A few words about comments
Posted by Jonathan Maus (Editor) on August 6th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
For some reason, in recent months, some of the comment threads on this site have become filled with negativity, personal insults, and conduct unbecoming of respectful and mature conversation.
There have been over 55,000 comments left on this site in the past three years and I have generally had a pretty open and loose style for moderating them.
Amazingly, even though we’ve dealt with many contentious and emotional issues, I have only had to edit and/or completely delete a very, very small percentage of those comments. I tell people all the time that the comments on BikePortland.org are one of the most valuable components of this site. I feel that is due in large part because I have worked hard to create an environment of respect that is (luckily) heeded by the majority of readers.
But lately, I feel as though a unnecessarily critical and negative tone is creeping in, and based on feedback I’ve received from several people that I respect, that tone is driving away readers.
Contrary to what you might think, this site is not an open, public forum. BikePortland.org is not a non-profit organization. This is a private corporation (under the name of Pedaltown Media) that I founded with the intent to “inform and inspire”. My goal is to create the largest tent possible and have everyone feel welcome to come on in.
I don’t have an official comment policy, I don’t like rules (because I like to break them when necessary), and I require no log-in to leave comments. I don’t want to do anything that might stifle your opinions or your feeling that you can respond quickly and candidly about the issues. That style has served me well for three years now and I hope to continue in that vein into the future.
Don’t get me wrong. I welcome opposition and criticism, but there’s a way to accomplish that without resorting to name-calling and off-topic diatribes.
The Golden Rule of commenting is to act like we’re all having a nice, social get-together in my living room. Please conduct yourself the same way you would if we were all present, face-to-face.
Remember, a large part of this site’s success has been the quality of your comments. It would be an immense loss — not just to me personally but I think for the entire community — if that ever changed.
Thanks. I welcome your feedback and questions.
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August 6th, 2008 13:27
Well done,
A delicate and ticky discussion.
August 6th, 2008 13:27
well said.
August 6th, 2008 13:36
Reading through the posts recently, especially the ones regarding injuries, have been really disheartening. Thanks in advance for getting us all back on track.
August 6th, 2008 13:44
Nicely put.
August 6th, 2008 13:49
Thanks, Jonathan.
I think your golden rule is a helpful visual aid to facilitate productive conversations that will raise the quality and quantity of dialogue that will improve bicycling and this great city.
Alison
August 6th, 2008 13:56
Jonathan, the way you handle some of the comments, and people, you have to deal with here is nothing short of amazing. It's always even-handed and respectful, yet never lacks a clear expression of your views. I could not do this nearly as well as you. Given the community value of your business, you deserve accolades for that alone.
Perhaps slightly more frequent reminders of the Golden Rule of Commenting would ensure things don't get too far off track. For instance, it says below this box (as I type): "Comment moderation is enabled. Your comment may take some time to appear." Maybe you could add a brief note after that? Or just drop in a reminder in the comments as necessary? Or perhaps this will all straighten itself out...
August 6th, 2008 13:57
Thanks for addressing this, Jonathan. Increasingly, I'm feeling more and more disgusted with some of the things I read on here. I'm almost to the point where I can't read any comments, and need to stick to just the article. Naturally, this would be unfortunate, as there's usually a lot of good discussion going on in there.
Thanks for doing all of this, my friend. I know it takes a lot of time and energy to produce something like this, and it must be tough to have to watch all this negativity.
August 6th, 2008 13:59
Thank you Jonathan for facilitating. You are providing a platform for perspectives to those of us impacted by the growing transportation issues both affected by and affecting the cycling community.
As a newer reader with few postings (mainly because I enjoy the educational quality from those more well versed), I am one that has run the risk of being alienated by some of the ugliness ('passive agressive', 'tacit death threats'?!?), but I am encouraged by your stance.
PayPal on the way - keep up the good work.
August 6th, 2008 14:01
Jonathon.. spot on. This board is the result of your effort and you have the right to shape it as you see fit.
Consider requiring a log in.A And perhaps a preview option so I can look and see how it will look when posted. If one lacks the courage to own their views, the opinion is merely an opinion. If I put my name on it, I am offering something i value.
We are not a monolithic community. I expect an array of views on any topic. I value them, as I glean a clearer view as a result of everyones contributions. At the same time, I would encourage everyone to read what they have written before they hit the send button. What may have felt witty as I write it may end up cruel or demeaning when I read it.
