Splendid Cycles Big Sale

Problems persist on Broadway

Posted by on October 22nd, 2010 at 10:32 am

Observing Broadway traffic-6

With high volumes of cars and bikes,
Broadway needs our attention.
(Photos © J. Maus)

No street in Portland has gotten more attention on this site over the years than Broadway; and it doesn’t look to be ending any time soon. Before I get into some current bike safety issues that exist on the street, let me take you back in time…

There was the infamous hotel zone saga, the city’s first experiment with a parking protected bike lane (a.k.a. cycle track) down near PSU, the stop sign controversies and resulting attention from PBOT at Flint, the safety concerns at Wheeler, and of course, the numerous stories we’ve done about the dangers of right hooks at Williams.

Illegal turn at bike signal

Motor vehicles are still turning
right on red at Williams.

Most recently, we’ve given our attention to the new bike signal at Williams. That’s a welcome improvement, but it’s far from being fixed. The five-foot wide, curbside bike lane isn’t a comfortable place to ride and motor vehicles operators are making right turns on red in alarming numbers (despite a big, red, flashing LED sign telling them not to). Hopefully, compliance goes up at Williams in the coming weeks.

Today I want to bring your attention to two issues: The new right-hook potential at Larrabee and the existing right-hook potential at Wheeler. (Note: Crash data shows that right-hook crashes rarely lead to serious injuries or fatalities compared to other types of colisions.)

Broadway and Larrabee observations-8

Looking east up Broadway from
Larrabee.
Broadway and Larrabee observations-4

Can you spot the person
in the bike lane?

With the completion of streetcar track installation on Broadway, PBOT has changed the bike lane configuration as you head westbound onto the Broadway Bridge. The bike lane used to merge over one lane a block in advance of Larrabee, so that bike traffic continuing west would be to the left of right-turning motor vehicle traffic going north on Larrabee. Now, PBOT has put the bike lane curbside. This means the bike lane is to the right of vehicles turning right onto Larrabee.

Broadway and Larrabee observations-1

This issue is made worse because there is a high volume of truck traffic that goes right at this intersection. This right-turn is one of the main access points for grain trucks and other big rigs headed to the industrial area under the Fremont bridge and Albina railyards. It’s also worth noting that the Portland Water Bureau prohibits their truck drivers from using Wheeler (out of safety concerns, see below), which means they use Larrabee instead.

Thankfully, PBOT is aware of the issues at Larrabee and City Traffic Engineer Rob Burchfield told me the other day they are currently meeting with the Portland Trail Blazers and Rose Quarter people to see if they’ll sign off on potential solutions. I’ll keep you posted on what those are and if/when they are coming.

The Flint/Broadway/Wheeler
horseshoe.

Another unresolved issue on Broadway is the strange Wheeler/Flint horseshoe intersection. This is right across the street from my office and I can attest from hours of observations over the years that this intersection is a mess. Bikes come south down Flint (many of them not stopping at the stop sign) and just a few yards after they merge onto Broadway they come to Wheeler. A fair number of cars and trucks turn right onto Wheeler from Broadway. My photos do a better job explaining how tricky this intersection is (the three below were taken in just one 15 minute period)…

Observing Broadway traffic-7

Observing Broadway traffic-3

Observing Broadway traffic-12

Jeff Guard, an OSHA-certified Training and Development Analyst for the Portland Water Bureau felt right turns onto Wheeler were so risky he implemented a policy prohibiting his drivers from doing it. One potential solution would be to install a curb extension that would prohibit right turns (northbound traffic) onto Wheeler. Motor vehicles could simply go one short block west to Ross in order to access the area.

The City is aware that the Broadway/Weidler couplet needs some help. They’re embarking on a large-scale planning effort to take a closer look at the area. Check out the N/NE Quadrant planning effort that’s just getting started at the Bureau of Planning.

Do you ride or drive on these sections of Broadway? Do you agree they need attention and improvement? What are your experiences? How can we help PBOT make this a less stressful place? I’m sure they’d appreciate your feedback, and so would I.

