, and only resorted to full-on tantrum, disrupt-everything mode when he completely ignored them and pretended like he didn’t hear anything, which understandably frustrated them even more.
Ok I just watched the video (couldn’t attend) and your article I feel was far too kind to the protest groups who derailed the interview. I’m embarrassed for them and confused by their tactics honestly. It is ok for a bike news website to focus on biking and transportation related issues. Good grief.
How often do people get the chance to confront the mayor? What tactics are acceptable to you?
Yelling at him about Gaza is about as stupid as yelling at him about putting a base on the moon. Do you understand what city mayors do? And more importantly, what they don’t do.
Youre right, the mayor cant do anything about Gaza, but he can push the end Portland being a sister city with one in a country activley committing genocide. That may be symbiolic, but atleast it would show we dont stand with states actively doing genocide.
And it wasnt just about Gaza, it was about the mass deportations and the rise of fascism in our country. The Mayor absolutley can be a bigger part of being against that. He can help to push for cancellation of the ICE facility in Portland.
Perhaps a pertinent question: Ashkelon is not far north of Gaza, but what role does that city and its mayor play regarding Gaza? In turn, what does that say about whether its city sisterhood with Portland is of any useful leverage?
Do you think people in Ashkelon havent participated in the genocide? Do you think none of them have been in the IDF? How is being a sister city any way beneficial? How does Portland being a sister city with Ashkelon influence Ashkelon influence Israel to not do genocide?
We must cut all ties with Israel. All of them.
This argument has the same structure as the one claiming that the continued assault on Gaza is justified because the hostages have not been released. Both are wrong. The Israeli citizenry can no more be held responsible for the actions of the Netanyahu regime than Gazans or Palestinians can be held responsible for the actions of Hamas, despite the fact that both Netanyahu and Hamas were elected. Just like American citizens should not be held responsible for every atrocious thing Trump does. I dare say more dialogue between ‘regular’ people would help us all better understand the bewildering state of affairs that allows Trump, Netanyahu, and Hamas to all acquire and maintain significant power.
This is a forum for discussing local transportation issues.
Is not any transportation issue that involves the use of public space, changes to public policy, and public money and how it’s spent or used (or not spent or not used) ultimately a political discussion?
Sounds like a good way to get the national guard deployed here.
They are going to get deployed here no matter what. The idea that if we play nice with Trump and let ICE do their thing will keep us from being occupied is just wrong. Trump and the Republicans are pushing for civil war no matter what so they can entrench their power even more and to overthrow our incredibly weak democracy.
Let’s revisit this in a few years and see who ends up being correct.
No, let’s do what we can now.
Angelita Morillo was clear that shutting down Portland ICE would likely result in 1. detainees going to Tacoma (she said it’s worse there for immigrants) and the feds taking over other local/county/state federally-owned spaces as detention facilities. No win/win.
Demanding symbolic useless gestures is pretty silly don’t you think? And the rest of the world really does not care what people of Portland Oregon think.
That still wouldn’t make the activists happy.
Angelita Morillo told a group of us at City Hall that if Portland cancels the ICE office here, it’s a rock/hard place. There is no win-win. Detainees will be sent to Tacoma which she said is worse for immigrants AND feds can take over any other fed building in Oregon they want for detainees.
We all have to find ways to make or demand change in these difficult times. A mayor has more options than most of us
I guess it’s just too much to expect adults to wait their turn to speak and respect the fact that not everyone there wanted to hear about only ICE and Gaza, but wanted to hear about Portland’s own bike and transporation related challenges.
Remember when the adults we call founding fathers enacted a bloody revolution to kick out the Monarchy? They didnt wait their turn.
Expecting civility while mass atrocities are happening is imo not being an adult. Adults, to me, stand up and do whatever they can to fight against those mass atrocoties. Civility is a tool of the oppressor.
Yep, you folks are exactly like the founding fathers. That’s definitely not a sign of narcissism or anything (eye roll emoji)
What are you still doing here if you are doing whatever you can to “stand up against oppressors”? I never could understand why such angry people waste their time screaming at allies with similar views when they could go to a red state or DC or overseas to make a bigger point.
Oh, I was not claiming “us folks” were anything like the founding fathers. And thabk god for that. The founding fathers were not good people. They owned slaves and set up this country to be ruled by the elites.
I was mearly pointing out that claiming that adults waiting for their turn simply isnt true, especially when they think something is wrong.
And yes, people should totally leave their community and loved ones because you think the only way to make an impact is to either go to DC or to leave the country. That makes total sense. The fascists totally arent everywhere in this country and theres absolutley nothing a person in Portland can do to help fight it inside Portland.
That was all of course sarcasm. The fascists are also here in Portland. They are violently removing immigrants right from our community. People dont need to travel thousands of miles to foght fascism when its already at their front door.
Are you truly uncomfortable with the rise of fascism? Or are you ok with it because it doesnt harm whatever comfort you currently have? History has shown time and time again that those who are comfortable dont oppose fascism as long as their comfort isnt initially harmed.
“They owned slaves and set up this country to be ruled by the elites.”
Native Americans owned slaves, African’s owned slaves, African American’s owned slaves, the entirety of South America owned slaves before and after the Spanish invasion, Arabs owned slaves, Egyptians owned slaves, Koreans owned slaves, Puerto Rican’s owned slaves, etc, etc. Just about everyone owned slaves back then and had from the beginnings of this human epoch. I can’t wait for us to be judged by the future for benefitting from the near slave labor from Asian countries who make our clothes and electronics
Even the word “slave” goes back to medieval times and describes people who are considered “white”. I don’t have a larger point with this, just pointing out that slavery wasn’t the socially negative identifier then as it is now. Still plenty of slavery going on today, just not politically correct to talk about where.
“The noun slave is from Medieval Latin sclavus (feminine sclava).
This Latin noun is identical with the name Sclavus, meaning a Slav, the Slavic population in parts of central Europe having been reduced to a servile condition by the Germanic conquest.”
Most of that is accurate. What you’re ignoring is that not everyone doing that enslaving got all self-congratulatory writing “We take these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal” while going home to the people they enslaved.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it.
“Native Americans owned slaves”
Slavery was incredibly rare in the Americas. And the few nations that engaged in it does not mean that its ok that our founding fathers also owned slavery.
The thing that seperates the slavery seen in America with slavery that happened around the majority of the world throughout history was that most slavery in the rest of the world wasnt chattel slavery, and they didnt enslave only specific “races” of people. Slaves in many cultures also had the possibility of gaining their freedom. In America, you were a slave for life. In Ancient Rome an emperor, whose name I can not remember, ended up a slave because anyone could end up a slave. In America a white person could not end up a slave, because they decided only specific people could be enslaved, which was anyone who couldnt be white.
And no, you can not claim people have owned slaves since the beggining of the human epoch. That is something we do not and will never know, so lets not assert that its true. Making assertions about what happened in a time we can never know what happened has led to a lot of myths becoming “common sense.”
It kinda just seems you’re arguing for the sake of arguing now since you’re not offering any citations and you’re also incorrect on much of what you are saying. I don’t feel I’m getting a good faith discussion so this will be it for me.
And where are your citations for every claim you made? Saying someone is arguing for the sake of arguing because they didnt bring citations, when you also didnt bring citations is so wild to me.
One of those myths is that communism works
Why cant a stateless, classless, and moneyless society work?
These have existed in the past, which means it does work.
If we define communism as “each according to their ability, each according to their needs” we find that all of society is built on communism.
USSR=/=Communism
China=/=Communism
Stop mistaking communist leadership that claimes they want to eventually reach communism is communism itself.
America has gone through countless red scares with massive amounta of propaganda about why communism is bad. But yes, Americans are totally experts on communism without having read a single socialist/communist/anarchist philosophers work.
“Why cant a stateless, classless, and moneyless society work?“
ISIS had something very close to that working for….about a year I think?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Islamic_State_(2014)
Worked great if you were a male.
“These have existed in the past, which means it does work.“
When and where??
Isis had nothing close to that.
“Worked great if you were a male.”
Which means it was not classless. There is not a single thing in that wikipedia that shows statelessness, clasnessless, or moneylessness.
“When and where??”
Do you think humanity came into its existence with states, classes, and money? Those were all things that took time for humanity to create.
I highly recommend the bool “The Dawn of Everything” by David Graber and David Wengrow. Its a fantastic book that brings the general public up to speed on where modern anthropology is. The Inuit, before the Europeans invaded and forced their way of life on peope were stateless, classless, and moneyless.
Catalhoyuk, with the archeological evidence we have, shows no evidence of a state existing, no evidence of classes, and money had not been invented by then.
Massive amounts of peasant villages throughout villages were stateless, classless, and moneyless and the land was communally owned.
In modern times, the Zapatistas, while using money for trade with the outside world, is largely moneyless within their society, has no state and has no classes.
Stateless, classless, and moneyless societies have been around for a very long time.
But yeah, you bring up ISIS as a stateless, classless, society. Lol
Solid response, thank you!
I’m a little surprised you are a fan of anthropology. I would have thought that since it’s a product of Victorian euro supremacy values you would be against its concepts (full disclosure I have a degree in Anthropology from my youth).
I think one of the issues we are having is that we might have differing definitions of “classless” in our heads.
The Inuit are indeed a great example, but even they had roles defined by gender and were not egalitarian and of course that kind of substinance living requires an extremely small population.
Once the population hits a certain amount of people than the hunter gather model collapses into warfare limiting the populations again or leads to agriculture which leads to separation of labor which leads to class based society.
I’ll look at your other examples, thank you again for discussing them as I’m interested in delving further.
Ah yes, “communism has never been done right before”. Perhaps several million more deaths will get it correct.
But the answer to your question is evolutionary biology.
We don’t have any concrete evidence that “not communism” works either. And the bodies are still piling up from that.
In tired of this brain dead argument. It’s so self evidently wrong, but people still spam it.
“We don’t have any concrete evidence that “not communism” works either. ”
Of course it works — “not communism” has spread all over the world, and had largely replaced competing forms of economy. If it didn’t work we’d be doing something else.
There you go with comparing reality with pretend reality again. There was a poster here named Watts that made a whole bunch of people mad because Watts kept bringing reality into their fanciful wishes and and they never seemed to be able to meld their wishful thinking to reality and they kept getting frustrated. Watts got banned and hasn’t been back, it was too bad.
If you call this working, that’s pretty dismal.
Why cant a stateless, classless, and moneyless society work?
Because no matter how hard we try, we cannot defeat our own human natures. Human beings have given in to their impulses and their self-interest since the beginning of humanity.
I worked in an idealistic worker-owned cooperative for almost twenty years. It was founded on egalitarianism, consensus and the correlation of shared labor with shared profits — with a healthy dose of communalist idealism.
The problem was that it was founded and run by people who’d grown up in a capitalist economy with a marketplace mindset. The problem was that no matter how hard we tried, we could not disengage from that capitalist economy because we still had to keep the lights on and pay the workers, and pay taxes, and obey the laws of the city and state, and do all the standard things that any small business in a capitalist economy must do.
And individual workers still had to pay rent or a mortgage and utility bills each month, and put food on the table — in a capitalist economy.
With all of that, it was literally impossible for any of us to check our marketplace mindset at the door. Those with the greatest force of personality and the most aggressive communication style managed to push through their favorite agenda items. Those who were more quiet and thoughtful suffered in near silence.
When things began to spiral out of control, those strong personalities found ways to shift the blame far away from themselves, and too many in the cooperative didnt call them out on it until it was too late.
I stayed because I loved the work.
I left because the repeated denial of our human nature — and the impossibility of finding workable middle ground between cooperation and individual self-interest — made it impossible for me to stay.
Cooperatives are not families, and they’re not even really communities. In this socioeconomic setting, they can’t be. Because they are founded by and for flawed human beings, and sooner or later, one person’s self-interest will battle for supremacy over someone else’s. It’s an unavoidable part of our DNA. So forgive me if I cannot trust the notion of stateless and classless anything in what’s still a VERY human society.
Capitalism exists. We can’t simply burn it down without burning a LOT of people. And people have found ways to work along a middle road for millennia, agreeing to compromise, agreeing to work together for something good, and agreeing not to kill each other. And most of the time, it works. But it will never work all of the time. The best we can do is to do our best and keep the peace, even if it’s often an uneasy one. For me, that peace beats the angry, violent alternative.
What you’re describing is that it is hard for a tiny bubble of stateless classless society to take root and live indefinitely in a sea of a fierce capitalism. No kidding, color me shocked.
20 years is a long time for a business, that would have been considered a success for a corporation. The fact that yours eventually succumbed doesn’t say very much other than running a business is hard.
I don’t see why it wouldn’t.
Okaaay. But to be apples-to-apples, then the founding fathers would have had to enact a bloody revolution over what they heard was happening in _some third-party nation_, not England’s actions toward the nascent U.S. To the best of your knowledge, is that what they did?
My point was that the idea that adults wait for their turn while the powers that be tell them to wait simply isnt true. You dont need a perfect apples to apples comparisom to disprove that adults take action and fight against what they believe is wrong.
People in USA have a fascination with the founding fathers, even though they were slave owners and set up this country to be ruled by elites, so I used them as an example of adults not paitently waiting their turn.
Taking action and fighting against what you believe is wrong is fine and noble. What happened on Wednesday evening was not that- it was unhelpful, attention-seeking, and self-serving. The protestors were not “fighting against what is wrong” , they were derailing a community event trying to improve local safety. Showing up to get exposure is fine. Engaging with the mayor during the Q&A is fine. But the unhinged disruption and aggression is misplaced and inappropriate.
Poor historical comparison. Acting out a bloody revolt does not make your cause just. Think about the would-be founding fathers of the Confederate States of America, think about the Cultural Revolution in China, or think about the fascist Falangists who revolted against the Second Spanish Republic. These were all bloody revolts with ardent supporters who gave their lives for bad causes that had their own self-justifying value systems behind them. Say what you will about them, at least they were all focused on their own domestic concerns. You’re not starting a bloody revolt in Portland over Gaza.
I never claimed acting out a bloody revolt makes your cause just. Dont put words in my mouth. I simply claimed that adults do not wait for their turn when they think something is wrong.
And please tell me, what was actually wrong with the cultural revolution in China. What was so good for the peasants before the revolution? Were the fuedal land lords actually good? Or were they terrorizing the peasants for their own gain? Or is just “communism bad?”
And you keep going on about Gaza while ignoring people were there protesting ICE. We are putting people in concentration camps here in USA, and we better hope people eventually revolt against it, because we will never be able to vote this out.
You mean besides the massacres, repression, torture, and rape?
“Fatality estimates vary across different sources, ranging from hundreds of thousands to millions, or even tens of millions.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
The unfortuante reality of war is that people gat raped. Its horrible. But that doesnt mean the cultural revolution was bad.
And when you have a range from hundreds of thousands to tens of millions, then the numbers mean absolutley nothing. It was a civil war in a very populous nation. Of course lots of people died. Thats also another very unfortunate reality of war.
I ask again, was life good for the peasants of China before the revolution? Do you think the fuedal landlords and their armies werent raping the peasants? Do you think the fuedal landlorda werent starving the peasants and robbing them of everything? Or is it just “communism bad?”
The Civil War is different and separate from the Cultural Revolution. Two different events. One was a civil war, one was a disastrous social experiment. 2Wheels is discussing the disastrous social experiment, which one are you talking about?
I would be less flippant about the horrors you’re discussing if you haven’t seen them or even know which event you’re talking about.
The Cultural Revolution wasn’t a war, it was internal government/political repression. But it also killed millions — was that just collateral damage?
I want people who think this was just the price of progress as far from power of any kind as possible.
The reality is that life for Chinese peasants was not good before the Cultural Revolution, and it was not good for those who survived after the Cultural Revolution.
“I want people who think this was just the price of progress as far from power of any kind as possible.“
It’s been awhile since I’ve agreed with someone here so wholeheartedly!!
So…same argument for capitalism?
Also it lead to probably the greatest leap forward in human well-being in history, so there’s that.
People act like nobody dies an unnatural death outside of China. The body count in “the West” and all the places it’s meddled in dwarfs everything else.
“Also it lead to probably the greatest leap forward in human well-being in history, so there’s that.”
Citation needed.
It was one part of their great leap forward. That’s what I’m talking about.
They have not had a perfect past, much like our country. And by the nature of their size, bad faith critiques tend to point to large numbers of people, say in a famine.
People tend to disregard the death toll of the industrial revolution, imperialist wars (Vietnam, Korea), and the fact that they compressed a lot of progress in a short time.
The problems with the Great Leap Forward extend well beyond “bad faith critiques”. You haven’t even shared what you think made it such a huge advance for humanity, or what could possibly have justified the enormous suffering and death toll.
(You can try to deflect attention by pointing to Vietnam and Korea, but you’ll notice I’m not crediting those conflicts with leading to the “greatest leap forward in human well-being in history”, praise I’d reserve for something like the Enlightenment, or modern medicine, or maybe BikePortland.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
It actually doesn’t. Between the Russian and Soviet purges, the Cultural revolution and Pol Pot and any others I’m leaving out, communism (or faux communism if you like) leads everyone else in bodycount in the last several hundred years.
Maybe ask Mayor Wilson to return all of Portland to the first nations people we have colonized right here to make up for the genocide that happened right here. Wonder if he can make it happen. Think globally, act locally.
But that would mean personal sacrifice.
i’d love to see the Portland left give their or their parent’s $800k+ homes back to First Nation’s peoples in alignment with anti-colonialist values.
While a noble cause, I’d rather stop the current genocide from being fully carried out.
This isn’t hard to understand, there’s just a mental block (usually racism) keeping people from seeing the obvious.
You think the native american genocide is over? That it’s not ongoing right now? Thats ridiculous!
You could sell your house and donate to the Gazan cause of your choice if you don’t want to give your home to the real locals. After all, stopping “the current genocide” is the most important thing in the world, isn’t it?
What racism are you intimating? You’re the one refusing to benefit the native population or the Gazan population by selling your home. You are keeping your wealth all to yourself.
How? What even vaguely plausible future do you see for the region?
You mean mass atrocities like October 7th?
“You mean mass atrocities like October 7th?”
I guess you missed out on all the atrocities that Israel has been doing for decades to the Palestinians that caused Oct. 7th.
You dont get to oppress, kill, and steal the land of people and then get upset when they fight back against their oppressor.
Do you think Jewish freedom fighters in ww2 were bad? Do you think Indigenous Americans who fought back against the Europeans are bad?
Wilson didn’t cause the bad performance of the protestors. They did that.
Israel didn’t cause 7OCT, Hamas did that.
You have to learn and understand personal responsibility.
As much as that is certainly a dynamic of war, so is the eventual defeat of one party. The odds it is Israel in this case is infinitesimally small.
***Comment deleted by moderator for inappropriate generalization based on race. – JM ***
Interesting to see run of the mill racism from you. Is that the centrist way? A little bit racist?
Or it’s just observation of historical events.
I guess you missed out on all the atrocities that the Arabs were committing against innocent Jewish immigrants to British Mandate Palestine as early as 1921 and 1929 in the Jaffa Riots and Hebron Massacre that caused Jewish militias to form and Israeli independence to be declared. You lot love to say that “history didn’t start on Oct. 7th;” well, it didn’t start in 1948, either. No Jews were oppressing, killing, or stealing land from Arabs in British Mandate Palestine in 1921 or 1929.
Jews are just as indigenous to that land, if not more so, than Arabs are. The entire ethnogenesis of the Jewish people came about there, and far earlier than the first Arab identified as an Arab; Arabs came much later from Arabia, colonized, Arabized, and Islamized the Levant, and intermixed with local Levantines, and that mixture is where Palestinians descend from. Before the 1960s, you would be hard-pressed to find an Arab in Palestine who referred to himself as Palestinian and not simply “Arab.” And in the 1930s, “Palestinian” generally referred to Jewish immigrants rather than Arabs, who again referred to themselves as “Arabs.”