It still holds that I should have my name on it, for if I am on point, I know I have added to the conversation. If I am not, I might need to be called on it.
August 6th, 2008 14:06
Here, here, Jonathan. Two words: "be constructive!"
Personal attacks and rants just puts us at the same level as the journalists at the Sorrygroanian. (oops, is that negativity again?)
August 6th, 2008 14:11
"s a newer reader with few postings ... I am one that has run the risk of being alienated by some of the ugliness"
thanks for sharing postmoves, folks like you are one of the main reasons I felt it necessary to address this issue right now.
--
joe adamski, re: anonymous comments
I don't mind anonymous comments... the content is what I focus on, not whether someone leaves a name or not.
and yes, i would like to have a good preview function... have had one in the past but the technology was not perfect so i ditched it.
--
forseti: that's a good idea... and I've done that in the past... however i find it tricky to write just the right words. i don't like to tell people how to comment or have them misinterpret what I mean by saying, "please use respect when commenting," or something like that. i will work on something and see how it goes.
August 6th, 2008 14:14
It's a sign of the success of this site as a community forum that you have to address this issue, and I too hope that the comments can remain as open as possible. You've done an amazing job so far of setting the tone.
I like Joe's suggestion of a Preview step before sending it off to the ether.
Speaking for myself I know that I like to think that I am reasoned and polite but that it is very easy for the cleverness and wit of someone who is gentle in person to come across as mean spirited and snide in a bare written format. Second looks are always a good idea.
August 6th, 2008 14:17
It is unfortunate that as a website or blog with comments gains more and more popularity, there tends to be an increase in the number of negative commnets.
This website regulary sees articles with 100+ comments after it, many of them constructive, but obviously there have been enough negative comments that you felt obligated to write an entire article about the issue.
Let's hope that people people begin to respec each other on this site, because if we cannot even respect each other here, then how are we going to do it on the roads where lives are actually at stake.
August 6th, 2008 14:23
But long, wordy posts are still OK? Whew!
The Golden Rule of commenting is to act like we’re all having a nice, social get-together in my living room. Please conduct yourself the same way you would if we were all present, face-to-face.
Ayep, well said. And well-illustrated here (excuse the re-post):
http://xkcd.com/438/
There's a rule I've heard about angry email: write it, put it away, then look at it an hour later. It's amazing how well that lets one prune one's anger from an email, because you see the anger for how damaging and useless it is. Works for forum posts too.
August 6th, 2008 14:30
I believe that I’m probably one of the people you’re addressing, even though I don’t feel that I have engaged in personal insults. But I do know that my style of commenting is usually very blunt and critical. I personally don’t think that that is a bad thing: I actually find one of the great qualities of internet forums that it somehow brings this bluntness that allows for raw ideas and p.o.v. to be exposed directly, without all the ceremonies of other environments, where imo so-called civility and politeness more often than not prevent the potential richness of debates to take place. Many people, for example, would not feel comfortable openly expressing their contempt for stupid laws in public, but they may in the internet. So sometimes, I think, the content of an opinion itself can shock and offend people regardless of the form it is presented, especially when it’s about values. As I see it, there’s a difference between insulting and being blunt – but other people may not recognize that difference. And what if I actually feel negative? Niceness can be a bad thing – there are some good authors who denounced the tyranny of decorum which disallows critical thinking. Off-topic is also a matter of perspective since things are often about context and background.
Having said that, I’m aware that this is your website and that it is your right to censure or block my comments. I may not like it, but I definitely wouldn’t take offense. Feel free to do it and also to tell me when you don’t like it if you want. I say that because I may not always be able or even want to measure my form of expressing my opinion according to the average person’s sensibility – they certainly don’t measure theirs according to mine. I definitely don’t want to be a bad guest, but the job of judging how appropriate my comment is may just have to be up to you sometimes…
August 6th, 2008 14:31
B.C.:
Let's hope that people people begin to respec each other on this site, because if we cannot even respect each other here, then how are we going to do it on the roads where lives are actually at stake.
You bring up a good point: internet snarkiness and road rage share a similar dynamic. They both present a certain amount of anonymity, which frees people to let loose with a rage they wouldn't in more civil circumstances.
I've often though that being more civil online is good practice for becoming more civil on the road.
