(File photo)
Overlook neighborhood resident Olivia Rebanal was one of 27 Portlanders who kicked off a month on a Low-Car Diet Monday at Pioneer Courthouse Square.
The Flexcar-sponsored program aims to, “show local residents that not owning a car, or downsizing by a car, is more than possible in cities such as Portland with numerous transportation options”.
For Rebanal, who has two young children and job in NW Portland, one of those options was to go by bike. Carting her two kids around town on two-wheels presents challenges, but as a fit, experienced bicyclist who is committed to riding instead of driving she was up for it.
Until yesterday.
Rebanal is one of the founders of UrbanMamas.com, (a blog and online community for local moms) and she shared her harrowing first day on the Low-Car Diet with her readers.
She attempted to run errands, get to work, and cart both of her daughters all over town (which included a trip to Sellwood Park) with a family bike train of: single bike, tag-along, and trailer.
Doing it all by bike would be tough, but Rebanal decided it was the best option:
“I could take transit or walk, right? But, I thought about it. This is the summer time. The girls have a different place to be every day. Our schedule is varied as we romp around and enjoy summer concerts in this neighborhood and that. Having a vehicle, albeit a web of bikes, seems like the way to go.”
“Panting and sweating” down the Springwater Corridor, she began to have doubts about being a “biking family” and weighed her options:
“I thought: maybe we just CANNOT be a biking family if we are riding with just one parent and two children. A double tag-along? They don’t seem to make them (too unsafe!). A family tandem with the front sized for a parent and the rear sized for a child? Cha-ching! We’re talking $2,000, minimum!”
And then things got worse:
“CRASH. BAM. BOOM. I felt something slip loose, then I saw my sweet Philly and her tag-along, separated from me and my bike. Her tag-along had come loose, and she had landed on her side, and she was skidding along, her body as the friction to slow…I tossed my bike to the side and ran to them.”
For some reason no one stopped to help:
“…in the middle of the Esplanade, while bikers of all sorts zipped passed us from every direction. Bikers in lycra, bikers in khakis – no one was stopping to help a mother, her bleeding child, and her crying second child. I shouted at the Willamette: “WHY IS NO ONE STOPPING FOR US??!”
Eventually she made it home, but now Rebanal has her doubts that her bike is an adequate family vehicle option:
“Tomorrow, we’ll take the bus…As a family, we love to bike – all around town and even beyond. We are second-guessing whether family biking can be a reality on a day-to-day basis…We hate to turn in the bike, but I think we’ll have to give our wheels a rest for a bit.”
I share this story because I know some of you will have some advice and encouragement for the Rebanal Family. Let’s hear it!
Thanks for reading.
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Oh Olivia! Philly I hope you are okay. That is terrible that no one stopped. But don\’t give up yet.
I found an used triple tandem (Bike Friday) for $1000. They are out there. Keep the faith.
And thanks for being strong – and giving up that car.
Cheers, Janis
Shame on those who didn\’t stop. Philly, I hope you\’re okay!
Another option is an Xtra-cycle with a tag along.
It\’s a shame that Burley no longer makes their Piccolo tag-along (for now at least, when I talked to them they seemed to hint that they may do it again).
The Piccolo is far superior to any other tag along. The attachement is super sturdy and the kid doesn\’t tilt off to the side like they often do with a lot of the other tag-alongs.
You can get them off of craigslist but they go fast!
As far as general encouragement; hang in there. There is a definite learning/mishap/misadventure curve when you make a bike your primary form of transportation.
Shame to hear that nobody would stop, disgusting actually. Kids definitely complicate it, and sometimes there aren\’t enough hours in the day to get yourself and them where they need to be by bike. I have great respect for Olivia taking this on, it\’s a lot of work, on top of being a working mom.
I think just knowing that biking as a family is an option, and exercising that option is a step in the right direction. One less trip by car is still one less car.
On behalf of those who ignored you, I am ashamed.
You chose a very difficult task, and I admire your attempt. I hope you find a combination of modes that works for you.
Ditto Nick\’s comments…props to you, Olivia.
And don\’t give up the thought of getting a tandem. You can sometimes get a good second hand one for less than $1000. The tag along can be attached to the back of that. There are kits available that will raise the pedals up in back so that a child can stoke. You move them down, then off, as the child grows.
Avoid department store tandems though. They\’re not going to last long.
