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Reports: PBOT’s Lincoln-Harrison greenway meeting goes off the rails

Posted by on December 5th, 2017 at 9:59 pm

PBOT’s proposal for diverter at 50th.

Remember earlier today when I told you tonight’s PBOT open house for the Lincoln-Harrison Neighborhood Greenway Enhancement project might get interesting? Well from what we’re hearing so far, interesting doesn’t even describe it.

I wasn’t there, but several sources are reporting that it was completely bonkers. The crowd that’s vehemently opposed to a diverter at 50th and Lincoln was apparently very aggressive and nearly took over the meeting.

Here’s what what we’ve gleaned so far about how it went from emails, comments and tweets:

Aaron I:

“It was a disaster. They never should have agreed to give a presentation and let the pitchforks form around them.”

Cory P:

“The nimbys were out in force for this one. I don’t think I’ve seen a more hostile open house. One guy was actually asking to see people’s drivers licences to see if they had lived here long enough to be ‘real’ Oregonians.”

Anonymous text:

“2nd Lincoln Harrison meeting blowing up. Commandeered by anti group.”

Joe Bike (via Twitter):

“Judging by hands raised, the anti group didn’t have anywhere near the kind of majority they had in the last meeting. They were just really loud.”

BikeLoudPDX via Twitter:

“Wow. Just left Lincoln greenway open house. Anti diverter spokeswoman actually hijacked mtg during Q & A and then only called on anti ppl 2 speak, despite strong pro-diverter support. Appalling behavior from small group of neighbors & shocked @PBOTinfo didn’t stop it sooner… They brought signs that looked like official signs and one guy actually put his sign over @PBOTinfo’s until I asked him to move it. Outrageous tactics.”

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vs via a BikePortland comment:

“Just back from the open house on this project and I am shocked and disturbed by what was on display from the opponents of this project.

The opponents were well organized and angry. Dare I say belligerent. One person was assertively questioning a PBOT staff person about, ‘who thought up this thing, everyone who lives around here hates this project.’ A couple of us spoke up saying we live in the neighborhood and we think it’s a good project. We were curtly told that ‘bikers need to learn to share the road’.

The event was intended as an open house and the ‘no on 50th’ crowd demanded a person to speak. A city staffer was trying to explain the reason for the project (the greenway is failing and if we are to follow our plans as a city we need to lower traffic and slow it down) only to be shouted down. When he said, “as a city we decided we aren’t going to build freeways’ people shouted that down and shouted out, ‘who decided that?’

Remember, this is Mount Tabor in SE Portland. I felt like I was watching the Tea Party shouting down someone trying to talk about Obamacare. It definitely had a mob-like and hostile feel.

I am shocked by the way the opponents behaved. I was holding a bike helmet and had a few people angrily say, ‘you cyclists need to learn to share the road’. When we replied that we don’t think Lincoln is safe for kids, people said, in direct response, ‘well, I don’t want to have to drive on Division, it’s too busy.

Yes, in SE Portland, liberal mecca, where we all hate Roy Moore, a few minutes saved is more important than the safety of kids. I am extremely disappointed in my neighbors tonight.

That said, PBOT staff were great, super professional and they kept their cool despite treatment no one deserves.”

Andrea B via BikePortland comment:

“Fortunately at that point the Bikeloud contingent arrived, it was like the cavalry, they all hauled their bikes in there and we wished them well. The meeting being co-opted by the neighborhood was a big fail on PBOT’s part but they held their own well and I hope everybody here sends a short note of appreciation to their staff. I am really starting to think that the public comment venues are counterproductive. As somebody just noted on Nextdoor, “No stage, no drama.””

I’ve seen some pretty racuous and angry crowds at PBOT open houses over the years, but this one sounds like the worst. It will be interesting to see what PBOT does from here. Remember that there’s also an online survey that PBOT will likely lean on heavily in tallying community response to this project.

Were you at tonight’s meeting? Please share your thoughts so we can gain a better understanding of what happened — and what is likely to happen next.

— Jonathan Maus: (503) 706-8804, @jonathan_maus on Twitter and jonathan@bikeportland.org

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John
Guest
John

Kudos to the PBOT staff for keeping their cool… very tough crowd!

However, I was a bit dismayed that PBOT allowed an anti-diverter ‘spokesperson’ to choose who got to ask questions during an impromptu Q&A (note that anti-people all wore stickers stating so).