NOTE: We love your comments and work hard to ensure they are productive, considerate, and welcoming of all perspectives. Disagreements are encouraged, but only if done with tact and respect. If you see a mean or inappropriate comment, please contact us and we'll take a look at it right away. Also, if you comment frequently, please consider holding your thoughts so that others can step forward. Thank you — Jonathan

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21Fremont
Guest
21Fremont

I ride Broadway west, into downtown, every weekday. All I can say is both drivers and bikers need to do better. Short of that, law enforcement is really the only thing I can think of that might curb behavior. We’re dealing with horrible design work (I’m sorry, but red lights, flashing or not, do not prevent drivers from turning right; you’ve listed the other problems), and bikers continue to blow through lights and stop signs, each and every day. Like you, Jonathan, I can provide photos and video to prove it.

So, we’re left with enforcement. I’m in favor, as a biker and sometimes driver, of ticketing as often as needed to change behaviors. I hate this answer, I really do; but we’re dealing with human nature here, and we all think we’re entitled, it seems, to do what we want.

I will gleefully add time to my commute to avoid B’way altogether because I really do practically kiss the ground every time I make it to work. Someone is going to be killed on Broadway, and the attention the problem receives then, I have to say, will not solve it either.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

If I get hit, the driver and city are getting sued on this one

Helen McConnell
Guest
Helen McConnell

Great coverage on this, Jonathan! This area is the bane of my commuting existence! During the time the Broadway Bridge was closed, I started taking NE 7th to Multnomah, to MLK, to Couch, to the Burnside Bridge. I like it so much better than this mess, so I continue to use it in-bound most days. I preferred the mid-traffic bike lane that existed on Broadway – between Flint and the bridge – prior to construction. I felt much less vulnerable. Coming home, Broadway is my easiest route, and also where I got hit two weeks ago – at the Train Station entrance, where taxis come out and there is a construction site that blocks visibility and cars are turning left into the station. Broadway definitely needs some attention!

peejay
Guest
peejay

Good luck on enforcement solving anything. If it does, it’ll be the first time ever that bad street design was solved in that manner.

spare_wheel
Guest
spare_wheel

if the flashing led light is ineffective pbot should install a red light camera.

kudos to jonathan for his excellent activist journalism.

Kiel Johnson (Go By Bike)
Guest
kiel Johnson

You forgot about Broadway and MLK which has had, according to the map of crashes in NE from last years safety summit, 20 reported bike injuries over the past ten years. Those are just the reported ones, more than any other intersection in NE.

If we want to make broadway safe for cyclists there needs to be a cycle track, more bicycle signal lights, and physical barriers that prohibit cars from making right hand turns on dangerous intersections and encourages them to instead make them on safer ones with lights. We need to either go big or go home. We are never going to increase biking in NE without making this important street safe for bikes.

If we as advocates want to create that change we need to go around to businesses and talk to them about these problems and how making the area safer for bicyclists is better for their business. The city does not have the ability to do that.

21Fremont
Guest
21Fremont

Peejay, I agree, but re-design costs money, tickets may change behavior and bring in revenue.

Jonathan, given how much you observe and the documentation you provide (photos, videos, logs, in effect, on a blog, etc.) have you considered taking your work into the courtroom and initiating/helping process ORS 153.058 citations?

patrickz
Guest
patrickz

Thanks for the fine coverage, Jonathan. I have nothing to add to what’s been said, other than I avoid B’way when going to town and use the Knott-Vancouver-Steel Br. route. (I live in NE). I leave the Broadway route for early weekend mornings.

reopmok
Guest
reopmok

Bravo again to Portland traffic engineers for coming up with unintuitive, dangerous “solutions” to design problems. I really have to smack my forehead here, because it seems like their hearts are in the right place, but their minds are off somewhere in la-la land when they are on the clock working for us.

I haven’t ridden through the intersection in question since changes were made, but really I must ask, why is it necessary to have _two_ right turn lanes? Why can’t a single right turn lane be drawn from the biker’s right of way, forcing drivers to do the merging if they want to make a right? Then at the signal, as a cyclist, you could choose to go straight or turn right. Merging to the left of a right turn lane is how it’s done all over the rest of the city, so it’s no wonder to me that people are confused and impatient with a one-off design like this.

I also don’t understand this broader ethos of “separate but equal” and why so many in the bike community actually support it. Wasn’t there a civil rights movement fought against segregation in this country? Do you really think we’ll be a world class cycling city when auto drivers continue to look down on cyclists as second class citizens and road users? I know you guys want to attract that timid audience, but it will never happen until there is actually respect among the majority people for our choice to use bicycles as transportation. Until we begin demanding that respect by asserting our rights to use the road, kid in tow or not, we will continue to be marginalized, shoved to the side and given these second class, convoluted “solutions” to our city’s traffic problems. We can do better.