No, Jewish freedom fighters in WWII were not bad. No, Native Americans who fought the Europeans were not bad. And no, indigenous Jews who returned to the land of their ethnogenesis to carve our a home for themselves by purchasing land at exorbitant prices from absentee Ottoman landlords, only to be attacked repeatedly by the descendants of colonizing Arabs, were also not bad. They were merely trying to restore their rightful rule of their own homeland and reinstall their native culture as the dominant culture – the same as what Native Americans fighting against what Europeans tried to do, except unlike the Native Americans, the Jews succeeded in ousting their colonizing oppressor.
So many Oregonians don’t even know Jews built/completed their first temple in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount (Mount Moriah) in 957BCE long before Christianity and Islam even existed. Why is this, that they don’t know?
These historical arguments are not particularly helpful in finding a way forward that Israelis and Palestinians can live peacefully as neighbors. Both sides need to let go of the past and look to the future and find some way to build peace together.
Many things can be true at the same time, for sure. But when Jews are called “colonizers” by activists, it shows ignorance that Jews originated from the Levant. This historical perspective matters in navigating workable solutions.
I’ve mentioned here before that clearly Jews are indigenous and the Arabs are colonizers by observing that a mosque is built on top of Temple Mount and never get a response. It’s like reality isn’t as important as maintaining their place in their social bubble. Or something darker which with the majority of these responses I am starting to believe.
Exactly. The Dome of the Rock is built upon the ruins of the 1st and 2nd Temples.
The fact that a mosque was built atop a temple isn’t really that informative. We all know that Islam wasn’t born until 700 years after Christ’s time. Of course there are temples that predate that.
“We all know that Islam wasn’t born until 700 years after Christ’s time.“
Read some of these comments before you seek to claim “we all know”. Clearly, few people here know the history then or the more immediate history.
Arabs existed before Islam.
Yes, and until their period of colonization began with the creation of Islam, they were mostly found on the Arabian Peninsula. What’s is your point?
The irony is there’s no such thing as God. People are fighting over imaginary entities.
Perhaps in some ways; in others, they are very real.
And very little of what is happening in Gaza is because of differing theological views.
How do you explain the desire to kill Jews enshrined in the Hamas Charter?
Hamas is a terrorist organization sponsored by Iran. I don’t think they want to destroy Israel because of doctrinal differences with Jews about the nature of God — I think the conflict is really about land and power and resources, with perhaps a sprinkling of culture war thrown in.
Israel which is attacked by Hamas who is supported by Iran who is sponsored/allies with Russia who is invading Ukraine which is adored by the left while simultaneously espousing Russian social/economic theories.
Wait, who’s the bad guy again?? Is there a bad guy?I’m losing track. My head hurts now.
Hi Jake,
Don’t forget the role of oil. Petroleum corrupts. To close the circle of the disruption by Free Gaza protesters of a bike infrastructure event, and to drive home the irony, one of the most effective ways to change the dynamic in the middle east would be to wean ourselves off oil, globally. Cycling is part of that. Anyone who is troubled about what is happening in Gaza should also support active transportation. Diverters in Portland probably do more to help Gaza than low-information protestors with bull horns.
It’s probably worth noting that the US now produces more oil than it consumes. We are a net exporter.
By all means we should wean ourselves from oil and other fossil fuels using all strategies (active transport, electrification, transit, etc.) but I don’t know that diverters in Portland would help Gazans any more than yelling at the mayor did.
We’ve got petro-states in the US too. Look how screwed up Texas has become. Weakening the market for oil would improve many problems globally.
The diverters infinitesimally do since they at least help people with active transportation. The yellers do absolutely nothing.
This really is the COTW, Lisa. It drives home the point of “act local, think global” that by focusing on things one can actually do it affects things downstream that one can’t really do anything about otherwise. Even with bullhorns. (I really hate losers/anyone who use bullhorns in a crowd!)
I would cry tears of joy the day oil was devalued to the point of being worthless and not worth bringing to the surface. So much evil on a micro and macro scale would no longer be able to be funded with petro dollars. Oil pollution and all the things made with it keeping us from what we are as a species would blissfully go away.
It isn’t in the charter. You’re spreading more lies.
The original Hamas charter did in fact include that morsel; in 2017 they updated the charter and changed “Jews” to “Zionists”. Hamas leaders still talk about annihilating Israel, which to a simple non-apologist like myself, sounds a bit like killing Jews.
The full quote included in the original charter is: “The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say: O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him”.
Yes, they changed it, which you acknowledged, then went on to quote the original (i.e. irrelevant) version in the same comment.
Your own comment highlights your lie.
But what the charter says is besides the point, even though you lied about it. It does not excuse genocide.
My lie? What on earth are you talking about?
I agree that what the charter says is beside the point; what Hamas did on October 7th is much more relevant. Actions, as they say, speak louder than words.
Sorry, I missed that you replied to my reply to Jake9.
Either way you had a deliberately misleading comment.
If actions speak louder than words, which I agree with, Israel is absolutely doing a genocide. They are the invaders, they are the ones doing the killing. They need to be stopped.
1) They changed the word “Jew” to “Zionist” and kept the same meaning. Just like people here on this site do.
2) The Arabs are the invaders and colonizers. It’s historically clear.
3) What is Israel doing that is a genocide? You and everyone else just seem to think saying the word proves it. It doesn’t.
4) Both sides are doing plenty of killing.
Here are some of my favorite articles from the Hamas Covenant. Can you imagine replacing “muslim” with “american” or if we had these articles in the Declaration of Independence with the same word substitutes?
Article 7
Article Seven
The time(16) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad(17),
which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim)(18)
Article Eight
Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Quzan its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief.
Article Twelve
Hamas regards Nationalism (Wataniyya) as part and parcel of the religious faith. Nothing is loftier or deeper in Nationalism than waging Jihad against the enemyand confronting him when he sets foot on the land of the Muslims. And this
becomes an individual duty (25) binding on every Muslim man and woman; a woman must go out and fight the enemy even without her husband’s authorization, and a slave without his masters’ permission.
This [principle] does not exist under any other regime, and it is a truth not to be questioned. While other nationalisms consist of material, human and territorial considerations, the nationality of Hamas also carries, in addition to all those, the all important divine factors which lend to it its spirit and life; so much so that it connects with the origin of the spirit and the source of life and raises in the skies of the Homeland the Banner of the Lord, thus inexorably connecting earth with
Heaven. When Moses came and threw his baton, sorcery and sorcerers became futile.
From the ACLU site…
https://safe.menlosecurity.com/doc/docview/viewer/docN629823C8B82A63bb4c10a230926d6624ca83de493e1593384b1734a02797fc01a2483e88547c
1 and 2 are just your opinions, and I completely disagree, so that won’t go anywhere. Zionist has a very different meaning to Jew. And Zionists invaded a land that hundreds of years of Palestinians and a minority of Jews lived in, claimed it as their own, and are pushing the Palestinians out.
3 your layman politically motivated and flexible definition of genocide isn’t what experts mean, and if you don’t care, then sure, words have no meaning. They are trying to deliberately kill as many Palestinians as possible so that they can take the land. Let’s just search and replace “genocide” in your head with that, and you can keep defending it. It’s war crimes and evil either way.
4) no they’re not. At bare minimum, 60k Palestinians have been directly killed by Israel. Well into the hundreds of thousands is more likely if all the starvation is counted (it will be). October 7 was brutal, but at the high end it was less than 2k casualties. It was much less, and many killed by Israel itself, but sure, you could blame the friendly fire on Hamas. Either way, nothing justifies the insane response that is still ongoing.
You also can’t discount the destruction of the whole area. All culture, all institutions, hospitals, schools, homes, demolished.
Israel must be stopped. The concept of Zionism was always a mistake, and would inevitably lead to this. Hopefully someday we will see the end of Israel *as it exists now* (don’t forget that last part), but at the least it is reasonable for Americans to protest and pressure their own government to stop assisting in it’s current barbarism.
You and Jake9 need to stop looking backwards, and start looking forward for a viable solution. You both offer simplistic solutions (the other side should just surrender) and self-serving potted histories (the other side started it and ours was here first) that contribute nothing to figuring out the way forward.
There are no good guys in this conflict. Everybody is bad. Somebody may be worse than another person, but I can’t tell who. Everybody has too much blood on their hands, and arguing about who has more is so pointless.
Figure out a stable end state, and work backwards from there. And please… just let go of the past.
Sure, obviously. But this pretending we don’t know what the next step needs to be is just silly to the point of just agreeing with the side doing the killing. The first step has to be a ceasefire, and to stop expanding settlements. No high minded above it all ideas can work until then. That is the only possible next step, or a full ethnic cleansing.
And you act like we don’t have any tools to make that happen. The US could absolutely put an end to this. We could. We won’t, because Trump and also Democrats. But if they won’t pressure Israel, the only thing we individuals can do is less direct. Boycotts. Legal action (any country is able to prosecute Israelis, see https://www.hindrajabfoundation.org/), and yes, just making individual Israelis feel like pariahs anywhere they go. It’s all indirect, but there isn’t really anything direct we can do.
A ceasefire isn’t a simplistic solution. It’s a necessary first step.
If Hamas wanted a ceasefire, they could lay down their arms and release the hostages, and would almost certainly get one. Why not condemn them for prolonging the conflict (that they started) and immiserating the Palestinian people? Like I said… simplistic thinking.
I agree with you that “we” don’t have any tools to make Israel do anything. Perhaps the US government does (perhaps not), but as you note we (you and I) don’t have a lot of influence there on this issue.
Holding individual Israelis, who are equally powerless, is morally wrong. By your reasoning, Americans should be hounded wherever they go for the sins of Trump. Not to mention the Chinese, Afghans, Russians, Palestinians, Cubans, and probably a lot of other people as well.
Not for me, no thanks. I will continue to welcome everyone into my community, and remain greatful that most of the rest of the world still welcomes me.
“If Hamas wanted a ceasefire, they could lay down their arms and release the hostages”
Dumb trope, has already been disproven many times over. Israel has rejected any such agreement.
“Holding individual Israelis, who are equally powerless”
False, wrong. We’re talking soldiers. They are criminally liable and can be prosecuted by any country willing to do it (they have narrowly escaped some attempts). Example:
https://www.hindrajabfoundation.org/perpetrators/no-safe-haven-hrf-seeks-prosecution-of-israeli-war-criminal-yair-ohana-in-greece
“Article 28 of the Greek Constitution: international treaties such as the Geneva Conventions and the UN Convention Against Torture form part of domestic law and prevail over conflicting provisions.
Article 8 of the Greek Penal Code: Greek criminal law applies to crimes committed abroad when international treaties so require.”
“Article 7 of the UN Convention Against Torture (Law 1782/1988) and Articles 49, 50, 129, and 146 of the Geneva Conventions (Law 3481/1955) impose an absolute duty on states to prosecute or extradite perpetrators of torture and grave breaches (“aut dedere aut judicare”).”
Non-soldiers in this conflict also support the government, so holding them responsible in terms of boycott pressure is absolutely morally justified.
“Americans should be hounded wherever they go for the sins of Trump.”
Absolutely we should. When people say “Trump doesn’t represent us”, they’re wrong. That’s us right now like it or not.
Yes it is, and it’s an example of the same sort of simplistic solutions you are demanding. You can see that asking one side to unilaterally give up is a non-starter, so I don’t see why you can’t fathom asking the same thing of the other would be as well. Right now, both sides want to keep fighting, and so they will.
When you said you supported “making individual Israelis feel like pariahs anywhere they go,” then said that Americans should be hounded as well because of Trump, I thought you were talking about persecuting individuals, not soldiers that are guilty of war crimes subject to universal jurisdiction. I’m sorry if I misunderstood.
Instead of mistreating (or whatever you do to make them feel like pariahs) random people from a country whose government you dislike, prosecute those guilty of war crimes and terrorism, and punish them according to the law. And while you may feel that Trump represents you, he absolutely does not represent me, and I’m pleased to have found that most foreigners I interact with (all, actually, here and abroad) have the maturity to understand that.
I’m about the last person to use the word “colonizer” in its modern lefty sense, but it seems simply true that people who moved to Israel from, say, Europe, were colonizers, especially before the founding of the state of Israel (after which they would be better termed immigrants).
That some of those people could draw some connection to people who lived in the area a thousand years before doesn’t seem particularly relevant to me. In many cases they displaced real people, planting seeds of the chaos we see today.
None of that means that I think the solution is to somehow uproot the state of Israel, but arguing that old testament era history justifies anything today is not something I’m sympathetic to.
“after which they would be better termed immigrants”
Still colonizers after that. They didn’t stop colonizing just because they pretend it’s legal.
Sure. My recently naturalized Indonesian neighbor is a colonist.
Did the US colonists stop being colonizers the moment they wrote the declaration of Independence? Is that the line for you? You’re not a colonizer if you write down on a piece of paper that you aren’t? Seems pretty flimsy.
Yup… the world is full of arbitrary definitions of lines placed along a continuum.
Oh, my point is that that isn’t the definition. It’s not up to colonizers to decide if they are colonizers.
Right — everyone can decide for themselves. That’s one reason this argument is pointless. Best to drop it and move on to solutions.
Those damn colonizers…and those damn Brits.
It’s all their fault, esp. Balfour.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_for_Palestine
Yes, absolutely agree.
“The Balfour Declaration was a public statement issued by the British Government in 1917 during the First World War announcing its support for the establishment of a “national home for the Jewish people” in Palestine, then an Ottoman region with a small minority Jewish population.”
It was/is an unambiguous colonial invasion.
This obviously causes unrest, and as a result, that small minority, which was previously just living there, declared independence and has been systematically ethnically cleansing and more recently committing genocide.
A lot of blame can be paid at the feet of Europeans, esp British, for this. But at the current moment, people are protesting our governments support for this colony.
Indeed — it can be true that Jews originated in the Levant, then colonized the area later, which is essentially what happened.
As I’ve said elsewhere, this doesn’t delegitimize Israel, and on a practical level the question seems pointless, as the solution to the conflict isn’t going to be found by pointing fingers at the sins of the other party (and there is plenty of blame to go around). There will be no resolution without letting go of the past.
It’s not an argument. It’s a fact that Jews are indigenous and Arabs are successful colonizers. If the activists can’t acknowledge historical truths, how can the activists even begin to tackle what is true versus what is propaganda right now?
How do you know the Biblical Jews didn’t displace an earlier group?
In terms of resolving today’s problems, it simply doesn’t matter.
And the Europeans wiped out the Neanderthals (we still have bits of their DNA in our genome). There’s a lot of genomic evidence verifying Old Testament history. If I remember correctly, you can trace Jewish ancestry in the Levant back about 10,000 years.
Like I said, if the activists refuse to know the past, how can they know what’s happening now. The gazan propaganda machine gets a lot of mileage by claiming they are indigenous and the Jews are colonizers when that is simply not true. It’s the other way around and yet you can read here others parroting the lie.
I want people to decide through knowledge and reality which side they support and to realize it is a horrible, gruesome war fought between combatants and not a genocide of innocent victims.
I’m not saying people shouldn’t study history, I’m saying that the question of who was there first is not relevant to finding an accommodation that will allow the two peoples to live together side by side peacefully.
Both sides have a very deep well of legitimate grievances to draw on. Any solution will have to be forward-looking, and both sides will have to figure out how to leave those grievances and claims behind.
That said, it is factually true that modern Jews did essentially colonize the area that is now Israel, even if other Jews had lived there hundreds or thousands of years before. That doesn’t mean their current presence is illegitimate, any more than your (presumably non-Indian) presence in Portland is illegitimate. It simply has no bearing on the current situation.
By that argument, Europeans are indigenous to Africa. But we all know that’s a load of crap.
The last good opportunity for that was the Oslo peace process in the 1990s, not really that long ago. Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated in 1995 for promoting it.
Rabin — “Let me say to you, the Palestinians: We are destined to live together, on the same soil in the same land. We, the soldiers who have returned from battle stained with blood, we who have seen our relatives and friends killed before our eyes, we who have attended their funerals and cannot look into the eyes of parents and orphans, we who have come from a land where parents bury their children, we who have fought against you, the Palestinians – we say to you today in a loud and clear voice; Enough of blood and tears. Enough.”
Since Rabin’s assassination, the whole area has been painful to watch. In 2000, Arafat rejected a peace offer that would have given the Palestinians the Gaza strip and most of the West Bank.
This is the history many Portland activists don’t know.
Or don’t want to know.
It’s this. Activists don’t manage ambiguity very well.
Those tactics were disrespectful to every attendee there. However, protestors seldom realize how selfish their actions really are.
“How often do people get the chance to confront the mayor?” Every single public city council meeting, that’s how often.
Yes, they don’t get to dictate how Jonathan uses his platform which he has built with decades of hard work and at the cost of other employment. Perhaps they should build their own platform to get their message out but given what I witnessed last night, they’re not able or willing to do something like that.
Jonathan doesnt own the PUBLIC plaza this event was held in. They arent shutting down bp. They went to a public event in a public plaza.
It always blows my mind that people think those wanting justice should “build their own platform.” Why? Why can they not engage with people on other platforms? Why should they isolate themselves? Do they make you feel uncomfortable with your complicity?
You have no sense of proportion. You are really hurting your own cause.
“You have no sense of proportion. You are really hurting your own cause.”
If people arguing and being loud while atrocities are going on, and you arent with that cause, then you never cared about that cause in the first place. People who claim protestors are “hurting the cause” are people who do not give a fuck because they are comfortable in life.
We finally got there. You’re marketing an idea and it is bad marketing. I don’t care about pants when I am doom scrolling, but a good ad makes me care about pants. Between Ashkelon and wherever else I am supposed to be enraged by behavior that I can’t control, I do not care, but this has certainly increased the amount I don’t care.
How ’bout giving everyone else there the respect and space to voice whatever their concerns were? What are you afraid of? Should everyone just show up with a blowhorn and shout out their personal grivevances? Why do you think yours are more imporant than anyone else’s?
because they are progressive “activists”.
The main one that comes to my mind is that routinely appropriating the platforms of fellow coalition partners risks alienating both the activists (Jonathan mentioned he had been working for ‘decades’ to get an opportunity like this) and their audience. From what I observed yesterday, Jonathan was placid as anything. But the rest of us were totally pissed off.
Then Jonathan shouldnt have held it in a public plaza where protestors have every right to show up.
And the mayor should have engaged instead of running away.
Hi Sky,
Thanks for your comment and props for holding your own in this debate. You’re right that Wilson should have engaged. I, for one, would have been quite interested in the exchange.
I believe that to effectively fight back we need to have a cohesive movement represented by a coalition large and motivated enough to effectively wield political power. A corollary is that everybody in the coalition will need to violate (or compromise) their principles for the sake of shared political power. I think it’s a tactical error (on the part of Gaza and ICE activists) to alienate transportation activists if for no other reason than JM seems to have more access to Keith Wilson than the ‘hard left’. But more important than that access for those of us fighting for justice is the collective political power that the community he (Jonathan) leads wields.
The protesters made it clear that they view local transportation issues as a frivolous bourgeoisie preoccupation. I think there is some validity to that viewpoint. But I would ask you consider that our failure to speak as loudly as you like on some issues may not be because we “do not give a fuck because [we] are comfortable in life,” but rather because we are reluctant to blow up coalitions that include neolibral/establishment/sellout elements for the sake of what we deem to be limited gains. It’s not clear to me that closing the Macadam facility will make things better for immigrants (they will just get sent to Tacoma, or Gitmo, or Uganda, or ???).