August 6th, 2008 14:32
Well said Jonathan. Now this would be a perfect excuse to have another bikeportland.org social hour. Let people have a chance to put names with faces again.
August 6th, 2008 14:35
Yes Please.
Thank you.
August 6th, 2008 14:37
Great Job!, shows leadership in a direction we all want to go, foward.
Thanks for all your hard work and the people out there that make this a great site.
Joe
August 6th, 2008 14:38
Personally I think the tone of your posts lately have become jaded and cynical.
The tone of your posts is why I'm removing this site from my RSS reader, not the comments.
August 6th, 2008 14:39
Right-on Jon.
I'm with Alf, the militant knee-jerk rants in the comments on bike portland are off-putting, as is some of the bike culture in Portland. But I live and ride in Portland, as I have in various U.S. cities and Amsterdam. Cycling in Amsterdam is mature, California cities are hit or miss, Atlanta is lethal, Portland is sublime.
But there are occasional bike/enemy-vehicle incidents which bring out the ranters. Thing is, I think it's mainly blog-rage. Motorists express contempt at cyclists, motorcyclists hate the 'cagers', cyclists sneer at skateboarders and everyone looks down on rollerbladers. There's enough vehicle bigotry to qualify Portland for Southern state status, even though most people in these categories also use one or more of the other vehicles they express contempt for.
But it's mostly in the comments. Sure you see stupid and dangerous people in all the above categories, but riding day-to-day in Portland is great--people are for the most part, friendly, courteous and laid-back. So please don't gauge Portland by the silly headlines and commenters, although if it keeps you from moving here, that's cool.
btw, in descending order I use bikes, motorcycles, and infrequently, my station wagon when I need something that won't fit on the other two.
Cross-posted to bikesocial.blogspot.com
August 6th, 2008 14:41
Thanks Jonathan. Just this morning, while carting the boys from Nopo to Sellwood on our bike train, I found myself getting alittle down about the bike community - all the while, cyclists were waving, being respectful of each other along the esplande and sharing the road with me ( and I know a tandem, trailabike, trailer combo can be hard to pass, follow behind and navigate around etc.) then I realized, it wasn't the actual bike experience in Portland I was upset/drained by, It was the negative, disrespectful and at times stand-offish comments made in recent posts, especially to people just coming to the game. So here's a sincere thanks for addressing this and alerting everyone egarding how we should treat each other - but this doesn't mean folks can't make fun of me, inject humor into posts and offer up spirited debate.
August 6th, 2008 14:42
well said!
August 6th, 2008 14:43
Here, here. There's already too much division in the community already.
Diogo: If other people regularly have difficulty distinguishing your comments from insults that should be a clue that you might adopt a different tone. It would serve to only enhance the interchanges you have with other people and make people more open to your ideas.
BTW: can you approve my forum account?
August 6th, 2008 14:44
I think the purpose behind logging in order to post is so that your comment is tied to you, a specific individual. However, that would only work if said individual was who they said they are. ie, we know that "Jesus Christ God of War" is who he says he is, but who's this Adamski fellow? Is he really the Joe I know? ;-)
Besides, I think that logins are prohibitive to new posters. Speaking only for myself, I wont hesitate to login to a site that I frequent, but will be less likely to register (and return to) a site that I'm new to.
I've always appreciated the light moderation, but there are always those that continually put the glass NEXT to the coaster. You can count their visits by the number of rings on the coffee table.
August 6th, 2008 14:46
If I may provide another blog as an example: Dave from Blazersedge runs a one of the best sports-related blogs I've read, and he is careful to moderate it so that the conversation in the comments doesn't get personal or ugly. He has a pretty simple and straightforward set of guidelines for conversation on the site, and he is not averse to banning those who ignore the guidelines. As a result, it's usually a pretty good read (at least it is if you like the Blazers). It might be worth thinking about, at the very least.
August 6th, 2008 14:54
Oh, and a preview feature would probably assist the dorks (who, me?) that leave stuff out and have to add follow ups!
Rule with a gentle heart but an iron fist.
August 6th, 2008 14:54
or you could have a conversation with Donna B. about how the BikeForums.net site is moderated...
August 6th, 2008 15:01
Thanks for the guidelines
I like this site due to its
"ear to the ground nature"
Please keep up the GoodWork
August 6th, 2008 15:07
Thank you Jonathan
August 6th, 2008 15:09
Have you considered going with the BoingBoing approach of disemvowelling comments that cross the line?
