The Monday Roundup: The gravel boom, biking while high and more

Mandatory flags for cars 1896; for bikes 2016 – how quickly a century goes by.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag_traffic_laws

Noteworthy, though, that for cars the flag was to precede the vehicle, while for bikes it trails. That difference is quite revealing.

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Robert Burchett

The two greatest hazards for mv operators on rural roads in Missouri, in no particular order: deer and stray cattle. No doubt those critters will also be flagged!

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B. Carfree

I would think that the biggest hazards to mv operators in Misery are the drivers themselves. It’s pretty easy to avoid hitting cattle of one is driving according to the law, and it’s a rare deer that isn’t visible long before it comes onto the road if one pays just a bit of attention to what one is doing.

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Alan 1.0

rare but it happens: youtube Sausalito Crash 12:14:14

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http://www.citymuseum.org/

looks like California more than Missouri…

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Eric Leifsdad

That’s why you don’t ride in the gutter.

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Pete

Did you read the comment thread on that video, about the “dog” and pepperoni not being meat? LMFAO!!

I’ve had this happen to me in the bay area, Oregon coast, and the gorge; managed to avoid all as near-misses (except once with my van). Deer need to wear hi-viz clothing. Rep. Davis needs to get right on that….

Maybe they should have 15′ flags too! More than twice as high as my cargo van, and a foot taller than most standard bridges… and these are our elected leaders…

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longgone

Easy low hanging jab at other states. Typical. Stupid bills are attempted daily, even in this state. Missouri is a beautiful place. That bill will get no traction, I assure you.

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Huey Lewis

Missouri is lovely and I’d encourage many of you that aren’t from here to perhaps think of moving there. I hear St. Louis is very cheap.

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Hello, Kitty

St. Louis has one of the awesomest museums ever.

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longgone

Without Missouri, and the cultural history that is its great history, there would be a much different Portland Oregon. You sir as we say in the Show Me State, are an “unthinking buffoon”.

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longgone

‘Cmon Huey.. .. I challenge you to a Missouri/Oregon standoff! A cultural arts based war! Do it now. History is truly on the side of Missouri. Are you afraid ?

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Hello, Kitty

Mark Twain vs. Tonya Harding?

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Pete

“Stupid bills are attempted daily”; to your point:
http://www.cyclelicio.us/2016/missouri-bill-no-stop-for-right-on-red

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longgone

Sorry Robert, the first major threat….. dogs. Trust me. Farm dogs are abundant, and provide lots of interval training.

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Robert Burchett

Do cars benefit from interval training? 😉 Dogs certainly bark at motor vehicles but aren’t much of a threat. Guess I should have said “besides other cars”. I’m from Missouri, and if you’re driving on a blacktop and see a bunch of eyes and teeth ahead, those are black Angus!

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B. Carfree

I couldn’t help myself. My many friends from Kansas taught me how to pronounce Missouri.

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Randy O’Toole – what he writes is such patent nonsense: a mishmash of his familiar anti-government ranting, cherry picked statistics, and a hefty dose of confusion about what it is he’s actually arguing for or against: make-streets-safer-by-slowing-traffic-down-to-a-crawl, or the-most-dangerous-are-local-streets-where-traffic-is-slowest. He has no theory, just a hunch which then quickly goes off the rails as he tries to make sense of it all with his grab bag of impressions.

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Dave

Every political group has their own fetish–scratch a train lover and you’ll find a lefty (me guilty!) and Libertarians are more emotionally hung up on private cars than the average automotive engineer or race driver probably is.

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I’m fine with an affinity group defending their private passion. But I do think we can and should expect them to make sense when they do, hold them to a higher standard if they don’t.

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Chris I

Tool is an appropriate description for that guy. Oh, and he loves government. He loves parking minimums and subsidies for sprawl. He just doesn’t like subsidies for biking, walking, or transit.

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Granpa

Biking while high – more research is needed

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mran1984

Comment of the week!!!

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ethan

I volunteer.

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wsbob

Riding your bike, high on pot, do as much “…research…”, as you want…please just consider conducting it where there are no other road users around, whether they’re traveling by bike or by motor vehicle.

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mran1984

I would rather be hit by someone under the influence than someone on their phone. Plus, it is perfectly legal to ride, or drive, while being oblivious to everything around you anyway. Not to mention the lack of skill displayed by riders and drivers that is abundant on both sides of the river.