Aaron
Guest
Aaron

Excellent work Jonathan. I also hate Broadway with a passion. I’ve told Metro planners for 4yrs that it shouldn’t be listed as a bike route (or at least listed as a more dangerous bike route).
But I have a solution:…..
Just make Broadway a car-free boulevard.
sooo simple
(yes you may say I’m a dreamer)

BURR
Guest
BURR

But Jonathan, you’re being so negative, why can’t you just like everything the city builds?

😉

pabstslut
Guest
pabstslut

I agree with #5 that a red light camera seems like an easy way to curb illegal right turns.

BURR
Guest
BURR

Two suggestions:

1. Drop the bike lane at least a block before Larrabee and make the right lane for through bikes and right turns only, with sharrows markings to the left of center in the lane.

2. Completely eliminate access to Wheeler from Broadway. Anyone wanting access to locations on Wheeler north of Broadway can turn right a block later at Ross and go around the block on Dixon.

Jim F
Guest
Jim F

What? My fellow cyclists are not supposed to run stop signs and red lights? Could have fooled me.

Andy
Guest
Andy

I have an idea about the flint horseshoe. As a car free cyclist I get real annoyed when I see cyclists run that stop sign (ignoring the large paint “Bikes Stop”).

What about a speed bump for bikes? It may not get people to stop but at least slow down. It would be traffic calming but for cyclists (The bump should be far enough back that it wont cause a spill into broadway). You could even do a series of small bumps, kinda like a rumble strip. Just enough to rattle the ridder and hopefully slow them.

Or maybe a curb extension designed to slow cyclists and route them onto broadway. Kinda like that mini cycle track that routes bikes off of wiedler and onto N williams. You could put in low concrete barriers.

Basically what I am saying is why cant we apply traffic calming to bike traffic.

I’m just saying our general cycling behaviors could use a little modification.

Joe Rowe
Guest
Joe Rowe

Great article, great photos.

Everyone reading Jonathan’s story should call (503) 823-SAFE and report their own story with Broadway. It will take 45 seconds and save lives and limbs.

All those illegal right turns on red should be getting a warning or citation. Or just park and older police car at the corner. Put a sandwich board on the hood that says “No right on red”. It uses humor and people will change. Officer Picket, are you reading this?

Steve B
Guest

Broadway is the perfect candidate for a true cycletrack treatment. Imagine riding a cycletrack the entire distance of Broadway on both sides of the river?

The most treacherous section of Broadway for me is the entire West side until you get to PSU. The skinny bike lane is entirely in the door zone, and it’s the route I take when I haven’t had my morning coffee.. to make sure my heart is pounding hard by the time I get to work.

If we started planning it today, it would probably be 5 years until we saw it implemented. I’d imagine funding is a significant hurdle.

The other issue with East Broadway is that the timing of the lights does not favor bike traffic. I find myself waiting for light cycles that last forever, with no cars in sight. This is the sort of thing that inspires non-compliance, I hope when they finish the streetcar work they take a good look at making it easy for people on bikes to get to where they need to go efficiently.

Thanks for covering this, Jonathan!

Joe Rowe
Guest
Joe Rowe

Also, Please call Grace in the Mayor’s office. I just called. She’s the one who can make things happen if people complain formally. A blog in isolation is just about useless. In life there are passengers, drivers, and activists. Don’t ride/drive with the herd.

Pick up your cell phone can call Grace (503) 823-4740

Paul
Guest
Paul

My thoughts on the Broadway bike signal:

1. The advance stop bar isn’t regressed enough, nor is it highly visible. It should be pulled back further, and continue across all lanes, and more clearly marked. This should be 20 feet or so from the intersection, making it much less likely that they’ll creep up all that way to make a right on red.

2. The crosswalk too should be pulled back and striped with those large bars, making even more clear that you need to be stopped there.

3. Take the bike signal off the pole across the street. It doesn’t need to be there. Drivers aren’t accustomed to bike signals, and to anyone with less than great vision just looks like it may be a green right turn signal. It really only needs to be down low right next to the bike lane (where bikes stop), not across the intersection.