There are plenty of folks here who can offer assistance, should you decide to go that route.
I have absolutely no experience hauling kids anywhere, but the fact that Olivia and family is sticking to the challenge is inspiring. And while a couple of hiccups are probably expected, a tag-along detaching on the Esplanade and no one stopped to help! Yikes!
We went car free a couple of months ago, and I think the best advice would be: Flex it.
Granted I feel a little weird suggesting going by car, but the Flexcar option is pretty great for when you have a lot to do and a lot to carry. Its super easy to use, and they are everywhere.
Save the bike for the easy stuff, and you will probably find yourself using it more and more as time goes on. Maybe Clever Cycles has a bakfiet loaner program?
Olivia, maybe I\’m overestimating your 6.5 year old\’s abilities, but why not put her on her own bike, and your younger daughter on the tag-along?
Sorry to hear about your first-day mishaps, but from the previous posts, it sounds like plenty of people in Portland would gladly have stopped. Just nobody who was on the Esplanande that day….
I rode past Olivia and her daughters this morning. I waved to the daughter on the Trail-A-Bike and she cracked a smile. Good to see spirits are still up and that they\’re back on the pedal-powered rig.
It is disapointing that no one stopped to help you on Springwater, but not surprising. That\’s unfortunate.
Hang in there. Like anything, it just takes some work and experience to get it dialed in.
My wife makes 90% of her trips by bike, and those include hauling the kids — 4 and 6 — to school, swim practice, soccer, tae kwan do, shopping, etc. The bike/tagalong/trailer works great.
Lycra-clads and khaki-clads on a MUP didn\’t stop? Can\’t say it\’s entirely shocking, though that doesn\’t make it any less disgusting. I stay off the Esplanade specifically because in my personal experience, a lot of MUP users (not ALL, mind you, but enough to be noticeable and soil my opinion of MUPs) have no regard for the presence of other users. Maybe it\’s because there are no cars to compete with and suddenly it turns into a competition between what would ordinarily be vulnerable road users, because nobody feels threatened by something outweighing them by several tons and thus no need to be careful or attentive to their surroundings?
Or maybe it\’s just that there was a heavy concentration of cold-hearted jerks passing at the moment. Some folks just never get involved…out of the three crashes I\’ve had, I\’ve been helped only once (and had some kids and their parents just point and laugh at another). I\’ve even been in the position of getting off public transit and finding a guy collapsed on the sidewalk having spasms while several folks just walked on by without saying a word. Fortunately I stopped, and then someone a few feet behind me stopped as well, and we both stuck with him until the ambulance arrived. I\’m sure many of you can recount similar stories completely contrasting concern and apathy for total strangers. Some people just don\’t care. 🙁
Whatever the case, I hope Olivia can be re-assured that a ton of us cyclists (and other human beings as well!) are indeed good people and would have stopped to help in anyway possible if only we\’d been there at the time. Not to mention that she\’s brave for making such a serious effort under complex circumstances and shouldn\’t stop reminding herself of that, either. 🙂
I think that as long as you make a valid effort to make use of the bikes and public transit on a regular basis and then fall back to the car when needed that you are still making a difference. The main problem with a lot of people is that all they want to do is use a car, regardless of whether or not biking is an option.
\”It is disapointing that no one stopped to help you on Springwater\”
It was on the Esplanade, not the Springwater. That\’s even worse. You\’d think with the volume of people on the Esplanade, that someone would\’ve stopped. Last time I had a problem on the Springwater, I had 3 cyclists ask if I had everything I needed, or if I was ok.
Comaraderie is one of the best features of cyclists – I hope this isn\’t an indicator that it\’s being lost. If we don\’t look out for each other, who will?
My wife passed along the urbanmomma post about this incident yesterday and I have to admit that on first read, I figured that had it been me tooling along the esplanade, I probably wouldn\’t have stopped to help either. I might have hollared a query of \”you OK?\” but I doubt I would have broken my stride unless asked to render aid.
What was Olivia expecting? Some bike riding knight to come in and make it all better?
Did she get eye contact with passing riders to show she needed assistance? Did she ask for help?
It doesn\’t sound like it was too awful of a spill and far be it from me to assume that somehow I know better than a mom of two how to address the situation.
Seriously, whether it seems intuitive or not, getting involved can often have worse consequences than not getting involved. And I\’m not talking legality here at all.