Some of the anti-comments were laughable… may favorite: ‘diverters will create a food desert.’

Overall, I was a bit shocked by some of my neighbors and disappointed that the pro-crowd (which was present) was pretty much ignored / not allowed to speak. People were too worked up to listen and have an actual conversation about the problem / impact of possible solutions.

Allan Rudwick
Guest
Allan Rudwick

These open houses always felt useless to me… Supporters assume it’s going to happen, opponents show up assuming it’s their only chance to fight it and it gets a weird vibe. I’d politicians had backbone they would just make stuff happen and the electrons would be the consequences for bad decisions. But we don’t trust ourselves to be a functioning republic

Betsy Reese
Guest
Betsy Reese

The “open house” was indeed turned into a presentation/Q&A from the stage initiated and emceed by a woman who I don’t believe ever identified herself. She seemed to be a member of the community who was in opposition, but the role she adopted made her appear to be officially in charge.

I’m not sure of the thinking of PBOT staff in deciding to obey her and try to explain the project and to answer questions from the crowd. Many times they were booed down.

Three times I picked up materials from the PBOT information table displays that were provided by the opposition and handed them to the PBOT person monitoring the sign-in, information, and comment card tables. In classy contrast, a low-key guy holding a folder off to the side asked me if I was a supporter and when I said yes, he asked me if I would like to take a flyer.

The two shows-of-hands up until 6:55 PM when I had to leave showed supporters outnumbered opponents by maybe 3:2. As several of us supporters were leaving the meeting we were heartened to be tag-teamed by a large contingent arriving on bicycles together from an earlier open house for the Sullivan’s Gulch overpass.

I question the utility of holding a meeting/open house “asking for public input” like this. It openly pits neighbor-against-neighbor as though the resulting acrimony is worth what seems to be represented as a some kind of wholly democratic process of decision-making based on votes cast by those present. I think there are other ways of “getting to yes” that don’t leave people feeling so bitter and unheard or like they have been played by PBOT saying they want public input but “doing what they want anyway”. We went through this on Clinton. Anyone have any ideas on what could be a better way?

shirtsoff
Guest
shirtsoff

It was odd. The hands raised bit was unusual and amounted to not much at all.

Put the diverters in. If it is the end of Portland as we know it, tear them back out six months later. Try it out first and see what happens. I’d bet money that it won’t ruin the NIMBYs lives and we can go back to our favorite scapegoats of congestion, Californians, people without stable housing, et al you name it.

John Liu
Guest
John Liu

I think PBOT might have done well to initially involve the neighborhood in devising the diverter plan, e.g. at a meeting where different alternatives were presented and people got to put stickers on the plans they favor. It sounds like PBOT decided what it wanted to do and then told the neighborhood as a fait accompli.

That said, PBOT should look at all information to judge neighborhood support or opposition. The entire number of voices, not just the loudness of voices. When PBOT sent flyers to the neighborhood, it could have included a return postcard. What’s the yes/no split on Nextdoor? The show of hands at tonight’s meeting? The tally of online responses? The number of people signing yes vs no petitions?

Suppose a clear majority of the neighborhood does in fact oppose the 50th diverter. Should PBOT just ram it through, without exploring alternatives with the neighborhood? Well, that may cause other neighborhoods to oppose greenways, and damage support for cycling. Are the problems on Lincoln serious enough to make that worthwhile? Not a rhetorical question: I don’t know.

Clark in Vancouver
Guest
Clark in Vancouver

All this for a little diverter? Crazy. If they think this minor tweak to the street is an affront then they’re really not ready for the future.
You know some car people have become so accustomed to being able to drive everywhere that any tiny inconvenience like this is seen by them as a huge threat.
This is why I no longer support compromises like this. They’re never happy no matter what you do. Trying to appease them by meeting them half way doesn’t work so you might as well go all the way.

Bjorn
Subscriber
Bjorn

Thanks for all the reporting on this and the links to how to comment. I couldn’t attend but took the survey and sent out some emails. This story and the impact it has is a perfect example of why I am a bikeportland subscriber and I urge others to consider joining if you haven’t already.

Brian
Guest
Brian

Wow, this sounds like a meeting to discuss whether or not to add trails in Forest Park.

