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Springwater path users feel threatened by campers, police say their hands are tied

Posted by on January 14th, 2016 at 2:17 pm

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Springwater path near SE 82nd.
(Photo: Mark Mollenkopf)

Neighborhood advocates and residents say conditions on the Springwater Corridor path near its intersection of SE 82nd have reached a boiling point. Things have gotten so bad that local residents have dubbed it the “Avenue of Terror.” At issue is the behavior of people who live in tents and under tarps adjacent to the path and the impact their presence is having on users of the path and the surrounding community.

In recent weeks we’ve heard from several readers with concerns about the situation and from a Portland Police Bureau officer who says there’s not enough officers to deal with the issue and a federal court decision has constrained their enforcement power.

“There is a major public health issue brewing here.”

Mark Mollenkopf rides through this area of the Springwater on his daily ride to work. He says he’s counted up to 20 tents and has seen “chop shop activities,” drug use, and a lot of other illegal behaviors.

In a December 18th email to BikePortland (that was also sent to the Portland Bike Theft Task Force, KATU News, and the City of Portland) Mollenkopf wrote, “There is a major public health issue brewing here.” He said the all the trash, broken glass, and drug paraphenalia he often sees strewn on the path is “really getting out of hand.”

But it’s the fear and intimidation Mollenkopf has feels while using the path that he’s most concerned about. He recounted a time when five people were blocking the path as he attempted to ride by. “As I got about 20 feet from them they started telling me to turn around and go somewhere else, I asked that they move aside so I can pass and one of them (who I saw again this morning) yells, ‘Are you kidding? Get the fuck out of here!'”

A week later Mollenkopf said two men watched him as he rode by and one of them yelled, “Nice bike, hope it doesn’t get stolen!”

Mollenkopf is worried that if the situation continues someone will end up getting hurt. “It adds up to a bad environment and I see kids riding to and from school on this section of the MUP which concerns me as well,” he wrote, “What are they being exposed to?”

“This is the one area I leave after dark.”

Terry Dublinski-Milton is a neighborhood activist and board member of the Southeast Uplift Neighborhood Association (we profiled him back in June). The topic of “the situation on the Springwater corridor” was talked about at length during their board meeting meeting this week. He said people are concerned about how the camps are impacting a nearby creek and environmental restoration area that volunteers have spent 20 years working to restore.

“There has been property damage, physical threats against people, drug dealing, prostitution under the bridges, encroachment that closes off the trail.”

“Though there has always been issues with the houseless camping here, the situation is at a boiling point,” he shared with us via email this morning. “There has been property damage, physical threats against people, drug dealing, prostitution under the bridges, encroachment that closes off the trail.”

Dublinksi-Milton says local residents now call the stretch of the Springwater path between SE Luther and 92nd Avenue, “The Avenue of Terror.”

Even though he considers himself a very strong and confident rider who will roll through any part of the city, Dublinski-Milton says because of recent experiences, “This is the one area I leave after dark.”

“Aggressive, territorial behavior from campers is increasing.”

Sellwood resident Chris DiStefano rode his bike on the Springwater several times during the Christmas holiday. After riding through areas of the path full of tents and trash, he shared his experience via a Facebook post on December 28th. “Trash and physical encroachment on the trail are bad enough,” he wrote. “But now aggressive, territorial behavior from campers is increasing and we all stand to lose a major recreational and transportation corridor.”

DiStefano says he was harrassed several times during the holidays and he’s convinced that broken glass he sees on the path is, “placed there intentionally to discourage future bicycle traffic.”

He wants Metro and the City of Portland to prioritize the issue. “The city responded immediately to downed trees on the trail last week and I appreciate the fast work there. This is a much more complex issue, I know, but one we need to address right away.”

“Enforcement of the ordinances under those circumstances criminalizes the status of being homeless and violates the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution.”

If you’ve read BikePortland over the years, you’ll know this situation isn’t new. “Security concerns and druge use along Springwater Corridor give some riders pause,” we reported in 2011. Then in August 2012 we shared a series of stories about people who had been physically assaulted and harassed while using the Springwater.

In 2014 we reported about a large encampment that had sprung up further west under the Ross Island Bridge and later that year we shared photos of what one reader claimed to be a brazen stolen bike chop-shop operation around SE 92nd.

If the issue is so well-documented and has existed for so long, why isn’t more being done about it?

There are two answers to that question: One is nothing new, the other is.

“This law… prohibits law enforcement from conducting routine investigative activity on a person based on their homeless status.”

Portland Police Officer Ryan Mele responded to Mark Mollenkopf’s concerns. Mele, an officer on the East Precinct Neighborhood Response Team, told Mollenkopf there were two very good reasons that police have not taken more aggressive action on this issue. The PPB’s current staffing shortage means neighborhood officers like Mele are being pulled away from livability issues and toward patrols in other areas.

Mele also pointed out a recent federal court decision and a state law that went into effect January 1st that has influenced Portland’s enforcement practices.

Mele says the PPB is using a brief filed last August by a district court judge in Idaho (1:09-cv-540-REB) who said that enforcing certain laws on people who live outside, when there is not adequate indoor housing available, would be unconstitutional. Here’s the relevant excerpt from the court:

“If the Court finds that it is impossible for homeless individuals to secure shelter space on some nights because no beds are available, no shelter meets their disability needs, or they have exceeded the maximum stay limitations, then the Court should also find that enforcement of the ordinances under those circumstances criminalizes the status of being homeless and violates the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution.”

This past legislative session Oregon Governor Kate Brown strengthened that ruling when she signed House Bill 2002 into law. That law was lobbied for by civil rights activists who want to end police profiling based solely on someone’s age, ethnicity, gender, religion, and so on. That list of “real or perceived factors of the individual” that cannot be targeted also includes homelessnes.

If someone living outside along the Springwater corridor is simply doing things that are “inevitably connected to their homeless status,” the police say they can’t investigate it.

Officer Mele says that new law, combined with the Idaho court ruling, has put law enforcement on eggshells. “The City Attorney has instructed us that it is the State’s intent to extend additional rights and protection to homeless people and that the United States Department of Justice is actively watching for activity that appears to be punitive toward homeless people,” Mele wrote in an email to Mollenkopf regarding the Springwater situation on December 21st.

While law enforcement practices are in flux, neighborhood residents are starting to organize. Dublinski-Milton with Southeast Uplift says businesses, other neighborhood associations and residents are forming a new group to do something about “the behaviors that are impacting the whole region.”