So unless Olivia and company were in obvious distress and in immediate need of first-response care, I find it completely understandable and appropriate that nobody stopped to render aid.
That said, good on the folks who are dabbling in car-free lives. As a father of two toddlers, I can totally appreciate the challenges involved.
The Rebenals have been close personal friends of our family for the last couple of years. Last time we all got together, Olivia and I had this exact conversation about how a single adult can schlep 2 kids that aren\’t able to ride long distances on their own bikes around safetly.
I\’ve got the same problem as we have 2 kids (6 & almost 4). It was fine when they were both in the Burley, but now that they are both on Trail-a-bikes, it makes it really difficult for one parent to do.
In our family, since our kids go to separate camp/schools my wife and I each take a kid/trail-a-bike combo. On days when one of us has to be at the office early or stay late, we are kind of forced to drive.
I do think though that this is a short period of time and the long term value is that our kids know that bikes are part of our life and witness us biking when possible. For the most part, they actually ask to \’go by bike\’ when given the choice of biking or driving someplace. Hopefully we are planting the seeds for the future.
BTW: Olivia – I am super proud of you for doing this and I am so sorry you were ignored by other trail users. Kendall wants to see Philly soon :).
Donald:
\’So unless Olivia and company were in obvious distress and in immediate need of first-response care, I find it completely understandable and appropriate that nobody stopped to render aid.\’
You are saying that seeing a crying, screaming & bleeding child on the path, a detatched trail a bike and a mother crying for people to stop, you find it understandable and appropriate that no one stopped?
You sir have a thick skin – especially for a father of 2…
I\’d have stopped.
Clevercycles rents a Bakfeits for $45 per day. That may be a lot for every day, but once in a while it ain\’t bad. I plan to rent one when my mom visits – she\’s too old to ride.
What rixtir said.
Daniel,
I may have a thick skin. I can own that. But I also know how events can grow in the retelling.
From Olivia\’s rather dramatic version, I don\’t see that the bleeding was evident to passing riders. I also don\’t see that Olivia asked anyone to stop.
If I\’m wrong, then I\’m wrong. But since you know Olivia perhaps you can ask her if she did indeed ask people (and not just the river) to stop. I for one highly doubt that anyone just rode by a mother asking for help.
If it\’s evident that someone needs help, sure, I\’ll stop. But if it\’s not evident then I\’m not going to assume that my help is needed.
Know your equipment. Know your limits. Carry a cell phone. And always be prepared to take the worse case scenario into your own hands. It\’s as true on the mountain as it is on the esplanade.
This should be a story about the folks who are trying to go without cars. Instead, it\’s turned into what I feel is a baseless indictment of rider behavior that, to me, is baseless given the source material.
Just because the media says we\’re a callous lot doesn\’t mean we have to believe it.
Donald,
I don\’t think Olivia expected \”Some bike riding knight\”. I think she expected some simple kindness. A detached trailabike and bike trailer with crying children should be enough to warrant some common courtesy. I live in Portland because its the kind of place where people stop and ask you if you\’re okay when you fall off your bike.
I\’m surprised nobody has suggested a dutch cargo bikes by the folks over at Clever Cycles yet. I know they\’re expensive, but if you\’re planning on living life on a bike, especially with kids, these bikes are the only way to roll. I went and test rode one a couple weeks ago in anticipation of having kids one day, and I found it much easier to handle than I expected. Plus, they fit two kids and groceries with ease.
If it\’s evident that someone needs help, sure, I\’ll stop. But if it\’s not evident then I\’m not going to assume that my help is needed.
I\’d figure a screaming kid on a fallen-over and a strangely-detached trail-a-bike collapsed in the middle of the path is indicative that something\’s gone wrong enough to the point where it\’s probably worthwhile to stop and make sure the injuries aren\’t serious, that the injured isn\’t immediately engaging in significant extertion following the incident and risking hurting themselves further without being aware of it due to adrenaline and other hormones released by the body in an emergency, and that the trail-a-bike isn\’t critically damaged to the point of making it unsafe for use upon re-attachment.
I dunno. Maybe I have thin-skin.
I would\’ve stopped, too. I have stopped, or at least asked many times.
Keep on riding, Donald. Eventually you\’ll get back to your lonely mountain.
Donald?
You wouldn\’t have stopped just to ask if she was okay?
You have to be asked for help?