Bikeninja
Guest
Bikeninja

” There is no more potent force in the modern world than stupidity fueled by greed”

Edward Abbey

VS
Guest
VS

Another of the silly anti diverter arguments were that property values will drop. There was a man at the mtg arguing that Clinton street has killed property values in that neighborhood.

Property values are an issue around Clinton, as they have gone up like a rocket and it’s hard to afford.

Ted
Guest
Ted

Yes, the descriptions accurately portray what happened. The opposition was well organized. They had someone stationed at the door with a poster of “statements from cyclists” in opposition to the diverters and someone inside passing out PBOT’s comment cards only to others in the anti-diverter crowd. I noticed someone smirk and nod when I made that observation to a friend. Many of those in opposition who spoke in the hijacked portion of the evening claimed to be a cyclist, but their comments ultimately ended up being about driving.

The flyer passed out among residents seems to have had a strong effect, but is dishearteningly misleading. Has the post-fact world made its way to progressive, well-educated Portland?

9watts
Guest
9watts

One wonders what role Nextdoor plays in this polarization? This hardening of an oppositional position? I’ve not seen the conversations on Nextdoor fostering mutual understanding, examining, interrogating the thinking on both sides, giving everyone opportunities to hear and perhaps even understand each other. Which is really too bad because it would in theory be well positioned to do just this.

Mike Quigley
Guest
Mike Quigley

I don’t see why people find this kind of behavior shocking in the age of Trump. It’s America’s new normal. Make it work for you. Have fun with it.

Manville
Guest

This sounds a lot like the ORMP meetings. It’s funny that in such a liberal city the “I am fourth generation Portlander” nationalist type argument is so prevalent. I guess people don’t see the correlation.

soren
Guest
soren

I entered the open house with the BikeLoudPDX group and several others who entered at the same time. There was a large cluster of people surrounding two people on stage conducting a Q&A. Many of the these people were physically blocking access to the informational posters and to PBOT personnel. When I and others started asking what was happening we were aggressively “Shushed” by the cluster of people surrounding the stage, many of whom were wearing anti-diverter badges. I was told to be quiet in a very rude way by one of these individuals — essentially told to “shut up”. Others were were also told to be quiet in a hostile manner. I later spoke to several people who said that they moved away and/or “zoned out” because the aggression of this group was so high. I noticed people leaving the meeting while this was happening and it’s not a stretch to assume that they were intimidated by this aggression.

I pushed through this aggressive crowd and climbed onto the stage and found PBOT staff essentially hiding behind the crowd. Because I was confused about who was leading this Q&A, I asked Roger Geller (PBOT bike coordinator) if either of the people leading the discussion were PBOT staff. To be blunt, it was hard to get a straight answer to this simple question. When it became clear that neither of the people leading the Q&A were PBOT personnel, I told Roger that allowing a crowd to silence and intimidate people at a public city open house was inappropriate.

I began to have “discussions” with some of the protesters on stage and was once again told to be quiet. The protesters and action-leaders told me that it was their right to have a “spontaneous” discussion at this city meeting and that if I wanted to be heard I should get off stage and raise my hand. I disagreed strongly and stated that since I had arrived only people who were opposed to the Greenway project were being called on (many of the protesters wore badges with a 50 and a slash symbol). Several of the protesters on stage admitted that this was true and one even admitted that this was a problem (this was the only brief moment of civility I experienced).

At this point, I became irate and once again looked for Roger Geller to voice my concerns. As I patiently waited for Roger to finish talking with a protester (wearing a badge), another protester moved very close to me and loudly proclaimed several times that they were next. I politely let them have their say. However, when I attempted to speak with Roger, the protest leader loudly interrupted me and spoke over me despite my telling her multiple times that I had patiently waited to speak with Roger. Despite my attempts to break into the discussion, the protest leader continued to ignore me and continued to loudly speak over me. When I tried to speak to the PBOT engineer (Scott Batson) a protester once again tried to shut me down using a similar tactic. IMO, there was a coordinated attempt to surround PBOT staff, block access, and shut down those who were perceived to be pro-diverter.

As a socialist, I am not opposed to direct action and support the right of Portland residents to hold actions at city events. What I found very troubling and unacceptable about this direct action was the strong hostility and aggression directed at other residents (who none of these badge wearing protesters knew personally).

I urge all Portland residents who were affected by this aggression and intimidation to write to Commissioner Saltzman, Director Treat, Projects Group Manager Art Pearce, and Bicycle Coordinator Roger Geller: dan@portlandoregon.gov; leah.treat@portlandoregon.gov; art.pearce@portlandoregon.gov; Roger.Geller@portlandoregon.gov.