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wsbob

“I would rather be hit by someone under the influence than someone on their phone. …” mran1984

Oh…that’s really funny, like something somebody high would think was ‘philosophical’. For some people, it seems anything with a pot reference is like a politically correct opportunity to make a dumb joke. I don’t mean to spoil the fun by being overly serious…but wasn’t there just recently, on Lombard St, a collision resulting in the fatality of someone biking, because in part, the person driving was reportedly very high on pot?

Of course, no report that the person biking was high on pot, so I suppose there are some people reading here that will draw from this, that biking sober, can do nothing to help people avoid collisions with people driving badly.

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q`Tzal

I still categorize this as a “self-solving problem” in that any vehicle that requires fine motor skills to even stay upright is a vehicle that will fall over/crash very close to its point of origin with minimal injuries.

The worst negative effect I see from intoxicated people riding bicycles is a group of similarly stoned/drunk “friends” coming out to watch their buddy fall over off his bike in the parking lot…. and then the “victim” being so stoned/drunk that they don’t feel the pain of the skull fracture that they proceed to do it again and again.

Sure, they’ll count as crashes/collisions/accidents but by their nature they will be very slow speed and only involve the intoxicated person themselves.

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shirtsoff

Do you have any hot spots and time of the week where this behavior can be easily observed? I’m skeptical but equally fascinated by the idea that this is common behavior, q’Tzal..

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q`Tzal

I haven’t observed this in decades but in my youth both some illustrious members of my extended redneck family and their friends lost their driver’s licenses due to repeated DUIs.
Because there was no public transportation to speak of the only options are walking and bicycling.
Of course these booze hounds didn’t stop boozing; often they’d drink even more.
Watching them try to ride a bicycle when they could barely walk in a straight line was always a hoot.

Subscriber

it’s common… just look at all the bikes locked up near bars at 1:30am…

often people will walk until they sober up enough to ride…

Guest

Until they THINK they’re sober enough to ride…

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wsbob

I think many people probably can ride a bike under the influence of alcohol or pot, and stay upright on the bike. Slower reaction time is one of the things I understand that pot can produce. In straight terms, collision avoidance ability of people BUI, may be impaired.

What I was thinking of in posting my initial comment, is that for example, if someone else using the road with a motor vehicle, makes a mistake requiring a person riding a bike and on a collision path with them, to take evasive action, impaired reaction ability of the person riding, could have critical consequences for the person riding.

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Hello, Kitty

I’m not sure “evasive action” is a practical solution to avoiding crashes in most real-life situations, but riders who are “influenced” might make different choices when making judgments (“Should I blow this sign?” “Can I make it?”), or, depending on the level of impairment, perhaps even noticing the sign in the first place. That’s where I see the greatest danger.

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wsbob

Being prepared to take evasive action to avoid collisions is simply a reality of road use. I’m thinking the chances of successfully avoiding a collision through evasive action, is likely to be better, if the road user’s reflexes aren’t slowed by some intoxicant.

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q`Tzal

I’m willing to bet there are higher health risks from cardiovascular exercise (riding a bicycle) in urban traffic exhaust than smoking even the nastiest ditch weed.

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davemess

I actually looked into that last year. I found some studies that concluded that cycling next to traffic was not any worse than what the people in cars were experiencing for most of the chemicals they looked at.
I don’t have time to dig it up now, but you can probably find it.

I think they summarized that the exercise was a net positive over any negatives from the air.

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q`Tzal

Did you include the one that showed traffic police officers who spent over X-hours in a vehicle in traffic, inhaling combustion exhaust through their vehicle air vents, had the same lung cancer risk as a 2 or 3 pack a day smoker?

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davemess

No, I was looking at it from a standpoint of “What is more dangerous for breathing while cycling: Taking main streets or backroads?”

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I strongly resent the unnecessary damage vehicle pollution does to my health when I ride my bike in traffic. Suggesting that part of the fault lies in where I choose to ride is victim blaming.

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Same. I haven’t smoked in twenty years but I still cough up black stuff from 200 urban miles a week on my bike.

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Hello, Kitty

I too am unhappy about urban air quality, as we all should be. Cars are a part of that problem, but there are plenty of other contributors: diesel engines (trucks, trains, ships, machinery), industrial emissions (there are some plating companies on the east side that emit some very nasty stuff), aviation emissions, people using fireplaces, the list goes on.

I read nothing that could remotely be construed as victim blaming.