On the scene, in that first moment, she hasn\’t even had enough time to know whether she NEEDS help or not. And you would just cruise away.
sheeesh. words fail.
While I\’m perfectly happy to be the bad guy, I feel the responses here sort of back me up.
Almost to a one, folks here say they would have stopped given the description of the accident as published in Olivia\’s words. And I believe that these responses mirror the sentiments of society at large. Heck, catch me on a good day and I might even stop.
Which leads me to believe that at least one rider would have stopped had the actual incident been as bad as related on the urbanmomma post.
So I\’m left to either believe that every passing rider was oblivious to evident trauma, or that riders passed because it was not evident that this spill warranted assistance.
I\’m going to keep the faith and cling to the latter.
If anyone was actually on-scene and wants to relate their experience, I\’m happy to consider it.
All the rest is just conjecture on our part.
The thing is this: I have had many flats on the Springwater and I think I remember only twice was I ever asked if I had all the tools I neeeded, or if I needed any help. I\’ve seen similar things happen in public similar to what N.I.K. mentioned in a previous post.
So it is not so hard for me to believe that what Olivia said is true. Furthermore (and most importantly IMO), I have absolutely no reason to NOT believe what she wrote.
The gruff-lone-wolf thing is annoying, btw.
I would have had to stop. Just so I could sleep well.
It is too bad the Bakfiets are so spendy. They really are the perfect solution. Perhaps the welders who build all those tall bikes can start designing a pdx grown bakfiet.
Stay strong Olivia!
I think if I saw a mommy stopped on a trail with a crying child, I\’d probably ride by UNLESS she looked like she needed help.
If I saw a mommy stopped on a trail with a crying, BLOODY child, a broken tag-along strewn across the trail, and an obviously distraught mommy crying out to the river for help, that would be a different case…
Pretty basic, really.
Oh god honey, I\’m sorry! I hope Philly is ok, and I was very disappointed to learn that in such a public place with so many cyclist nobody stopped to help you. Props on giving it a shot and props on not reverting directly back to a car after such an incident. I hope that in time (perhaps as your girls grow) you\’ll be willing to give bikes another try as a primary mode of transport, and in the mean time I hope you still use them some of the time.
\”Perhaps the welders who build all those tall bikes can start designing a pdx grown bakfiet.\”
Pabst-fueled lunatics building family/cargo bikes sounds awesome!
You may be onto something though…
\”Perhaps the welders who build all those tall bikes can start designing a pdx grown bakfiet.\”
A Portland-made bakfiets is in the works already. It\’s called Metrofiets… you must have forgotten this post.
They tell me the first rideable prototype is ready…. I\’m set to pay them a visit and share photos/story soon….
Donald,
That no one stopped to help means nothing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese
Donald is right,
\”Know your equipment. Know your limits. Carry a cell phone. And always be prepared to take the worse case scenario into your own hands. It\’s as true on the mountain as it is on the esplanade.\”
Its true. Just last week during a ride home from work I had a very dicey experience on the Esplanade. I was trapped in an avalanche while crossing a crevasse! I won’t bore you all with the details but it involved the removal of my arm with an allen wrench, a spare tube, and some lycra.
Coop, post 34:
Oh my GOD!!!!!!!! That sounds traumatic! I hope your bike is OK!
Coop,
You are nominated for the bestest comment of the day.
Yes, the dutch style cargo bikes are worth it as Jarrod stated in this case. The benefits in this case are:
1. Your kids are in front of you instead of behind you. It\’s much easier to hear them in front of you.
2. If you are transporting two kids, your groceries can go on the back rack, your kids on the front bucket. If you have one kid, the groceries can go in the front with your child.
3. The kids are sitting inside something that\’s solidly linked to your bike – nothing swinging behind you.
4. If you\’re making the full commitment of doing everything on the bike, make the financial commitment of using the right tool (a cargo bike) for the job (do everything around town with kids).
Just some thoughts.
Yo, Coop (#34)
Did anyone stop? No? Didn\’t think so! But, hey, you could spare yourself all that dinkin\’ around with the Allen wrench if you carried an air compressor and an impact wrench around with you.
Yes a bakfiets is the way to go…perhaps Todd and Dean (or their wives) are reading this post today.
Too bad Flexcar did not add a flex-bakfiets (shared) to the low car diet program this year…it could have been branded and wrapped in their logo too.