In another comment, you mentioned Bernie’s presidential run as our last chance and your dissatisfaction with the fervor of the internal democratic opposition to Bernie. I would offer the complementary observation that I found Bernie supporters way more willing to unload on HIllary and her supporters than on the then incipient Trump coalition. So much bad blood from that defeat. How about we let it go and try to row in the same direction?
Thanks for your engagement.
I appreciate your response. And I appreciate your view about making a big tent, although those werent your words. While I agree in theory that as big of a tent as possible is great, far to often are minority groups ignored in favor of those with bigoted views who would like to harm those in minority groups. Far to often are the minority groups told to let go of their values of being treated as an equal human being, all so we can let bigoted people in the group. There really does need to be some basic lines drawn. If we want to allow people who dislike minority groups into the tent, they need to be willing to put in the work to address their bigotry.
As for Macadam, it is tricky, and Im not fully on one side or the other when it comes to closing it. But we already know that people from here are getting sent to Tacoma instead of to Macadam. ICE does not care about the law and has shown they will take immigrants to out of state.
For Bernie, yeah, some Bernie supporters were absolutley toxic. No doubt about that. However, they arent people with any real power. The Dem establishment, who fought harder against Bernie than Trump, do have power. The toxicity is not ok, but I would argue those in power who support their donors over regular people do far more harm then the toxic Bernie supporters. I think it should be kept in mind that those who are on the anti-capitalist left and those who support corporate dems like Clinton are diametrically opposed. They do not have the same values at all.
History has shown time and time again that liberals, and I mean actual liberals and not many of those who use the term without having an understanding of what liberalism really is but instead align use that label because they think minoroty groups should be treated with respect and dont want to be considered conservatives for good reason, have sided with the fascists. They did so in Germany. They did so in Italy. They have done so every time a fascist regime has come up. Personal liberty for private property owners ends up being more important than personal liberty for everyone, and fascism exists to protect private property from workers who are gaining ground.
Hilary Clinton, Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and the majority of the Dem establishment will support fascism because the other option, heading towards forms socialism, can not be allowed to happen.
So when those of us who are opposed to capitalism have a hard time aligning ourselves with those opposed to our values, I hope this helps you understand why.
And no, I do not think the authoritarian socialist and communists are good, and should not be allowed to come into power.
Thanks for your thoughtful and well articulated response. I think “big tent” is very good description of my political vision.
No! I think this assessment is wrong, and I think it reflects an unfair and historically selective reading of (Hillary) Clinton’s politics that strikes me as antifeminist and uncharitable. I don’t think there is actually much conflict in values; the conflict, IMHO, is largely in cultural style and tactical priorities.
In every cycle in which the dem establishment has attained any policy setting power since Nixon (including the presidencies of Carter, Bill Clinton, Obama, and Biden) they have spent their political capital moving our country in a socialist direction. CHIP, ACA, the earned income tax credit, CFPB, etc. Republicans fought them tooth and nail at every turn, incessantly braying about socialism. And those attacks were often very effective. Biden was more ambitiously redistributionist than any president since FDR, but he got little thanks for it. So while I understand your discomfort with the affinity of ‘corporate’ dems for symbols of American capitalism, politically opposing them is counterproductive to progressive goals.
Cheers!
what a horrible, narrow-minded, selfish understanding of public space and public events. Yuck.
“Then Jonathan shouldnt have held it in a public plaza…” [sic]
Because public spaces are only okay for those who agree with you?
Or because every public space is an engraved invitation to provocation and disruption?
If you want to live in that world, fine. But don’t expect to persuade many others to join you there.
Understanding that public plazas are where people get to practice free speech, even in forms not everyone likes does not equal someone believing public plazas are only for those I agree with.
Bike Infrastructure Matters. Take these demands for Keith Wilson and City Council to City Hall meetings. The last time a group went to demand the ICE permit be revoked, the council adjourned the meeting and activists had a private meeting with Angelita Morillo. That was effective.
Many of us in the bike community distance themselves from these agitators. They are the same ones that host an obsessive amount of ‘protest’ rides. If anyone’s had the misfortune to be on a ride with them (they go on other rides too, not just the narcissistic ones they host) they have a thoroughly unpleasant, angry, low vibe. I’m not surprised at their latest ‘look at me, it’s all about me’ stunt.
It’s sad that these ***portion of comment deleted by moderator – JM *** were able to successfully ruin what would have been a good engagement with the mayor.
The Mayor nor the City of Portland has any influence over what happens in Gaza. Hell, the fascists love that Portlanders are upset.
These people could be a parody or a plant they are so absurd.
If you were sitting down with Merkley or Wyden, I’d at least understand it, but shouting at people trying to speak in public has never achieved anything, ever. These folks don’t care about the people in Gaza, they only care about their Tik Tok/Instagram clout and building their own story as white savior activists.
Civility has never acheived anything while atrocities are happening. Requiring people to be civil while there are mass deportations and the rise of fascism in the nation while there is an ongoing genocide happening will make sure nothing positive happens. Civility is a tool for the oppressor.
for what it’s worth I could give a shit about civility. But I bet I could have moderated an uncivil conversation if folks would have given me the opportunity. Oh well! Maybe next time.
And yet, in this very thread, you censored another commenter. Pick a lane.
I don’t think it’s odd to moderate comments differently than how I feel about civil disobedience.
Ability to moderate depends on civility — following the moderator’s requests, yielding the floor to people with differing views, etc.
Uncivil conversation is inherently resistant to moderation, so good luck with that.
I wasn’t talking about civility in these comments. I was talking about civility in terms of protesting unjust stuff out in the world. I was merely saying that I’m one of those people who is fine with being uncomfortable in public when folks are protesting. That doesn’t mean I support incivility. I am just saying it’s not something I shy away from and that I will hear it and embrace it and try to tamp it down and talk to the person in a civil way if it’s possible.
Civil conversations achieve more than “uncivil conversations” as you yourself observed once the mayor left. “Uncivil conversation” is an oxymoron anyway. When people behave and are allowed to behave uncivilly things tend to devolve into name-calling and egotistical/righteous posturing and it can get much uglier fast. It is appropriate to set firm boundaries around an event you organized. It is in fact your responsibility to do so. It’s OK to expect adults to respect each other and share time and space so everyone can have their concerns addressed. Convesation and civility go hand in hand.
Adam. You do not need to lecture me about the power of civil conversations. I think my earlier comment was unclear so folks are misunderstanding it despite my explanations.
Again. To Be clear: I believe in folks being civil to each other in conversations and online comments. But I am OK with folks being uncivil when the moment requires it and I would never want to tamp down incivility for civility’s sake if I felt incivility was necessary and warranted.
OH sorry reading your comment more closely, you are talking about how I handled the event. I hear what you are saying about that and believe me, I have run scenarios in my head about all the way I could have managed the situation better. Please though, keep in mind that as it happened it was extremely perilous for me to try and tamp down their righteous anger. The optics could have very very quickly turned into “the BikePortland guy tone policing protesters” and given who many folks in some circles are just waiting to pounce on any mistake I make, this would have not ended up well for me.
I respect you for putting in more hard work over the years than most anybody in town over these issues. I’m a mere Monday quarterback in the comment thread. But there is plenty of righteous anger to be had with the state of our streets in Portland. Meet their righteous anger with the righteous anger of the innocent dead Portlanders and stand up for the issues and concerns people have using the streets in Portland. Remember the protesters are engaging in their own form of “tone policing” with their tactics. That want people to be put off balance so that they can dominate the forum. It’s a form of bullying and it doesn’t matter how righteous their cause, you have to stand up to bullies or just take your ball and leave, like the mayor did.
I totally hear you on this Adam. I realize I could have answered their anger with anger and yelling of my own about transportation-related stuff. But really when someone is talking about genocide and federal agents and facism, it is extremely difficult to create a counter to that that doesn’t risk being seen as a bad comparison. I’ve done this long enough to know that optics are everything and it would not have taken much for anything I said to turn out badly.
I would have loved to seen that, and I would have loved to see the mayor actually engage with these protestors, regardless of how little power he does or does not actually have.
I enjoyed reading this article and your take on the protestors that showed up. It makes me personally have a lot more respect for bp than I already had.
I bet you could have too, and I would love to see that happen!
So I can take my ire out on the mailman next?
What position of power does the mailman have exactly? There is a massive difference between being uncivil and a dick to a powerless worker, and confronting a person in uncivil ways who does have power.
You haven’t demonstrated that the mayor of a small western city in the US has any power over what happens in Gaza or anywhere else outside of Portland. Heck – Wilson has almost no power over what happens WITHIN Portland.
I love how everyone is being focused only on Gaza while ignoring the fact that the protestors who derailed this were the ICE protestors. Wilson absolutley can do things. He can pressure the council to ban the use of tear gas and “less leathal” weapons. He can pressure the council to ban police enforcement of all kinds from covering their faces. Power is not just about what you can pass, but also about how you can influence others to pass things that can make a difference.
But please, just keep stating he can do nothing about Gaza while ignoring the other half of the protestors, in an issue he can absolutley do something about, even of its small.
Do you think Wilson is more or less likely to do these thing after getting a taste of the mob?
Are these tactics you are defending actually effective, or are they more likely to convince the mayor that the police need to have tools to control things when groups of people get completely out of hand?
If he can personally do all this, the request/demand still needs to go to City Hall during City Council meetings.
He has the same power to end the conflict in Gaza that the mayor has.
I love how everyone is being focused only on Gaza while ignoring the fact that the protestors who derailed this were the ICE protestors. Wilson absolutley can do things. He can pressure the council to ban the use of tear gas and “less leathal” weapons. He can pressure the council to ban police enforcement of all kinds from covering their faces. Power is not just about what you can pass, but also about how you can influence others to pass things that can make a difference.
But please, just keep stating he can do nothing about Gaza while ignoring the other half of the protestors, in an issue he can absolutley do something about, even of its small.
Do you honestly believe the fash give even a mild shit about the city “banning” tear gas or less lethal weapons? They would just continue to use them.
Its not just small, its completely meaningless. The supremacy clause means the fash’s shock troops don’t have to follow local laws.
Of course the fash wont care about those laws. But if we pass them, we can then bring suit. What comes from that no one could say. Likely lose and the laws being deemed unconstitutional. And those were just some examples.
But the idea that a person in power has absolutley zero power to participate in the fight against the fash is just flat out wrong.
Here’s a legitimate question that comes up in my mind having observed so many nights during 2020 downtown–lets say tear gas is banned along with less lethal munitions:
If, as I personally witnessed the second night in 2020, protesters break into a building and set it on fire–what is to be done?
Like getting down to brass tacks, if you know that protesters do this regularly, should you prevent access to the windows–how do you do this without tear gas and less lethal munitions?
Or if they’ve already gone in, how do you get them out? Or do you just wait for the fire to start, the protesters to clear out and let the fire department handle it?
In India where I am now, guns are rare, and during riots many people die and buildings burn down. The police usually link up and press forward with batons, but it frequently accomplishes little.
Why do you need tear gas and less leathel weapons to stop riots? Why should our police forces be so militarized?
Riots happen for a reason. If we just keep ignoring why they happen, they will continue to happen. We can either fund police to stop them for just that night, or we can fund ways to permanently stop them.
And maybe we should care less about private property than we do justice.
I hear you Sky. Riots do happen for a reason–there are many-and as I’m sure you’ll agree well off people with agency rarely riot.
The problem is no one knows how best to fix this most fundamental characteristic of human society that some are born to rule and others to serve.
Specific radical systems to change this resulted in systems that were deeply oppressive like the USSR. I just talked to some Russians in Sumatra and told them young Americans were looking fondly on the USSR and they said, yes life was secure but you also lived your life with a straightjacket on–and you had to work–or you went to jail.
In our current context people feel already taxed to the hilt. Taxing rich people is easy to say but hard to do in practice, assets and money are liquid and can move offshore. Our current tax system relies on the middle class by its very structure.
And then our current government seems to have a whole host of competency issues– would you really trust Multnomah County with managing funds from a 60 percent tax regime? It would all go to their friends.
Finally the American history with free housing is riddled with literally bullets–, its not to say we shouldn,t try, the South Bronx has been improved recently with more mixed income housing.
And property Sky, property is built and improved by real people, with their hard earned money and time!
“Riots do happen for a reason–there are many-and as I’m sure you’ll agree well off people with agency rarely riot.”
Portland’s experience in 2020 showed this isn’t always true. You had a core group of young middle class people rioting basically for fun, though, to be fair, early on a lot of it seemed to be motivated by theft.
We can discuss the ICE protestors if you denounce the Gaza protestors for disrupting a bicycle event for no reason beyond making a spectacle of themselves. If you won’t do that, we can keep talking about them because they disrupted too.
Im not going to denounce people who, like everyone else, has no access to the Mayor. The Mayor should do a better jpb about meeting with people in the public and addressing their concerns, even if in the end he really cant do anything about those concerns.
Sure, I wish I had better access to the mayor as well. But I don’t. And one of my D3 reps never even responds to email.
Life’s hard.
Dont we all wish we had better access to those who supposedly represent us. Be mad at the people who refuse to engage with you and not those who also get ignored.
“Be mad at the people who refuse to engage with you and not those who also get ignored.”
And then use that anger to destroy JM’s event! I get it now!
Actually, as it turned out, the protesters did have access to the mayor. Or did you miss the article about it up above?
Yes, and if they had waited for the Q&A, they could have engaged him, rather than driven him off.
Everyone has access to city council meetings. They don’t check ID for building entry. Per the city website “City Council holds regular meetings at 9:30 a.m. on the first Wednesday and 6:00 p.m. on the third Wednesday of each month.” They also have committee meeting on the regular and those are open to the public. Here’s the upcoming calendar.
https://www.portland.gov/auditor/council-clerk/events
There’s a place for activists to make all these requests/demands. That place is City Hall during council meetings, it’s televised too, so anyone worldwide re-watching on YouTube can see the disruption. Way better than trashing a BP event.
Actually no, that’s incorrect. Even in Gaza, the lowly mayor of Portland has more influence than a postal worker.
Man: Oh look, this isn’t an argument.
Mr. Vibrating: Yes it is.
Man: No it isn’t. It’s just contradiction.
yeah this should definitely be used as blank check to act like clowns and ruin any and all public events you please regardless of how relevant they are to your cause. Why miss an opportunity to alienate people who’d otherwise support you? Lord knows whoever throws the loudest tantrum is most correct. I’m sure you just narrowly missed out on Wilson single-handedly stopping the genocide himself.
Do you actually support ending the genocide in Israel? Do you actually support fighting the rise of fascism in USA? If the actions of those who are trying to do something about them alienates you, then the problem lies with you, not them.
How truly uncomfortable are you with genocide? How truly uncomfortable are you with fascism? If your own sense of justice doesnt put you on the side of being against genocide and fascism, then you are not truly uncomfortable with these things happening. The protestors arent your problem. The protstors arent why you arent taking action. Its all on you.
When we toss around the word genocide, let’s keep in mind the 1200 Israelis murdered by Hamas, the thousands of rockets aimlessly fired into Israel in an attempt to kill Israelis, the vast network of tunnels build, the many peach proposals turned down by the Palestinians who don’t want peace, the money needed for food diverted to arms. There are two sides to this story and if you don’t want to keep this site focused on cycling in Portland, then the least you can do it be objective. Also, we have no idea how many have been killed. the numbers being tossed around out there are being supplied by Hamas, the people who have a reason to inflate the numbers.
I think many people are not old enough to recall the terrorism perpetrated by extremist Palestinian groups over the last several decades, as well.
Untangling who did what to whom first is a hopeless task. The focus has to be on the future, not the past, and how can these two peoples live side-by-side in peace.
No one is putting forward a solution because there probably isn’t a solution, and so what do we do?
I agree – there isn’t a solution for peaceful coexistence.
Who did what to whom where, it’s all here. Atrocities over millennia. Three minutes.
youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY&pp=0gcJCf8Ao7VqN5tD
Horrifyingly amazing! Until one has been over there and experienced the constant oppressive heat, dirt and bug life it’s hard to understand why that area is so bloody insane. That video does a great job of trying though, especially the end.
Or suffered through a PPS “education”. It’s startling to see the results play out in real time.
This is akin to pretending that the 3000 people murdered in NY excuse the hundreds of thousands illegally slaughtered by the USA. It also perpetuates the deeply fascist and imperialist calculus that a few ‘Murrican/Israeli lives are somehow worth the lives of hundreds or thousands of noncombatant children and young people in nations/societies we don’t care about.
Unfortunately nothing besides violence sends a message to these people. Peace proposal after peace proposal has been rejected. As soon as there is a truce, Hamas rockets will keep being fired into Israel. If you have a peace proposal, share it. The reality is that you have two groups here that have proved over hundreds of years, they can’t share the same land. Protesting at a Portland mayor’s forum is hardly the place where a Middle East peace proposal will be resolved.
Every time peace is proposed, Israel keeps the genocide going and then Hamas reacts by sending rockets.
4000+ years of no lasting peace in the region.
youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY&pp=0gcJCf8Ao7VqN5tD
Do you actually support the reckless car culture that has killed many dozens of innocent Portlanders over the last five years alone? Do you think our transportation infrastructure and transit systems are being properly designed and managed to allow the most vulnerable road users to safely travel about town on foot and bike? Are you comfortable with the mayor working behind the scenes to roll back even modest improvements to bike infrastructure in our city? Don’t you think your efforts to save lives could be more effective if they were focused on local problems rather than problems on the other side of the world? Are you a car-centric, performative progressive who just enjoys tearing other people down to feel holier than them? Your protests aren’t moving the needle and only serve as a distraction from the real death and violence occuring on Portland’s streets. It’s all on you.
“Do you actually support the reckless car culture that has killed many dozens of innocent Portlanders over the last five years alone?”
I do not own a car. I am one of the most anti-car people you could ever talk to. I want a car free city. I get around on bike and public transit and work as a bike courier. I ride more than most people do.
“Don’t you think your efforts to save lives could be more effective if they were focused on local problems rather than problems on the other side of the world?”
ICE is a local problem. The rise of fascism in USA is a local problem. Wild how so many people in the comments keep convienently forgetting there were people protesting ICE and not just Gaza. Immigrants are being thrown into concentration camps. How long until they become death camps? How long until immigrants are systematically killed off in our country?
“Your protests aren’t moving the needle and only serve as a distraction from the real death and violence occuring on Portland’s streets.”
My protests? I wasnt at the protests.
Yeah, Im totally a car brained person who just happens to want to see the death of cars.
You caught me. Guess since I don’t support these self-important children engaging in bad faith to disrupt a local transportation interview, I must be a pro-genocide fascist.
That is the language of extremism. There are many things that people do in the name of causes I believe in that I find reprehensible.
Thats not the language of extremism at all. History has shown over and over again that liberals side with the fascists.
If you think ICE putting people in concentration camps and illegally deporting them is bad, but then dont want to work to end it because some people are using tactics you dont like, then yeah, you are the problem.
Stop blaming people who are trying to do something for you doing nothing.
Do nothing? Who said that? I can (and do) denounce those who commit bad actions in support of a good cause while still working for that cause in different ways. There’s no conflict there, at all.
Why such binary, blinkered thinking?
Who said anything about civility? Did you respond to the wrong comment?
“but shouting at people trying to speak in public has never achieved anything, ever.”
You did.
But isn’t that how most people fix their bikes? They take care of the noisiest loudest issues first, then work their way to the more annoying but difficult noises next, rather than doing holistic and ongoing timely maintenance and cleaning, getting everything to work in harmony and replacing or repairing parts as needed?
Is this comment about chain waxing?