August 6th, 2008 15:11
Are there cocktails being served in your living room, Jonathon? I'd love an absolute grapefruit juice before I ride home.
Nice job on KBOO this am. And of course I agree with your request for civil posts, as do all civil folk I'm sure!
= )
August 6th, 2008 15:18
Thanks Jonathon.
It's not hard to contribute an opposing and controversial position in a civilized way.
Saying, "I disagree and here's why..."
is vastly superior to
"You're an idiot and my thinking is smarter because..."
Writing in this way helps not only to avoid the pitfalls of personal attack but also improves the quality of the comment because you are forced to think about how to best articulate your position. Maybe during the process we all might better understand the others point of view.
August 6th, 2008 15:31
Aaron (#30), did you actually mean "disemvowelling"? Because that's pretty cool.
t mns tht prsnl ttck psts bcm mstl nrdbl, lk th sntnc m wrtng hr.
I think that's kind of awesome!
August 6th, 2008 15:50
Nice post! maybe you should have named this post "comment about the comments" =D
August 6th, 2008 15:56
"That style has served me well for three years now and I hope to continue in that vain into the future."
I think you mean 'vein'. Sorry, I'm a grammar nerd.
August 6th, 2008 16:01
Nothing wrong with a little razzing, as long as its not to personal. come on guys..
August 6th, 2008 16:22
Disemvowelling - sounds violent! Not to be confused with "disavowing" of course...
I like the login idea; it improves accountability. I also like (collapsible) threaded comments. They logically organize responses to comments without requiring a reference, for example:
matt picio (#34): nc dsmvwlld sntnc y wrt, wtht gttng bld n yr hnds vn! :)
August 6th, 2008 16:33
Thanks Jonathan, right on the mark. Your level-headed style of addressing this issue serves as an excellent example on how we all should try to interact on this forum. And most of the time, I think the comments here are head-and-shoulders above what one gets to read on other popular public forums.
PS: I noticed that another reader recently posted a comment with the same handle that I normally use (Kris). All fine with me (nothing controversial about his/her comment), but maybe that would be another good reason to consider requiring a log-in for posting comments. As your community of readers grows larger, we are likely to see more and more cases of readers sharing the same handle (especially if they just use their first name), which could add confusion about the identity of a certain commenter or the opinion held by a certain person.
August 6th, 2008 16:35
It's nice that you've addressed this since I hesitate whether or not to reply since some conflicting comments aren't even constructive but rather juvenile and taunting. Yes, lately I've left your website pissed. Overall, it's not worth it. Good luck!
August 6th, 2008 16:38
Oh good Lord no disemvowelling please. It's a passive aggressive reaction and will only provoke more negativity. If you must delete, delete and be done with it.
August 6th, 2008 16:40
I posted my disappointment with the Myra/redlocks story and immediately after that the discourse improved. To some degree I wish I could take that post back.
I think much of the reason that it improved was Jonathan's response to the criticism. He stepped up and answered with his honest and heartfelt opinion.
I would like to thank you Jonathan for setting such an amazing tone on this website. I enjoy coming here to see what's happening with the bike community around me, and I appreciate the hard work that is involved and the courage to speak the truth as you know it.
August 6th, 2008 16:44
Insulting online is the new driving.
(keep up the great work neighbor.)
((I always thought .org was reserved for non-profits. I must be wrong.))
August 6th, 2008 16:52
Thanks for the post Jonathon. The comments were turning into what felt was the horror of utube comments. I hope the commentary will continue to function without rules.
August 6th, 2008 17:09
My 2 cents: As readership grows (which your excellent site deserves) it is inevitable that quality of commenting will degrade without moderating (or user rating) of some kind. This is true for every blog I can think of.
I really like what YOU are doing with the site. I suggest you do something to keep the comments up to the level of your posts. Otherwise, users like me will just stop reading the comments (but not your posts!).
August 6th, 2008 17:15
I applaud your editorial! I go to your site daily and lately have been amazed at some of the comments posted. It seems sometimes that cyclists deserve some of the ridiculous venom spewed at us. Some of the posts on this website are approaching the kind of crazy rhetoric I have listened to on talk radio. You do need to edit some of this.