4. As for when cars are turning right, and bikes are waiting, there should be more separation from traffic to prevent large rigs from clipping people. At least 3 feet, with a curb, island, pole, etc. physically deterring intrusion into the cycle lane.

As for bikes not stopping on that right turn, why not just build a simple way for them to do it safely? If they’re doing it now, they’re going to keep doing it. Block traffic from turning right onto Wheeler with a small curb and also for intrusion into the bike lane. It would act just as european cycle tracks work – there are no stop signs or stop lights for bikes turning right from one bike path to another. If the majority is already turning right without stopping, then maybe we should rethink the flow.

bobcycle
Guest
bobcycle

Just got back from taking the Broadway route west. Stopped to observe for about 10 minutes. In that time observed most motorists and people on bikes obeying the lights. Saw 2 cars turn right on red after stopping. Saw 2 cars go straight (on Green) from left hand “right turn only” lane. But the scariest thing I observed was 2 cars and a large fuel truck (all at different times) blow through a RED without even slowing down and making the right turn even though the signal for turning right was RED. They all were turning from the left most Right-turn-only lane, and apparently thought the Green arrow light for straight thru traffic applied to them? Luckily there were no cyclists at the time. I would be real cautious in this area if it were on my daily commute route.

Steve Hoyt-McBeth
Guest

Great coverage Jonathan. This is a doozy of a roadway with a boatload of car and bike traffic. After the Rose Quarter got tamed for bikes, I switched my commute to stay off of Broadway and I enjoy my ride so much more.

BURR
Guest
BURR

@ #17: Broadway IS NOT a canditate for a ‘true cycle track treatment’ because of the great numbers of intersections along the street.

Please, find another street along a canal with much more limited intersections for your cycle track.

Paul
Guest
Paul

Burr: In fact I think properly designed, a cycletrack could work better with those intersections, but it may require removal of a number of parking spots at the end of each block. Sounds like a double-win 🙂

Paul
Guest
Paul

Note, I did say ‘properly designed.’

Stig
Guest
Stig

Make the traffic engineers ride through the intersection and then swear its safe. Then again with their mother during the morning commute.

We need a law to bar these engineers from putting bike lanes (or any other lane for straight through traffic) to the right of right turn lane(s).

And don’t flashing red lights typically mean the same thing as a stop sign at intersections? Perhaps another reason for confusion.

Whyat
Guest
Whyat

Portland needs to enforce cars making turns on ‘No turn on red’ intersections (this happens all over town like nowhere else I’ve ever lived) and on bikes disregarding stop signs and red lights. It sounds like this intersection needs a ton of enforcement all the way around, and it both mediums are targeted no one can cry about the other one being ignored.

beth h
Guest

I just called the Mayor’s office to tell them why I avoid riding on Broadway — and that, as a result, I don’t do much shopping at any businesses located along that street.

jered
Guest
jered

Yep, Broadway is a mess, but when I get on the bridge I feel so excited to be alive and grateful for the life I’m still living.

On a serious note, you could look at it in another way. Riding a bike through this stretch of Broadway you use the level of attention and care that you should ALWAYS use when operating a vehicle (pedal or motor), and maybe that is good. I’m always asking myself where am I in relation to the car next to me, what is my way out to avoid and accident, what is the stopping distance given my speed, what is the cyclist or car three or four up the road doing, how long has that light been green, what is behind me etc. I should always be thinking about this when in transit!

Andrew Seger
Guest
Andrew Seger

I really hate all the “no right on red” signs. They’re the typical old school thinking about urban design. People will do what they’re used to, which is turning right on red here in Oregon, and ignore all the urban clutter. Not to mention it creates a false sense of security for people on bikes, and the city can do things like put a bike lane on the wrong side of two turn lanes and then say as long as everyone follows the law it wont be a problem.

We really would be better off with either nothing or sharrows in the proper lanes on Broadway. I actually think a cycletrack in the middle of broadway is also a pretty great idea. Perhaps a two way cycletrack with physical barriers all along broadway?

David
Guest
David

I was stopped on Broadway at Wheeler about to get on the Broadway Bridge in the bike lane the other day. A double trailer semi was making a right turn on red. The spacing looked sketchy to me and I had the foresight to move onto the sidewalk when I saw he was turning. Sure enough if I had not moved I would have been crushed underneath the second trailers tires.