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“What is more dangerous for breathing while cycling: Taking main streets or backroads?”

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davemess

Soren, come on. That’s a simple question. It places no blame or judgement on where one chooses to ride (for the record I am very in support of biking on main streets).

The point of the studies was that the cyclists had pretty much the same air quality on those main roads as the people in cars on those main roads.

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Hello, Kitty

It’s not just cyclists who suffer from dirty air — everyone does. And it is unquestionable that geography plays a role.

Cleveland students are closer to sources of pollution (Powell, UPRR, etc.) than Wilson students are, and so probably suffer from higher exposure to pollutants. Pointing that out that does not cast blame on those students.

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davemess, then i apologise. i often have trouble with context online.

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B. Carfree

That’s not a surprise. I remember reading in the UC Berkeley Wellness Letter (School of Public Health subscription rag for laymen) in the early ’90s that the carcinogen load inside a car is 4-8 times as high as at the roadside.

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Buzz

It’s well documented that toll booth workers have higher cancer rates than the general public.

I attribute my adult-onset asthma at least in part to a long history of cycling in traffic.

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was carless

I’ve biked while high before; I did not experience anything but some fatigue from the effects. However, while my reaction time was a bit impaired, my sense of balance was surprisingly unaffected.

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ethan

I bike high all the time. I generally feel like I’m riding slower when I’m baked, but I ride pretty much the same as if I were not high at all.

I might take more back roads and stop to look at the scenery more often, but I’ve never had any collisions / issues / anything else while biking under that particular influence.

Drunk biking is considerably different and, in my experiences, much more harmful to the rider.

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Hello, Kitty

What would you say to someone who made the same claims about driving high?

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That there is a huge difference between operating 2 ton power tools powered by explosions, designed to separate the user from the outside environment, and being on top of a thirty pound bike powered by its operator.

Subscriber

depends on which study you want to believe… some studies show you’re safer driving while stoned… others show you’re about the same as being on any other publicly available medications…

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middle of the road guy

It all depends which study we want to believe to support our current view.

If it is contrary to what I believe now, well it must be wrong!

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resopmok

In my research studies, I’ve found that I’m likely to be more cautious while riding high and more likely to get lost or miss my turn. Overall safer, slower, and more confused about how to get where I’m going. Your results may vary.

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rick

The link to the Portland parking permit news site doesn’t work.

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wsbob

There’s a risk in dubiously using some study’s conclusion to make the kind of declarative sentence such as the following used in today’s bikeportland Monday Roundup:

“Helmet psychology: People tend to take more risks while wearing them.”

Jump to the chase: did the study’s facilitators find that ‘all people’ that wear bike helmets, tend to take more risks while wearing them?

Or, did they find that people that do relatively higher risk types of biking, such as bike racing or maybe intermediate and advanced recreational mountain biking…that tend to succumb to the psychological bearing use of bike helmets may have on their concluding that because they’re wearing a bike helmet, they can ride in a riskier manner?

It’s a human failing, I suppose, that many people often will not read beyond declarative statements, to find out what more to the story there may be. Sometimes, it seems that people that either generally don’t like bike helmets, or laws obliging some people to use them, will use declarative statements like the one in today’s roundup, to discourage people from wearing bike helmets when riding.

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daisy

Similar research has been happening in football. A new study found that players without helmets and shoulder pads played more safely and took fewer risks. Some folks are suggesting that players practice without helmets so they don’t get used to a false sense of protection. http://usatodayhss.com/2016/study-practicing-without-helmets-could-help-improve-safety-in-football

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daisy

This study was done in a lab. It wasn’t a survey. It was much more controlled than your questions suggest.

Best part: you can read it here! http://opus.bath.ac.uk/48015/

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Pete

I tend to discount these “behavioral impact” types of studies (and their declarative conclusions – or anything along the lines of “this leads to that”… and therefore what??). A helmet is used for one purpose: to help mitigate the impact of blunt trauma to the skull. I doubt highly that I (either subconsciously or consciously) engage in riskier behavior when I place one on my head.

I do know that I engaged in much riskier behavior before I started crashing and learning the results (cause and effect) of those calculated risks, that I subsequently learned to better calculate (i.e. not take)… kinda like when Mom told me not to touch the stove.

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daisy

We don’t always know why we make certain decisions, take certain risks, etc. Constant self-awareness would be exhausting! The folks in these studies were wearing helmets that had absolutely no safety function, yet still reacted differently than the control group without helmets.