August 6th, 2008 17:29
Hey, I was first with the disemvowelling idea, on the Last Thursdays post. Credit where credit is due, folks!
I like it because modifying a comment in that manner leaves it readable (sort of) for those who really care, but is a clear signal for those who don't want any nastiness to avoid. And, it prevents the troll from crying "I was censored because you don't want the truth to be known!" or some such drivel.
Another way perhaps is to change the text color on offending posts to something very similar to the background color. It accomplishes the same sort of thing.
August 6th, 2008 17:46
well said Jonathan. I firmly believe that if you wouldnt say it face to face, then dont say it in a forum or comment section. It all boils down to one word - respect.
August 6th, 2008 17:47
I think you do a great service to your readers Jonathan, and I appreciate the time you and each of the readers take to communicate bike issues to Portlanders and beyond.
I enjoy reader comments for the variety of perspectives, some completely rational, well thought out and on target, some humourous, and some not so thought out. I'm not the type to become downcast by the ideas of others and I can take a few swear words. In fact, I've had one of my comments moderated. I think I made a derogatory remark. I didn't think my comment negative at the time I wrote it and was surprised to see it had later been ** out. In any case, I wasn't upset that it had been edited because the gist of what I intended was still present.
August 6th, 2008 17:49
I also hope this site can continue to function without rules, although I do appreciate that personal insults are deleted. That's an easy one. There are threads that descend into tiresome argument that I wish didn't happen, but editing/censoring... well, it's really not possible.
I love that you post quality articles and then expect the comment section to discuss, fleshed out, chewed up and complete the POV. And unfortunately sometimes the comments derail. Some days, including yesterday, can get rough and as Metal Cowboy said, it's a downer. Some posts I avoid for a time knowing the dialog will include a lot of negativity, but my addiction draws me in anyway. And some times I get concerned, but there are nuggets of brilliance and humor mixed in and it always comes back. I am so glad you still have the passion to keep it going.
And since I missed last quarter's donation, now's as good a time as any to double it up.
August 6th, 2008 18:39
good call to draw attention to the situation Jonathan. what about a voting system so other readers vote down the bad comments and then they don't display?
though I certainly appreciate the lack of restrictions and open-nature of your site and comments
August 6th, 2008 19:27
Jonathan,
that was well said, firm and CLASSY.
I think I'll bake you a pie.
August 6th, 2008 19:38
I've enjoyed the conversation in your "living room" for 4 years now (2 years before moving to PDX) and hope to continue doing so for a long time. BikePortland and it's forums are an invaluable part of my daily routine. Thank you!
August 6th, 2008 19:49
This is a quote from an anonymous poster on a blog. (not this one) I was very taken with it & thought I'd share here.
Real wars of words are harder to win. They require thought, insight, precision, articulation, knowledge, and experience. They require the humility to admit when you are wrong. They recognize that the dialectic is not about making us look at you, but about us all looking together for the truth.
August 6th, 2008 19:51
I blame it all on the messengers
August 6th, 2008 21:08
Respectful, courteous and kind. Just as if one were sitting in your living room. I can think of no better way you could have conveyed this. Thank you. Wonderful.
August 6th, 2008 21:35
Scott, nothing wrong with a little razzing in person and among friends, but this is people you don't know and who can't hear your tone of voice.
Jonathan, thanks for the reminder. I appreciate it both as a poster and as a recipient of some not so nice comments. People's passion for the issues is a wonderful gift but easy to let it get out of hand. It is great to have such a level-headed and kindly-worded person like you at the helm keeping us in check. I still think you should run for office.=)
August 6th, 2008 21:46
Oh, one more thing. Please don't hate me for bringing this up, but does anyone see the analogy of how Jonathan handled this much more effectively and achieved better results WITHOUT having to censor or make "laws"? For all the issues that cyclists are worried about, or that the general public is worried about in regards to cyclists, discussing the issues openly as a community, and respectfully, is going to take us so much further towards creating the city we want to live in. Imagine if we had all come to the site one day and most of the comments had been deleted and you had to register or pay money to post. Everyone would have been upset and maybe little response blogs would have been created. But he came to us and said, look, we've got a problem and I need your help to fix it, so everyone said, thanks for the reminder, we'll try to do better. This is what I've been trying to say in response to all the litigation and legislation that is bandied about around here. It's not going to work, we HAVE to be building community, not walls.