LOL it’s funny that you interpreted that in that way. I don’t hate the “temper tantrum” tactic because its uncivil, I hate it because it doesn’t work and it is employed by people who are too lazy to actually come up with a coherent strategy to achieve change.
Then what strategies do you think would actually work? You dont need to tell me. Go find the protestors and engage with them in dialog about it.
It seems like the people who are “passionate” about Palestine should be leading that charge. I’m focused on local things I can effect. Perhaps you should be protesting at events of *federally* elected officials who have at least some effect on US foreign policy? Maybe go and protest in fascist run districts? Just a thought.
For Gaza, building a broad coalition in support of your cause. Getting people behind you. Convincing enough “regular people” you’re right that elected officials pay attention.
Or, in the case of ICE and other probably illegal things Trump is doing, filing a lawsuit. That has been working, in many cases, slowly, but steadily. And where it hasn’t, getting people elected who won’t rubber stamp Trump’s policies or appointees will.
Angelita Morillo has lots of good ideas for ICE activists and she told everyone exactly what will be more effective at a recent city council meeting that was shut down by activists. After the meeting was shut down by anti-ICE activists, she met with the group and gave lots of effective strategies.
Angelia Morillo said the best way for Portland activists to actually help immigrants is to defer to local immigrant groups run by actual immigrants/POC, to fundraise to support those immigrant groups run by immigrants/POC, to ask those immigrant groups where their help might be needed, to attend deportation hearings to witness/document what’s happening inside the courtroom and to work through legal channels to achieve lasting change. Telling ICE staff they will be doxxed or they should quit their jobs (etc) does nothing to actually help immigrants. Funding/supporting the work that local immigrants rights groups are doing actually helps. Funny that.
Fair point that outrage has its place — history’s full of change sparked by people refusing to stay quiet. But let’s not pretend shouting down a mayor at a local cycling event is the same as toppling regimes. Civility isn’t the enemy — it’s how communities actually function. You want to challenge power? Do it strategically, not by derailing public forums meant for civic engagement.
Calling civility a “tool of the oppressor” oversimplifies things. In a functioning democracy, it’s also the tool of the people — it’s what gives space for hard conversations, accountability, and progress. Yelling over each other gets attention, sure, but it doesn’t always move the needle. Especially when the person you’re yelling at doesn’t control the issues you’re protesting.
There’s room to care about global atrocities and local safety at the same time — they’re not mutually exclusive. But if you shut down every chance for dialogue, don’t be surprised when no one’s left listening
It seems to me they were trying for civic engagement. There is nothing wrong with yelling when fascism is on the rise.
The mayor decided to ignore the protestors and then left. He could have and should have engaged with them.
The arrogance of the protestors thinking they are owed an answer by the Mayor on an international issue.
“you should engage respectfully”
*Engages respectfully*
“The arrogance of thinking you should be engaged with respectfully “
It’s a waste of time to engage with extremists. He was correct to leave.
My issue with yelling/incivility is not whether it’s right or wrong; it’s whether it’s effective. It can only be effective once a critical mass of voices have been built up by coalition-building, because that’s when those perpetrating injustices realize they’re in trouble. For them, the scary thing is not the shouting… it’s the united front combined with the shouting.
What I saw from the video was a small group going straight to the shouting, and expecting name-calling to somehow win over what could be allies (from bike riders all the way up to the mayor) without doing any of the necessary coalition-building. Right or wrong is not the point; it’s simply not effective. So why would I, as a transportation advocate who cares deeply, join in on a tactic that burns the very bridges I’ve spent years trying to build, but with no actual benefit for any of these causes?
I would argue that most people do care about the injustices happening in Gaza and with ICE, they just feel powerless to stop it. So they focus on issues closer to home, which they do feel they have control over. They’re not monsters, and yet their refusal to shout is being equated with the crimes of monsters. I would challenge you to ask yourself what kind of psychological effect that has on a human, and how we can instead win enough people over to make the anger effective.
Sure but there are more effective ways to engage with a community who broadly supports your views. There’s a lot of overlap with anti-ice, pro-gaza and the bike community.
Young people biking/triking to pick up food aid are being violently killed by bombs funded by your and my income. This is the overlap that is most relevant to this protest, ATMO.
Stop watching Al-Jazeera, it’s propaganda. If Hamas would distribute the food they have in their tunnels there would be more than enough. Or even better, Hamas could recognize Isreal’s right to exist, surrender and the violence would end. It’s not hard.
Al-Jazeera may not be perfect (or even good), but in this century they have been one of the best conduits of information from the Arab world to ‘the West’. The real crimes against the truth lie with Israel. The deliberate campaign to target journalists and anybody else telling the truth about Gaza is a huge crime and would receive more focus if it was not overshadowed by the larger genocide,
Hi Micah,
I’ve been enjoying and agreeing with your comments on these last several posts, but I’m going to have to disagree mildly with you on this one.
As part of my work I watched a lot of Al-Jazeera filmed and produced first person POV propaganda videos of our soldiers being shot and blown up by the enemy with accompanying recruiting and donation information to trust them. That trust was further eroded when A J journalists were embedded with the first wave of the enemy that attacked Israel 7OCT. I don’t believe that Israel is targeting A J journalists simply because they are journalists, but I have no proof to back that up, just that previous experience.
A J has a narrative to craft and an agenda to sell and I do not trust that anything they say or the numbers they put out are true.
Please note that I can’t think of a truthful news organization to recommend for you as it seems we live in the age of “Yellow Journalism” if we ever left it.
I realize that my statements can only be taken for what they are and I can offer you no proof for or against the truthfulness of Al -Jazeera. I just ask that you be skeptical of people who claim to be journalists and of the information they are putting out. It is a bit of a discouraging time to see so much information available to so many and still not be sure if any of it is actually what is or was happening.
Hi Jake9!
I appreciate that there is a lot of nuance and subjectivity here, and I certainly accede that AJ has a definite viewpoint, is sympathetic to intifada broadly, and would never publish anything that would draw the disapproval of their Qatari sponsors. But it’s been well reported by (relatively trustworthy American outlets like NYT and Wapo that are well within the mainstream) that Israel has intentionally assassinated AJ journalists and covered it up. As with many Israeli actions in recent decades, I find this behavior completely unacceptable from an American ally. And don’t get me started on the Pegasus software.
Yeah, Pegasus is creepy AF!! No denying or defending it.
Years ago, like before COVID-19, news broke about Israel having waged a spy campaign against US college students for years. They did so to influence public perception on the whole Israel/Palestine issue. Let’s not forget about that.
C’mon… I know you know it’s not that simple. Or at least you should.
Fair enough, it’s not quite that simple. Maybe for the immediate fighting, but the long term solution is ethereal in the extreme.
I stand by avoiding Al-Jazeera though, simply can’t be trusted. Sighhhh, but what news source can these days?
You could reference the various bias ratings of independent news monitoring services: All Sides, Ad Fontes Media, Media Bias Fact Check. Ground news also uses an average of the three. This includes bias trend, factuality and Ownership categories.
Keep in mind that Al Jazeera is rated as leaning left, high factuality, media conglomerate, meaning it’s a relatively good information source overall. Fox news is solid right, mixed factuality, media conglomerate, meaning a relatively poor information source. This doesn’t mean that any one article is necessarily unbiased, but rather looked at in the aggregate.
Thank you for the suggestion as to finding some legit news somewhere.
As far as Al Jazeera though, it will take a lot to convince me they’ve changed after watching their product…
As part of my work I watched a lot of Al-Jazeera filmed and produced first person POV propaganda videos of our soldiers being shot and blown up by the enemy with accompanying recruiting and donation information to trust them. That trust was further eroded when A J journalists were embedded with the first wave of the enemy that attacked Israel 7OCT.
Then there was the Al-Ahli hospital video doctoring from A J and supportive lying from the Health Ministry…
Here is the as it’s happening…
https://apnews.com/article/hospital-airstrike-gaza-rocket-74ae3e38d9f771abd23d6d49c814b980
and then what actually happened…
https://apnews.com/article/hospital-airstrike-gaza-rocket-74ae3e38d9f771abd23d6d49c814b980
So that incident reinforced my previous first hand accounts with Al-Jazeera.
I’m sure lots of legit news organizations would cover Gaza if Israel would let them.
Again, you’re not wrong.
The comment you’re replying to is about people that live here in Portland, i.e. the ones at the event – the ones this protest disruption was aimed at, apparently? That’s the kind of overlap being mentioned, but I think you already know that. I myself have attended protests at the ICE building.
I think it would be in extremely poor taste to go disrupt an event they were trying to hold by going and yelling over them about local bike issues.
Our furtive corporatist mayor was out of hiding so this was good organizing … even if it left a bad taste in your mouth
What ways do you suggest they go about it? What ways do you think are strategic? If you have answers to these question, seek out these protestors and start a dialog with them. Talk to them.about what you think will work.
Wait for the Q and A like everybody there told them to do. Don’t shit where you eat.
I mean, I’ve been hearing that exact line from left-wing activists for the last decade or more, and yet all you seem to have to show for it is, as you say, mass deportations and the rise of fascism in the nation while there is an ongoing genocide happening.
The left wing activists have almost zero power in this country. USA has worked tirelessly to destroy all forms of leftism in USA. They succeded in that decades ago. Its now just finally being rebuilt.
The people to blame for the rise of fascism are those who fell for the propaganda that leftism is bad and evil. Its on those who kept voting for neo-liberal candidates that kept cutting austerity and moving further and further right. It is not the fault of the young activists who were not alive when all those things were happening. The last chance this country had was making Bernie president, but them democrats fought harder against him than they did against Trump.
Because Leftists never go too far…
In Oakland, before the election, when it looked like Bernie could win, Direct Action Everywhere hijacked a Bernie Sanders event by “disrupting.” Bernie was trying to win the nomination. Activists stampeded over a near-stage section of people in wheelchairs to get on stage and protest animal agriculture and promote animal liberation (which I fully agree with as someone who has abstained from animal products for DECADES now) but Bernie DID NOT deserve that level of disrespect/chaos. The folks in wheelchairs didn’t deserve it either, some were hurt. Those activists just fkd it up, made zero difference to Bernie’s support of the dairy industry in Vermont and to the animal-torture-murder industry in the USA and just pissed off Bernie off and his staffers. The method was fkd up even though I agree 100% with the message. The message may be legit but if the delivery/messenger is fkd up, zero accomplished. The activists would have been far better off leafletting the 5000+ people in line while handing out water and vegan cookies. AND the shit show of disruption went viral for a long while and impacted the legitimacy of ALL animal rights activists. That’s why so many vegans and animal rights activists avoid DxE and refuse to work with them. Not too long after that, they disrupted a Giants/Dodgers baseball game in SF to demand the end of hot dog sales. Useless action, hot dogs are still sold, sadly. They just stir up shit in places where and when it doesn’t make sense. The message vs. the delivery of the message is the key point here. And of course, the world would have been a far kinder and safer place had Bernie had a chance.
Conversely, all you have to show for whatever you’ve been doing is mass deportations and the rise of fascism in the nation while there is an ongoing genocide happening.
I’m curious…are you part of the “oppressor class”? White & educated?
Yes, Im white and a part of the “oppressor class.” My education ended when I graduated high school. Im also trans fem, which also puts me in one of the oppressed classes.
Is there any point to this question? Can white people not work past their white supremacy and work to fix wrongs? It would be awfuly weird if for some reason only BIPOC could be the ones to fight for liberation.
Just ridiculous that the hard work to bring the mayor in for a Q and A about important local issues that can be acted on to save and change lives was destroyed by a screaming mob of privileged children throwing multiple tantrums about their own pet interests. I am a little shocked at the utter disrespect they showed you by drowning out your efforts. I thought there would be some kind of mutual respect at the real world results you have brought about in Portland that benefits everyone that would keep the childishness restrained.
Obviously I was wrong.
Those groups who presumed to steal your time and by proxy our time with the mayor are out of control and not in anyway positive. They have demonstrated again why they are the actual threats to democracy in Portland. Actions speak louder than words and boy were those some outlandishly loud actions expressing utter contempt towards you and again by proxy us.
For the person who complained that their bullhorn was damaged, maybe don’t permanently damage other people’s hearing by using it in their face? What a ridiculous thing to complain about! Oh no, someone broke my dangerous weapon that I was using on other people.
So sad that this happened.
Fascism is rising in the country, but protestors engaging in a form of democracy is the threat to democracy? Democracy does not stop after you cast your votes. It is an ongoing process and people need to force elected representatives to act.
Shouting people down and blocking discussion isn’t democracy. It is what fascists do.
No, fascists do genocide and put people in concentraion camps. Fascists work to make the profits of big buisness soar while destroying worker protections and gains.
What these protestors did is a part of democracy. Just because you are uncomfortable with this aspect of democracy does not mean its not democracy.
And they didnt block discussion. Mayor Wilson did by ignoring them and then leaving. Discussions will not always go the way you want them to, and will not always be on the topic you want them to be on.
Wilson said he would take their questions in the Q&A.
I’m sure the people who were put in Gulags might disagree with you. And why do you think the Mayor owes the protestors an answer? He’s a local politician.
A Gulag was just a work prison. The nation we live in has far more people in the American Gulags than the USSR ever did. The 13th amendement makes it loud and clear that USA loves to use prison labor. The American Gulags started before the ones in the USSR and have persisted even after the USSR fell.
You really need to work to get past your anti-communist propaganda.
“A Gulag was just a work prison.“
No it wasn’t. Citation please.
Yes, they were “just” a work prison for political opponents of the Soviet regime (rather than criminal acts against fellow citizens), where a huge number of inmates died, often by being starved and worked to death, usually after a show trial with no hope of appeal.
I’ll make no apologies for the American prison system, but the horrors of the gulags were not just anti-communist propaganda. It’s clear you haven’t read any of the first-hand accounts of what they were like.
I will say this: you have an interesting and eclectic collection of horrific political violence you’ll champion, with no apparent limit to how many people it destroys.
“I will say this: you have an interesting and eclectic collection of horrific political violence you’ll champion, with no apparent limit to how many people it destroys.“
Well of course, Sky is a communist espousing communist ideals and it’s kind of nice to see someone espouse actual communist philosophy without trying to sugarcoat it.
You need to get past being an apologist for concepts that killed millions of people.
They didn’t want a discussion. They wanted to grandstand and draw headlines, because they’ve been protesting in public for a long time, and very few people care to pay attention.
Protesting what? The diverters? Active transportation?
Yes. They trampled on the rights of everyone there. They shut down communication of an important issue that we all wanted to hear about.
They did not trample on your rights. This even happened in a public plaza. They had every right to do what they did and them doing so didnt take your rights away.
You really should blame Wilson for refusing to engage with them and then leaving.
He didn’t refuse. If they really wanted to hear from him, why didn’t they use the Q&A, as he offered?
I guess the Proud Boys have the same rights…
Yes, the Proud Boys also have the right to come to Public Plazas and to protest at meetings with the Mayor. Thats how free speech works.
You seem to be a deeply unserious person.
Yeah I’ve been seeing this dynamic since I first started attending rallies and protests in the 70s (gulp!). Progressives can be so passionate that they talk past each other, have no sense of proportion, don’t make room for others’ needs and agenda, alienate those around them … so accomplish little. (And I count myself as a progressive.) “Conservatives” align behind leaders and advance their agenda. I’m NOT advocating for fascist tactics among progressives, but wish people could lower the volume and make room for each other’s issues.
The Portland far left makes those of us on the left look longingly and enviously at the center right 🙁
That’s basing your ideology on what others do rather than your own determinations about how things ought to be. That’s a large part of why our nation has shifted so far right. Please, stop thinking like that or promoting such thinking.
Well put. These narcissists are detrimental to the Portland biking community because at the core of it, this attention-seeking behavior is purely to puff up their own fragile egos. They’ve alienated many who now avoid them. It’s the same few people every time and if you’ve ever been on a ride with them, “privileged children throwing multiple tantrums about their pet interests’ is a good way to sum up the low vibe they give off. It’s really unpleasant to be around, as evidenced in this video. I’m glad I wasn’t there.
Wow, Jonathan, your magnanimity truly impresses and inspires me. I think you handled a difficult situation yesterday with much more grace than I would have been able to muster.
Amen. Last night’s disruptors were passionate about and persuasive in their calls for solidarity (with Palestinians and immigrants). It’s imperative that the political left learn how to work together despite irreconcilable differences. Our coalition will necessarily include transphobic, xenophobic, nativist, zionist, anti-choice, etc. viewpoints, and this will complicate our politics. We get that Gazans are starving. We cannot stop the genocide when we are out of power. Telling us that we are ‘White supremacist pieces of shit’ is not going to help the Palestinian cause whether or not it’s an apt description. Destroying the establishment/corporate democrats does not further progressive aims — it clears the field for fascism.
Jonathan showed us the right way to respond. Thanks!
Where was the persuasive part? They crashed an event, at least the protesters had some spine and didn’t just cave like John.
The Gaza folks had some solid rhetorical engagement before and after the shout down. I found their speeches and forthright engagement to be compelling. YMMV. There’s no doubt that allowing Israel to commit genocide with weapons produced in this country and purchased with aid from the US is a moral stain on this country. It’s legit to ask what our obligations are as humans in this situation are. What’s not helpful is to disrupt constructive dialogue among the broader political left at a time when ethnonationalists are taking over our country.
You forgot AntiSemites in your coalition list.
Fair enough. I did not include Islamophobes, either, although both antisemitism and islamophobia are real problems for us.
indeed
Reality check. People yelling at each other about causes they feel passionate about might seem like a big deal because it has a lot of big emotions. Hugging it out and “building community” might also feel like an accomplishment.
But…. it isn’t. Nobody cares except a few people who are directly involved and have their egos on the line. The isn’t progress for anyone.
This is small groups with big feelings sticking knives in each other hoping to grow their platforms because they lack the ability or vision to accomplish it without lashing out at their freinds. However, the damage is done. No one accomplishes anything. The genuine hard work that went into a tiny bit of movement for one of the many important causes society faces has the blood sucked out of it by opportunists.
Activists, advocates, protestors, whatever, should not weaken others with aligned causes to make their own cause stronger. The only people who benefit from this performative BS are dominant powers that are supposedly being fought against.
Mayor used you! It’s up to him to know how to talk to protesters; not you! His political king skills are low and he hid behind your event when he couldn’t manage.
Jonathan, I’m sorry the protest disruption shut down your Q&A with Mayor Wilson. I hope you’ll have a chance for another Q&A with him soon. A silver lining for me last night was having some good conversations with other attendees after the disruption, and I also caught up on photos during my walks to and from the event. My apologies for dropping my glass of cider, and thanks to Gorges for picking up the broken pieces.
Portland. The city that yells. We often look around and wonder why every little actually gets done. Here’s a great example.
I share your disappointment. I was looking forward to hearing a conversation between our diverse community and the Mayor. I appreciate the Mayor’s call that he would happily answer ANY questions that may arise in the Q&A. While I was in attendance for a bike safety and transportation related conversation, I am genuinely interested to hear the Mayor’s response on ICE, Gaza and other issues. Unfortunately, the opportunity for that dialogue was completely shut-down by a bullhorn.
Nothing has pushed me towards the center like the progressive left in this town. They hijacked a conversation with national topics that a mayor has zero purview into, or in the case of ICE expecting a mid-sized city to overpower the federal frigging government, and it’s batshit crazy.
Jonathan, you should know better than to try to negotiate with terrorists. These people will hold any conversation hostage.
Youre in the center because you dont care. Blaming other people for trying to do something is a you problem, not a them problem. If their actions make you not care about atrocities, its because you didnt care to begin with.
You don’t care about your fellow Portlanders and their concerns. You have articulated in these comments how you only care about what you think is most important and everyone else can pound sand until your priorities are addressed first no matter how pointless and performative your demands.