“There have been repeated attempts to get the city to act with no avail,” he shared. “So they are hoping to put pressure on for a coordinated response.”

— Jonathan Maus, (503) 706-8804 – jonathan@bikeportland.org

NOTE: On Sunday 1/17 at 4:39 pm I changed the headline. It used to be, “Springwater path’s ‘Avenue of Terror’ persists, but police hands are tied”. I made the change after thinking about it more and hearing from concerns in the comments that BikePortland endorsed the “terror” characterization. I think the new headline is more accurate and clear. – Jonathan

NOTE: We love your comments and work hard to ensure they are productive, considerate, and welcoming of all perspectives. Disagreements are encouraged, but only if done with tact and respect. If you see a mean or inappropriate comment, please contact us and we'll take a look at it right away. Also, if you comment frequently, please consider holding your thoughts so that others can step forward. Thank you — Jonathan

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mw
Guest
mw

Isn’t citing this new law a cop out? I can see how it would cover things like camping and littering, but how is harassment, assult, prostitution, etc. “inevitably connected to their homeless status”?

q
Guest
q

It seems like the portland pd has interpreted this to mean that laws do not apply to the homeless, which is of course absurd.

Chris I
Guest
Chris I

It doesn’t help when you have newspapers like the Mercury who think the homeless can do no wrong, and the cops can do no right.

This is a transportation corridor, and needs to be recognized as such. The police should have full authority to conduct sweeps on a regular basis. All non-plant objects found within 25ft of the pathway will be disposed of. Conduct the sweeps weekly until the problem goes away. Continue conducting sweeps once per month on an ongoing basis.

This problem is happening because they are allowed to camp here. Once they are allowed, things become territorial. They need to understand that this is a no-camping area.

Spiffy
Subscriber

“They need to understand that this is a no-camping area.”

except that it is a camping area per the new laws…

Matt- Bike Milwaukie
Guest

Only if they attempt to get housing… yet out around 92nd there are no homeless shelters (at least that I know of), so how can someone camping claim that they tried to “secure shelter space on some nights” if there are no shelters within close proximity to where they are squatting?

We’ve lead a few of our rides out this way in the past but won’t be taking groups near here until this gets cleared up.

was carless
Guest
was carless

I’m starting to think that the Springwater is part of the city’s Homeless Strategy.

J. Conner
Guest
J. Conner

I agree. It should not be considered a violation of their civil rights to make this corridor a no camping area. There are other spots they can use that do not have regular daily traffic by the public citizenry.

VA
Guest
VA

My husband called police non-emergency to report what appeared to be a homeless man swinging a bat while walking along the sidewalk. He was told by the officer the person wasn’t breaking the law and even if he was breaking the law, instructions from the mayor’s office are “Hands off Homeless.” So disappointing.

eli bishop
Guest
eli bishop

I was threatened by a guy throwing knives in that area. I called the police but because they guy biked away, they told me to call back if I saw him again.

Ralph
Guest
Ralph

The new law says precisely that: laws do not apply to the homeless. Enjoy living in Oregon.

lop
Guest
lop

Enforcing that stuff generally only happens indirectly. Say by clearing out homeless encampments. So unless there is somewhere else to send them…

Cora Potter
Guest
Cora Potter

Well, technically they could be sent to jail if they have stolen goods or commit assault or are engaged in sex trafficking. But, then our jails are overcrowded too. Maybe now that marijuana offenses aren’t clogging them up we’ll have more space?

puddlejumper
Guest
puddlejumper

The inevitable result of liberal policies. The cops have had their hands tied by everyone from Eric Holder’s Dept of Justice to the Mayor’s Office. No wonder morale is so low and the PPB can’t find qualified candidates.

Bud Feuless
Guest
Bud Feuless

At issue is the Eight Amendment. What is being said here is that we can not sweep or otherwise harass someone based solely on a homeless or housing status that they can not control. If someone breaks a law, whether criminal threatening, drug use, prostitution or even obstruction of a pedestrian right-of-way, you can still report it and PPB must then investigate and respond. What DoJ and others are asking us to minimize is some of the action around the Sweeps, which are mainly driven by the Portland Business Alliance and Portland Chamber of Commerce and City Hall (not PPB). These sweeps have evicted people and confiscated their belongings for no other reason than that they are homeless. You really could not ask for a more 19th century approach. Last year, an old man died of exposure after losing everything in a sweep. Keep in mind that a lot of these folk have lost their ID and can not recover items placed in storage.

Myself, I ride this part of the trail almost daily. Yes, I’ve seen the behaviors described, though I’ve found that using my bell well ahead of a group often gets them to be more friendly about letting me through. PPB is patrolling using ATV’s (I know, I’ve had to get out of their way pretty often). What concerns me MUCH more is the results of sweeps I’ve seen recently conducted by ODFW (state parks). I have seen a line of evictees simply moving their stuff using shopping carts to a new location, in a line that looks like a refugee march. What’s really disturbing though is that these have seemed now to be not the usual single male meth-heads we used to see, but families with kids and especially women alone. Forcing women out of an established camp in that way exposes them to a lot of danger.

The point is not that we should not address this problem, but that we should not address it with brutality and a lack of humanity.

RH
Guest
RH

Wow…based on this new law, this is always going to be a problem for a long time as we won’t have enough shelter space in this region for at least 5+ years. The old Portland as we used to know it is slowly decaying 🙁

CR
Guest
CR

There would be fewer people to shelter if we weren’t so accommodating.

dan
Guest
dan

We all accept induced demand for motor vehicle traffic: more roads=more cars. Isn’t the homeless situation the same way? More shelters and services=more homeless? The lesson from car traffic is that you can never build enough roads. Are there any parallels that apply here?

Wendy
Guest
Wendy

there is no correlation between the 2. there are thousands of homeless in the metro area. Has anyone considered approachin the people living there and asking for their help?

Oliver
Guest
Oliver

Homelessness is not the result of local or regional government policy. It is a by-product of the economic system we’ve embraced. One that creates economic losers as requirement for it to function. If we’ve decided that capitalism does indeed create the most good for the most people (debatable) then we must accept the fact that a certain number of people are going to fail, and we have a responsibility to deal with them.

I’m tired of the >>redacted<< homeless. I'm sick of the garbage, I'm sick of the property crimes, I'm sick of the feces, I'm sick of the increasing threats of violence. I want these issues dealt with.