I also urge people who want to preserve the comfort and safety of our Neighborhood Greenway network to use the project survey form here:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/GK7STJ6

Terry D-M
Guest
Terry D-M

As I have told neighborhood leaders there are ways to improve the functionality of the Diverter at 50th by improvements in auto capacity in other areas, signage or even an uphill curb tight eastbound bike lane combined with a semi-diverters.

But that means the residents would have to accept compromise and talk rationally.

Toadslick
Subscriber

There is no debate to be had when the people driving 4,000-pound exhaust-spewing SUVs yell that the people on 20-pound bicycles are the ones not “sharing the road.”

We know from nearly every example in recent history that ignorant people will fight tooth-and-nail against any minuscule effort at street-calming, only to embrace it after the infrastructure is in place.

PBOT, please do the right thing and install these diverters.

Robert Spurlock
Guest
Robert Spurlock

I showed up about a half-hour into the meeting and witnessed an ugly seen. There were several PBOT staffers up on the stage with a mob of about 80 people gathered around them, and a woman in front (who I was told was on the Mt. Tabor Neighborhood Association Board) directing a question and answer session. I have hosted several public engagement events, and I can honestly say that this is a worst-case scenario for any public open house because it actually limits the opportunities for Q&A and cuts off productive dialogue by only allowing one out of nearly 100 people to talk at any given time. This format actually limits participation by creating an intimidating environment where people with differing views, people who don’t speak English well, people who can’t speak loudly, etc, feel silenced.

I hung out around the perimeter of the mob, engaging my neighbors (I’m a Richmond resident) and fellow bicyclists in conversations about the pros and cons of the project. But to my astonishment, each time a new side conversation picked up, we were summarily sushed by the mob. We were literally being silenced. To me this was the ultimate insult and was unacceptable, so I took matters into my own hands.

I worked my way to the front of the crowd and told the woman “facilitating” the Q&A that she should disperse the crowd to allow the open house to continue as planned. To my amazement, she heard my concerns and complied. The mob broke up and dozens of one-on-one conversations picked back up. I left shortly after and didn’t witness how the rest of the evening progressed. I felt like I had done my part, but it was not a positive experience.

Brian
Guest
Brian

I am impressed that you all stayed so calm after being treated like children. Nice work. I’m not so sure I would have had the same resolve.

Smarty Pants
Guest
Smarty Pants

“….very aggressive and nearly took over the meeting.”
“….They were just really loud.””
“…Outrageous tactics.”
“…well organized and angry. Dare I say belligerent. ”

Wonder if most of those folks were Democrats?
🙂

soren
Guest
soren

I also want to add that some who arrived with the BikeLoudPDX ride are low-income folk who rent in outer east Portland. To have their access to city staff blocked and to be told to be quiet by generally wealthy home owners in the Mount Tabor Neighborhood is an EQUITY issue.

Todd Hudson
Guest
Todd Hudson

The last place in which I lived was in the Mount Tabor. I stopped following anything the NA did because it seemed like it was controlled by the NextDoor stereotypes – how they acted during the decommission of the Tabor reservoirs bordered on unhinged.

Andrea Brown
Guest
Andrea Brown

I have an old friend who lives in Mt. Tabor neighborhood and we certainly do not see eye to eye on this. But we sat down for coffee and talked things through. I didn’t convince him to change his mind one bit, but as we talked, I asked him if, given that Lincoln no longer meets Bike Greenway standards, does he think that Lincoln will remain the way it is, a long stretch with no/few stop signs? Because it doesn’t seem to me that it could, and if not, what might happen to its designation from there? What would the neighborhood think if it returned to a regular neighborhood street with stop signs every two/three blocks? Or if it were to become a collector or arterial to absorb auto traffic from eastern neighborhoods? Do they want their neighborhood divided by a heavily used street like that? Maybe they would be just fine with that, but based on the histrionics that a diverter on 50th has engendered, I’m guessing not. I have been a cranky and sarcastic commenter on this topic, I admit. I am just pretty stunned by the hypocrisy, facile virtue-signaling, and aggressive dishonesty of the anti-diverter folks. My friend and I made a pact that this would not come between us, and it won’t, but it’s been really, really discouraging. The statement that Clinton street values have cratered is risible. “Division Street is already at capacity!” I heard last night, which begs the question, “So where do you all go once you get to Cesar Chavez?” I’m all for logical resistance but over and over when you question people’s declarations of disaster (not everyone’s, but many) what they are saying makes no sense. Just, “I don’t want to change my driving habits. Period.” cloaked in righteous language.