As for the tag-a-long…there was a report on the local TV news last night (or the night before) about a recall of a name brand model due to the failure of the connector to the the bike. (I am sorry I did not see what the brand was.)
Todd,
Olivia\’s post on Urbanmamas has all the details on the recall. Sounds like that may have been her problem.
Coop,
You might have saved that arm had you been wearing wool instead of lycra. But I hate to blame the victim.
Everyone else,
Perhaps I came off a bit callous. From now on I pledge that any time I see a three-vehicle pileup amongst the pilings, I\’ll make sure to check and see if aid is needed.
Thanks to all the support out there. It was surely a scary thing. We were all really shaken up whilst strewn and bloody on the Esplanade. We were in obvious distress. I was not explicit to passers-by and I did not emphatically state \”I need help.\” My bad. I did have a phone and was busy trying to call my husband and a few friends, which was when I noticed bikers just passing by. While I was calling around, I couldn\’t comfort my girls, nor could I manage to collect my bike or tag-along to scoot ourselves neatly to the side. While I did not expect a biking knight on a bakfiet to rescue all of us and haul us home, I was definitely surprised that no one had stopped in those initial moments.
Someone did stop, after several bikers went by us and after my exclamation. Then, another couple on their road bikes stopped to simply chat with my girls, engage them, and comfort them while I tried to figure next steps. It was so helpful and it calmed me and the girls. They gave me zip-ties so we could reattach the tag-along and walk ourselves up the ramp to the train. The solo biker offered to walk with me up the ramps. I thought that was kind. Eventually, me husband drove down in the car to fetch us.
As Jason mentioned above, we were on our bikes (the train) again today. We went to pick up a new adapter set and we\’ll look at getting a safety upgrade for the Adams Trail-a-Bike.
Thank you for suggestions above. We want a way to have our daughters provide some pedal power for us since they love to bike so much, so we haven\’t considered an xtracycle or bakfiet. Our 6.5 yr old is not prepared for the speed and skill to ride solo on the bike lanes, though we do bike through our neighborhood with her on her own bike quite often, and she is practicing control, faster paces, and signaling.
We\’ll be heading to Clever Cycles to try out a Bike Friday Family Tandem. We are also considering other tandems, where we can adjust the rear seat with an adapter to make it suitable for smaller ones.
We are often out and about on the bikes, so we will see you out there! Maybe we\’ll be on a family tandem with the tag-along attached… Safe riding to y\’all.
I\’m glad to hear, after all of the previous posting got me so riled, that some nice folks did eventually stop and offer some sort of assistance, and that everyone is ok.
On a non-first-response topic, I have been car free since long before we had our daughter. Being on bikes and busses and feet has caused us to keep a different schedule than car people. We don\’t have twelve different things to do every day because it would kill us to try and get everywhere. we keep it pretty close to home most of the time, with special excursions for farther off places. I don\’t know if this helps, but folks going car free shouldn\’t try to keep a car based schedule. it\’s too hectic and nerve wracking. keeping it simple is the best part, and takes a lot of stress off.
Flex bakfiets someone said? sounds good to me.
Okay, I\’ll admit it: I don\’t stop for people that are talking on a cell phone. I don\’t generally look closely enough after seeing the cell phone to determine if there is skin damage/bike damage/disturbed facial expressions… (That said, if the person parks their bike on it\’s side in the middle of the path, that would probably get me to take notice…)
I have asked/stopped in other situations, (and given away a couple patches and changed a tire too,) but if I see someone on a cell phone, I assume that they got a phone call, and stopped so that they could talk on the phone, and that is all fine and dandy, and I\’m not going to interrupt them just to verify that that is indeed what is going on…
I think biking a child around can show a parent\’s love more than driving.. especially yesterday and today.
\”I\’m sweating for you dear\”
I am with Donald.
I would not stop simply seeing a crying kid on the esplanade and a mommy on a cell phone. If I saw someone injured and obviously in need of aid, I would of course stop. That being said I see stressed out moms on cell phones with screaming kids in tow every time I am on the Esplanade.
Also now it appears several people did stop. Just not quick enough?
Congratulations on being car free, please keep it up. Just try not and dump all your crap on the rest of us, mmmkay?
Ouch, steve. A little harsh on that last line, don\’t you think? Everybody has a bad day now and again. I hope folks are a bit more kind to you when you have yours.