Every extremist feels that way.
I guess we can’t work with the mayor to improve anything in this city until the war in Gaza ends.
Were the protestors only going on about Gaza? Was there not something else that protestors were bringing up?
We can’t work with the mayor until he pushes to close the ICE facility in Portland, and then they refuse to close it and deploy the national guard to the city to protect it. Or they close it and the detainees get sent to Tacoma instead.
Amen. I always assumed – until I moved to Portland – that the politics of the left were just nicer. If you believe in the sanctity of humankind, then you’d behave more kindly to your fellow humans. But hard-left lefties in Portland are some of the meanest people I’ve ever met. I can totally see why people vote for Trump as antidote, even though I’d never do so myself.
No way! That can’t be true! You mean the far left (like the far right) are Fascists and use similar tactics? No way!
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Fascism is a far-right, ultranationalist political ideology characterized by a dictatorial leader, a centralized autocracy, militarism, the forcible suppression of opposition, and a belief in a natural social hierarchy, aiming for a complete reshaping of society through violence to return to a perceived ideal past. It emerged in 20th-century Europe, with Benito Mussolini’s Italy and Adolf Hitler’s Germany as prominent examples.
Key Characteristics
Authoritarianism and Totalitarianism: Fascism involves a highly centralized, dictatorial government with extreme power concentrated in a single leader or a small ruling group.
Ultranationlism: A fervent and often aggressive nationalism that prioritizes the nation above all else.
Militarism: A strong emphasis on military power, discipline, and often the belief in violence as a means of achieving goals.
Suppression of Opposition: Fascist regimes violently suppress all political opposition, dissent, and liberal or socialist ideals.
Social Hierarchy and Elitism: Fascism promotes the idea of natural social, racial, or national hierarchies, rejecting egalitarianism.
Rejection of Enlightenment Ideals: It opposes democracy, liberalism, socialism, and communism, which are seen as decadent and destructive to national strength.
The farthest left you can get is anarchism.
Please for the love of god go learn about these ideologies before you rail against them.
And nothing is going to make them happy, anyways. These folks are chronically aggrieved.
They are addicted to and obsessive about being perpetually angry. Whatever they’re ‘protesting’ is just the latest hook for that anger to hang on.
Bike enthusiasts attacking peaceful protestors is such a bad look. To me this is the real outrage.
It doesn’t say who started the shoving. Of course the people who started the conflict are going to cry wolf when shit hits the fan.
I’ll say it because it’s clearly visible in the YouTube video that protestors are yelling and bike happy hour folx got up and started getting physical.
FAFO.
Crikey, came for a proper chinwag about bike lanes, and it turned into a geopolitical free-for-all. We had the mayor right there — a golden chance to grill him on real local issues: MUPs overrun with encampments, cars and even caravans on bike paths, and bike lanes falling apart from sheer neglect. But nah, the mic got hijacked by folks shouting about Palestine and ICE — the latter being a federal agency the mayor’s got no real say over.
Look, the situation in Palestine is tragic and absolutely deserves attention — but it’s also over 7,000 miles from Portland, and our city mayor isn’t the one steering U.S. foreign policy. Hijacking a local civic event meant to address urgent transport and safety issues helped no one — least of all the folks riding bikes through this city every day just trying to stay safe.
Props to Maus for keeping his cool, but calling that a community win is like saying a footy match went well because the crowd had a good biff in the stands. Some of us just wanted to hear about bikes and transportation issues in Portland, not world politics
Ice in our community is not world politics; it’s proud boys and other hate groups hijacking our neighbors based on the color of their skin, irregardless of their legal status. A discussion about bike lanes is obviously important because it has to do with the safety of Portlanders. Ice in our community is also creating a safety issue at an Emergency level. Our community is under attack. There are decisions that city officials can make to divest from supporting the systems and companies that support Israel’s genocide against Gaza AND the systems and companies that support local, federally sanctioned, bounty hunting, kidnappings in our PDX community.
Suz, come off it — ICE is federal. Full stop. The mayor doesn’t run it, can’t defund it, and isn’t writing immigration policy. Yelling at him about it in a local transport meeting is like screaming at your barista about foreign policy — wrong person, wrong place.
And this constant panic about Proud Boys in Portland? There’s what, maybe one guy with a bad haircut and a flag? It’s not exactly a marching army. Acting like they’re around every corner just distracts from the real safety issues people deal with every day — like getting sideswiped in a bike lane full of tents, shopping trolleys, or parked SUVs.
Illegal immigration is illegal — whether you like the laws or not. If you want to change federal enforcement, take it to D.C. But dragging that fight into a room where we had the mayor — someone who can actually fix busted footpaths and dangerous intersections — just wasted a golden opportunity.
You want to help the community? Start by letting the conversation stay local, where we might actually get something done.
Truth. 100%. And those requests/demands need to go to City Council meetings- not bike infrastructure meetings.
A lot of people expressing some Very Serious concern about the specific physical distance between Gaza and Portland as if we lived in 900 AD and that mattered at all. Our money and weapons are shipped all over the world every day. “7000 miles away” means nothing.
My biggest take away was how it felt to be yelled at and not heard. Even though I am an ally of immigrants and a supporter for freedom for Gaza, being degraded and continually assaulted with loud noise has done nothing but make me feel disengaged from the local activists who causes they are supporting and I assume want those of us there to support as well. I think this is a good lesson for us as bike activists. I was upset that something Jonathan had worked very hard to achieve was violently disrupted. (Yes, loud amplified sound is a type of assault). I had all kinds of room for conservation, open to being personally asked to participate or be of support. There is a time and a place that people can be aware of and I hope that we can understand how it feels when we might display similar behavior. There was real anger in our bike activist crowd last evening toward the amplified yelling, and though it was completely inappropriate for the physical intervention, in the moment there was part of me that really wanted the megaphone to wait their turn! I wanted Jonathan to have the opportunity to hold our Mayor to account for the diverter issue, and now that powerful moment has been lost. When we yell and yell and no one is listening do we make a difference? Lets remember that when it is our voice behind the megaphone.
There’s not enough hours in the day to fight all the various injustices in the world by one person. Stick with bikes, that’s what you do best. Let him get his own platform and fight the fights he wants to do. Obviously, respective public discourse on the topic, Wilson and transportation, was lost on them.
Their tactics, silence anyone else’s opinion, reminds me of the fascist group, Antifa and what they did in downtown Portland years ago.
The theme of so many comments here seems to be along the lines of “this wasn’t the time or place”… But then honestly when is the time and where is the place? Keith Wilson refuses to engage with his constituents over the issue of Portland maintaining its sister city status with Ashkelon.
For context, Ashkelon was historically populated by Arab Muslims and Christians before it was violently ethnically cleansed in 1948. It’s just 8 miles north of the Gaza Strip, where a genocide has been ongoing for nearly two full years, where the state of Israel, with our full aid and abetting, has been murdering and maiming hundreds of thousands of innocent people of all ages. Diplomatic relationships like sister cities serve to legitimize the illegal occupation of Palestine by the ethnofascist state of Israel, and personally I’m furious that the supposedly progressive city where I live and vote and pay taxes takes part in that.
Not only does Keith Wilson refuse engagement on this issue, but as we saw yesterday, he won’t even appear in public where there’s a chance he’d be photographed near a Palestinian flag.
So again, when is the time? Where is the place? I have to respect protestors who look for ways to try and create that time and place when/where there isn’t any.
At the end of the day, why do we care about bike lanes? It’s about safety and equity, right? When you chide protestors of genocide for choosing the wrong time/place, you make it seem like what you believe is that only *your* safety is important, and that’s not really all that equitable, is it?
It goes without saying that photos of KW in front of a Palestinian flag will make their way to Fox News and other right wing channels. Why would he (and you) want to give them that propaganda opportunity?
I think reconsidering our sister city relationship with Ashkelon is more than appropriate but the tactics from last night don’t really make me want to work with those protesters towards that goal. I mean, if I’m a fascist white supremacist, why would I do that?
You do not have to work with those protestors. If you think ending the sister city relationship is a good idea, you can work on it by yourself, or find other people to work on it. You can try other tactics that you think will work better. Im a lover of a diversity of tactics. We can agree on a goal without agreeing on the tactics.
There are far more options than either working woth protestors whose tactics you disagree with and being a fascist goon.
a group of people showing up to make this demand at the beginning of a City Hall meeting could be quite effective.
Oh no, then the Republicans on the other side of the country won’t vote for Keith Wilson!
The fact that he doesn’t want to be seen as having a suggestion of support for the Palestinian cause says something about his support for said cause.
What a whacky justification.
“I can’t think of an effective way to get my message across, so I will attack other sympathetic groups until they give me advice that I like on how to be a real activist.”
Don’t put quotes around words you’re trying to put in my mouth. If you know so much better about how to be a real activist why don’t you share with us all what would be an effective way to get the message across?
Not trying to put words in your mouth. Just letting you know that when you and others are saying:
“Why don’t you share with us all what would be an effective way to get the message across?”
It sounds to me like:
“This is hard, I don’t know what to do, so I will do something that doesn’t work and is probably the wrong thing to do until other people tell me what to do.”
It comes across as childish. Like you are more focused on the feeling of doing something rather than accomplishing anything.
I understand that it is not easy, but a good ground rule would be not to sabotage other causes that, as you point out, are aligned around safety and equity.
*You’re* the one who made the statement that protesting whenever and wherever Keith Wilson and other politicians appear in public is not effective — I don’t agree with you but I asked you based on *your* own premise what *you* think would be more effective. It wasn’t a rhetorical question. If you’re only going to engage with misrepresentations of what I’ve actually said you’re just having a very strange argument with yourself.
You call demanding accountability from elected representatives who actively refuse engagement sabotage… I call it a prioritization of issues and intersectional interests.
Anything would have been more effective. If abandoning our sister city relationship with Ashkelon were my cause, I would organize a campaign of people contacting the mayor’s office to advocate that. Contact your city council members. Get a broad swath of Portlanders to do the same. Build a movement.
Exactly right. They could have printed up some QR codes that linked to KW’s contact page and then circulated around asking people to scan and request the mayor to reconsider that sister city relationship. They would have gotten dozens of people to do that, including me – maybe the start of a coalition. Instead they just wanted to throw a tantrum and call their allies white supremacists. As a POC, that particular accusation lands pretty weird.
FWIW, they did almost exactly what you suggest. (I don’t belive the QR code goes to KW’s contacts but rather a petition — I haven’t followed the encoded URL.) They also had good, reasonable pitches supporting their push to abolish the sister city relationship. There was actually a lot of good dialogue to be had.
From a security standpoint, anyone would be nuts to scan QR codes just randomly given out without any assurance it was safe.
Just saying . . .
It would have been more effective to put questions to Wilson in the Q&A.
I didn’t hear any of protesters bring up the genocide of the Uyghurs in China nor did I hear mention of the genocide in Ukraine by Russia. We have Sister cities in China and Russia. Why don’t protesters care about those genocides with the same level of passion?
There are like ten people who think about sister cities each year. Did you even know we had a sister city in Isreal before you saw it on TikTok? The Sister Cities program doesn’t “legitimize” anything because no cares or thinks about it.
City council meetings would be a great place to start! You could always travel to Washington DC to protest because you know, thats where the President is. The idea that people can’t care about local issues while there is geopolitical turmoil is nonsense. There will always be some turmoil somewhere because humans are violent and selfish in our cores.
It’s because there aren’t any Jews in China and few in Russia. Besides the ones you’ve mentioned, there are the Rohinga in Myanmar, the Nuer in South Sudan, Christians (newsflash, not all Christians are Anglo) and Yazidis in Iraq and Syria and the Darfuris in Sudan. Again…… no Jews.
Actions speak louder than words and it’s getting tiresome seeing antisemitism excused by claiming to be “anti-zionist”. Again, actions count and when you are the ones spouting divesture from the Jews and no one else than what are we to think?
The United States doesn’t give billions of dollars in no strings attached military aid to those countries. This is garbage, bad faith arguments.
I remember when the protests against Israel were starting to be called out for their antisemitism and that is when the decision to start mentioning US aid came about. It was a reaction to the pushback, not an initial reason for outrage.
Also, talk to me about why the Divest movement is focused on Israel and none of those other places as Divest is kinda old.
This is simply not true. Since the genocide began, protesters have been talking about the US aid to Israel.
Okay, when do you think the genocide started?
I haven’t been around forever, but I’ve heard activists make impassioned pleas to cut off us military aid to Israel since the 1990s. It’s not like activists just discovered that Israel has been using American munitions to kill Palestinians last week.
There are few Sudanese or Myanmar based corporations to boycott or divest from. If you can identify any listed on American stock exchanges or in the portfolios of major American institutions, I’ll eat my hat.
Many of the people who have been fighting the longest and most passionately for Palestinian statehood and Palestinian human rights in the United States going back decades are Jewish. But tell me again how the movement is fundamentally antisemitic.
Short answer– Critics believe that meeting the movement’s demands would necessitate that Israel no longer exist as a Jewish state. The state of Israel, along with many Jewish institutions in the Diaspora, therefore condemn BDS as antisemitic.
Longer answer- Israel is defending it’s people from being annihilated (to cause to cease to exist: to do away with entirely so that nothing remains). They have been wiped out from all the other Arab countries.
(Jewish presence in what are now Arab lands long predates Islam and the Arab conquest of the Middle East and North Africa, and goes back to Biblical times. In 1945, there were approximately 866,000 Jews living in communities throughout the Arab world. Today, there are fewer than 10,000. In many Arab states, once thriving Jewish communities have all but disappeared. According to official statistics, 856,000 Jews, persecuted and under duress, were exiled from their homes in Arab countries between 1948 and the early 1970s, leaving behind substantial property and other assets.)
They have been invaded by armies 4 times, not counting the constant terror attacks or the intifadas. Their athletes murdered at the Olympics.
During all this “the movement” has been against Israel and for their attackers. They supported a people who refused to acknowledge Israel’s existence, called for it’s destruction, persecuted women with inhuman ferocity and still they were favored by “the movement”.
No other country is singled out for this kind of behavior. When the US attacked Iraq, we killed roughly 4% of it’s population and no one called it genocide or divested. When Israel kills less than that (we have literally no idea how many have died. Hamas and Al-Jazeera lies and you just have to look at the Al-Ahli hospital rocket attack to see that) in the current war, well that’s a different story.
Also, Jews are the indigenous people to that area. The Arabs are the colonists.
Al-Ahli hospital was hit by a rocket that Hamas stated was fired by Israel, hit the hospital and killed 500. In the morning, visuals showed that was a lie. It turned out that it was a Gazan rocket and it hit the parking lot, sadly killing and injuring around 10. In this minor incident we see Hamas’ eagerness to inflate casualties, Al-Jazeera’s eagerness to manipulate and splice footage and the international news lapped the lies up and still do.
Perhaps ‘genocide’ was not a much used term, but many, many people called for war crimes charges for W, (papa) Cheney, Condi Rice, Wolfowitz, et al. “Crimes against humanity.” Boycotts, also, were called for.
Wow, people lied about antisemitism, tried to smear protesters with it, and they came back with the obvious, self evident refutation of the lie? Color me shocked.
The dilution of the term antisemitism by Israel and other Zionists had done a lot of harm.
“and no one else” Is the U.S. omvested on the perpetrators in your examples?
I think you’re presuming too much here. The two year campaign against Palestine has origins in the Israel/Palestine issue that’s existed for many decades, whereas every other conflict you and cc_driver mentioned are younger and have received far less coverage in general, so for people to overlook them, or at least not focus their efforts on them, is natural enough that somebody can be against Zionism without being against all Jews.
I mean, people opposed to Isreals genocide aren’t antisemites. Israel could stop its genocide tomorrow and the protesters would rejoice.
My point was that there are plenty of atrocities in the world and you could point to any of them and say they are more important than bike lanes, and they are. If I could trade every piece of bike infra in Portland to stop the genocide of the Palestinians, I would, but that’s not a thing. Anti-genocide protesters yelling at the mayor are protesting against a government that has no ability to stop the Israeli genocide in Gaza.
and Hamas and the Gazans could release the hostages, prosecute those that sexually assaulted and paraded all those Israeli and foreign women down the streets, recognize Israel’s right to exist as other Arab nations have and step aside or surrender so others can lead the Gazans. But you and the other genocide believers can only focus on Israel.
Look what the Allies had to do in Berlin to root out the German defenders and then had to de-nationalist socialist workers party the city and country. The same has to be done to de-Hamas Gaza.
That sure sounds simple!
What’s hard about releasing the hostages, living or dead?
It is simple.
The other stuff is indeed hard as it goes against the nature of Hamas which is why the war continues.
Either side could unilaterally surrender and end the war today. It’s just not generally how these things work out. As long as they think they can improve their situation, both parties will continue to fight on.
BTW, Hamas has offered to release a number of the hostages in exchange for a 60 day ceasefire, an offer which Israel has so far rejected.
you’re brave!!!
Great point about the other sister cities. The point of that program is cultural communication and exchange, and the whole point is that we should be keeping those ties even when (maybe especially when) we disagree about what our countries are doing. Sister cities are about regular people getting exposed to regular people from other cultures. It’s not like every Israeli supports what the State of Israel is doing, just like not every American supports what our government is doing. The protestors are engaging in a total “othering” here, acting like everyone in Israel is part of a monolith.
https://www.genocidewatch.com/countries-at-risk has a whole list of countries/peoples at risk for genocide so huge props for bringing up Uyghurs and Ukrainians. Let’s not forget the Congo. Oregonians who are anti-colonization and anti-genocide could locally assist with First Nations Land Back movements here in Oregon. Yanno, since it’s local. Just saying.
This event could have been the time and the place if the protestors had read the room and recognized they are on equal footing with everyone else there in attendance. But they just felt more important than everyone else there and mishandled their opportunity to pose their questions to the mayor’s face. It’s on them. And what’s wrong for allowing everyone there a chance to share their concerns and ask their questions of the mayor, whatever they may have been? When do they get their time and place, or should everyone have shown up with bullhorns and demanded their signs be placed behind the mayor to take advantage of the visuals?
Strange there’s 12 elected officials that can put forth a resolution to take away the Sister City status. When you and your fellow protesters reached out to them what were their responses?
Saying we shouldn’t have a sister city in Israel, a purely symbolic connection that does represent financial or political support, and is supposed to be there to foster occasional cultural dialogue, because the state of Israel is engaging in genocide, is so bizarre. The whole point is to talk to one another, and if you disagree with each other, that’s all the more important. It’s about communication, and having that kind of tie doesn’t “legitimize” anything. You’re using the same argument Israel uses to keep Palestine out of the UN, or China keeping Taiwan out of the UN. They’re afraid that would “legitimize” them. But it’s better to have everyone communicating, especially when they disagree with each other.
“But then honestly when is the time and where is the place?” City Hall meetings. BTW, more federal tax dollars (since you probably have IRS deductions and/or pay the IRS) contribute way more to the war machine than local taxes. Just saying.
I watched the stream as soon as you posted it. Great write-up of what occurred, Jonathon. I’m glad to see there were productive conversations following the event. Hopefully, another interview can take place at Bike Happy Hour.
The lesson here is that if you want your issue to be front and center, come with bullhorns and enough people to commandeer the event so that no one else feels comfortable bringing up any other issues. Better yet make sure everyone knows that your issue is the most important and to say otherwise makes you a white supremacist. So many people have died on Portland’s streets in completely preventable ways and public transit and PBOT funding are all in dire straits, but first let’s all pretend like ending Portland’s sister city relationship with Ashkelon is more important to everyday Portlanders. Let’s pretend like the mayor has any real capacity to stop ICE from operating in Portland. Only then can we talk and question the mayor about things he can meaningfully act upon.