Doug Hecker
Guest
Doug Hecker

I went to the meeting last night as well. I think the common theme of the neighborhood is simple, every other street is either a dead end or doesn’t go through. Not every situation is the same. What works for one neighborhood may not for others which seemed to be a key element brought to the discussion last night. PBOT desires only the local community to use the roads. The problem happens that when the only access point that connects everything is slapped with a diverter. The local folks then get shoved onto Hawthorne or Divison. Anyone love those those two streets? I can’t say that I have in my 3.5 years living at 60th and Division. In my estimation, PBOT created a monster with Division and Hawethorne to make them more “friendly” but i don’t think people are feeling the kindness. If PBOT didn’t create the current mess of making major thoroughfares “calmed” then this probably wouldn’t be an issue but not everyone can or is able to ride a bike. I am thankful that I am and do but we have to be reasonable with the needs of the community and our own desires.

Mike Sanders
Guest
Mike Sanders

Clearly an attempt to kill the project outright. Everyone should be concerned that this incident might end up throwing this project into the gutter forever. And future diverted projects might now be very much in doubt.

John Liu
Guest
John Liu

Public meetings on controversial topics have to be tightly run lest they turn unproductive and rancorous. A person with authority has to lead the meeting. At the start of the meeting, rules of conduct have to be clearly stated. Presentation materials have to be visible to all, either via projector/screen or large posters mounted high. Audience questions have to be limited in time (e.g. 2 minutes). Microphones and a PA system help the softer-spoken be heard. Conspicuously videotaping the meeting tends to encourage civil behavior. It may be preferable to have the audience write questions on comment cards and have the leader read the question and have the appropriate person answer. There needs to be a way for everyone at the meeting to make their view known even if they don’t get microphone time, e.g. comment cards or comment sheets circulated and collected. The leader should call for a show of hands as each topic is discussed, and announce the count of hands yea vs nay, to further allow input and let everyone know what the majority sentiment is.

Advocates attending these meetings also need to do certain things to be most effective. Show up early. Bring and distribute handouts. Plan out the key points you want to make. Participate. Don’t leave early.

I’ll make this next point with trepidation, knowing it’ll be unpopular. You have to be sensitive to the concerns of both the undecideds and your opponents, including the concerns you consider baseless. They probably aren’t baseless, and usually they can be addressed, in a creative compromise that works for everyone – if people feel like they are being heard, not dictated to by central planners and non-residents who they might perceive as treating their neighborhood as nothing more than a commute route.

In other words, get out of the echo chamber, listen and exchange ideas not hardened positions, find areas of agreement, build on those.

There must be a way to find common ground here! Even the local residents who don’t ride bikes must realize that high volume of cut-through commuter traffic zooming through their neighborhood is bad – not just today’s volumes, but the 2-3X higher volumes that are going to come.

Find residents of the neighborhood who support this project and are knowledgeable and willing to lead the local effort. They should sit down with a couple opponents of the project, someone from the neighborhood’s board (whoever works on traffic/safety), and someone from PBOT who is very knowledgeable about the data for traffic volumes and the possibilities for diversion and mitigation. Do it over coffee, a small meeting in a quiet place to clear the air and explore options in a non-adversarial, open-minded way.

It will take time and it will be frustrating.

The alternative is to steamroll the project over what sounds like significant local opposition, and feed the backlash/opposition to cycling.

P.S. I’d point out that the behavior described in these comments sounds not unlike the disruptive protest behavior that has shut down some city council meetings in the past year.

Anne
Guest
Anne

Catie
The sticky thing about this project is that the greenway is not compliant with PBOT standards.
Wait, I’m confused. Doesn’t PBOT create Greenways?!

Bjorn
Subscriber
Bjorn

My take is that the only decent option these folks have left PBOT with is to install the diverters today. If they give even the appearance that these tactics worked to delay or derail the project then this nonsense will become the playbook for NIMBY’s throughout Portland and that definitely doesn’t seem like a road the city should want to go down.

Jim Lee
Guest
Jim Lee

Forget PBOT.