I’m not saying don’t wear your helmet. But let’s not dismiss developing research, either.

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Pete

The study did not compare how the same people behaved with and without helmets, it compared 40 people with helmets to 40 people with baseball caps. I don’t see what that proves.

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wsbob

Completely unrelated to the roundup, but thinking I should have mentioned it in past: that’s a rockin’ solar panel ad bikeportland’s been using lately. Definitely the kind of ad that’s likely to get people interested in buying themselves some solar panels.

Subscriber

what solar panel ad? I see no such ads on the page…

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Racer X

I get ads for big SUVs and guns and pugs in pink tutus…I think Jonathan has no control any more over ads…Google bots do.

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I used to have AdBlock disabled on here but those unrelated ads got to be too much so I had to turn it back on…

it’d be nice if subscribers didn’t have to see the google ads…

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wsbob

The ads seems to change. I don’t see it now, but I’ve seen it on bikeportland before, I believe. Nothing outwardly objectionable about it. It’s just a woman standing amid a bunch of solar panels. Nicely dressed, but photographed to enhance her figure a little more conspicuously than I thought some of bikeportlands’ more outspoken people reading here would appreciate.

In terms of quality and artistry, covers of car magazines and motorcycle magazines have this ad beat, hands down, but it’s always interesting to see how manufacturers of other products use the same general technique to pitch their products.

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Anne Hawley

I read the story about the man who cycled from India to Austria. Hang on a sec. I seem to have something in my eye…

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Tacoma

Me too. (Sniff.)

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B. Carfree

My eyes cleared up when he said he didn’t love bikes. It was a compelling love story, nonetheless.

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wsbob

Citylab’s story: http://www.citylab.com/commute/2016/01/drivers-negative-attitude-cyclists-bike-riders/423921/#disqus_thread

…on finding of the study conducted by “…researcher Tara Goddard and colleagues at Portland State University…”, is worth reading. There’s considerably more information in that story, about the study’s findings than to what extent people that drive but never bike, feel that people that bike “are able to follow the rules of the road”.

A two sentence paragraph made about midway in the story:

“…But when it came to cyclists, neither drivers nor non-drivers thought people on bikes followed the rules or rode predictably, with only about a third agreeing that was the case. So in these five cities—among those generally considered progressive when it comes to street life—bicyclists have a universal perception problem. It’s not just that drivers don’t think much of how people ride bikes; no one really does. …” citylab

The writer closes his story with a conclusion that the study has found that people that drive but never bike, do not support building more protected bike lanes. I think I’d need to read the study myself, maybe closely, rather than take the writer’s conclusion at face value.

Generally a decently written story, though it seems that citylab tends to like using certain names of an antagonistic nature to refer to people that drive, and people that bike. I personally think resorting to that kind of name calling, works against better conditions for biking.

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B. Carfree

“The writer closes his story with a conclusion that the study has found that people that drive but never bike, do not support building more protected bike lanes.”

That’s okay. Many of us who ride but don’t drive also don’t support building more protected bike lanes, at least not the way they are currently being built.

Isn’t it nice to see common ground?

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wsbob

Questioning what’s meant by ‘protected bike lanes’, and how they’re currently built, is good to do. I’ve not looked the study myself, so I don’t know what examples of protected bike lanes may have been shown to study participants as part of questioning whether they would support their construction.

To my mind, a protected bike lane in a true sense of those words, would be one that’s distanced from the main lanes of traffic by maybe 10′ with some sort of barrier in between that motor vehicles couldn’t easily stray through. If such lanes existed in our area, not everyone should have to ride them…but for those that desire that kind of infrastructure in order for riding to be a viable form of transportation for themselves, support for its creation is very important,

I’m somewhat aware from first hand conversations, and believe reports I read, that there are many people for whom unavailability of a lane to ride, that’s some distance away from motor vehicle traffic, is a ‘no-go’, as to whether they’re prepared to ride rather than drive. If it’s a big percent of the public that’s not supportive of building protected bike lanes, that may help to explain why progress towards at least a basic network of protected bike lanes is being so slow to happen.

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Mao

I need to agree with the idea of the unpredictable bicyclist. Riding around, about 1 in 10 blow stop signs, while the other 9 typically slow to a near stop to look before going. I’ve nearly hit others because they didn’t look around when I had the right of way (On my bike of course).