Lenny Anderson
Guest
Lenny Anderson

The Broadway/Weidler couplet is too wide, hence too fast between the bridge and at least 16th, if not 24th.
Take out one entire motor traffic lane and build a real bike facility, cut the signal timing to 12-15 mph from its curent 25 mph plus, and (someday, add Streetcar to Hollywood.) Now we are talking about a fully functioning multimodal public right of way that serves all. We can start with the paint part…that is cheap and easy converting the right hand motor lane to bikes only. The current bike lane is actually the “door zone.”

Mindful Cyclist
Guest
Mindful Cyclist

I have to admit that one of the best things that has happened to me being a cyclist in Portland is when the Broadway Bridge closed and I had to find an alternate route. I recently took Broadway to get downtown and while the bike light was working fine, I was reminded of all the other things that make Broadway such a hassle. (I will say that I have been nearly right hooked numerous times on Broadway and MLK and I can’t think of one close call on Broadway and Williams in its old configuration.) I will gladly take the newfangled thing PDOT created to get to the Burnside Bridge over riding on Broadway. And, it is not that I found it incredibly dangerous–I just had to be more aware. I mostly found all of the truck traffic and intersections just annoying. I am just lucky that I live further out and have a lot more options compared to someone that lives closer in.

But, I will agree that a red light camera will help the motorist making illegal right hand turns. It is a $242 ticket. I also wonder if the two right hand turn lanes are really needed as well.

Brighton West
Guest
Brighton West

My first experience at Broadway and Williams was a disappointment – I got an immediate green bike signal and didn’t get to watch how the intersection flowed.

So I came back to sir and watch (I was one of two people observing – what a city we live in!)

Almost all cars did comply with the no turn on red sign. A couple didn’t, and a lot started to turn, noticed the sign and stopped. They are learning.

What I’d like to know is – will PBOT put the crosswalk in now that there’s no turn on red? It’s currently “closed.”

Giant Hogweed
Guest
Giant Hogweed

To avoid right hooks at Larrabee, cyclists are just going to have to ignore the new lane striping, and ride it like we used to ride it, which always worked fine for me, and stop at the red where the bike lane used to be (i.e., like there was a green box there).

Since I first saw this new striping at Larrabee, I actually have been reluctant to go downtown. The Broadway Bridge is the best route across the river for me, but I don’t want to have to deal with flouting the bike lane to put myself where I feel safe (although I will happily tell other people to do it.)

are
Guest

i will be interested to hear what burchfield and crew come up with at larrabee, but even if moving the bike lane to the curb inside a right turn lane is some kind of temporary arrangement, it is a very poor one.

my full rant here:
http://taking-the-lane.blogspot.com/2010/10/because-this-sht-matters.html

as far as the right hook at wheeler. never been a problem for me, because i do stop at the south end of flint and wait for an opening to take the full travel lane all the way down to the bridge. so i can never be to the right of anyone turning right.

(another reason the restriping from benton to larrabee is unhelpful. makes my taking the lane that much more obviously a political act.)

Todd Boulanger
Guest
Todd Boulanger

If roadway capacity concerns keep trumping bicyclist safety through less desirable lane placement…how about…a proposal for BTAs legislative agenda:
– ban right turn on red signals by motorized vehicles where bike lanes are placed to the right of right turn only lanes (for communities with over 50 000 population)
– restrict right turn movements on red by motorized vehicles where bike lanes are placed to the right of the through lane in the presence of a bicyclist in the said lane (or pedestrian)

Feel free to edit these for legislative adoption.

BURR
Guest
BURR

sorry, Todd, but those are band aid solutions which do nothing to alleviate similar problems during the green cycle of the light, same as the bike boxes.

DO IT BETTER PBOT.

jim
Guest
jim
Red Five
Guest
Red Five

#2: Yeah thats the spirit, stick it to all of us for not taking personal responsibility for your safety. Well that’s Portland.

Adam
Guest
Adam

I biked this intersection for the first time ever since the changes this week. My thoughts from a cyclist’s perspective:

1) Car drivers waited while I had the “green bike” signal, but only until I was through the intersection. Then they all started turning right, even although the “no turn on red” sign was still lit.