Forget BTA.

Learn to ride our bikes better!

John Mulvey
Guest
John Mulvey

Clicky Freewheel
In our current age of democratic breakdown, should we assume more city meetings will go this route?

If they succeed in getting the Council to cave then you can bet we’ll see more of it.

vs
Guest
vs

I just checked the online petitions pro and con. As of this moment there are 281 on the ‘yes’ to diverters petition and only 261 on the ‘no’ to diverters.

If you haven’t already, do the PBOT survey at https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/GK7STJ6 and then go sign the supporter’s petition at http://chn.ge/2hN2i5v

Those mean people last night are a minority opinion, let’s show our support for this project.

vs
Guest
vs

Actually, a huge chunk of the signers on the ‘no’ petition are anonymous. I think the mean people last night are signing their own petition multiple times.

Clicky Freewheel
Guest
Clicky Freewheel

In the Netherlands, they install movable bollards in the street that only allow drivers with a transponder to lower them. All cyclists and pedestrians can access by going around them, of course. Couldn’t this be a good compromise? I imagine the cost spread out over all the affected residents wouldn’t be too much. We could even use fees from a theoretical parking permit program to build them.

Smarty Pants
Guest
Smarty Pants

I would say that the people who own homes along the route should be the only ones providing input to PBOT. Any changes to their street may affect their property values and/or the usability of their property.

John
Guest
John

Clicky Freewheel
Honestly, maybe the compromise solution is to build protected bike facilities on Hawthorne and Division instead of trying to play whack-a-mole with neighborhood street calming. Let cyclists use the same commuter routes drivers do and give them quality safe facilities to do so. Hawthorne certainly has the room.Recommended 0

The greenway ‘action thresholds’ for daily auto traffic (the threshold that triggered the whole proposal) are designed around making people who are new to cycling comfortable.

While Division / Hawthorne bike lanes may be effective for commuters, they will not help to increase cycling among newbies / children / etc.

John
Guest
John

vs
Actually, a huge chunk of the signers on the ‘no’ petition are anonymous. I think the mean people last night are signing their own petition multiple times.Recommended 0

I observed more than one person filling out multiple comment cards last night…

Ryan Janssen
Guest
Ryan Janssen

I was going to ask “Is fact-based, civil discussion dead in the USA?” Dumb question.

This is so disappointing.

Kate
Guest
Kate

We were there and it was horrendous! The anti-diverter crowd was completely out of control and rude. Their behavior was atrocious. It was supposed to be an open house, but the first part turned into an unfacilitated meeting, where people were yelling and booing. There was no mic, so you couldn’t really hear what people were saying. Whoever was calling on people was only allowing the antis to speak. The night before the meeting the antis put inaccurate scaremongering flyers on people’s doors, with things like “1,000 cars on your street!” in red. They also have flagged the pro-diverter petition on Nextdoor to try to get it removed. We live in the neighborhood and will be slightly inconvenienced by being required to drive around the block, but welcome the chance to improve safety on Lincoln. These people are snobbish and entitled. Their responses to reasoned argument are things such as anyone supporting the greenway “doesn’t live in the neighborhood” or “live in Portland.” However, many of us in the neighborhood do support this project. Or there is the woman who keeps suggesting that “children live on the side streets” or that parallel traffic isn’t dangerous for bikes, just perpendicular traffic. ?? This comes down to their unwillingness to be even slightly inconvenienced for the greater good.

Jojo
Guest
vs
Guest
vs

Smarty Pants,

Last night someone who lives East of 50th told me that my opinion didn’t matter because I live West of 50th. The diverter in question would be west of 50th, so on my side of the tracks, so to speak.

I agree with Maus that those adjacent shouldn’t be the only ones with a valid opinion, but if we use your logic, those on Mt Tabor should have no say, as they are adding traffic on the street within 2 blocks of my house.

The comments on the ‘no’ petition say as much. They want to be able to drive from the Mt Tabor neighborhood down Lincoln through the Richmond neighborhood. By your logic all the Mt Tabor folks should STFU. Your logic.

Jay
Guest
Jay

Is there a ‘Comment of the week’ anymore?