Once in a while, I’ll even confuse driver’s a four way stops when I put my foot down to make it as clear a possible that since they arrived before me, they get to go first. Which I’m doing because of those rare unpredictable drivers who come to a stop half way in an intersection.

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Middle of the Road guy

Perhaps people who never drive are less likely to understand how many cyclists behave erratically?

Subscriber

Got any demographic in mind? I’m not sure I’m following you.

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are

i rarely or effectively never drive, and my perception is there are motorists and cyclists and pedestrians and skateboarders out there who are alert and engaged in what is going on around them and others who are not.

also with carts in the grocery aisles. and near any elevator or hallway door or stairs landing.

having been around sixty-odd years i would say anecdotally this has gotten worse over time, but it could simply be the much larger density of people everywhere. but it is certainly the case we have no effective mechanisms in place to train people from an early age to pay attention to where they are in relation to other people.

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B. Carfree

I agree with you and we are of an age. I think it’s not so much that things have changed dramatically as that people simply refuse to get off my lawn.

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Buzz

Not how, why.

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shirtsoff

Middle of the Road guy, I haven’t seen any data to back up that claim (or hypothesis?), but if you’re aware of a particular piece of scholarly research, please point the way to it!

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Dave

Or their perception of cyclist behavior is derived from a knowledge based of zero.,

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Jay T.

There’s a book bike here in Oregon, too! Corvallis-Benton County Public Library got one last fall. http://cbcpubliclibrary.net/bookbike/

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B. Carfree

Rochester, NY put theirs into service last Spring. http://www3.libraryweb.org/subpage.aspx?id=498655

That guy in the red jersey with the “50” on it is an interesting character. He gave up smoking and got fully immersed in bicycling, so of course he’s the one who drags the bike library around.

Guest

For the first time, the famous phrase coined to describe would-be bikers in Portland has been shown to apply nationwide.

I have no problem with the label “interested but concerned” or even “enthused and confident” but “strong and fearless” is demeaning and inaccurate. I am, in general, somewhat comfortable riding on every arterial road in inner Portland but I am not fearless. A close pass frightens me. Aggressive behavior scares me.

I also object to the label “strong”. Someone who is “interested but concerned” can be strong. I have known people who compete at high levels who are not comfortable riding where I ride. And people who are somewhat comfortable riding in urban traffic are, by no means, necessarily “strong”.

Subscriber

exactly… I’ll take the lane on Powell, but still be afraid that somebody will run me over, especially since I’m going 10 mph… I just don’t let that fear control me… I’m neither strong nor fearless but I will ride wherever it’s convenient and legal…

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Hello, Kitty

Maybe instead of “strong and fearless” we should use “convenient and legal”?

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Hello, Kitty

Actually, given the discussion elsewhere on this story, I’m changing my vote to “high and mighty”.

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Granpa

On this we agree

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shirtsoff

soren, these pedantic phrasings of demographics and the gut reaction you feel for them are very important in developing neutral categories. I’d give the issue more thought and propose names for categories and forward them to authors of these studies. A critical eye with constructive suggestions is always welcome in this field. 🙂

Guest

“will ride anywhere” is neutral and captures both “in the lane types” and the “invisible cyclist”.

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Adam

I believe in this case, “strong” refers to level of ability rather than physical strength. At any rate, these terms are just shortcuts to help people better understand people who ride bikes. They necessarily have to be simplified.

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resopmok

I take issue that “interested but concerned” and “no way no how” are labelled as two of “The 4 Types of Cyclists..” Aren’t they, by definition, not riding bicycles, and therefore not cyclists?

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9watts

I have long wondered about that.

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in the TREC portland study many people who ride/commute frequently were included n the “interested but concerned” category. moreover, in the “strong and fearless” category there were some that ride infrequently.

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are

we are all bicyclists, just not very evenly distributed.

Subscriber

Would you suggest that we are we all smokers too? Some of just don’t realize it yet?

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Nick Falbo

If my job was to get as many people smoking as possible, that is exactly how I’d think about it.

Subscriber

Except that the phrasing in the original taxonomy includes ‘no way no how’ which would be the equivalent of a teetotaler, or am I missing something?

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Nick Falbo

From the Geller’s original paper:

“The separation between these four broad groups is not generally as clear-cut as described here. There is likely quite a bit of blurring between the “enthused,” the “interested,” and those not at all interested, but this has proven to be a reasonable way to understand the city’s existing and potential cyclists.”