But I'm just as fed up with the continued assertion by some people that the amount of people sleeping in the woods has anything to do with local attempts to get people off the streets or provide them with some level of basic physical or mental health care.

Josh Chernoff
Guest
Josh Chernoff

If the police say they them selfs they can’t/wont do anything about this, then its safe to say nothing short of committing a crime your self will solve this.

Spiffy
Subscriber

ridin’ dirty…

Pete
Guest
Pete

Call Curtis Sliwa – he loves publicity.

Spenzor
Guest
Spenzor

Just be homeless when you commit the crime and you’ll be fine!

Todd Hudson
Guest
Todd Hudson

This city is comically dysfunctional.

q`Tzal
Guest
q`Tzal

Then this problem can only be solved by Unicycle Bagpiper Vader!

Adam
Subscriber

The new law regarding profiling homeless people is a really good thing. Too often, people forced to sleep outside are arrested and pushed though a dizzying amount of legal battles that they can’t afford. Throwing these people in jail and issuing expensive tickets they have no hope of paying is not at all productive to society.

However, I question the decision by PPB that assaulting trail users is “inevitably connected to their homeless status”.

Allan
Guest
Allan

this

Cora Potter
Guest
Cora Potter

… or stealing from nearby housed people, or receiving stolen goods for the purpose of trafficking in stolen goods or aiding in the trafficking of stolen goods….and honestly, the littering and other livability issues aren’t “inevitable”. They can walk to a god damn trash can…and in many cases there is one within a quarter mile.

The new law makes sense for things like drinking on the street and maybe the occasional need to urinate or defecate when the urgency exceeds the ability to find an appropriate facility.

estherc
Guest
estherc

yes, it actually demeans the law abiding homeless.

Peter R
Guest

What part of camping on public property is “law abiding”?

Adam
Subscriber

The new law that states you can’t just go rounding up homeless people just for being homeless?

Terry
Guest
Terry

I ride this almost everyday, and at night when I get off from working at a bike shop, sometimes at 9pm, if you want confrontation just have a headlight over 100 lumens, zombie’s hate the light

Spiffy
Subscriber

yes, it’s my experience that they will yell at you if you have a decent light…

eli bishop
Guest
eli bishop

I’ll yell at you if you have a bright light and it’s pointed at my eyes on the Springwater. 🙂

Spiffy
Subscriber

when you’re laying on the ground all lights are pointed at your eyes…

J_R
Guest
J_R

I’ve had the same experience riding the Springwater corridor. I’ll ride it only during daylight hours. Even then, a group clustered by the path will cause me to turn around.

We prohibited our kids from riding it to school even though in many ways it was an ideal route.

If the cops can’t do anything, we’ve effectively abandoned the multi-use path.

I agree that homeless status should not used for profiling, but it shouldn’t be a valid excuse for law enforcement personnel turning a blind eye toward intimidating, threatening behavior and a host of other crimes.

We need some undercover cops, DAs, and Portland commissioners to ride the corridor every once in a while to let them experience this first hand.

Allan
Guest
Allan

With enforcement like this why are we advocating for more MUPs? Perhaps a solution would be to allow construction near these areas so that we have some ‘eyes on the street’ Not necessarily front doors

Adam
Subscriber

Another reason why protected bike lanes along the street are better than secluded bike paths though the woods.

Granpa
Guest
Granpa

Strongly disagree. Accepting aggressive criminal behavior and blaming it on the bike path is defeatism. Take a ride on the MUP between Lewis & Clark and State St. Ride Banks/Vernonia and tell me that you would rather be riding behind a concrete jersey barrier down Powell.

q`Tzal
Guest
q`Tzal

And yet we will only get consistent law enforcement where there are lots of users.
Public streets with automotive traffic have orders of magnitude more users than MUPs buried in wooded areas.

A path in an idyllic natural setting is nicer until its lack of law enforcement encourages criminal activity. There isn’t enough broad public outcry to get the resources for consistent policing here so it becomes unsafe for NON-automobile reasons.

Still unsafe, still potentially fatal; bicycle and jogger traffic is pushed out to neighboring streets in to areas not expecting such traffic.

The hazard is pushed along out of sight and out of mind.

Adam
Subscriber

That’s a straw man and not at all what I said. Public roads are safer by means of having more users and more eyes on the street. Secluded paths along the woods are by definition more hidden from public view, which invites people that are purposely trying to hide from public view. They also see less use for transportation because their secluded nature makes them feel more dangerous. Yes, this can be solved with better police presence, but it’s hard to argue that they are equally as safe – especially at night.

axoplasm
Subscriber

I used to live adjacent to that Tryon SP path. There are campers in that forest but not many and they are VERY quiet neighbors. They mostly stay out of the SP which has its own rangers. The biggest difference compared to Springwater isnt “eyes on the path” — it runs through the damn forest and gets a fraction of the traffic, there are zero eyes on it 90% of the time — it’s the neighborhoods on the other side of the trees.

If you call the cops in SW Portland for the most trivial thing — way less than swinging baseball bats — they show up within an hour or so. Probably inside of than 10min in LO or Dunthorpe.

This is Amanda Fritz’ home quadrant. It was mine, too, for more than a dozen years. So I speak from experience: It’s easy up there among the trees to take an abstract stance on complicated things like crime and homelessness

Paul Z
Guest
Paul Z

I rode the Boise River MUP last fall, and there was a very visible presence of police officers on bicycles. Not a tent, tarp, or shopping cart in sight. There was also “zero” graffiti along the trail. Portland is getting “trashed”.

Random
Guest
Random

“I rode the Boise River MUP last fall, and there was a very visible presence of police officers on bicycles.”

Yeah, but that was hick Boise.

Here in progressive Portland, we are incapable of keeping our MUPs safe for actual users of the MUP.

Mike Reams
Guest
Mike Reams

I walked it last summer and these were the big takeaways for me. I saw police on bikes patrolling the path and, even in some industrial areas (along a gravel/concrete yard), the path was clean and felt totally safe.

Alan 1.0
Subscriber

I would be interested in how things have changed along the Boise River Greenbelt since Bell v. Boise (1:09-cv-540-REB).

J. Conner
Guest
J. Conner

Good idea! Undercover cops. Preferably ones who are made up to look vulnerable in some way.

rachel b
Guest
rachel b

Portland of now frequently reminds me of an ineffectual and cowed parent repeating “Stop that, Timmy…’kay? Stop that right now! ‘Kay? I really mean it, Timmy! Stop it! ‘Kay?…” while Timmy burns the house down.