August 6th, 2008 22:11
When Abraham Lincoln wrote potentially contentious letters, he held them at least overnight. Many he never sent as he had time to cool, rethink, and revise. At least according to NPR he did.
August 6th, 2008 22:15
i greatly appreciate the energy you put into running this amazing site and everyone should respect the space provided for us.
i'll be a course marshal at the Twilight Criterium this Friday and hope to see you there. we need rad photographers out there :D
August 6th, 2008 22:42
Jonathan,
I agree with your sentiment on comments.
While I myself am known to be quite outspoken,(that could also be read as passionate about what I love) I am heavily overshadowed by the negativity of many here in these comments.
I recall sending you a email a few times, asking you to remove something I have left in the comment sections. I was worried I may have crossed the line, or would offend someone with my thoughts.
I also recall you reviewing my comment, and telling me you thought it was fine, and leaving it in, even against my wishes.
That takes hutzpah, and I like it.
By the way, I agree with Beefa.
This is all the fault of the Messengers.
They should be run out of town on a rail!
August 6th, 2008 22:57
I'm most deterred by the repetition. There has been a high percentage of posts that are either:
- people repeating the same sentiment, pretty much verbatim rather than briefly with "I agree"
- the usual suspects hammering on their pet topics, posting the same thing (about helmets, about lawfulness, about fixies...) TEDIOUSLY every chance they get
- posters who obviously haven't read the previous comments and are duplicating unnecessarily
I'd like to read the discussions, but where am I going to find time to read 300 comments per day?
Sometimes I have a contribution to make to a discussion I think might be valuable, but who is going to be still reading 100 comments down the page?
August 6th, 2008 23:18
I think I am going to use the time I spend here for riding the legal singletrack in Jenkins Estate, from now on.
August 6th, 2008 23:56
Jonathan, watching you watch the tightrope between inclusion and tone-setting can be breathtaking. I find that you often land on the side of leaving difficult comments because you have great empathy and tolerance. I respect that tremendously, and sometimes it humbles me to watch your attempts to reach out to abrasive or aggressive posters.
That said, I also feel that there has been something of a sea change in comments lately, with too many personal or attacking posts. I sometimes can't bring myself to read comments, and I know numerous people who won't comment on the site for fear of what the response will be. For that reason, I appreciate your thoughts here and the sentiment behind it, and your quick removal of some of the more incendiary and violent recent comments.
Thank you for all the work you do, including bearing the primary burden for setting a respectful discourse. Hopefully many of us can assist you through our own comments and reactions.
August 7th, 2008 00:28
Jonathan,
Your site is really a generous gift to the community.
People who disrespect that discredit themselves.
Thanks for your enormous contribution to the quality of dialogue and cycling here in Portland.
August 7th, 2008 00:54
Kudos to Jonathon
Thanks for letting us vent. I think that this is a very Constructive site. I enjoy seeing all the different views and sometimes I will change my view after some one makes light of an issue and I see my own follie.
August 7th, 2008 07:29
I certainly wouldn't blame Mr. Maus if he decided to go back to just riding, but until then, I hope folks can find the polite button, regardless of the strength of their opinions.
Ride, smile, enjoy this short life.
August 7th, 2008 08:39
I agree with Jonathan. I noted a month ago a great wizzing contest with harsh comments about fixies. I do not ride one but have great respect for those who can. I was amazed by this hatred between fellow cyclists. If a group who all rode two wheeled human powered vehicles could show this much hate between themselves, no wonder we as a world have wars etc. Arguing and name calling, way beyond a "discussion", about how many gears a bike has or how it stops is hardly a thing to get really angry about !!! Thanks Jonathan.
August 7th, 2008 09:22
I have more respect for you building your own mountain bike before there were mountain bikes, and continuing to ride it to this day, Tankagnolo Bob.
August 7th, 2008 09:37
It's definitely true that that the personal attacks detract from the value of bikeportland for everyone. I try to be conscious of that and I think it's good for everyone to have a reminder.
It's also true that you catch more flies with honey (as they say), and that these things would rarely, if ever, happen in a face-to-face conversation. That's why, when the guy who repeatedly personally insults me does his thing, I have offered to buy him a beer at the next bikeportland social. Because much of the snarkiness comes between repeat commenters, I think getting to know others in the real world is a particularly good way of combating this problem. And anyway, that's the spirit with which one should approach such posts.
