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Your daily dose of awesome (in e-assist cargo bike form)

Posted by Jonathan Maus (Publisher/Editor) on March 7th, 2011 at 4:50 pm

Check out the image below from local business owner Joel Grover. Joel is the man behind Splendid Cycles, a cargo bike specialty shop on SE Belmont. His work vehicle is a Bullitt cargo bike powered by an electric-assist unit made in Portland by Ecospeed. Joel also uses a custom-made trailer by yet another Portland bike company, Black Oak Fabrications.

Grover's trailer is loaded with a few Bullitts that have just arrived via air freight from Copenhagen. He posted the photo to his shop's Facebook page with the following:

"One Bullitt pulling four Bullitt's! The Ecospeed electric assist system makes this possible. I can cover more ground on the back streets of Portland with a little help. And at 6-7 cents to re-charge the battery, the MPG equivalent is in the hundreds!"

Local business flourishing with an assist (literally) from another local business — and all on two wheels.

Our friend Tad from EcoSpeed also sent along this great video with more action shots of the Ecospeed Bullitt:

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Comments
  • Jim March 7, 2011 at 5:04 pm

    I'm extremely car light and ride an Xtra; by the time I factor in the purchase price of a Bullit along with Ecospeed assist I would have been able to purchase enough gas to get me to the year 2123.

    Just sayin'.

    Jim

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    • Jason Skelton March 7, 2011 at 5:19 pm

      However, the rest of us would have subsidized your purchase of gasoline with our lungs.

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      • Sigma March 8, 2011 at 6:53 am

        Because electricity, as everyone knows, is 100% pollution-free.

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    • Jack March 8, 2011 at 7:54 am

      Jim: You had to buy your car and your Xtra too...

      No one is telling everyone to junk all of their existing modes of transportation and go buy a Bullit + Ecospeed assist. But for people who are in the market, this is an option.

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      • Jim March 8, 2011 at 9:26 am

        Yep--please read the comments below

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  • 9watts March 7, 2011 at 5:41 pm

    Jim,
    do we need to rehash the 'the price of gasoline at the pump doesn't reflect its true social, environmental, economic cost' argument? The fact that a Bullitt bicycle strikes you as expensive is valid as far as it goes, but comparing the mobility you'd get from buying it to the cost of gasoline for your car in one year is pretty flawed economics, even within our skewed accounting practices.

    But on another note, I'm curious what the folks at Air Cargo made of your vehicle, Joel? I'm familiar with the drill picking stuff up cargo from Scandinavia with a bike, but figured they/you might have gotten a kick out of loading your trailer with a forklift. Nice work!

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  • Jim March 7, 2011 at 5:54 pm

    Jason,

    Right, because cars are bad, period. Think about what you said next time you sit in a grid-powered or gasoline-powered vehicle.

    9watts, apparently you didn't read my comment. I'm so car light and Xtra heavy as to be practically car-free. Do this for me: live almost 50 years, add up how much gas you've used during that time, and post it. This isn't a competition of How Green Art Thou, but I've got you beat.

    People--read my comment, think about it, then respond with something relevant.

    Jim

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    • 9watts March 8, 2011 at 12:39 pm

      I'm not competing with you for green points. But I am interested in criticizing logic that to me seems flawed or misplaced or obsolete.

      By your own admission you don't rely heavily on your car. So extrapolating the cost of the fuel consumption of your little-used car over the next 13 years (yes I concede I didn't catch the year in your original post-sorry) and comparing that to the price of a high end cargo bike that holds no interest for you seems utterly beside the point. The two probably aren't even potential substitutes. if you truly have a 'car' then I'd like to see you stuff four Bullitts into it at the Air Cargo terminal. But maybe you have a pickup. Fine.
      The larger point I was trying to make is that 20th Century economic logic that takes gasoline prices at the pump as a (or too often THE) point of departure to show the absurdity of investing in a particular (mostly) human powered cargo solution local folks are trying to realize seems to be more about you and less about the panoply of future local non-fossil fuel powered transport vehicles, infrastructure, and the thinking that is going into making this viable.

      It is regrettable that some products must in the present be shipped by air from Europe. Believe me, we pay handsomely for that privilege. I'd rather make everything local too and soon enough I'm sure we'll collectively figure it out, but if Scandinavian designs work for some people, help them to switch to pedal power, offer uniquely appealing solutions to a problem you don't appear to recognize, what's to be criticized?