Adam
Subscriber

We also need to be putting pressure not just on PPB, but on Commissioner Amanda Fritz, who historically has refused to address the homeless encampment issues in our parks.

Todd Hudson
Guest
Todd Hudson

Putting pressure on any commissioner is pretty much tilting at windmills. Unfortunately, it requires significant tragedy (or Rose Festival) for the city to take action – much like when cyclists get mamed by motorists. Someone using the Springwater will eventually get attacked or worse; they will lawyer up and the city will have to defend its lack of action. They’ll spend a few weeks pretending to care about the area, and then go right back to ignoring it.

Like Waterfront Park and the Esplanade, avoid the Springwater after dark. There’s nothing we can do about it.

Adam
Subscriber

Another reason we need to move away from the commissioner-based system and to a ward-based system, where elected Alders have a direct responsibility to the neighborhood that they represent.

Todd Hudson
Guest
Todd Hudson

That is also a pretty quixotic hope – there have been half a dozen ballot initiatives to do just that, and they have all failed by a wide margin.

J_R
Guest
J_R

The problem is the commission form of government, not the geographical assignment of representatives. With the commission form of government, each commissioner has his/her own bureaus and the tendency is to treat them as his/her little fiefdom. This results in a system of “keep your hands off my bureau and I’ll keep mine off yours.” If the elected officials were just focused on city-wide policy, some of this ineptitude, corruption, and waste might go away.

davemess
Guest
davemess

Yes and no. The lack of a regional form of government is a big deal (especially if you live in an area of town that doesn’t have any commissioners from anywhere near by (like half the city).

bjorn
Guest
bjorn

Amanda loves camping as long as it isn’t near her house, she lives in a much nicer zip code so she won’t be doing anything about this anytime soon.

jeff
Guest
jeff

I’ve tried to contact her twice about it. I’ve gotten canned email responses and voice mails. Fritz is worthless in this regard.

there’s a known shortage of Police officers in PDX for an ever increasing population of…well…everyone. PPD needs to expand…and quickly to address a lot of the criminal activity in town recently.

Middle of the Road guy
Guest
Middle of the Road guy

Maybe all the people on this blog who complain about the police can sign up and change how PPD does things.

Todd Boulanger
Guest
Todd Boulanger

The PPB and the CoP legal folks are also likely taking a conservative ‘wait and see approach’ as to any developing case law and other legal “opinions” after the Idaho stuff. (And most legal staff have been on holiday etc…so not a lot of time to sit and think about new things.)

Terry D-M
Guest
Terry D-M

A a meeting today of all seven coalition leaders, the executive director of SE Uplift shared these reported stories about this issue with Amanda Fritz, as she heads the office of neighborhood involvement. I followed with stressing that this situation is very different than other campsites throughout the city. I have never felt intimidated by any of them, but this situation is fundamentally different. Commissioner Fritz says she will follow up with Mayor Hales. I think he knows I am not easily intimidated….so hopefully, these stories may have some effect.

davemess
Guest
davemess

There is a reason that many people along the Springwater are there. They want to be a little secluded. It shouldn’t be surprising at all that they are territorial out here.

Thanks for your work on this Terry.

rdat
Guest
rdat

I rode springwater last weekend for the first time in about a year and I couldn’t believe what I saw (including human excrement on the pathway). Something has to be done. Perhaps we should provide the campers with free transportation to Kate Brown’s neighborhood so she can enjoy them exercising their rights every time she walks out her front door.

I don’t think people should be picked on because they’re homeless but, municipalities have to have the tools necessary to secure the rights of everyone to use public facilities and I can see why people feel their right to use the trail is infringed upon by presence and actions of the campers.

davemess
Guest
davemess

Yes there is a spot (just east of 122nd) that continually has human poop on the path. So aggrevating. Why?!?!?!?!

doug B
Guest
doug B

I came across this many times this fall as well. Finally saw the culprit- an elderly man jogging. He stopped mid jog, did his business, then went north up 122nd. Was gone by the time I got there. Crazy

Matt
Guest
Matt

I’ve been wondering about that chronic turd-dropper. I must have seen hundreds of his turds in that block.

Now that I know it’s a jogger (and the homeless don’t jog, generally speaking), I have half a mind to stake it out, follow him home, and publish his address so we can all take turns crapping on his doorstep.

davemess
Guest
davemess

Wow, that’s even more crazy than I thought! I mean it’s a trail that pretty much exclusively goes through the woods! You have so many better options for an emergency number 2.

Todd Boulanger
Guest
Todd Boulanger

The one thing that is disturbing about this scenario: if there was an urban roadway or suburban highway where ‘gangs’ of individuals (say cyclists) were yelling threats at drivers, blockading motor vehicle passage, putting tire puncturing devices on the roadway I would expect that PPB, DoT, OSP etc. would be down there to end the problem very quickly and not call it a “livability issue”.

Todd Boulanger
Guest
Todd Boulanger

So back to the “livability issue”…the Spring Water MUP should be considered a “regional bikeway of significance”…a highway of sorts where there are no easy alternative routes. The critical security and safety problem there is that its not like a rider or walker can walk one block over to avoid a threatening situation like in the downtown. If you are 20 feet away from a group you are pretty much trapped other than reversing course and hope you can [drop your bike] to outrun them or swim for it.

Middle of the Road guy
Guest
Middle of the Road guy

This is about the homeless people on the path who are threatening others.
Don’t try to turn this around and make a fiction about how cyclists are persecuted.

reader
Guest
reader

I am sure the situation will improve when summer returns.

canuck
Guest
canuck

Yup, because nice weather really turns people off living outside.

reader
Guest
reader

My point exactly. 🙂

rachel b
Guest
rachel b

🙂

Spiffy
Subscriber

yep, longer days means less commuting in the dark and warmer weather usually makes for happier campers…

Chris I
Guest
Chris I

Does anyone carry a weapon or mace when traveling this section?

Granpa
Guest
Granpa

**Deleted this comment because it described a weapon. I don’t feel comfortable when people trade info about weapons that could harm other people. Please contact me if you want to discuss my moderation decisions further jonathan@bikeportland.org**

ahpook
Subscriber

perhaps i’m being dense but i don’t understand what this would do or how you would use it.