I would offer to buy a beer for anyone who's ever been offended by one of my comments, but I don't have that much money! But I will sit down and have a beer with you. I've met some great folks at the socials and it would be fun to do again.
And FWIW, I find the discourse on the forums to be much more civil than that in the comments. And I attribute that to the fact that you have to get an account and log in, you have an avatar, and you can edit your comments when you re-read them and they are unclear or otherwise do not convey your meaning well. That said, I understand the value of the more open format of the comments and I think this reminder will be helpful.
August 7th, 2008 09:40
A lot of the personal diatribes in the comments sections have been driving a lot of folks away.
It's hard to post a well-thought out response, only to know it's going to get ripped to shreds repeatedly by vitriolic folks with nothing better to do with their afternoon.
I think that might be why a lot of reputable groups, with a lot of good things to say don't post on here, even although it would be in their interests to do so.
August 7th, 2008 09:48
Excellent points. Keep up the great work!
August 7th, 2008 10:01
That's a good reminder to all of us to keep things real. Cycling needs to be promoted in a positive manner. Our goal should be to get as many car drivers as possible to start biking so they can can be more aware of us on the road. Getting to that point is difficult and the constant negativity towards car drivers does not help. It just makes them hate us more. I certainly understand the need to vent when close calls or accidents occur, but this forum should be about promoting safety, education, and learning how to share the road. As cyclists, we should be the ones who are happy and positive and we need to let the car drivers see that. Let's play nice again.
August 7th, 2008 10:35
I %100 agree. We live in what I would consider to be a "utiopian city" for us cyclists. There is no need to resort to name-calling and other nonsense over something as simple and fun as riding a bike!
August 7th, 2008 11:31
I'm not good at hugging.
I fear I may keep pushing the envelope.
August 7th, 2008 11:34
"I'm not good at hugging."
That's great Myra! I certainly don't want the comments to be all hugs... that would be boring...
"I fear I may keep pushing the envelope."
pushing the envelope is fine, but it's all about finding the right balance.
August 7th, 2008 11:40
Thanks Jonathan - I agree with most of the posts here. I would add that I am seeing more organized comment "attacks" here and at other places, particularly the Tribune comments section, where folks with a particular point of view (typically anti-bike, anti-transit, anti-government) constantly repeat the same messages - a very sophisticated propaganda approach I suppose. These seem to be from the same small cast of characters, they use very angry language, call people names, etc. I am hoping your plea for more civility will help people identify these comment "attacks" so they can be seen for what they are and more easily dealt with. Keep up all the good work!
August 7th, 2008 11:44
Of course I read this after I make a "lazy and weak" comment on another thread. I'll be a little more civil; hopefully that's as bad as I've gotten over the years.
Thanks for the post. I stopped reading the comments for over a year the last time I felt it was getting too personal and mean spirited (and in that time, some jerk stole my full name *shakes fist*). I don't think it's gotten anywhere near as bad as it was, but it's having it's moments.
Have you reconsidered trying again to funnel the comments to the forums Johnathan? I know you've had problems, but maybe if people had to click a link (talk about this story on the forums) it would seem less connected to the site or the story itself. It'd be a way to keep the discussion going but put a bit of a firewall between your story and the comments.
I don't mind the never ending "wear a helmet", "it's my head", "wear a helmet", "it's my head" debate or any of the many others that may never change a mind though. While droll and repetitive at times, it's something I haven't seen anywhere else: a huge number of people from all kinds of different backgrounds and styles talking about bikes.
We have roadies, racers, commuters, hipsters, messengers, mountain bikers, tour types, young, old, blah, blah, etc, etc here and I think it's great. What makes it great is that while we're all into bikes, there is less "preaching to the choir" or group think than you'd get on a message board or site that focused on one type of bicyclist.
I guess the golden rule is just to remember that just because someone can't agree with your logic, they are not an idiot, nor is anyone entitled to treat someone who disagrees like crap, even though it's the internets, and bile seems par for the course sometimes.
Keep up the disagreeing though - it's valuable communication, even if we can't see eye to eye (ha!) on a given issue.