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      • Jim March 8, 2011 at 12:55 pm

        Sigh.

        You still haven't comprehended my my original post. Look at it. Again.

        Then read my replies to other comments.

        Seriously, do some posters only know the sound of what's in their head?

        ***Jim,

        You're welcome to debate in the comments, but your tone here is not appreciated. Please do not question other commenters' intelligence and comprehension skills. Thanks. -- JM, 3/10 at 8:58am

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    • Jason Skelton March 8, 2011 at 2:10 pm

      To clarify, my comment was relevant insofar as it is pointing out the negative externalities of air pollution of cars. There are other forms of air pollution but cars are sure a big one.

      My comment is just as relevant as you "just sayin" that an expensive bike is expensive. Cars are also expensive. In fact, even a cheap car costs as much as an expensive bike.

      If you don't get it now, then please forget I said anything.

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      • Jim March 8, 2011 at 3:31 pm

        The point is: get the context, get the point. Mine was made, but you chose to ignore it to get on the stump about "negative externalities", whatever that is.

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        • Greg March 9, 2011 at 8:40 pm

          I've read and reread your post. I've also read other commenters replies about your post, and your replies to those replies...

          I am at a loss to say what deeply profound point you think you made in your first point, and somehow you are unable to expound upon further.

          Someone once said "Seriously, do some posters only know the sound of what's in their head?"

          If you want others to understand you, you might need to explain what you think is painfully obvious. Or, you could just be smug in your own rightitude.

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          • Jim March 9, 2011 at 9:37 pm

            "Smug rightitude" and "deeply profound point" are epithets, sometimes used to draw people out.

            To address this first: reading and listening comprehension used to be held in high regard; now a carpetbombing of words is necessary to impart the simplest of ideas.

            So, for you and other reading-challenged here is a summary of points in my first post. Perhaps I should bullitt (sic) point it for you.

            "I'm extremely car light and ride an Xtra" --this means I hardly drive and have a cargo bike.

            " by the time I factor in the purchase price of a Bullit along with Ecospeed assist I would have been able to purchase enough gas to get me to the year 2123."--this means the cost of the bike will allow me to purchase enough gas for 112 years.

            That's it. Super profound. Super simple. Yet others have had issues of:

            a) in the case of 9watts, multiple subtraction errors. Which, if had been properly done, might have lead to a different argument on his part, but probably not.

            b) in the case of Jason's first response, the inability to see that, for all intents and purposes, I don't drive.

            c) in the case of Joel, inferring that he is crazy when, in fact, you see from my comments I would be him in a not-so-alternate universe.

            Again, context is everything. My responses were directed at their responses. For you to come in not knowing what's in my head (see above: comprehension) or theirs would lead to understandable
            confusion. And anger.

            And mudslinging.

            BTW if you have a question in the future please phrase it as such and not a statement. I'd be glad to answer it.

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  • Joel Grover March 7, 2011 at 6:03 pm

    9 watts...They look at me like I'm crazy...just like Jim thinks I'm crazy. I could buy a truck I suppose... but what fun is that? I am a cyclist...I ride bikes.

    The key is to look at the investment long term...hard for us to do most of the time I will admit.

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  • Jim March 7, 2011 at 6:45 pm

    I never said Joel was crazy. As a matter of fact, as a business owner, he's smart. If I were him I'd ride the same rig because: I can get it wholesale. I can write it off.

    Where we differ is hypothetically the cost is borne by me, not by the gov't (all of us as taxpayers) or with an industry discount. Again, do the math. Buy it if it makes sense economically or emotionally. Do it for a few decades. It's your life.

    For my life and my longtail, no thanks. I will have been dead for almost a hundred years before this makes sense to me.

    Jim

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  • Jean March 7, 2011 at 7:14 pm

    First off, let me say thanks for featuring this bike and the possibilities. I think it's incredible to be able to use bikes for more than a Sunday cruse. I am over 50 and own a sun trike and and EcoSpeed assist and love it. It's my daily commuter and I do everything in it. I can carry over 100 lbs of cargo in my custom built basket and go everywhere and do everything on it. So, congratulations to Splendid Cycles and to EcoSpeed for helping to shape the future for all of us.

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  • Hart Noecker March 7, 2011 at 7:25 pm

    Motorized bicycles are motorcycles, and are not permitted in bike lanes.