Granpa
Guest
Granpa

**Comment deleted. Please don’t discuss weapons here. Thank you. If you have questions/concerns about my moderation decisions please get in touch via jonathan@bikeportland.org. Thanks. — Jonathan Maus**

Rob Chapman
Guest
Rob Chapman

I haven’t traveled the Springwater in a while but I do live in a neighborhood with a city sanctioned favela.

I carry a phone, o/c spray, knife and a handgun when I go about my business. If I have my backpack I have 1st aid supplies as well.

I keep two fire extinguishers at home also.

Don’t want to use any of them.

We are responsible for our own safety.

Paul Z
Guest
Paul Z

I would if I did. Damn straight!

Travis
Guest
Travis

**Comment deleted. Please don’t discuss using weapons against other people here. Thank you. If you have questions/concerns about my moderation decisions please get in touch via jonathan@bikeportland.org. Thanks. — Jonathan Maus**

was carless
Guest
was carless

After what I experienced last week, I wouldn’t dare go down the Springwater without a full platoon of Marines as an escort. And a squadron of Apache gunships.

John Liu
Guest
John Liu

I have, on occasion, ridden with a pistol in my jersey pocket. But they are heavy, and not very aero. Campagnolo needs to come out with a carbon fiber and titanium cycling pistol. Electric, and 12 speed, of course.

Seriously, I don’t carry just because I’m going to ride the Springwater. But I wouldn’t ride there alone if I were a woman. And even as a 190 lb man who might or might not have a pistol in his jersey pocket, I don’t ride it alone after dark.

Seriously folks. Sooner or later, a jogger, cyclist, or walker will be raped or beaten on this MUP. The place is attracting too many dangerous and disturbed people – yes, along with unfortunate and harmless people who just have no place to go – and it is just a matter of time.

Todd Boulanger
Guest
Todd Boulanger

I suggest that bike commuters needing to use the Springwater MUP form a ‘biking school bus’ or ‘bike-pool’ wagon train to gather enough numbers to safely travel through the dangerous sections. Perhaps someone can find a nice dry place to sit and wait on either end while the group forms every 10 minutes and advertise it.

Patrick
Guest
Patrick

This is a good idea, if we abandon the path it will just get worse.

J_R
Guest
J_R

It’s pretty damn discouraging when adult cyclists are afraid to ride on MUPs in public parks and have to resort to arranging convoys to feel safe in city and regional parks.

Proof positive that cyclists are second class citizens when police won’t provide resources to make parks safe.

Platinum, right?

Middle of the Road guy
Guest
Middle of the Road guy

No. You are simply one of several impacted groups.

Andrew Shaw-Kitch
Guest

It is discouraging indeed, but coming together at a community to address a complicated is, I would argue, an adult thing to do. The lack of affordable housing in this city is at unprecedented epidemic levels, necessitating empathy and even perhaps the slight modification of behavior.

Andrew Shaw-Kitch
Guest

*as a community

Andrew Shaw-Kitch
Guest

I think this is an amazing idea. There is obviously a lot of community engagement on this issue, and I think creating greater use in a way that makes users feel safe is much more productive than engaging in generalizations based on feelings (“avenue of terror”) and stereotypes.

The logistics of this are easier than living outside in winter.

GGG
Guest
GGG

I like the idea, but if I rode with a bunch of folks like myself it’d turn into pace line for sure. Bad juju!

Jennifer Dynes
Guest
Jennifer Dynes

Thank you, Jonathan. Your advocacy is so important.

soren
Subscriber

“If the Court finds that it is impossible for homeless individuals to secure shelter space on some nights because no beds are available, no shelter meets their disability needs, or they have exceeded the maximum stay limitations”

It seems to me that this is an issue that the voting public could easily solve by agreeing to a very modest increase in taxes. Kudos to the courts and DOJ for their civil rights efforts!

bjorn
Guest
bjorn

You assume that the same people who think it is a great idea to threaten strangers on the path will be able to play nice in a shelter situation. Seems doubtful that shelter space would get a lot of these people especially the real problem ones off the path especially if they aren’t allowed to drink and shoot up at the shelter and that usually isn’t how shelters work.

Alan 1.0
Subscriber

That aspect of shelters is changing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_First

Josh Chernoff
Guest
Josh Chernoff

A few people think that I’m a little paranoid but I have a small bottle of pepper spray that I got from fred meyers for $14 that I take with me everywhere. I prefer this method of self defense vs buying a weapon and possible killing someone. That and it is a great tool for dog attacks which you would be shocked how often that happens. Its cheap, non lethal and so long as the police and city don’t have your back you better have a plan B.

canuck
Guest
canuck

“I prefer this method of self defense vs buying a weapon and possible killing someone”

But you did buy a weapon. One that could be lethal if used against someone with a compromised respiratory system. Lots of COPD and other issues amongst the homeless.

Josh Chernoff
Guest
Josh Chernoff

If you have a compromised respiratory system I’d bet money your probably not assaulting people or deserver a face full of pepper spray.

Patrick
Guest
Patrick

You have a natural right to defend yourself.

Josh Chernoff
Guest
Josh Chernoff

Hey chillax buddy its Non GMO pepper spray.

canuck
Guest
canuck

A compromised respiratory system from smoking and living in the elements over years. It doesn’t mean you are bed ridden, you can be just as belligerent and a hazard with emphysema as someone without.

dan
Guest
dan

So…if attacked by a Springwater camper, your advice would be to wait for him to get tired of hitting/stabbing you and then ride away?

canuck
Guest
canuck

Not my point at all. My point being the OP made a ridiculous statement about not buying a weapon because weapons are lethal.

Where in fact he did buy a weapon and one that can be lethal if you don’t know the state of health of the person you use it on.

https://www.rt.com/usa/death-pepper-yarborough-nypd/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/police-release-footage-of-man-who-died-after-being-pepper-sprayed_us_55a79eafe4b0896514d0609e

Faolan
Guest
Faolan

His point is that those weapons he was referring to are intended to be lethal. It is debatable whether or not pepper spray can be defined as a weapon. For certain, its intended use does not include lethality. If he uses it on someone and they die through complications of their own health that he is not responsible for then he can legitimately assuage his guilt over their death. Its a very reasonable viewpoint.

rdat
Guest
rdat

We should invite the armed militants from their stronghold in Eastern Oregon to reclaim the land for the use of the People.

Champs
Guest
Champs

In my after-dark experience, you can be (rightfully) sketched out on pretty much any off-street trail in the city. The real difference is that the Springwater doesn’t much care about the time of day.