August 7th, 2008 11:47
if you think bikeportland has bad comments just read the comments left on oregonlive about a bike crash they are NASTY:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/08/bicyclist_injured_in_collision.html
August 7th, 2008 12:01
Speaking of "nice social get togethers" and the golden rule, I think you should have more Bike Portland Social Hours. I think when people have a face with a name, they tend to tone it down a bit.
August 7th, 2008 12:05
"think you should have more Bike Portland Social Hours."
I agree with you 100%!
How about August 19th (a Tuesday)? any ideas on locations?
August 7th, 2008 12:55
At 81 posts, the traffic on this one is probably almost dead. You could make a forum post or a new story though asking for time and place ideas.
As for me, it'll have to be in Corvallis since I'm living here for one more year while the SO finishes her Masters. I'd love any excuse to get to spend a couple days in Portland though. As near as we are, we're still horribly homesick.
August 7th, 2008 13:34
Well stated. I was noticing the same thing and being a new viewer to the blog, I did not know if this was the way it always was or recent. I thank you for making a statement on the issue.
August 7th, 2008 13:47
in re social hours, I'm so jazzed to make one. Mons and Weds work better, but maybe this isn't the best 'forum' for planning such an event.
August 7th, 2008 15:19
@Donna for president! And Jonathan thank you for the transparency and thoughtfulness with which you've addressed this. It was getting to be a slippery slope. Your attention to this undercurrent of attacks/negativity (not that everything needs to be kitties and butterflies) was getting to be less of something I wanted to put up with, much less read or associate with.
August 7th, 2008 15:39
Big group hug with all the opposing parties of certain recent threads? Followed by pillow fight? (Or vice versa)
August 7th, 2008 15:43
As a sometimes visitor to Portland, I am very impressed and inspired by the cycling community I find there. It is truely a wonderful thing that is happening in your community. Be proud.
Bikeportland is the "frosting on the cake" of your community.
I agree a few commenters fail to be up to the challenge, that being first in the Nation brings.
Jonathan keep up your fine efforts, Thanks!!!
August 7th, 2008 21:05
Thanks Jonathan. I appreciate your support and believe that we do best when we stay on track and avoid name calling.
To Adam C's comment ... I cannot understand why OregonLive, which *should* reflect high journalistic standards, tolerate some of the rants that they allow to be posted in their forums. With the leading (negative) headlines on the web site, there even seems to be an editorial position supporting this awful behavior. I am a 25+ year customer, but I am very close to canceling my subscription.
As it stands, for quality biking news, I will continue to visit BikePortland, not OregonLive.
August 7th, 2008 21:50
My 2 cents on negativity. I have been guilty of this as much, or perhaps more than most, but I do not feel particularly bad about it. I have never backed down from pointing out jerky behavior. It is just my nature.
Jonathon is creating something here, and I am glad to be able to elubricate here. So I will do my best to keep a civil and constructive tongue.
However, perhaps the trend we are seeing is not about the evolution of Jonathon's business, but an evolution of our frustrations. Are we getting where we want to be as fast as we want? Did Amsterdam, Copenhagen, or Berlin encounter a wall at 5-10% mode share?
August 8th, 2008 00:00
I think it's fantastic that you actively moderate and edit comments. The Internet is full of blogs that would otherwise be amazing communities except for the lack of any editorial oversight.
For sure, this is a great value that you add. I wish that more blogs, like Portland Transport or Volokh Conspiracy would do the same.
August 8th, 2008 13:41
We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men — not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular.
- Edward R. Murrow.
August 8th, 2008 18:50
I wonder if you could utilize the forums better, to move conversations there that seem to recur on comment threads? There are a lot of issues that tend to come up over and over, and have little to do with the original post. Maybe having forums with titles that address those issues, and nudging commenters in that direction when they get off-topic, would help.
August 9th, 2008 14:59
Less snarky blogging = more time in the saddle
August 9th, 2008 20:45
Jonathan,
BikePortland.org went from a site I checked several times a day to about once a week (if that), due mostly to the poor manners displayed on the comments.
I suspect that its due to the anonymity of the comments. When you don't know them, it's always easier to yell at some "stupid idiot" on the road or call for someone's head anonymously on a website.
If the vitriol and personal animosity expressed in your comments is any indication of the future direction of Portland — a place I brag about to all my far-away friends as a model city due to its cheerful, welcoming people — then I fear our fair city is quickly retreating to the ugliness of other American cities.
Best of luck to us all.
Thom Schoenborn