I could probably launch into a diatribe about the anonymity of the internet and a general lack of compassion that allows, but I\’m guilty of it myself at times. I just try to remember to apologize when I step a little far.
Wow, as a single mommy to two who is wanting to drive less and bike more, this was a really disheartening thing to read. I totally feel her pain – the mother trying to do the right thing by her kids, the desperate moment, the fear that one of her babies is hurt, the even bigger looming fear of THANK GOD THIS DIDNT HAPPEN ON A BIKE LANE OF A BUSY STREET that permeates every cell of your body in that moment, trying to put yourselves back together with two people who are even more scared and who look to you to solve everything. And I will bet money that at least a third of those people who rode by without stopping shot her dirty looks for being in their way. Ugh, it\’s daunting, it really is. Hearing some of the reactions here makes you jsut want to jump back in your nice safe car with the nice safe carseats.
on an other note, the bakefiets thing seems like it would work really well for toddler/preschooler kids, but at a certain age, you have to kind of transition them to riding – what kind of exercise are the kids getting in that trailer? I guess as much as they do sittin gin a car. Okay, answered my own question. Moving on.
I was on one of the biggest pedalpalooza rides a few weeks ago, and I stopped with a friend to help a rider on the side of the road. It turned out that I knew the person somewhat, and knew some of their friends who were also in the ride. I watched those people ride by. I know most of them would have stopped especially her roommate if they had recognized that she needed help. I think that places like the Esplanade, and huge bike rides just have too much visual information for most human brains to handle. People aren\’t always being cruel when they don\’t stop, they just can\’t always recognize the situation amongst all of the other stuff going on on the Esplanade. I personally slow down to about 1/3 normal speed, and still my brain has very little left over after traking all the people, bicycles, even big rigs, moving at different speeds, and directions on the Esplanade. I would really love to believe that I would stop for someone who crashed, but I\’m not sure I would even notice.
We have four kids, and all ride bikes. The youngest is five. He rode from Hawthorne to Oaks Park and back when he was four. Several times. We never used a trailer. Admittedly, there were years we didn\’t bike with the kids much, but with the youngest ina seat behind me or my wife, it worked. We rode lead and sweep to make sure the kids were in order, and staying away from traffic and other hazards.
As for the Esplanade, I think the reasons foilks didn\’t stop have been explained above. Biker or pedestrian, people have flaws, and people who are kidless might have less inclination to stop and assist. I mention this becuase you mentioned bikers, and many of the bikers passing by may have been kidless, and hence more hesitant (through lack of comfort in helping with kids) to stop. Not a ligitimate reaon at all, but perhaps one of many reasons.
My advice: get the 6.5 year old on a bike and keep a close eye on her. Take it slow and choose your routes and do not try to do too much. Sometimes you must have a car or use transit.
There\’s a place for everyone on the Esplanade, well, except for bicyclists who ride too fast!
\”What was Olivia expecting? Some bike riding knight to come in and make it all better?\”
Well, yes. And based on my experience, there seems to be a tradition that, by and large, bicyclists are SUPPOSED to at least stop and ask if anything is needed. I do this All The Time. It\’s what I would hope any self-respecting bicyclist to do for me. There is a history to this mindset and it did not pop up overnight.
Bicyclists have been helping each other since they were called \”scorchers\” and being chased down by the law and chastised by preachers from the pulpit. We help each other out. We fix each other\’s flats. We help our fellow riders find a bus when the bike\’s beyond immediate repair. We look out for each others\’ stolen mounts. And we encourage each other to keep riding!
Someone should have stopped. Had I been there I know that I would have.
Kudos to Olivia and her family for giving this a go! Don\’t stop! And let us know what you need from the bicycling community to make your efforts pay off.
I sold my car 18 years ago, when my nieces were still little kids and I was sometimes responsible for getting them to daycare and playdates. I found a used trailer, and later I took them riding on errands with me to teach them bike safety. Today both of my nieces ride their own bikes on errands to shopping, work, movies and night classes. Both are in their early 20\’s and neither of them owns a car. One of them says she has no plans to buy a car for \”at least several years\”, and cites her still-carless aunt as an example.
It CAN be done, and it CAN be done with children. Keep it up and don\’t lose heart!
Steve, the last time I checked – you get to choose which posts you read. She didn\’t \”dump\” her crap on you – you decided to read her story.