It’s not like this everywhere.

Tim
Guest
Tim

I ride a very dark path through a park nearly every winter night and have for 10 years. Never seen any sketchy behavior. Maybe in other parts of the metro area, laws are enforced.

Champs
Guest
Champs

I take it you’re not riding the Esplanade or I-205.

Spiffy
Subscriber

put very bright lights along the entire path… they hate well lit areas…

Matt- Bike Milwaukie
Guest

And cut back all the vegetation within a certain distance of the path so that there is a very clear line of sight.

eli bishop
Guest
eli bishop

It’s not the lights, it’s the camping. It’s lovely to not have bright lights everywhere, actually.

Eric
Guest
Eric

I guess it is going to take an “incident” to get some law enforcement action in this area of the Springwater. Who wants to volunteer to be the sacrificial victim?
5 years ago I remember seeing a rope across the trail in that area near a few motley looking fellows. I swear they were waiting for a victim on a bike to pull the rope and clothesline the rider. I am a burly looking large male, so they must have passed on me.

I stopped riding that section of the trail a couple years ago. I cut the corner and ride Johnson Creek Blvd all the way to 205 before jumping on the 205 trail southbound. I will take car traffic over territorial homeless psychos any day.

Get some balls PPB, sweep that area already.

jeff
Guest
jeff

Nothing happened after the esplanade attack on two riders a year ago.

Maybe if they start harassing cars we’ll see some change.

Jessica
Guest
Jessica

There have been incidents. It has not changed a thing.

Bald One
Guest
Bald One

I agree that the section of SWC MUP near 82nd is especially bad, but let’s not forget the state of the Vera Katz EE MUP. EE has a few more regular users that help push the illegal activity to the shadows, but it is just as rife with violence and drug use. I will not ride bikes with my kids along the East waterfront. And, the new Overlook / Greeley MUP connector (N-bound Greeley N of Interstate) is now impassable at times due to the new camp there, not to mention the growing junk pile of cars that are parked in the bike lane along Greeley – that’s dangerous as you have to take the lane with 50+mph trucks and cars speeding along.

Matt
Guest
Matt

Send in the drones…

Eric Leifsdad
Guest
Eric Leifsdad

Maybe just ones with lights and cameras would do it.

q`Tzal
Guest
q`Tzal

Send in the skunks.

B. Carfree
Guest
B. Carfree

Don’t bother, they’re here.

Spiffy
Subscriber

because houseless people are afraid to smell bad?

q`Tzal
Guest
q`Tzal

Have you ever BEEN on the “business end” of a skunk?
It’s like saying “don’t worry about hearing protection, the blasting crew is using quiet dynamite”.

El Biciclero
Guest
El Biciclero

No need for drones. Just open it up to motor traffic and set the speed limit at 40 MPH. That will clear out any people of any kind.

Buzz
Guest
Buzz

This is what the people who fight rails to trails projects fear the most. If it is allowed to continue unabated it will only get worse. These campers have to be trespassing on somebody’s property, post it and arrest them.

rick
Guest
rick

Do the exact things happen on the THPRD Westside Trail?

bjorn
Guest
bjorn

Yep allowing this kind of thing is going to make it that much harder for the Off Road Cycling committee to create new trails that are like the Greater Allegheny Passage trail. By the way when I rode that a couple years ago even close in by Pittsburgh we didn’t see anything like what you see here.

Brent
Guest
Brent

What are the legal actions citizen groups can take when there is no action from police or government to deal with people on public land? I wonder because I imagine a nonviolent, long term and concerted presence by a citizen group could deter some of the most offensive and dangerous behavior. “Take Back the Springwater Corridor”. But I wouldn’t want to be open to lawsuits.

Jessica
Guest
Jessica

Lents Active Watch

B. Carfree
Guest
B. Carfree

Someone could go to court and attempt to get a writ of mandamus to compel the cops to do their jobs. That’s only going to work if you can find a judge who commutes by bike and has some feel for what is going on. Quite the long shot, to say the least.

Forum Law Group LLC - Bicycle Law
Guest

The mandamus procedure could be applicable to a number of situations where a police — or parks or transportation or code enforcement — official fails to perform a duty. It would need to be a clear cut issue, not discretionary. If any of the other lawyers want to round-table this I would facilitate.

Sara
Guest
Sara

I’d suggest advocating for housing for the homeless. That’s pretty much the most direct solution. Your time, money and insistence on the State affording people human dignity could really clean up that trail and make your Saturday bike rides more attractive.

Hello, Kitty
Subscriber
Hello, Kitty

Many of us do. However, this issue is about people (who may or may not have shelter) menacing and threatening others (who also may or may not have shelter). This behavior has to stop.

Spiffy
Subscriber

many people don’t want to live in a house/apt/shelter…

Hello, Kitty
Subscriber
Hello, Kitty

I know I don’t. I want to live in a lair.

davemess
Guest
davemess

I think that’s one of the big issues here: the idea that there are many different types of homelessness.

Pat Lowell
Guest
Pat Lowell

This is why we can’t have nice things…

Jim
Guest
Jim

If you want to carry something to defend yourself, head to any hardware store and pick up a can of wasp spray. 20 foot range, cheap, and very effective.

Josh Chernoff
Guest
Josh Chernoff

No joke the first thing I thought reading this was to install wasp hives all along the camps…

Cora Potter
Guest
Cora Potter

Not wasps – but honeybee hives could accomplish the same sort of deterrent effect, would probably help with the restoration of native plants and would result in delicious honey.

It could also be a really great small farming training program ….

Cora Potter
Guest
Cora Potter

And, the honey bees probably wouldn’t bother folks that are biking/walking. They just wouldn’t be pleasant to camp next to.

Grandpa
Guest
Grandpa

Great idea. If food producing plants and flowers were planted along the corridor =, persons of forthright intentions would be more present and the trolls would slink away to unseen corners. I know blackberries are weeds, but before they were removed there would always be pickers along the trail in august.

axoplasm
Subscriber

Ironically I was stung by bees twice times last summer while riding on the Springwater. With all that blackberry bees and wasps are not in short supply.

Spiffy
Subscriber

only if you want to violate federal law…

stick with the appropriate defense product: pepper spray…

Patrick
Guest
Patrick

I wouldn’t do that, it’s poisonous. Pepper spray is intended for people.