2) I felt very nervous about whether all traffic would honor the “no turn on red” sign.

Solutions –

The “no turn on red sign” is lit up, but it doesn’t FLASH, which it needs to do. I think the flashing white and red arrow “no right turn” sign for car traffic at the bike signal at the east end of the Steel Bridge is FAR more effective – I have yet to EVER see a motorist turn right illegally while that sign is flashing.

I would like to see the “no turn on red” sign flash on and off, rather than just lit up statically.

Adam
Guest
Adam

ps – one more thing – after clearing this crazy intersection, I very nearly got right hooked two three blocks later, at the intersection right before the Steel Bridge.

I was in the bike lane, heading straight, and a PBOT TRUCK (yes, a PBOT TRUCK!) turned right off Broadway onto interstate without checking it’s mirrors, or signaling. It slammed on its brakes to avoid hitting me in the bike lane as I had the green.

Clearly, it’s not just Broadway & Vancouver/Williams that is a problem intersection.

From my bike saddle, the entire Broadway/Weidler couplet is designed only for the “fast and furious” rider category from PBOT’s cyclist types graph it shows at every meeting ever.

Honestly, I don’t see how PBOT will *ever* get families with young children from NE heading downtown on their bikes, if this is what they have to deal with to cross the river.

are
Guest

“ever” is a very long time. i think the behind closed doors thinking on this is that eventually everything will be stepped down to 12 mph with timed signals and pedestrian crossings and bioswales at every corner. and we get rocket packs.

BURR
Guest
BURR

I’m thinking that PBOT isn’t going to want or have much incentive to make further changes to NE Broadway once the streetcar is finally finished. What we are seeing now is probably what’s going to be around for maybe not forever, but for quite a while.

John Lascurettes
Guest

The “no turn on red sign” is lit up, but it doesn’t FLASH, which it needs to do. I think the flashing white and red arrow “no right turn” sign for car traffic at the bike signal at the east end of the Steel Bridge is FAR more effective – I have yet to EVER see a motorist turn right illegally while that sign is flashing.

Sorry Adam. I’ve seen it many, many times. I’d estimate about 15-20% of time I’ve used the Steel Bridge going home. Still, I agree, it would have been more effective had they made the sign flash at Broadway & Williams.

bianca romane stamos
Guest
bianca romane stamos

A few weeks ago, riding in the suicide bike lane westbound at Larrabee, a 2 trailer semi missed right hooking me only because I anticipated the possibility therefore stopped for him. Even worse – he DID NOT USE HIS BLINKER!
Lesson learned: when auto traffic allows (at that particular intersection) I take up the entire right lane westbound to Larrabee. So far so good…

BURR
Guest
BURR

It’s not hard to see that the Broadway – Larrabee intersection is going to prove deadly to some unfortunate cyclist sooner or later.

Thanks PBOT and Portland Streetcar.

Not!

🙁

rrandom rider
Guest
rrandom rider

About 2 years ago I was traveling west on Broadway and had a car turn right onto Flint directly in front of me without signaling. I had to do a side hop to avoid hitting him and wound up going down and breaking my wrist, although I didn’t realize it for another couple of hours. The driver slowed way down and gave me a puzzled look as he continued on his way without ever stopping. I was in a tangled mess on the ground and didn’t see his license plate (dark blue BMW was all I noticed).

By the time I realized something was wrong with my wrist and went to the doctor it was too late to try to identify the driver. Because I have good insurance I never worried about it too much.

I wonder how many other people have had collisions along there and, like me, never reported it.

Jeremy
Guest
Jeremy

Your analysis of the Flint / Wheeler horseshoe is spot on. I’ve ridden down Broadway on my commute for a couple years now and I see these close calls often.

In my experience, it’s best to just assume that I’m invisible on NE Broadway.

resopmok
Guest
resopmok

are #35 –
ORS 814.420(3)(e) makes your taking of the lane here not a political act. It protects your decision to do so by being a an exception to the mandatory sidepath law. I would recommend this course of action to anyone approaching this intersection as a safe alternative to what was designed and striped. If everyone were to do so, it also sends a clear message to the city that we won’t accept unsafe design compromises like this.

are
Guest

i could be mistaken here, resopmok, but i believe the new configuration no longer forces the right turn, which would take you out of the (3)(e) exception. will ride it again in the next day or two to check it out.