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    • Jene-Paul March 8, 2011 at 2:28 am

      Mr. Noecker:

      Your comment would be correct if the article dealt with internal combustion-powered bicycles, but instead, such a comment reflects neither the Oregon Revised Statutes (ORS) nor the Revised Code of Washington (RCW), both of which permit electric bicycle usage upon bicycle infrastructure, subject to certain parameters.

      Maybe you're thinking of someplace else?

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      • gumby March 8, 2011 at 10:56 am

        Electic bicycles can travel in bicycle lanes as long as the electric assist cuts out at 20mph. Don't be an elitist. Whether they are electric powered or human powered, bicycles are much more preferable than a car or truck. And don't forget - the calories required to pedal a bicycle require tractors and transportation - they are not carbon neutral.

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  • michweek March 7, 2011 at 10:11 pm

    Love it! I still want to get me one of those trikes b-line has and punch some windows in it! It'd be great for moving and camping!! When I think of moving my kitties on a normal bike I worry for them, that'd be stressful.

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  • Chris March 7, 2011 at 10:16 pm

    @ Hart Noecker -
    See this past BikePortland post (Jonathan, hope it is OK to post back to a past story):
    http://bikeportland.org/2010/08/26/e-bikes-the-law-and-you-38493

    I do not believe electric-assist bicycles are motorcycles as you state. Not sure what your point was, but by my understanding your comment is incorrect. Don't think there was even any mention in the story about Joel riding in a bike lane...

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  • Hart Noecker March 8, 2011 at 2:09 am

    Under state law, Electric motorbicycles are considered bicycles, but whether they are allowed access to bike lanes seems vague at best based on your link. If Harley's aren't allowed to ride down bike lanes, why should we allow coal powered bicycles to do he same?

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    • Jack March 8, 2011 at 8:00 am

      Harley's shouldn't be allowed to ride in bike lanes because in doing so they would be violating Oregon Noise Control statutes. In fact, they do so wherever they go. Wait, why are people riding Harley's not ticketed constantly? Why is it even legal to sell a vehicle that is designed to break the law in it's normal operation?

      Sorry, tangent.

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      • Toby March 8, 2011 at 12:25 pm

        Why? Because they are hopefully busy enforcing laws that are more important.

        The bikes I'm sure you are referring to are not designed to break the law in it's normal operation. In OE form, they are relatively quiet, the Screaming Eagle exhaust you can hear a mile away are after market accessories designed for "off road use only". It is true however that there are max db levels in the books that are seldom enforced. Much like there are a lot of bicycle riding violations that are seldom enforced. I see people spitting on the sidewalk daily as well as throwing ciggy butts on the ground, why aren't the cops writing them up? What about the smokers that can't seem to smoke more than 10 feet away from the door, in clear sight of the "no smoking within 25 feet" sign? Too bad the officers can't enforce ALL laws equally, eh?

        ;-)

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    • Chris March 8, 2011 at 11:44 am

      The link does comment on this specific to the City of Portland:
      "Portland City Code
      At the local level, the Portland Bureau of Transportation (PBOT) uses the ODOT definition of e-bikes in determining whether or not e-bikes are legally allowed to use bicycle infrastructure. This ensures consistency at the state and local levels."

      I think Harleys break all the requirements of the ODOT standard.

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  • Mike March 8, 2011 at 9:13 am

    Jonathan-

    I am suprised that you deleted my comment. I do not think it is inaccurate or unfair to state that the commenters here are not friendly to dissenting opinions.

    There have been numerous instances of a commenter being flamed because they are not completely in accordance with most of the responses. In my experience, this tends to happen more often when matters of cost or economics are questioned.

    Jim posted a comment re: his personal economics of purchasing this set up. It is met with responses telling him that his logic is "flawed" (though he misinterprets the post) and Joel even goes so far as to put words into Jim's mouth (or posting as it were).

    When, exactly, did Jim say he thought Joel was crazy?

    Why is it "flawed" to suggest a $7000+ cargo bike is not a good choice for Jim?

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    • Jonathan Maus (Publisher/Editor) March 8, 2011 at 9:18 am

      Mike,

      I deleted your comment because I didn't like the tone. Your comment above is fine because you take the time to explain yourself a bit more. Thanks.

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      • Mike March 8, 2011 at 9:52 am

        Understood. I don't agree, but hey, it's your blog.

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      • Jim March 9, 2011 at 10:31 pm

        Jonathan,

        Does BP have guidelines for comments? It seems to me, as Mike has pointed out, that due to multiple mis-interpretations of my original post a flame war has broken out.