While I don’t agree with what the protesters did, I feel like I understand why they did it. With the never-ending violence in Gaza, and the almost pornographic cruelty of ICE constantly in our eyes and ears, a lot of us are dealing with feelings of powerlessness and hopelessness. Some choose to just try to ignore all of these deeply disturbing issues, others lash out in rage. I think the protestors at Bike Happy Hour were doing the latter. No, it doesn’t make sense, and it contributes nothing to their goals, but it gives them the feeling that they are doing something at a time when that is increasingly difficult to come by. Thank you, and I will have to add Mayor Wilson, too, for handling it graciously. I look forward to the day when things allow us to have a calm discussion about bike lands, quality of life, and the other things that a city government can actually address.
“…, others lash out in rage. I think the protestors at Bike Happy Hour were doing the latter.”
“No, it doesn’t make sense, and it contributes nothing to their goals, but it gives them the feeling that they are doing something …”
You have perfectly summed up why they are being described as children and throwing temper tantrums to get attention.
There is always going to be injustice somewhere in the world. If this is the behavior that we are going to find acceptable, then we will never have a chance to have civil public forums in this city again.
I can guarantee that the mayor will not attend an event like this again. If JM wants an interview, it’s going to be in private.
“There is always going to be injustice somewhere in the world”
There is far more apologia for injustice — and especially so from economically comfortable “centrists”.
It’s an accurate accounting of history
But these protesters were doing the exact same thing before Gaza started and before ICE started doing this. Their rage is omni-directional, when you look into their bios for the ones that get arrested you’ll often see alot of personal trauma.
This is what happens when people feel like there’s only one issue, one litmus test that matters. Your issue is bicycles. Their issue is Gaza. Or ICE. Or whatever.
When you create an expectation that your very presence in civic life is contingent on you being true to the values held by the most passionate among us, this is the outcome.
You are correct about one thing: My issue is bicycles.
the left eats its own, once again
This. The right wing nuts don’t try to hijack each others’ events. And the difference shows in outcomes.
Bike happy hour participants are a well-known hot bed of “left”agitators.
/s
Proving my point, the left eats their own. That is why we lose. We can’t discern our allies from our enemies. Look at the history of the left, it has played out over and over. The enemy is at the gate, ready to slaughter us all, and we will be focused on fighting each other over purity levels. We weaken ourselves by dividing and attacking ourselves.
If you think raised voices directed at a very hard to pin-down mayor are enough to refuse to work with “the left” on shared political goals then the issue is with you, not the amorphous “left”.
I also find it kafka-esque to see a loud protest being described as “assault” or “violence” in this comment thread.
The left may eat itself but some (many?) centrists/libs/progressives turn to regressive politics because their sense of decorum was offended by people with passionate politics and loud voices.
I’m glad we agree that speech isn’t violence.
Was going to say the same thing.
There’s a way out.
They could disrupt right wing meetings and events (of which there are plenty) rather than undermine those who are at the very least more aligned with their objectives. But that would at least make a little sense.
The People’s Front of Judea skit poked fun at this dynamic almost a half century ago. From what I can tell not much has changed in leftist politics since then.
“They could disrupt right wing meetings and events (of which there are plenty)“
There are?? Wheat kind of right wing meetings go on in the Portland area?!
I hope you’re kidding. Portland is one of the largest concentrations of people in the western United States. All types live here — there are gun, religious, political, etc groups of all stripes just like in any major metro area. Google a bit and you’ll see. We are not so unidimensional and monocultural.
When you get down to it, sporting events, concerts, and the like are all really just large meetings. If they really want to be heard, that seems like a natural venue — unless they’re concerned that it shows lack of propriety to disrupt someone’s amusement to address a critical injustice.
In any case, if the whole problem is the status quo is being supported, there are all kinds of public meetings at all levels exist for the purpose of helping develop policy they could participate in.
I promise hardly anyone outside a small group knows about cycling advocacy activities. It shows a serious lack of imagination to believe mucking one of those up has the potential to be more than self indulgent performative nonsense.
But then again, that could be why nothing gets accomplished. In any case, looks like we’ll have troops here soon enough. I’m sure we’ll give FOX news just the show they want.
You need to stop thinking that center right people are on the left.
I have an issue with government representatives who are not Keith Wilson over US policies that are beyond cruel (and also self defeating) for any person who has tried to understand them. Gaza, immigration, present day colonialism, the list goes on. Party line votes aren’t enough from congress members. I think ghost town halls would be a good place to start. Among other things, minority leaders and ranking members must be resolute and outrageous, or else retired.
Mayor Wilson has already exceeded my expectations as a practical politician. He was not my first choice but I’ll take him over any careerist who has never slept rough, never met a payroll, never ridden a bike on the street, never put the personal safety of workers on their own conscience, never had a thought about how individual opportunities and the resulting choices wreck the planet…
It seems like the Mayor is focusing on the issues that he ran on. That’s creditable. It does seem like the issue of ICE is coming to meet us, they are on the street in every town and Portland is on the list to get a boot on the neck. I need to hear from local and state government that we are in support of LA, DC, and where ever else the military might show up. Amicus briefs and executive orders are only the beginning.
I think it is time to put my boots on, turn off my phone, and take a walk down to South Portland.
I am sorry this happened. Keith Wilson has not made himself available very much. In fact I am not even sure he has met with City employees outside of politics in any real way. So it’s understandable that people saw this as a rare chance to have access to him.
I’d love to see you do this sit down, perhaps online with a way to mute participants. (As someone who can’t ever practically make Bike Happy Hour, this was one I went out of my way to make).
Ditto – my first Bike Happy Hour ever to hear what the Mayor had to say about bike policy. Sigh.
Very likely the people who slashed tires and spray painted cars at a recently AI networking event were in the crowd. Sorry but the reality is that some in our community are just there to stir the pot.
You might want to look in the mirror on the “stirring the pot” claim here.
You have no concrete reasons other than your hunch that there’s overlap here.
Sounds a bit gaslighty–having paid attention to this stuff that’s been going on in my city since at least 2016 and run away from these people and their hijinx multiple times–I know who they are–its the same crowd and you know it Paul H. Proof or not.
Ironic, since every person trashing cars at an AI event likely had AI in their pocket or backpack. I hate and fear AI too but I haven’t stopped using social media…
If anyone else isn’t quite sure how to feel about all of this, South Park did an entire episode about exactly this, where several of them are battling for attention about different (and all very legitimate) crises. S21 E1 “Put it Down”. The whole thing’s on Youtube
Thanks Iresener, Very apropos, given the competing interests of distracted driving vs suicide awareness. The moment when a group of people attempting to somberly remind the public of the recent deaths of various car-smashed kids interrupted by Cartman with a bullhorn reminded me very much of this event.
Both of those issues are worthwhile in their own right. And both elicit painful memories and dedicated people who adopt them as goals in life. And that is good! Apathy or helplessness due to an overwhelming feeling of fear or whatever isn’t constructive. But neither is ignoring the hard work that another group has done, particularly one that generally supports you. At that point you’re moving into Cartman territory.
I came down with my “Get China out of Tibet” sign in case Xi was paying attention to a Portland based community cycling conversation.
Going old school with that one.
Yes, good point, I’m sure Netanyahu and Trump were paying close attention to this Bike Happy Hour event, and the protestors likely have successfully convinced them to change course. Well done, protestors!
Thanks, Jonathan. I really appreciate the way you framed this.
I found the tactics of the protesters both disrespectful and counter-productive. Disrespectful to the mayor, to Jonathan, and to the hundred+ interview attendees.
Counter-productive for different reasons:
I understand the frustration of both protest groups, who fell they are not being heard, and certainly are not achieving any success. What this event showed is that violence and confrontation don’t help. These protesters should try new tactics, such as those that worked for Martin Luther King, Jr. and Nelson Mandela.
Was it only a week ago that the big challenge interviewing the mayor was recording while riding?
haha yes! And I didn’t ask any hard questions because I figured I had a better chance for substantive conversation at this event.
Tune in for next week’s interview which will take place inside an actual Thunderdome!
I’m just glad the mayor hasn’t suggested doing a zoom interview while he’s driving around doing errands in his SUV.
It’s so frustrating to see yet another example of pro-Palestine activists hurting their own cause again and again. I wholeheartedly agree with them that Israel is committing genocide and that it is a vital issue in the world right now. But the idea that the mayor of a mid-tier American city has any real power over or impact on the Israeli genocide is completely ludicrous. Here we have a mayor who understands his role as someone who should be focused on solving problems here in Portland, and wants to engage with the bicycling community on this topic, and he and everyone who came to hear this interview are shouted down by activists who should be aiming their protests at the Trump and Netanyahu administrations.
Stuff like this, belittling anyone who cares about any other topic (it’s actually possible to care about multiple issues at once), shouting down anyone who doesn’t exactly match their feelilngs, and accuse other people of being white supremacists (great way to shut down any conversation, plus Middle Eastern identies don’t map neatly onto our conceptions of “white” and “person of color” anyway), these are all great ways to alienate the very people who are most likely to be your allies.
It reminds me of when pro-Palestine protestors shut down a New Seasons near me on Thanksgiving a couple years ago. I wondered if New Seasons was supporting Israel in some way…but no, it turned out they just thought that was a good way to get attention. Well, not all press is good press. It was just a pointless, alienating, obnoxious thing to do. Protesting Mayor Wilson because we happen to have a sister city in Israel, a meaningless thing that doesn’t have anything to do with Gaza, likely one of dozens of sister cities established over the years, and something that would make zero difference if the Mayor wasted time on changing, is just so counter-productive and is worse than pointless…it hurts the cause.
I feel this 100% I feel the likely extent of this Sister City relationship is probably boiled down to a sign in a park somewhere bearing the name of the respective cities, clearly no binding laws here.
When the group showed up with its Palestinian flags and table and signboards, I had a quiet, but instinctual, reaction.
I had that reaction because I have yet to hear *anyone* working from this perspective openly and clearly disavow what Hamas did on October 7.
I had that reaction because too many Palestinian supporters are so intent on expanding the blame from “Zionists” to “Jews” so quickly, with almost no room for complexity or meaningful discourse; and that’s a much easier and faster leap to make in 2025.
I had that reaction because I have experienced direct antisemitism multiple times since childhood, including eviction, job loss and physical harm.
I hate that this has become my new default now, but this is the world in 2025, I’m a sixty-something retiree, and I don’t live in a city with a large, dense Jewish population.
And when the Mayor was late in arriving, and nearly every open mic speaker was talking about genocide and looking for people to blame, I decided it was time for me to leave.
The video that aired later confirmed that I’d made the right choice.
And I don’t know when I’ll be back.
Stay strong, stay safe and may peace be with you. And may peace find its way into the hearts of those protestors that have had their hearts filled with such a bitter poison.
Jake9, thank you. I don’t know who you are, and I don’t know how to get in touch with you IRL, but thank you for hearing me. Be well.
This is just ridiculous pablum made up in fox news fever dreams. Palestinian rights activists do not move from criticizing the Israeli genocide to being generally anti Jewish people.
This is just a facile strategy to deflect legitimate criticism. You, and Jake9, and several others who have made comments on this post are all guilty of engaging in blatant bad faith mischaracterizing of the points of view of pro Palestinian activists.
I don’t support the confrontation tactics that they engaged in on Wednesday, but this lazy accusation of antisemitism that you’re tossing around is grotesque and false.
So you in your comfort are telling someone what and how to feel about their own safety?
You in your privilege are going to tell someone that a bunch of agitated protestors who have recently attacked a Jewish owned hotel…
https://www.wweek.com/news/2025/03/28/two-people-arrested-after-allegedly-vandalizing-and-trying-to-break-into-the-society-hotel-in-old-town/
…and who bicycle and protest around while screaming about sending the intifada globally, and that Palestine will be free from the river to the sea.
If you know any history (and so many here do not) you’ll know that those phrases reference globalizing the 1st and 2nd intifada that took place where Gazans killed Jews by a variety of gruesome means. the 2nd intifada was famous for Gazan men and women wearing suicide vests and blowing themselves and Israelis up. I believe this is when the Palestine Authority blood payments to “martyrs” started too, but it might have been earlier.
River to the sea means the elimination of Israel and all the Jews as the Arabs have succeeded doing in their own countries and tried to wipe out Israel and the Jews with armies multiple times.
Oh, and Adolf (the real one) met with the Arabs and they offered assistance to his final solution.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-official-record-what-the-mufti-said-to-hitler/
The following is an official German record of the meeting between Adolf Hitler and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, on November 28, 1941, at the Reich Chancellory in Berlin.
So yes, a Jewish person would have every reason to feel threatened by people putting up flags that reference and glorify all this murderous history.
So people vandalized a hotel because hotel staff or management were preventing people from distributing food to the homeless. You say that’s antisemitism because the hotel owner happened to be Jewish?
Some people who supported Hitler a hundred years ago happened to be ethnic Arabs, therefore all opposition to genocide of Palestinians is inherently antisemitic?
These are insane leaps of logic.
Thats’s your take away from all that? No retrospective thoughts on your arrogant assumption of others level of fear and concern? Just some bizarre and inaccurate nitpicking that doesn’t make sense. You have nothing to add?
Just clinging to your assumptions without any attempt at contemplation? I can see why you think there is a genocide now, you lack any ability to independently think or question.
Is it reasonable for a past victim of antisemitism to fear future incidences of antisemitism? Sure.
But your diatribe above insinuates that any Arab or defender of rights of Palestinians can automatically be assumed to be a threatening antisemite who supports the killing of Jews or Israelis. That’s insane and discriminatory. Opposition to genocide is not equal or tantamount to support of Hamas.
Now we are getting somewhere.
“Opposition to genocide is not equal or tantamount to support of Hamas.”
Prove it! Go ahead, lets hear it.
After that, maybe you or another of the genocide believers can answer these questions that no one has been able to in the several years of periodic discussions of this topic.
1) Why don’t any of the protestors ever denounce Hamas? That would be a huge start.
2) How do activists separate support or censure of Hamas from support of a population that seems to support Hamas?
3) Why do they continue to scream hateful and murderous slogans which are 100% antisemitic?
These are not gotcha questions, I am very curious of any activist who can answer them. So far no one wants to try in the several years that this comes up periodically.
My “diatribe” was to let you know why someone would be afraid of the protestors and not feel safe.
Should I be required to recant the sins of my forefathers as a prerequisite to asserting my basic right to life and liberty? Must I denounce all past and current misdeeds of those that share my race or nationality before I am allowed to plead for mercy, food, and water for my suffering family and neighbors?
It doesn’t look like my response is making it so I’ll try again.
It seems like people are very happy to express their magnanimity by saying they “are against genocide” and don’t bother to question what genocide is.
I would be thrilled if anyone could answer the questions I posed as no one seems to be able to think things through and only want to give soundbite answers that don’t pertain.
The DEI trainers at my workplace wanted that very thing.
I’ll bite. The short answer is that the type of question you pose does not appear urgent to opposing partisans in their moral calculus. I will exhibit parallel questions that do not appear urgent from the Israeli side of the debate.
I’ve agued above in the context of the sister city arrangement that people cannot be held responsible for the action of their leaders. I can elaborate more, but there is a huge difference between abhorrence at the evident intentional genocide currently being inflicted by the IDF and support for Hamas.
I certainly can’t speak for the broader movement, but I, personally, am very happy to denounce Hamas: they are a murderous, militant terrorist organization and a primary agitator in the region. Why don’t ‘supporters of Israel’ ever denounce the IDF?
My guess is that activists don’t spend too much effort on this rhetorical distinction because they perceive the situation with moral clarity: the Palestinian people are being subjected to extreme dehumanizing violence and require our solidarity. Again, how do supporters of Israel separate their support for Israel from the Religious Zionist Party or the other crazier parts of the current Israeli government, who, also, were elected and appear to enjoy the support of a lot of Israelis?
The answer is that people believe in the right of return. Nothing has done more to undercut American support for Israel than the unfortunate rhetorical tactic of framing every type of Palestinian solidarity as illegitimate because it is antisemitic and the resulting speech policing. Many ascendent voices in Israel are openly calling for Jewish supremacy in all of Judea and Samaria, and Netanyahu is no longer even pretending he does not intend to annex the West Bank. “From the River to the Sea” is simply the mirror image position.
Partisans in this dispute do not see any moral legitimacy in the opposing side. Those with no close ties to either side see a moral catastrophe repeat with dehumanization by all sides. The Oct. 7 attacks were reprehensible terrorism, but the Gaza genocide needs to end yesterday.
Hi Micah (hand wave emoji)
Great post and thank you for making sense and having real arguments (as you frequently do)! I I’ll be able to respond tomorrow, just wanted to let you know I see it and I’m thinking on what you’ve said.
Okay, let me try, apologies in advance if the wording comes out awkward. It’s a difficult subject and sometimes a polite phrasing doesn’t work…
” I can elaborate more, but there is a huge difference between abhorrence at the evident intentional genocide currently being inflicted by the IDF and support for Hamas.”
I disagree that there is a genocide happening to the Gazans. It seems to be an accepted fact here on BP that any tactic is allowed to spread the pro Gazan word because there is a genocide happening. Yet no one has offered information on when the genocide started or how can there be one when the population keeps rapidly increasing. The press and academics can’t really seem to decide if there is one, when it started or if there were multiple genocides inflicted on Gaza. We have to remember in the genocide conversation who actually did their best to commit genocide.
Three times Israel was invaded by armies from multiple Arab countries with the goal of wiping Israel from the map and killing its inhabitants as they had killed or forced out all the Jews from those Arab countries.
If anyone can demonstrate that there is a genocide happening rather than simply repeat unfounded claims I would be happy to rconsider your information.
“I certainly can’t speak for the broader movement, but I, personally, am very happy to denounce Hamas: they are a murderous, militant terrorist organization and a primary agitator in the region. Why don’t ‘supporters of Israel’ ever denounce the IDF?”
You are a rarity in your ability to denounce without a “but” thrown in.
As far as denouncing the IDF, they are policing themselves as best can be done in a war. Google “IDF soldiers charged” and you should get a list of soldiers being charged with crimes. Here is just one example…
IDF reservist arrested for killing civilian in Jerusalem terror attackhttps://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-776420
So far the savages who raped and butchered their way through the crowds and homes while filming themselves have been celebrated and cheered in the street and lauded by people around the world who carry their banners and hold them high. Even in faraway places like Portland. The Gazan government isn’t punishing them, they are heros. There is no “both sides” argument between Hamas and the IDF soldiery. Hamas hides amongst the civilians in uniform and in civilian clothes, steals relief food and executes Gazans who disagree with them.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/why-hamas-is-executing-palestinians-amid-food-crisis-under-israeli-blockade/ar-AA1ErTW6?ocid=BingNewsSerp
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/hamas-tortured-and-killed-palestinian-collaborators-during-gaza-conflict-new-report
My guess is that activists don’t spend too much effort on this rhetorical distinction because they perceive the situation with moral clarity: the Palestinian people are being subjected to extreme dehumanizing violence and require our solidarity. Again, how do supporters of Israel separate their support for Israel from the Religious Zionist Party or the other crazier parts of the current Israeli government, who, also, were elected and appear to enjoy the support of a lot of Israelis?
Why do they require your solidarity and no one else? They are in a declared war with Israel. Horrible things are happening. It wounds us all to see whats happening. It is sadly not the only place where there is horror taking place right at this moment. The argument that it is our tax dollars is tiresome. That war would be going on with or without US money. What moral clarity is there? The Arabs colonized the area, pushing the indigenous people out. When they started filtering back, the indigenous peoples had to buy their own land back. All they could buy were the places the Arabs didn’t want like swamps and barren places and yet they did and made the land hospitable. Then they were attacked again by multiple countries at once because the colonizers couldn’t handle the idea of the indigenous peoples returning. Rinse and repeat and here we are.