Pete
Guest
Pete

“there’s not enough officers”
…there are not enough officers? Sorry, my OCD coming out. 😉

redhippie
Guest
redhippie

Portland is becoming more and more a magnet for this kind of behavior. The more social services we provide and more liberal we are on criminal behavior, the more people will come from Seattle, LA, SF, etc. to take advantage of them. Mayor Hales announced his request for all city depts. to provide 5% in cuts to boost services for the homeless. This means the closure of my kids pool and a general decline in the services that I expect for my $6k/year in property taxes. Stack this on top of the ever growing number of no-go zones I have to go around and the two burglaries I’ve suffered in the last two years, and it is reaching an intolerable place.

I have a choice. I can leave the City I have called home for 25 years and more to a Hillsboro, Beaverton or Lake O, or try to get the City to have a realistic balance of care for our needy and the quality of life for the rest of the citizens. I will say that this issue has me on the edge leaving the shanty towns of PDX for the more progressive utopians to clean up with out the financial resources of the workers.

Tim
Guest
Tim

I have been homeless and camped out. I didn’t need protection from police harassment, because no one knew I was there. No littering, no thieving, no harassment, no problems.

The situation described is not homeless and camping, it is criminals taking over our public space. The protection from harassment of the homeless does not apply.

Josh Chernoff
Guest
Josh Chernoff

Thank you!

Chadwick F
Subscriber
Chadwick F

Portland Police Bureau now hiring:

http://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/60019

Ted Buehler
Guest
Ted Buehler

If you want to see more police resources put on this problem, you might consider sharing your opinion with mayorcharliehales@portlandoregon.gov — he’s the member of city council responsible for police.

Ted Buehler

carol
Guest
carol

You can call the Mayor’s complaint line at 503-823=4127 and also the Parks Security line 503-823-5459. Lents Active Watch is also posting phone numbers for people to call in A big art of the issue is that the mayor decided to state that the ban on camping in the Parks Title 20 is to not be enforced. SCT is a Public Parks Property – Sometime around Dec 15 this happened. The public does not know about it. The people congregating in this area do appear to be camping in an area that is also listed as CLOSED for habitat restoration in a public Park. Due to the homeless emergency, the city is refusing to move people until there is shelter. it seems a task force of police, mental health workers and social workers can come to this area and assess each person and try to get them into the shelter space now available.

Brad
Guest
Brad

Why can’t the PPB just ride motorcycles up and down the Springwater on patrols? That’s no violation of anyone’s rights and the criminal elements will disperse if they know that the trail is routinely patrolled.

Cora Potter
Guest
Cora Potter

They actually have ATV’s exactly for this purpose…

J_R
Guest
J_R

But to use the ATVs, they’d have to get out the trailers, drive to the area, unload the ATVs, drive the corridor, then do the reverse. Too complicated. Just use motorcycles or bicycles, for goodness sake. Get it done.

Buzz
Guest
Buzz

cops seem to be allergic to bicycles for some reason

Mao
Guest
Mao

Give me money and I’ll put a little siren on my bike
wee woo wee woo

davemess
Guest
davemess

I’ve actually seen them on the 205 path, but never the springwater.

davemess
Guest
davemess

And last night I was followed for two miles on the 205 path by a transit police cruiser. He even went up the hill to the MAX stop over Foster!

Tim Ferguson
Guest
Tim Ferguson

The thing to do is to make it more of a pain in the ass for the city to do nothing than to do something. Call 911 every time you see something on the trail that could possibly be interpreted as violent criminal behavior, whether it’s by a homeless person or anyone else. Report report report. Don’t worry about whether this is wasting 911 resources; allocating resources is the City’s job. Drive them batshit reporting, and they will figure out something so they don’t have to keep driving down there. I’m not saying make stuff up, but don’t wait until you are robbed or assaulted. Threat of robbery or assault warrants a 911 call. Menacing you off the trail is not a “quality-of-life” issue, and cities put out fires that are burning their asses. Ones that aren’t get put on the to-do list. Also, if the cops come down—and if someone’s threatening to kick your head in, they have to—often enough, folks might find somewhere else to go do crazy shit.

Craig Gifen
Guest

I had to call 911 last month at 11:00am on a Tuesday morning. Cops showed up exactly 17 minutes later. Meanwhile the tweaked out dude spreading his crap all over my front porch and trying to pick a fist fight with me (and later my elderly neighbors) finally left after I grabbed the baseball bat I keep near the door.

But hey, I live in one of the hottest Portland neighborhoods I’m told!

SE
Guest
SE

I ride Springwater from 111th to Sellwood about 2x a week. The mess and garbage is appalling.
At Beggars Tick there is a semi permanent tent complex where I see smoke from fires most every time I pass it. Rangers pull in right there and pretend the campers are invisible.
The PPD stance that the new law is tying their hands is bogus. They were ignoring the campers long before that.

All that said … I’ve never had a problem with them. give em a friendly tolerant smile and they usually won’t hassle you. That cutting over to JCB at 82nd works for me too.

The majority that were between 205 & 82nd now seemed to have moved next to Cartlandia.

Rode down Stark today, that city park at se117 had campers in it too. Wake up Amanda and do your job.

rachel b
Guest
rachel b

Good comment. But, ugh. Extorted smile. And friendliness.

Eric Leifsdad
Guest
Eric Leifsdad

Seems like “you don’t have to go home, but you can’t stay here” is fair whether you have a home or not. At least, “you can’t store stolen stuff here and act lawless” please.

naess
Guest
naess

well obviously the answer is to turn the springwater over to odot.

rick
Guest
rick

They did help with the rain garden by Barbur and SW 26th..

Spiffy
Subscriber

they would remove the campers within hours because they’re distractions…

rick
Guest
rick

Sad

Leslie Carlson
Guest

I’ve ridden the Springwater for years but as a woman, now avoid this section. It’s just not safe for a woman riding alone. A very good friend just gave up daily bike commuting from Gresham to SE Portland (after years of bike commuting) because she doesn’t feel safe riding it anymore. She’s now a daily driver. We’re sliding backwards here.

B. Carfree
Guest
B. Carfree

The exact same issue has been bedevilling Portland’s little sister to the south, Eugene. The bike paths have all been taken over by aggressive homeless people, most of whom have serious addiction issues. Al of them carry knives and/or baseball bats. Eugene’s bike facilities are mostly very near the free food places, so it’s very convenient to take over a bike path underpass.

Eugene has lost 37% of its cyclists back to cars since 2009, according to the US Census ACS. My wife won’t ride many places by herself any longer and I have several female friends who have either given up on riding after being harassed or are moving out of state.