        I'm doing my best to hold the moral high ground but can't spend every waking moment defending an innocuous comment. I'm a big boy and can handle myself in a debate, but the onus seems to be on the original poster, whereas a flamer can get away with a pithy personal attack.

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        • Jonathan Maus (Publisher/Editor) March 10, 2011 at 9:03 am

          Jim,

          The guidelines are to be nice to others and be as thoughtful and considerate in your arguments as possible. The other main guideline is that I, as sole publisher and owner of privately held site, have the right to delete and moderate comments as I see fit for whatever reason I deem necessary.

          I've re-read the thread and I see people simply trying to understand your comment and debate the merits of it. I also see that you are subtly questioning people's intelligence, which is never a good way to have a healthy conversation.

          And yes, to a certain extent I think it makes sense that the onus is on the original commenter. You are the one who made a statement, so it's up to you to defend what you said — just please do it respectfully and I'll watch others to make sure they are contributing and not simply "flaming".

          Thanks.

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          • Jim March 10, 2011 at 9:32 am

            If I've asked numerous people to actually read my post, when it's evident they haven't, what's a person to do?

            When the original post stands on its own as a personal economic point of view, others are allowed to cast aspersions on it?

            Nice trumps intelligence in a debate? Not a single person was "nice" to me, yet I'm being reprimanded for asking posters to read my initial post?

            I can see Mike's point about flamers: they lie in wait to pounce on a post they choose to read and interpret in their own terms, not as it was written or intended.

            If you were required to defend ad nauseum a post that said, "I'm tired today", wouldn't your tone change?

            To actually have to parse out the simplest phrase does say something about the reader, not me.

            I feel the guidelines of the comment sections allow for polemics, the flamers getting the unfair advantage since the onus is not equally upon them.

            As for others taking me to task here is my response to them:

            I've been car-light for decades; put your "green credentials" down. Let's see real-world actions over time to demonstrate a real commitment to sustainability. Otherwise, it's all just words into the ether.

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  • Sam Hass March 8, 2011 at 9:34 am

    I'll echo Chris's response. I'm not a lawyer, but at 1000 watts, an Ecospeed-equipped Bullit rider is likely legally able to use bike infrastructure like MUPs and bike lanes. Ebikes may not be a panacea for everyone, but for many people they are a great way to get out of the car more often, and that benefits us all. Bikes towing bikes - I like it.

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  • Dabby March 8, 2011 at 10:49 am

    I think electric bikes, with a motor applied, just aren't bikes anymore......

    They are like two wheeled go carts...
    That "maybe" shouldn't be in bike lanes.

    Like Rascals, Segways, and pocket rockets..

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  • Johnnie Olivan March 8, 2011 at 11:27 am

    We all might be changing our minds when we get old and can't pedal a bike as well as we could today...Electrical assists can be awesome for some people, but it would be foolish to get an electrical bike if you need the exercise.

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  • J_Ryde March 8, 2011 at 11:30 am

    I, for one, an impressed by this setup and can only imagine how positively the transportation dynamics in a city would be changed if more companies used this method of delivery. Call it a “real” bicycle or not, to prove whatever you feel you need to, in my opinion this is a far superior alternative to the internal combustion engine based delivery trucks and I’d much rather be stuck behind it than something with an exhaust pipe.

    Kudos to Joel, and to anyone else who chooses to make a commitment to this type of investment over a truck. And thanks Jonathan for posting it.

    And I support electric-assists. Admittedly they're no fun to work on as a bike mechanic, but if they can facilitate people accomplishing things by bicycle that they would not otherwise be able, then ride on!

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  • Joel Grover March 8, 2011 at 11:53 am

    To the E-bike naysayers, can't we all just get along? I find it ironic that we as a community strive to be accepted with equality in rights, infrastructure, funding, whatever only to exclude others because some of their electrons moving them along come from batteries instead of burritos? It's just a bike folks...it has a motor and a battery on it to make things a little easier when heavily loaded, or going up a hill, or for turning a 30 minute death march into a 20 minute ride. I pedal it just like a bike...ride it with clip less pedals even. It's purpose is to do work, not recreate. With a mpg equivalent in the hundreds, and a cargo capacity approaching 4 times the weight of the bike and trailer, it is hard to find a more efficient vehicle for short urban hauling. Why can't the naysayers acknowledge these extraordinary facts before judging it like it is some kind silly toy. The notion that law abiding e-assist bikes should be excluded from bike lanes IMO we must acknowledge is elitist. Probably the most amusing irony is that there are thousands of strong cyclists in Portland that are capable of sustained riding over the 20 mph speed limit of a e-bike...maybe we should exclude them from bike lanes as well? Please please please, let's stop this silliness right now.