The answer is that people believe in the right of return. Nothing has done more to undercut American support for Israel than the unfortunate rhetorical tactic of framing every type of Palestinian solidarity as illegitimate because it is antisemitic and the resulting speech policing. Many ascendent voices in Israel are openly calling for Jewish supremacy in all of Judea and Samaria, and Netanyahu is no longer even pretending he does not intend to annex the West Bank. “From the River to the Sea” is simply the mirror image position.
Partisans in this dispute do not see any moral legitimacy in the opposing side. Those with no close ties to either side see a moral catastrophe repeat with dehumanization by all sides. The Oct. 7 attacks were reprehensible terrorism, but the Gaza genocide needs to end yesterday.
The right of return happened. The indigenous people came back and against horrific opposition managed to rebuild their homeland.
“From the River to the sea” goes back to the 60’s (of course there are many counter claims as with all history of that area as so many people are vested with making crap up to fit their preferred narrative) So kind of before the Netanyahu era (I certainly hope the justice he deserves for his corruption finds him).
I’m afraid I might have faded away towards the end, but thank you for following it this far.
Hi Jake9. Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Give me some time to consider what you’ve written, and I will try to formulate a response.
Best,
Micah
Hi Jake9. These are heavy issues, so I want to start by thanking you for your good will. I had intended a comprehensive response, but work has been unexpectedly rowdy recently, and I have not found time to compose one. Instead, I offer the following, brief statements. I think we all have a responsibility to work for peace and to understand ‘the other’ in all their humanity, as Derrida said.
When I called the ongoing violence in Gaza “genocide”, I meant that Palestinians are being killed because they are Palestinians, which I think is consistent with Lemkin’s concept. I want to set that term aside, however, because it’s beside the point. It’s clear that, if Palestinian humanity carries any moral standing, immediate cessation of the military assualt by Israel is imperative. Aid has to be allowed in.
I also feel the debate over claims of indigenousness to the region is similarly marked by a failure to acknowledge the shared humanity of the competing sides. You speak of “the indigenous” people as if indigenousness is exclusive, but I think both Jews and Palestinians both have genuine (and certainly sincere) claims of connection to the land.
You have asked people to denounce Hamas. I ask you to see the humanity of the Palestinians.
Your kindness speaks loudly and your points are well thought and expressed. I absolutely agree that once terminology is stripped away there is only a horrible fever dream of blood and despair. If I could wave a wand and get rid of that sickness I would (as I know without doubt you would as well), but I can’t so feel very trapped in what seems to be a solvable issue made insolvable through the fire of human emotion. May peace and mercy push the vengeance and fear out of our hearts.
Hi Micah!
I got a little sad while writing a response to your kind post and forgot to thank you for a very thoughtful and introspective discussion.
Thank you!
Also, forgive my presumptuousness, but I “discovered “ this song after I came back and I think you would like it. One can substitute “Baghdad” with “Palestine” and it doesn’t change the meaning or emotions of the song at all. Just helps illustrate that once the human heart gets involved it is so hard to see anything clearly.
The Nightwatchman- No One Left
https://youtu.be/vRIMgNvYx4g?si=1zYNu_UM9ScY3sgC
Thanks for the link! Tom Morello is awesome!
Israel has repeatedly murdered humanitarian volunteers and workers, plus has succeeded in reducing aid sites from hundreds to about 40, with the resulting few being effectively under Israel’s control. All this after many years of blockade. Then there’s the multiple times that Israel warned Palestinians to evacuate to areas they ended up bombing, anyway. You seem intent on resisting the mere facts that make genocide obvious to people across the globe. Both Israelis and Palestinians have as much right to life as anybody else. No murderous administration or organization does. Where exactly does your allegiance in this issue lie?
That is THE takeaway from what guy e wrote.
You want imagined and made up fears of potential violence to be im weighed higher than the actual real genocide happening now.
After that disrespectful protest I am now more supportive of Israel than before. When those protestors start to protest Hamas and their terrorism, then maybe they’ll earn more support and respect. Jonathan handled the situation as well as could be expected, and the Mayor had to leave to cool the situation down, he was not going to be able to say anything to calm the protestors down.
If you can’t keep your opinion of Israel and its actions separate from your opinion of protestors of any kind, your opinion rested on a shaky foundation, anyway.
They won’t. Last year in the days leading up to Oct 7, they obsessively and eagerly ramped up hosting various rides about Gaza. They host so many throughout the year that they could’ve had the respect to not host them during that time. But they didn’t. I found it offensive to say the least, if you were to go further you could call it hateful to host them at that time.
If we’re going to save our country, first we need to show that progressive places actually work, from public safety to potholes — and yes, even bike lanes. It’s a shame that a few selfish people hijacked a local transportation event and tried to make it about national and geopolitical issues.
You are absolutely right. Can you think of some examples where progressive values are working now?
Yep, you’re right nothing “progressive” is working . . .
Progressive = regressive.
Unless the concerned call out the nutty, the regular folks will lump everyone in together as nutty and you will be ignored . Hence why you were asked to deal with your nutty old buddies.
This is just classic. Selfish people ruining a basic meeting. Classic Portland. Cue the 150 apologists.
Jonathan Maus, I understand why you may be taking the stance patience and tolerance, during this certainly highly frustrating incident. To be honest these protesters were behaving like toddlers having a temper tantrum. Thus they should be treated as such. They disrespected you, the biking community, the mayor, etc and will continue to be a disruptive nuisance until we stop tolerating their BS. In Portland activist views on these topics have been protested ad nauseum.
The simple reality is we are in Portland Oregon
1. NOTHING a freaking mayor does in a city 8000 miles away is going to impact/stop the Israeli war against Hamas in Gaza. PERIOD! If Mayor Wilson in liberal Portland were to call Nationalistic Conservative Netanayu, it would probably just motivate him to refuel to jets for another bombing run…
2. Portland is a deep blue city 3000 miles from DC and 1000 miles from the southern border. We have nil influence on the white house. Expelling ICE is nothing more than a symbolic move. Most of us are ignorant and don’t have to deal with the issues caused by loose border policy. Anyone that thinks anyone anytime should get to migrate into the US is naive. These anti-ICE activists are accomplishing nothing but making the life miserable for nearby residents and for those agents just following orders. Maybe these activists would have better results going to DC or working with congressional policy makers in immigration reform!
People of Portland should be far more concerned with the drug addiction epidemic that is eating the city alive.
Re Drugs and the loose border policies: Not that I agree with immigration raids in the interior US, but the drug epidemic has correlated with the undocumented Honduran drug dealers downtown, which Bike Portland readers have definitely dealt with the effects of, whether they recognized it or not.
Beyond my main thoughts in my other post, imho the main winner of this fiasco was Fox News and conservative media. The immaturity and absurdity of the Gaza and anti-ICE activists shutting down a live event held by a bike advocacy group with the mayor in one of the US’s most exemplary liberal cities will be not be overlooked… Another example of “liberals eating their own”
So good job activists! You made Portland the laughing joke of the nation again and are helping fuel the campaigns of the MAGA candidates nationwide! While accomplishing nil results aside from alienating many of your ideological allies.
I suppose the reason the genocide in Palestine is more important than the genocide in Sudan for some people is that the US is directly complicit in allowing Israel to do it. But I have to wonder, what about a political issue where all of humanity is at stake? Is climate change (also caused by the complicity of America) just something to ignore because people aren’t being actively murdered? Advocating to change how you might live your own life by not driving everywhere is too inconceivable and inconvenient, so instead let’s shut down a public conversation with someone who has no real influence on genocides but might have influence on our region’s contribution to climate change..
so much truth re: climate change. a more urgent phrase from the doomersphere is “near term human extinction” so in truth, all of humanity and every other species, is at near term risk.
<3 thanks for creating this space! Biking has made me think a lot about what it means to exist in public. There’s just so much more interaction. Bike happy hour and this interview feels like an extension of that. I agree about creating a big tent. I think you handled this well, as someone who believes in free palestine and bike infrastructure!
Hi Courtney. Thanks so much for saying that.
From the article:
“But as the war on Palestinians became a genocide…”
Jonathan — the War was not on Palestinians. It was and has been on Hamas.
Hamas started this on October 7, 2023 and has continued to use Palestinian citizens as human shields, with the blessing of nearly the entire Arab Middle East. Neither Israel, the US or anyone else, can free the Palestinians from their entrapment without first defeating Hamas.
The handful of Palestinian civilians in Gaza who have dared to speak out against Hamas have been disappeared or killed.
I would have more openness to what Wednesday’s protestors had to say if they would clearly and directly distance themselves and their work from Hamas. I have yet to hear anything like that from ANY Palestinian supporter in Portland since this whole thing started.
If you are going to write at all about this conflict, even in passing, I implore you to please consider your language with care and clarity. Thank you.
Thanks for that Beth. I appreciate the insight and will consider a correction.
“I have yet to hear anything like that from ANY Palestinian supporter in Portland since this whole thing started.”
I keep hearing this claim and it’s really hard for me to get my head around. Can anyone honestly claim they’ve literally never heard anyone express that while the October 7 attack was deeply wrong, Israel’s response has also been deeply wrong both in terms of tactics and proportion? If you haven’t heard such an opinion, I’d suggest there may be some obstacle to your ability or willingness to hear it.
And if one holds the position that the United States shouldn’t continue providing seemingly unconditional support to Israel, why is it necessary to preface that statement with a disavowal of Hamas? This seems to imply that any criticism of the Israeli government is an inherently pro-Hamas stance. Are we so unaccustomed to nuance that we refuse to see it anymore?
“I keep hearing this claim and it’s really hard for me to get my head around. “
Let’s start with something simple then.Will you denounce Hamas? Here? And only Hamas for the 7OCT attack?
We all hear (very loudly) that Israel is fighting back too hard. As Beth H said, we never hear the same about Hamas.
You could be the first locally to do so.
It has been said many times, and your willful ignorance of it and repeating this line ad nauseum is just a bad faith conversation tactic to defend an obvious genocide.
I denounce Hamas. I denounce Hamas using civilians as human shields. I’ve heard plenty anti-Zionists say the same thing. Like I said to someone above, if people can’t keep their opinions of Israel and its actions separate from what anybody else does, their opinion of Israel was on a shaky foundation, anyway. Whether Israel’s response has been proportional or of acceptable tactics has nothing to do with what anybody here says. Folks like you and Beth are effectively expecting others to be objective in ways you aren’t expecting yourselves to be.
But I’ll go further. I believe the “human shields” argument is probably more often than not a bullshit justification for both civilian murder and collateral damage. I acknowledge that Israel made a mistake in helping Hamas into power in the first place. I believe that if Israel only cared to wage war on Hamas, they wouldn’t need to bulldoze entire communities to make space for their settlers. I believe our government and corporate USA have a deep interest in whitewashing the violence Israel commits, and that they have for decades.
Trump, RFK Jr, Hegseth, etc wage war on truth every day, so much that our society feels very upside down and backwards to me. In a similar way, we have been so steeped in pro-Israel propaganda for decades that this discussion feels like a bombardment of it. I’d recommend anybody who repeats tired pro-Israel tropes and/or who can’t seem to understand pro-Palestinians check out Citations Needed episodes on the matter as an introduction to another viewpoint. The most recent three are on the subject. https://citationsneeded.libsyn.com/
You couldn’t just denounce Hamas and leave it at that. You segued into accusations of murder in a way that demonstrates you don’t really understand that part of the world or what the Gazans and Israelis are capable of. The Gazans sent men and women (drugged or not, remote detonated or not we’re not sure which further means that it’s unclear if they were volunteers) with bomb vests to kill themselves and Israelis. This is just one example in how they value human life which absolutely gives credence to the idea that human shields are being used.
To reiterate, you were unable to meet the challenge you attempted.
One more thing. Proportionality is an illusion of the people comfortable and safe. It’s an intellectual pursuit that assumes that there is time and power to discuss and ponder and then enact a response. Israel is fighting for its very existence against an opponent that wants to wipe it out so they will be free of Jews from the river to the sea. Israel does not have your luxury of detachment.
No, this is absurd.
So “Will you denounce Hamas, and then stop talking about anything else so the apartheid state can carry out a genocide with your money” is what you really meant to say.
There are no words. I find it hard to believe there are people at uncaring about human life as this, but here we are.
I make accusations of murder, but Israel claiming all their targets are Hamas or Hamas shields is something you swallow without question. Okay.
Who is more comfortable, Israelis or Palestinians? Which one faces famine? You have made a joke of proportionality, and I say that well aware that I face no threat whatsoever. I want both Israelis and Palestinians to live without fear, but if you can’t see that Israel is by far the greater agressor, with way more resources behind them and much more potential to end the conflict, go ahead and keep burying your head in the sand.
Also, you weren’t challenging me. I stepped up of my own accord. Why you’d want to limit my speech to simply meeting your challenge is beyond me.
I get that you’re a veteran who has seen horrendous shit, and that you apparently have a personal stake in this matter as a result, but have some perspective. Your anecdotal experience does not define the whole issue, and your unwillingness to consider more information and alternative angles does not look good on you.
How, exactly, can Israel do this? They can certainly stop shooting, but that will only end the immediate carnage (or not, as today’s events in Jerusalem show). The conflict will simmer on, and flare up again, bloodily, just as it has so many times in the past.
Aside from disappearing, what can Israel do to actually end the conflict and bring about peace with the Palestinians? That is something that is simply not within their power to do unilaterally.
Both parties have to be willing to build a long term peaceful co-existence, and currently, neither is.
This is such an insane line of reasoning!
Sure they could stop the shooting, but that would only end the death and suffering, the thing everybody is fucking demanding! Did you even read what you wrote? Could you say that to someone with a straight face?
The “carnage” recently pales in comparison to one weekend of mass shootings right here in America. The idea that that would justify the ongoing murder and subjugation (and stealing of land) of all Palestinians is the most inhuman line of thought imaginable.
Again, it’s just because people who make these arguments think Israelis are human, and Palestinians are not.
You think my reasoning is insane, but I don’t think there is an way Israel is going to leave an armed Hamas intact after what they did on Oct 7th, and I don’t think it’s reasonable to ask that they do. That’s essentially what the protestors are demanding.
I think they’re all human (yes, even the Israelis, there’s that “both sides” again), and all deserve peace and security. How do we move forward into that world? Does giving Hamas a chance to regroup help or hurt the chances for long term peace?
You’re just dodging. Israel could not have done this without our support. And other kinds of pressure, that our country has the power to exert, could make it even more difficult for them to continue their current behavior. And would that work? It can’t be known for sure, but it’s like there is this open wound and you’re saying “sure we’re rubbing dirt in it, but we don’t know for sure that stopping would actually heal the wound, so let’s just keep doing the stupid thing we know is making it worse.” People aren’t demanding the US definitely end the conflict, that’s not something we can ensure. People are demanding that we do what we can instead of fuel it.
This is something that our country has very much blame for and power over. It isn’t actually a hard question.
“I think they’re all human ”
You plainly do not. Or you aren’t acting like it. You think Israeli lives are worth more. That is the only explanation for your words.
I make accusations of murder, but Israel claiming all their targets are Hamas or Hamas shields is something you swallow without question. Okay.
Yes, I do believe all the targets they are after are combatants. Do non-combatants get killed as well when the combatants hide behind them? Occasionally, yes. I do believe Israel has a multi-tier permission system before a strike is launched and also know how those systems can fail.
Why do you believe Israel is deliberately murdering random Gazans? What causes you to think they would do such thing?
Who is more comfortable, Israelis or Palestinians? Which one faces famine?
The world and the US has given Gaza over 40 billion dollars since 1994 so I would say that Gaza had the potential to be as comfortable as the large cities of Israel, but they squandered most of the money on war and terrorism.
Neither face famine. Do a search on “Palestinian Famine” and look at the dates on the stories. I believe its about every 4-6 months the press does a series of articles on starvation or impending starvation and yet no one is really starving. Hamas is most definitely not starving.
I want both Israelis and Palestinians to live without fear,
Good for you, the Gazans want to kill Israelis as it spells out in the Hamas Charter.
https://forward.com/opinion/564190/hamas-charter-truth/
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/
but if you can’t see that Israel is by far the greater aggressor, with way more resources behind them and much more potential to end the conflict, go ahead and keep burying your head in the sand.
What conflict has Israel started? Which intifada did they begin? Israel is constantly attacked and you say they are the aggressors? How does that work?
How can they end the conflict. Go ahead and spell it out. Israel could stop fighting today and Hamas would attack again. I know this because it has happened many times in the past. That is why knowledge of history is important.
This is your chance to let us all know what the end state will be. A one state solution? A two state solution? UN troops in Gaza keeping the peace? In Israel keeping the peace? Israel re-established somewhere else?
Also, you weren’t challenging me. I stepped up of my own accord. Why you’d want to limit my speech to simply meeting your challenge is beyond me.
I don’t understand this part at all, but I gather it is some sort of attack on me while simultaneously boosting yourself.
Your anecdotal experience does not define the whole issue, and your unwillingness to consider more information and alternative angles does not look good on you.
If you looked at more sources besides tiktok and Al-Jazeera you would have a better understanding of what is anecdotal. Because I do not agree with your information as the sources are ludicrous does not mean I do not consider them. You and most western genocide believers have little to none understanding of the conflict that has been raging for thousands of years over there. Your comfort levels here preclude you from being able to conceptualize the suffering that is happening there and that is shown by your desperate desire to make a logical sense of what is happening. Logic has left the region a long time ago and has been replaced by aimless rage, misogyny and a desire for paradise that is not and never will be available on this earthly plane. Why don’t the Arab nations take in the Gazans and save lives? Why doesn’t Egypt open it’s giant wall and let the Gazans through? Or give them aid? I’m very curious to hear an answer on this one. Maybe you can challenge yourself and let us all know. I know why, I am just curious beyond belief what your theory is.
Both sides are not the same, nor have they been the same. One is the indigenous people come home who built a paradise out of the unwanted land the Arabs laughingly sold them and the other is attempting to finish the conquest that their people started in 630(ish) AD.
I wonder this also, daily.
“Why don’t the Arab nations take in the Gazans and save lives? Why doesn’t Egypt open it’s giant wall and let the Gazans through? Or give them aid?”
That’s a pretty racist POV though, isn’t it? Are all Arabs just a monolithic hive mind? Do all people of a certain “race” think alike and stand up for other people that meet some racist definition of “their own kind”? Do you hear what you’re saying?
Not racist. Just practical. Sure would be easier for local (meaning near Palestine) countries to take in refugees from a similar culture/language/religion than say it was for Germany, Sweden (etc) to accept about a million refugees from Syria where the language/culture was so different. I know if I were a refugee, as an english speaking US citizen it would be easier for me to migrate to Canada or the UK than it would to migrate to Poland or Estonia.
I don’t look at tiktok. I don’t read Al Jazeera. You pepper your good faith arguments with a whole lot of bad faith arguments and presumption. You clearly are so biased for Israel that you dismiss conflicting accounts out of hand. You made a jab at me for going beyond denouncing Hamas, and you think my response to that was merely boosting myself? Get over yourself, dude. I’m done with this conversation, as you seem to have no interest in the conflict ending.
Is the genocide of human shields more palatable than the genocide of Palestinians?
So, are we getting some new diverters and bike lanes or what? I also ride a 2013 Felt made of carbon fiber. Does that make me an oppressor or one of the stifled masses?
Hi Folks,
I think we’re lucky to have a mayor that rides his bike to work, understands bicycle issues, and is willing to try to step into challenging public forums to discuss bicycling.
While this particular event didn’t end the way it was intended, he should still get credit for reaching out.