It’s also worth noting that this is specifically focused on bicycling for transportation. Even the No Way, No How group might go out on a path for a recreational ride.

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Adam

Everyone is a potential cyclist, though.

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B. Carfree

I much prefer Jan Heine’s term for it: competent and confident. We know what we’re doing and how to do it, but we do experience our share of fear and other emotions.

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Hello, Kitty

How about “Knows How but Sometimes Scared”?

Hmmmm…. that would describe me in other activities as well.

Guest

many in the EandC and IbutC categories are competent cyclists.

i think the essence of this category is the cyclist who “will ride anywhere”. this neutral language encompasses ideologues, “i learned how to ride before bike lanes” types, and invisible cyclists.

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Pete

…and “I learned how to ride in spite of bike lanes” types. 😉

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Dave Thomson

Agreed. And generally we know how to differentiate between actual risk versus perceived risk. That is why we ride where we need to go while still experiencing occasional fear.

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Nick Falbo

The framework also faces criticism for not being inclusive of the idea of the “invisible bicyclist.” This would be the person who bicycles because the have no other choice. They haven’t necessarily been trained it urban bicycling, and you may see them on the sidewalk, or riding on the gutter edge, going the wrong way. Because they will bicycle anywhere, they a lumped into the ‘strong and fearless’ category, but it is certainly not a good fit.

While the framework isn’t perfect, it has been an incredible tool for advocates and planners to talk about bicycling in our cities.

In a world where DOTs consider sharrows an equivalent “bicycle facility” to a protected bike lane, this framworks helps everyone talk about the distinctions and understand the implications on who is served by the streets we create.

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Hello, Kitty

Any categorization system that attempts to fit the span of humanity into four neat boxes will necessarily fail to capture some of the nuance of each individual. Focus less on the names of the categories, and more on how this model can help improve policy/infrastructure to meet the needs of various types of cyclists, with the goal of enticing more people to ride (and making things better for those already riding).

Now, since I am nothing if not inconsistent, I would propose using naval terminology to describe riders:

Garage Class
Springwater Class
Clinton Class
Hawthorne Class
Powell Class

These contain no adjectives that someone might object to, and are a more objective “measurement” of what sorts of roads a particular cyclist is willing to ride on.

Guest

nick, i absolutely agree that it has been useful and think it can be improved to be more inclusive.

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daisy

I am neither strong nor fearless in most areas of life, but I do fit pretty well in that category of cyclist based on the description. I don’t find it demeaning at all. I like it — I am hardcore! Rawr! Etc. The best part: you can be strong and fearless … and kinda slow on a bike, like me!

(Note: all bets are off if we are talking about mountain biking. There are I am weak and freaked out.)

What these categories do is help me understand why some folks might feel differently about cycling than I do — and I think that’s the point. These categories are intended to help city and regional planners and engineers decide on appropriate infrastructure. If only strong and fearless types are present, that’s a strong indication you’ve got work to do — the problem isn’t that other cyclists and potential cyclists need to learn better skills, but rather that infrastructure needs to accommodate people’s skills and comfort levels.

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Hello, Kitty

“Weak and Freaked”. That’s awesome!

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longgone

Dirty Kanza!! Forever will I miss my ol’ bud Joel Dyke.

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Pete S.

Correction: The Gifford Gravel 50 is firmly in the state of Warshington, not Oregon.

Subscriber

Huh. From the picture it looks like asphalt too.

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Pete S.

The route does start and end on pavement.

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Dave

q`Tzal
I’m willing to bet there are higher health risks from cardiovascular exercise (riding a bicycle) in urban traffic exhaust than smoking even the nastiest ditch weed.Recommended 6

Ha! Haven’t heard the phrase “ditch weed” in a couple of decades!

Subscriber

same here… and it’s a good thing…

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q`Tzal

If Showtime’s series Weeds was any indication the marijuana economy went boutique over dollar store drek.

Little good it does me: I get migraines from smoke in all its incarnations.

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q`Tzal

Someone forgot to tell my mom that Cheech and Chong is not appropriate listening fare for the 8-14 year old demographic.

Then again they had me reading at a 3rd or 4th grade level when I got to kindergarten. Thanks mom for the years of boredom in public school.

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K'Tesh

Robert Burchett
The two greatest hazards for mv operators on rural roads in Missouri, in no particular order: deer and stray cattle. No doubt those critters will also be flagged!Recommended 5

And the deer should be arrested if they don’t use deer crossings. 😉

Subscriber