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  • Jim March 8, 2011 at 12:06 pm

    Joel, I find it ironic you are playing the peacemaker/retailer card after you earlier put words in my mouth.

    re: ebikes. The convo is good--many don't want them in the bike lanes. Real people, real issue worth discussing.

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    • Joel Grover March 8, 2011 at 12:16 pm

      Jim, your first comment sounded to me a teany bit judgmental-which is fine I am not offended because I must acknowledge I am a little bit crazy when it comes to bikes like this...your further posts clarified what you were trying to say...It's cool.

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  • Jim March 8, 2011 at 12:29 pm

    Joel,

    My initial post was judgemental--of its cost. Whether you are offended or not isn't relevant.

    What I was "trying to say" was exactly what I said in my first post.

    Further posts to explicate were only necessary when comprehension of the first became an issue.

    Jim

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  • Hart Noecker March 8, 2011 at 1:33 pm

    Are rascal scooters allowed in bike lanes too?

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    • Jonathan Maus (Publisher/Editor) March 8, 2011 at 2:16 pm

      AFAIK, person mobility devices are currently allowed to operate in bike lanes. I don't have the exact ORS, but I've heard this recently from local disability advocates (who say they'd rather not have it be too widely known because they don't want to encourage the practice). And BTW, this is actually an issue in places like N. Williams where there are a lot of care homes, senior homes, and so on and there's a need to get around and sidewalks aren't as smooth/nice as wide bike lanes.

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      • El Biciclero March 8, 2011 at 5:17 pm

        ORS 814.500-514

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  • Sam Hass March 8, 2011 at 2:02 pm

    Do Rascals have functioning pedals, sub-1000 watt motors, and a top assist speed less than 20 mph? Then OR law says yes, they are. But I don't think I've seen a Rascal with pedals before.

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  • Sam Hass March 8, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    Actually, Hart, I'll admit I'm not familiar with the specific statutes for motorized wheelchairs, just ebikes. I'm sure that is covered in ORS 814 as well.

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  • Hart Noecker March 8, 2011 at 4:25 pm

    Dang, I was being sarcastic and ended up actually learning. Thanks, everyone.

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  • drew March 8, 2011 at 9:03 pm

    Quite the awesome hauling rig, Joel. You show that many truck trips could be replaced with cargo e-bike trips. That would be a very good thing.
    More e-bikes on the bike-path is fine with me. It means less cars on the road and more people enjoying the outdoors. I think it is the future, and the development of e-bikes will bring a lot more people into biking, and it will keep older riders from abandoning the bike.

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  • Brad March 8, 2011 at 11:27 pm

    Joel, You rock! The car culture of America has resulted in quite the unsustainable built infrastructure- both the phisical layout of our enviornment, and the mental way that we look at life and transportation. Your rig changes and challenges this infrastructure, and change can often bring reactionary backlash and fear. (think if when the digital camera came out and photographers said they would never use them) The fact is that we will need many forms of transportation on the road to make the change from car and oil centerd lives. I ride an electric assisted recumbent, would anyone like to say recumbents arn't "real" bikes? How about a little support and appriciation for people willing to put it out there and push the boundries of what's possible as a society. How about a little love for making something new when our way of life is proven to be unsustainable? Do we want to keep Portland weird, or keep Portland homoginus?

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  • METROFIETS March 9, 2011 at 6:32 am

    Why is this bike a screaming deal? Consider the following:

    Buy a used car (a fairly reliable one- about 6 years old) for $3800 - cash.

    Every month you will PAY about $424 / month to own your car. That's almost $9000 cash out of pocket for the first year of ownership.
    Try asking your boss for a 9K raise as see what happens.

    Oh, and after five years of ownership, you will have spent just over $29,000!
    That's a lot of trips to Cabo, my friend.

    THE NUMBERS (hope I got them right).