If you’re excited about bicycling in Portland, consider sending Mayor Wilson a note expressing your appreciation for his knowledge and efforts.
Something like
“Dear Mayor Wilson, I watched your commute video on Bikeportland, I appreciate that you ride a bike and are knowledgeable about bicycling issues. I also ride a bike, and I want Portland’s bikeways to become even better. Thanks for your efforts!”
Etc.
Or however you’d word it if you had 45 seconds to catch his ear in a public forum, and wanted to toss him a little appreciation and encouragement.
Best,
Ted Buehler
I think cyclists should show up en masse at a ‘support Palestine’ rally and disrupt it!! Yell and scream, bullhorns, flags, ‘what about bicycle safety?’ ‘More bikes, fewer cars’, chants. Whenever anyone attempts to speak about the plight of the Palestinians, just shout them down. What’s the difference in my proposal to what actually happened at this ‘Bike Happy Hour’? These protests at BHH were not only insulting the Mayor, fellow cyclists, they were insulting YOU!!!
Because that would be a great look.
“I’m mad my local transportation focused talk was interrupted, so let’s go interrupt the people protesting genocide”
Like, it can be debated wether their protest at BHH was the right place to do it. I can see arguments either way. But if you think your butthurt is actually MORE important a cause than the Gaza genocide… Yeesh, fix your priorities.
Interesting you can presume to determine what someone’s priority is.
The Middle East has been in conflict for thousands of years. Who started what, and who did what to whom I honestly DO NOT CARE about anymore. I have enough worries in my little corner of the planet to think I can do one thing that will change the religious hatred and bigotry in the Middle East.
Good luck with your crusade. I’m sure you and your fellow protesters will make huge strides to solving the crisis in the Middle East.
People make comments like yours as if the people showing interest in this are just meddling in things they have no business in. The reality is, the US is meddling in it, on the side of actual evil. So actually, you are involved. You’re helping it continue. Your indifference is siding with the genocide.
Both sides (yes, that both sides) have exhibited plenty of evil. But it’s hard to top the Hamas attack on Oct 7th or the sustained suicide bombing campaign of the Second Intifada.
Maybe rather than arguing about which side is more evil, we could talk about solutions. Where do we go from here?
If you believe in a genocide in Gaza, how do you stay here and not go to give material support to the Gazans or liquify your wealth to give it to them?
“Evil prevails when good men do nothing “
The most impact Americans can have is to get our government to stop funding the genocide and do a weapons embargo on Israel. Your argument is facile.
Everyone wants to be on the planning committee, no one wants to actually go in the fields to work.
Portland Socialism at its best.
This isn’t a thing that Americans should be getting involved with directly AT ALL. This is the whole thing that sets this apart from other random violence happening throughout the world, this one we’re helping. We should be not helping, and we should be sanctioning Israel.
It’s not socialism to not fuel a genocide. Or, well, maybe it is, actually. Since the alternatives to socialism do end up in suffering and war.
It is socialism or barbarism after all.
“We should be not helping, and we should be sanctioning Israel.”
So how does yelling at the mayor (whether RBC or ICE protestors starting it doesn’t matter) accomplish those things. I’m not suggesting people go to where the power is for the sake of getting rid of you, but the power is not in Portland, it’s on the East Coast. Is interrupting a street safety conversation the best way to do this and sacrifice relationships with other activists or pressure Oregon Senators (when they are here) and House Reps?
That is what started this whole thing off after all. If the goal is sanctioning Israel then making them a pariah and cancelling the sister city relationship isn’t effective. It will take action by Congress since I am sure rump isn’t going to do anything.
Like I’ve said elsewhere here, I don’t know whether this was the most effective use of time or energy. Maybe not, but that’s up to the protesters to decide. I doubt it’s worthless though. While the Mayor isn’t a federal representative, you know damn well that’s not the only way one can bring about change. As you say, trump isn’t going to do anything, and Congress probably won’t either, so essentially other angles have to be tried. Why suggest people waste their time with national politics when as you say, it won’t go anywhere? Ending the sister city thing, and getting the Mayor to publicly take a side, while a drop in the bucket, is a drop. It’s probably going to require many drops in the bucket to get anything to change.
But like I said, is this the kind of event to do this protest? I don’t know. I wouldn’t have, probably, but we can use a diversity of tactics.
If you’ve already concluded that neither Trump nor Congress will do anything, what other angles are there for changing US foreign policy, with or without Mayor Wilson’s help?
Ending every sister city relationship in the world with Israel is not going to deter the IDF from doing much of anything, any more than someone canceling their sister city status with Portland would have gotten us out of Afghanistan (it took Trump to do that).
Personally, I have no beef with the Israeli people, so wouldn’t want to terminate that relationship in any case.
Boycott, divestment, and sanctions. It’s a thing. At least two of those don’t require the government to help.
Welcome, comrade. I’m already boycotting both Israel and Hamas. To do this I’ve had to change exactly nothing about my shopping habits.
How, exactly, do we make that happen? My guess is that, if it’s possible at all before 2028, we would need to build a much broader coalition, and that probably means we need to stop alienating everyone who’s not hard left.
I can tell you without a doubt, john, it was a terrible look for these protesters and the net effect was to DIMINISH support for the cause of stopping this terrible war.
I don’t believe it. It’s debatable if it was a good idea for these protestors to disrupt the talk. Sure, I can see that. But I don’t believe anyone who is convinced or can be convinced that there is a genocide happening and that they should care would actually care less because of this protest. That just isn’t a thing.
“Yeah I used to think this was a genocide, but now I think it less because these protestors were annoying”
Its possible some people were not reached by this messaging, that might have been reached by a q and a or some other venue. Sure. But if they’re reachable, this didn’t change that. Not a chance. The people saying what you are, I believe, are among the unreachable people who don’t care about genocide or about these people being killed.
Brilliant idea but imagine it would be extremely dangerous for the cyclists.
Yes, I imagine so . . . .just like it was for the Jews on October 7th.
I’m old enough to remember folks wearing these pins in the 1960s. It’s all bad.
*** Hi. I’m OK with you sharing critiques of people, but only if they are thoughtful and backed up with rationale. Please make sure your critiques do not become direct and mean insults. I’ve deleted several of your comments (and have left some up) and won’t hesitate to do so again if your tone doesn’t change a bit. I hope you understand. – Jonathan Maus. ***
Hi Jonathan, appreciate what you say. These people have caused a lot of trouble in the biking community and beyond, and the video highlights just how they are. They have caused a lot of upset with even the most mild-mannered cyclists.
I’m sorry but not surprised they disrupted what would have been a very important event you organized. I think you give them a saint’s amount of patience and grace.
Jonathan you do a real disservice by repeating the “genocide” histrionics. It’s not a genocide. By describing it as such you’re blindly adopting the language of whatever bullsh*t agglomeration of warmed-over “activism” this group of individuals has had to adopt to march in lockstep with their peers.
Seriously, man…You are not required to apologize to these folks or adopt their thinly-veiled language of perpetual agitation. Imagine explaining your reasoning for the “genocide” reference to the friends and families of the Israelis who were systematically murdered, raped and kidnapped by Hamas in the attack that precipitated this conflict.
Regardless, keep up the fight for the bicycling community. I hope you get your conversation with the Mayor.
How is it not a genocide? Look beyond Oct. 7th, and then justify your stance, please.
Because the Gaza population is increasing and has been increasing.
https://www.worlddata.info/asia/palestine/populationgrowth.php
(Current)
https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-united-nations-palestinian-territories-gaza-strip-0b9fbb989fc2411495afd811da4ac6d0
(2016)
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240513-number-of-palestinians-has-increased-10-fold-since-1948-nakba/
(2024)
Does anyone here actually know what a genocide is??
“Does anyone here actually know what a genocide is??”
I certainly do. Given that it is nearly impossible to imagine Israel accepting an independent Palestinian state after October 7th (I certainly wouldn’t if I were in their shoes), it seems clear that, from their perspective, the only way to protect themselves is to expel the Palestinian population (just as Palestinians would do to Israelis if given the chance).
It’s hard to see what’s happening in Gaza as anything except a means towards that end. (Well that, and keeping Netanyahu out of prison.) I don’t think Israel is trying to kill all the Palestinians, but I do think they would like to make life as miserable as possible in the hopes that people just give up and leave.
Arguing about whether that constitutes genocide is something best left to the courts.
Leave for where? The USA? Canada? Australia? Germany? UK?
Not sure any neighboring Muslim nations seem to have offered the Gazans refugee/asylum resettlement.
Anywhere that’s not there.
I don’t claim the strategy of removing Palestinians is realistic, but I think it is likely one being pursued by a politically significant part of the Israeli government. I suspect they think concentrating the population in a giant refugee camp in the south of Gaza would be a good second choice.
I guess neighboring nations have not offered resettlement to Palestinians because they don’t want to take on the economic burden of caring for refugees?
Perhaps, but mainly it’s because they are afraid of the violence the Gazans will bring with them.
This is a good story from Politico (hardly a right wing mouthpiece) on the dislike of Palestinians by other Arab nations.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/21/why-arab-states-wont-support-palestinians-qa-00142277
That is what led to Black September, the 1970 PLO effort to overthrow the Jordanian monarchy. That failed not just because of the prowess of the Jordanian military but also because the Syrians withheld the air support for the Palestinians they had promised, and that allowed the Jordanians to win the day. That Syrian air force was under command of a general named Hafez al-Assad [later ruler of Syria], whose hatred and fear of all things Palestinian was intense.
And an interesting point of view by a Saudi if you have access to YouTube.
https://youtu.be/V6YoRJCeXFk?si=IdGQR5QuLHY0gwpb
Great comment as always Jake9. I have some level of respect for those who know the history of this region, and engaged in activism years before Oct 7, though I think they are misguided. The ones such as these who showed up to Jonathan’s interview with the Mayor just to get their narcissistic needs met only jumped on the bandwagon in the immediate aftermath of those horrific attacks gleefully filmed on GoPros. Anyone who saw even seconds of the footage and was not sickened by it must be a hollow husk of a human. To then use that event as a springboard for their egos and anger, well I pity them for the hatred that engulfs their minds. I just wish they wouldn’t ruin things for the rest of us.
“Anyone who saw even seconds of the footage and was not sickened by it must be a hollow husk of a human.”
This is the part that just straight up baffles me. The footage is there. It’s real. It’s filmed by Hamas themselves. It’s available and still people don’t believe what actually happened that day. If they would just watch it and believe I think they would have a better understanding of why Israel is not stopping this time. “Never Again” I think is really going to mean, “Never Again” and still the Hamas supporters wave those same flags the savages waved as they r*ped and murdered and often murdered while r*ping. It’s simply horrific and disgusting!
I just don’t understand it at all!
I know, right? I can’t believe they’ve not seen any of that horrifying footage, because their ‘protesting’ began in the immediate aftermath of those unprecedented Oct 7 attacks.
In the days after Oct 7 2023, posters of the kidnapped and missing placed around town were quickly ripped down or vandalized. What kind of person would do that?
Last year in the days leading up to Oct 7, some of those who were at this Bike Happy Hour obsessively and eagerly ramped up hosting various flag-waving rides about Gaza. They host so many throughout the year, and didn’t have the compassion or respect to hold off at that time. It seemed highly offensive, if not deliberately malicious.
I’ve already seen posters promoting an event next month on Oct 7 all about Gaza, with no mention whatsoever of what happened two years ago or the hostages that remain captive.
It’s vile and I don’t understand it either, Jake9.
People also might have a problem with letting Israel do ethnic cleansing and sending millions of refugees somewhere else as if Arab people are all interchangeable.
Just watch some of the 7OCT compilations and get back with me.
There is plenty more barbaric footage of what Israel has been doing to random Palestinian children for the last few years (and before), despite Israel’s attempts to silence it by assassinating journalists. And that’s ongoing, unlike October 7. Nothing anyone does can undo October 7, but there is a way to stop the next orders of magnitude worse massacre from happening to the innocent kids (and even the military aged men, I e. Innocent other people) living in Palestine.
Okay, where is some of this footage? Is it from Israeli sources? Hamas? Rumored?
“Arguing about whether that constitutes genocide is something best left to the courts.”
Why do that when it can be screamed on the internet and television by propagandists until so many just assume that it is true?
Also, if it has to be determined by the courts and relies on minutia of legalese, it really isn’t a genocide.
The population in Gaza in 2024 or early 2025 is not helpful. And, I think you know this, but when people discuss the ongoing genocide in Palestine, it describes the ongoing attempted genocide not a completed genocide.
So when do you think a genocide started? The population numbers have been going up continuously since they started counting.
You mention an ongoing attempted genocide, in your mind what would make that genocide complete?
I ask as there does not seem to be any commonality to what is a genocide, if there is one happening and what Hamas or Israel’s preferred end state is.
Making arguments about the precise definition of terms that best describe the dehumanization, slaughter and starvation of large numbers of innocent people is a characteristic of unsupported denial.
I think it qualifies as genocide, but I am not an expert. However, experts and other authoritative groups also defined Israel’s actions as a genocide.
For example, the International Association of Genocide Scholars, Amnesty International, B’Tselem, Physicians for Human Rights Israel, Human Rights Watch, the United Nations, Doctors Without Borders (MSF) and many others.
I understand that you believe there is a genocide against the Gazan people. I appreciate you taking the time to list organizations that agree with you as no one else has done that yet.
I disagree and believe there is a horrible war being fought between the Gazan’s and their allies and Israel, but it is not genocide. I have no doubt as to that.
My questions were for those that don’t have their own answers as you do to the question of whether it is genocide or not. When the word is thrown around so easily and with little care it makes me think that the concept of genocide is misunderstood and taken advantage of by propagandists. I was hoping for some introspection and further discussion, but only a few here seem to want that.
Genocide is absolutely not what the victim population does, such as reproducing. You look like you’re grasping at straws bringing up the growing population.
Grasping at straws?? Having large numbers killed so that there are less of a distinct population is the key aspect of genocide. What in the world do you think genocide is??
genocide (noun)
genocides (plural noun)
If the population is increasing than there is clearly not a “systematic killing of a large number of people.”
Also, I argue that the Gazans or not a particular national or ethnic group.
Jake, the point of genocide is to completely eradicate a people, whether based on ethnicity, religion, race, etc. I learned that in 5th grade based on what our government did to indigenous people here in South Dakota well before I was born.
You obviously missed my point. Genocide is not defined by the resistance of people targeted by genocide. In case you didn’t know, coyotes reproduce more when murdered by humans. That doesn’t mean they aren’t murdered.
Lastly, if you’re going to say Palestinians aren’t facing genocide because people in Gaza aren’t a whatever group, I’m going to assume you are selective in caring about human life. Sad, dude. All humans are precious, not just Israelis.
“Genocide is not defined by the resistance of people targeted by genocide. “
I agree with you. It’s defined by the amount of the population being killed, regardless of whether the population is resisting.
Using your example, coyotes are indeed being killed. Are they murdered? Is it cruel? I could see an argument made for that. Are they facing genocide? Absolutely not.
Are Gazans a distinct group? If Aliens wiped out all of California (or Alabama or wherever) would the United States have experienced genocide?
Genocide is a very specific term. Are the Gazans being massacred? Perhaps. Are they being murdered? Perhaps. Do we know how many have died? No. Do we know how many of those killed were soldiers? No.
Are they experiencing genocide? Absolutely not.
Committing genocide is a matter of intent, not results. The number killed does not define genocide. Also, have you considered plausible deniability? Israel has been very careful to give the appearance that it’s never aimed at genocide.
“Committing genocide is a matter of intent, not results. The number killed does not define genocide.“
If intent equates to genocide then Hamas is guilty of genocide many times over as well as the Arab nations that invaded Israel 3 separate times.
I can’t agree with the idea that a horrible crime against humanity happens simply because of intent as it’s not provable. If intent were all that’s needed then Hamas’ Covenant offers all the evidence of their intent to kill all the Jews (and all the Israelis), but intent isnt enough.
Where do you find evidence of Israel’s intent to commit genocide?
You just literally described exactly what we can all see happening right now in Gaza. This is exactly, precisely what is happening.
And your facts are just wrong anyway. Their population is not growing. I’m going to need a citation on that.
I already provided that. I know you don’t actually read much of what I write so you’ll just have to google “Palestinian population growth” and you’l find it.
Links about the population growth before the genocide escalated are not very convincing.
Fair enough. I stand corrected. You do read them.
Starting on the Israeli counter attack after 7OCT the Gazan population did start to decrease. I say we don’t know by how much because…
1) Hamas Health Authority lies and has been caught lying. The Al-Ahli hospital rocket attack is a great example. When it happened the Health authority said around 900 people were killed. Then in a few hours said 500. Then I’m the morning when everyone could see the hospital wasn’t even hit that 5-10 people were killed.
2) No independent verification of any of the claims.
3) Of those killed, the Health Authority does not separate them into any category. No way to know how many are soldiers being killed versus civilians being killed. .
4) I believe the latest numbers are 63000 claimed dead out of a population of 5.5 million?
So just over 1% of the population.
5) I dont know how many babies have been born since 7OCT.
6) The US killed (roughly) 4% of the Iraq population while we were there, not counting the toxic pollution that will continue to kill for a long time.
7) The Jews lost 57% of their population in WW2.
Genocide is a numbers game and the Gazans aren’t anywhere near genocide.
Horrible war? Yes.
JM, is this comment floating around the spam file? There was some math involved, nothing negative and I made the mistake of trying an “edit”.
Yes it was. Thanks for letting me know. I’ve pushed it through.
Thank you! I didn’t know if I could replicate it and John and I were/are having a great discussion.
Why do they have to look beyond Oct. 7th? A full-on invasion by Hamas. Thousands of casualties. All hell breaking loose and ballistic missiles raining down from the sky across Israel. That is PLENTY of justification for a robust military response by Israel.
No justification for a “genocide”, but it isn’t a genocide, as stated above, so not relevant to the conversation.
Hi,
I use the word genocide on my own because I believe it’s the proper term to describe what Israel is doing.
I remember October 7th. I am an American who lives halfway around the world from what happened that day. I’m not Jewish or Palestinian and really don’t know the entirety of what has gone on between the two groups over the decades (who does?). I do remember thinking that all hell was about to break loose for ordinary Palestinians. I am not at all surprised at the ferocity and duration of Israel’s response to October 7th. What impresses me is how surprised Palestinians seem to be at what is being done to them. What were THEY thinking on that day? Maybe it was something along the lines of ‘This is a 1st step towards a glorious victory over the Jews’ or ‘Finally, we will have peace in our world’ IDK. I do think that the immediate enemies of the peoples of that region are both Hamas and the Hasidic/Settlers. Both of these groups must be delighted at the carnage.
I suggest everyone learn more about the history of the region dating all the way back to 2000-1000 BCE. It’s fascinating. Brief overview here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel
I’ve heard some people more knowledgeable about the Middle East than I, that powerful forces persuaded Hamas to do the October attack because those forces knew it would be a suicide mission that would leave a political power vacuum once Hamas was destroyed and others would step into their place.
Again, just a theory.
A new entry in the list of most-commented-on BP posts of all time!
Shutting down what would have been an interesting and locally relevant conversation because of something Mayor Wilson has absolutely zero impact on is inane, self destructive, bullying behavior.
Since it is topical, a really great podcast with well though out perspective on Israel / Zionism is the “Bad Hasbara” podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bad-hasbara-the-worlds-most-moral-podcast/id1721813926
It’s hosted by two people who happen to be Jewish (not that this is needed to have a clear view of the situation), and they talk about the various Hasbara (propaganda) Israel puts out, misinformation, and ways they try to muddy the water. Also music and humor. I recommend it to anyone who has heard this is a complicated question, yet wonder why that doesn’t jive well with your own moral compass.