Of course when these fine fellows take over a street that is frequented by motorists, the cops crack down right now. It’s not a lack of ability, it’s a lack of will.

Toby
Guest
Toby

One issue is that under the 205, it’s completely pitch black with nice wide areas for tents. During the winter when it’s dark out during peak commute times, that area is pretty scary. They have no lighting on the path. A simple fix to that area would be putting flood lights under 205 in the name of safety. Who do we talk to to make that happen?

Chris I
Guest
Chris I

The entire corridor should be lit. Do we have any major streets in Portland that are not lit?

eli bishop
Guest
eli bishop

The Springwater is more than a street. It’s a natural corridor. We don’t need bright lights everywhere. (Although I might make an exception for some under the 205 bridge.)

davemess
Guest
davemess

Surprisingly I’ve found the part under 205 to be some of the least problematic on the Springwater. I don’t know if it is territorial issues, or maybe ODOT does sweep it more often (they put in that big new metal gate a year or two ago on the east side of the highway), but I’ve been surprised how few people I see there (compared to other sections).

rick
Guest
rick

Have your friends heard of the Salem Area Trails Alliance?

estherc
Guest
estherc

These people that are harassing users of the Springwater are also making life a hell for other homeless who are defenseless. They’re predatory and they prey on other homeless too.

BB
Guest
BB

PPD doesn’t seem to have any lack of resources to consistently target/harass/ bully people of color in the city. Maybe they can divert some of that energy?

Jessica
Guest
Jessica

There are a lot of “homeless advocates” attacking PPB, ODOT, etc for “killing” these people by having them move or enforcing laws. It is mostly not even just livability issues but rampant crime. Menacing is not a livability issue……it’s a CRIME. Ditto with harrassment, threats, indecent exposure, illegal dumping, drug dealing, prostitution, drug manufacture (RV meth labs that are usually by the trail or other parks). They are all crimes. Kate Brown also had the homeless added to profiling legislation. You can’t support these so-called “advocates” (most of whom do not live in this part of town and do not know these people) or choose not to refute them in the news, on social media, and by calling local politicians and expect things to get better. Most of these people have family they could live with or other options and most have had low income housing (some more than once) but are unwilling to cease committing crimes and harming other people even to get a wa bed at night. They arent out there because they there arent enough shelter beds….that includes the sad “granny” they had on the news a couple weeks ago. Shes not that old……shes tore up because of drug abuse and when they offered her housing she turned it down. In your face Vahid Brown with you and your fake ass self. COP has basically told PPB that it’s hands off. Try calling nonemergency and Parks Security and reporting the specific criminal activity without using the term “homeless” was what my neighborhood watch recommended. I am going to try it. Get pictures….call PPB and make them dispatch…..avoid saying “homeless”….

Jessica
Guest
Jessica

Sorry about the previous typos. Just wanted to add that PPB is staffed at levels so low they have not been seen since the 60s and in this part of Portland officers are stretched very thin in a very high crime area.

so...
Guest
so...

Jonathan Maus (Publisher/Editor)
the PPB doesn’t think assaults are connected to their homeless status. Sorry if the story didn’t make that more clear.Recommended 0

All I know from this post is that there is an avenue of terror in Portland. If I travel on this avenue, will this mean I know what it is like to be a Syrian refugee?

chaka
Guest
chaka

Have any of the neighborhood groups being organized ever met with the people living along the Springwater Corridor? Talked to them? If police action is used as a threat to the people there, of course they will be hostile. Has there been any coordination or communication with local church or advocacy groups that might be providing resources (food, clothing), etc. to these groups? Outreach? Free sandwiches? Anything more (inter)personal than lobbying and police calls?

Cora Potter
Guest
Cora Potter

Yes, yes, yes and yes….for many years, with much compassion and tolerance. There’s still a bunch of unhoused folks- a lot more recently that are just a-holes. Predatory, disrespectful, a-holes that are the ones that are inhumane to other people, including their non a-hole unhoused neighbors.

davemess
Guest
davemess

There has actually been some debate from local businesses about open air food distribution going on in the area, with the goal of keeping food distribution to indoor facilities (who also have many other resources).

Alan 1.0
Guest
Alan 1.0

Is that about Cartlandia, or stuff like an “outreach sandwich truck” as SE mentioned in this thread, or ???

davemess
Guest
davemess

I happens around Cartlandia, and it is a local church that does it.
That’s about all I know.

Alan 1.0
Subscriber

Similar discussions around Esther Short Park in Vancouver. Good intentions, unintended consequences.

q`Tzal
Guest
q`Tzal

You know… A lot of these camping areas are covered in non-native and invasive vegetation.

I say we mow down and dig it all out and reestablish some good old fashioned Oregon wetlands. Small sections of swampy diversity for beavers and nutria. Streams, mini ponds, bio-swales, marshy soft wet ground that’ll suck a person’s leg in to the hip.

Yup, definitely time to remove some invasive plants.

rick
Guest
rick

Nutria destroy Oregon wetlands.

Hello, Kitty
Subscriber
Hello, Kitty
Mao
Guest
Mao

No nutria, they are invasive
Yes to froggies!

Hello, Kitty
Guest
Hello, Kitty

Yes, frogs taste good too!

q`Tzal
Guest
q`Tzal

We’re Humans and we eat all of the things.

I do have to wonder, however, just how much alcohol was involved in the first decision to eat fugu.

Hello, Kitty
Subscriber
Hello, Kitty

Probably not much. It’s the second guy I’m curious about.

Ovid Boyd
Guest
Ovid Boyd

I bike on the Fairview-Gresham Trail every morning to work. I have had 7 flat tires in the last 6 months due to broken glass. It’s better than bike lanes, but the state of things is shocking. I lived in China for a decade, and there simply isn’t a homeless problem of this sort there with people living in tents. I don’t know why a developed country can not simply rent some warehouse or something to house people indoors.

bjorn
Guest
bjorn

They probably wouldn’t want to allow people to shoot up or traffic in stolen goods in the warehouse so I doubt it would convince any of these folks to leave the trail.

Spiffy
Subscriber

you can’t house people in a warehouse due to zoning…

Alan 1.0
Guest
Alan 1.0

false

bjorn
Guest
bjorn

If someone were to set up a tent in the middle of 82nd avenue how long do you think the cops would allow that? Obstruction of the path can not be allowed.