Alan Love
Guest
Alan Love

“People. They’re the worst.”
George Costanza

MJS
Guest
MJS

Silly question: is there any way, based on what transpired last night, for PBOT to do a 3-6 month diverter trial? It wouldn’t be “pretty” but wouldn’t it be relatively cheap to set up a few concrete Jersey barriers or planters (like what was originally at Lincoln and 34th?) and watch the data? I have a feeling data will win this argument pretty convincingly if we give it a chance.

John
Guest
John

Ryan Janssen
I was going to ask “Is fact-based, civil discussion dead in the USA?” Dumb question.This is so disappointing.Recommended 3

Seriously…

Facts were presented from a traffic engineer (traffic count from rubber hoses) but people questioned whether these facts were real because they never saw the rubber hoses.

Conspiracy theories about falsified traffic count data!

Ryan Janssen
Guest
Ryan Janssen

I don’t even know what a winning strategy to combat this nonsense would be.

They’re behaving like spoiled children. At least with a child you can send them to their room and wait the tantrum out before continuing the discussion. What do you do when adults behave this way and it impacts the safety of so many others?

Serious question.

Mike Shaver
Guest
Mike Shaver

A couple of people have alluded to the mis-information being distributed by those in opposition to the diverter and I agree this is simply fear mongering. I wish PBOT had laid out the actual numbers to neighbors right away. Here is how the numbers could very well break down. The diverters could reduce the volume on Lincoln by 1,000 cars a day and of those only 20-40% would be local neighbors or cars continuing to cut through. Let’s say for arguments sake it’s 50%, so you have 500 cars a day that need to find an alternative route on the side streets. That is 500 cars a day that need to use one side street between 50th and 60th. That means there is no way any one street will get close to 1,000 cars a day as the opposition is painting the picture of. It’s much more likely that some side streets will see small increases with some increasing a few hundred. Many of the side streets between 50th and 60th already experience very low volumes by any PBOT standard. Many are less than 200 cars a day.

In many ways the diverter will reduce overall neighborhood cut through much better than the Clinton improvements did, since there is no adjoining East/West route like Woodward.

It’s very possible presenting this to neighbors would have little effect to change their minds, as they are more focused on the slight inconvenience of not using their current route. But I certainly think it would at least of put some of the hysteria at bay.

How can PBOT and advocacy groups get the true numbers out? It’s something everyone that is a supporter should point out to city officials.

X
Guest
X

SE Portland property values are golden unless and until several large ice sheets break up and slide into the ocean. Mount Tabor beach front? Happy motoring.

John Liu
Guest
John Liu

After studying the map and the traffic counts (thanks Soren for posting), I’m wondering if a diverter blocking westbound traffic at Lincoln/60 and, maybe, another diverter blocking westbound traffic at Lincoln/50 might be a compromise. These would discourage morning westbound commuters from using Lincoln as a cut through alternative to Division. Eastbound traffic volume seems lighter than westbound, and turning off Division eastbound to use Lincoln eastbound involves a left turn across Division.

buildwithjoe
Guest

I spent much of Saturday in this area as a volunteer going door to door by myself. One woman was willing to share why she opposed the diverters.

The defense came out quickly….. Joe did not live in the neighborood. Joe’s voice should not count as much as people who live there.

I pointed out that is not a reason to exclude me. I don’t live on Clinton or Division, but I need those 2 streets when I go to/from work.

So the choice is
a) Joe in his Honda Civic on streets.
b) joe on his bike on Clinton.

What do you want folks?

I might just find that It’s nicer to drive to work in my Honda civic up and down Lincoln at a very slow speed to keep everyone safe. It’s right on my path. It’s much faster than Division. I would encourage people with cars to be a bike ally. Bike the route. And use Lincoln/Harrison as much as possible in their very slow moving motor vehicle the next few weeks. Perhaps we can get some type of button too. It can be big enough for the people who live there to see it as we drive by slowly on our way to/from our jobs.

….

Daniel Patrick Johnson
Guest
Daniel Patrick Johnson

Sorry I missed it. I’m a genuine Mt. Tabor neighborhood resident now. I often use that intersection on my bike. The car traffic has gotten terrible, and with insanely expensive cars. I just freeboxed a suit on my walk home. At least the brand new expensive cars have automatic breaking. Last year I witnessed a teenage girl die in the street when she was hit by a speeding SUV. A few months later people barely jumped out of the way in time when an SUV crashed into a vision clinic waiting room. The street side wall was touching chairs on the far side of the room. These were both on Hawthorne. Stuff like this happening and they are worried about a minute once a week grocery shopping.