    Let's assume you get five years out of the car (our bike frames have a lifetime warranty BTW)
    5 years -- $760 / year or about $63 / month.
    Insurance -- $500 / year or about $45 / month.
    Oil changes and tires about $600 or about $50 / month
    Maintenance -- about $50 / month. (wipers, fluids, belts, filters, new bulbs car wash. etc)
    Gas -- (assuming you fill your tank once a week)15 gallons @ $3.65 = $216 / month

    You PAY about $424 / month for a car you bought "free and clear"!

    Again, that's almost $9000 for the first year and $29,000 over five years.

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    • spare_wheel March 9, 2011 at 1:55 pm

      Where to begin...

      I pay $200/year for insurance (progressive myrate metering), $40-100/year for maintenance, oil changes, and car washes. I hardly ever drive the thing and fill up the tank once every 1-3 months.

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    • Jim March 9, 2011 at 10:11 pm

      I plan on keeping my cars until I die, so the economies of scale you cite aren't even close to what I pay.

      Sincerely,
      Jim, car-light and not apologetic about it.

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  • Mike March 9, 2011 at 9:46 am

    Will you ride your bike to Cabo?

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    • Joel Grover March 9, 2011 at 12:46 pm

      Mike, Ha, I have fantasized of building a PV panel top for the trailer that will continuously charge a battery bank. My friend who works at Civic Solar in San Francisco thinks it would work as long as I could still have access to a plug every now and then or if I am not in a hurry on cloudy days...so yea, Mexico here I come! However,that would be way to much cargo capacity for me as I am a seasoned ultra-light bike tourer used to traveling light. On the other hand, this would be the ultimate hi-tech/low carbon vehicle for long distance travel in comfort on a budget with plenty of time on your hands.

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      • 9watts March 9, 2011 at 1:04 pm

        Joel,
        Homepower Magazine did a nifty story about just this setup in Feb. 2001. Here's a link:
        http://tinyurl.com/6xtcqdm The article starts on p. 20.
        It is a large file, but well worth it. I have a hard copy if you want to borrow it.

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        • Joel Grover March 9, 2011 at 4:27 pm

          9watts...Ha, I remember reading that article 10 years ago, but forgot about it. Inspirational. Lucky for me, most of this is already figured out...ie the e-assist aspect of the bike is golden...the boys at ECOSPEED have created a wonderful system that works really well...and a lot more powerful than the unit in the article. The issue of braking is something I have paid attention to as I have been using trailers for almost 20 years and have experienced the jack knife going down hills. This is why I think cargo bikes make great platforms for e bikes pulling trailers. With enough mass on the front, where the braking forces are applied, the weight of the trailer, even heavily loaded is a non issue. The key is balancing the weight between bike and trailer and not exceed a 2:1 trailerload/bikeload ratio....this is why a generic e-bike would not work quite as well. I also like the aspect of having a working cargo bike to do the work I need most of the time...then on the BIG days hook up the trailer to do the BIG heavy hauling. Creating a roof of PV panels on the trailer...seems easily done-as long as I consult someone who could design the system so it works and not try to do it on the cheap where I ultimately pay down the road with pesky problems. I suspect a set-up like this will be what I use when I am a crazy eccentric old man wanting to continue bike touring/traveling on a low carbon budget and plenty of time on my hands.

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  • Jean March 9, 2011 at 9:20 pm

    From one eccentric old lady, ride on my friend ride on someday we shall pass on the road and we will both be smiling.

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  • 9watts March 10, 2011 at 9:43 am

    I've been car-light for decades; put your "green credentials" down. Let's see real-world actions over time to demonstrate a real commitment to sustainability.

    Three days ago you yourself argued that your point was *not* about totting up green points (while asserting your superiority):
    "This isn't a competition of How Green Art Thou, but I've got you beat."

    Maybe folks just aren't interested in your math? Maybe it doesn't make sense to them? Maybe they noticed that in your calculation you forgot to include the cost of storing $6,000 worth of gasoline for over a century. The nuclear power industry also does this. The leave the long term storage costs off their balance sheets.

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    • Jim March 10, 2011 at 10:13 am

      "Maybe folks just aren't interested in your math?"

      You certainly weren't, as you ignored the numbers. Numbers inform the debate. I see you've taken some possession of them yourself.

      So to summarize your point: your numbers don't matter to me, but mine do.

      Yeah, I didn't want to drag out the green card but you forced my hand. I've earned them, after all.

      What I didn't factor in my green points rating is using "stored" grid power for this missive.

      My bad.

      Wait--I see you're using them too!

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