Wanted: Your feedback about comments on BikePortland
Posted by Jonathan Maus (Publisher/Editor) on December 1st, 2010 at 11:14 am
are their "least favorite" part of the site.
I want to share a few things regarding comments here on BikePortland.
Regular readers know that my efforts to foster quality, productive, and respectful comments has been (and will continue to be) a work in progress. I place an extremely high value on comments, giving them equal weight and consideration as the words I publish in stories. What this means is that I willingly spend a lot of time reading them, responding to them and editing and/or deleting them when necessary.
I hope some of you have noticed that the quality and tone of comments have improved considerably in recent months (they were a big enough concern in August 2008, that I had to address the issue head-on). The reason for this is simple: I'm spending more time monitoring them. Part of my motivation to do this has been very clear feedback on this issue from readers.
In our recent reader survey, 49% of respondents said comments were their "least favorite" part of BikePortland.
I'm tackling this issue not just with increased moderation, but also by looking at new designs. You have probably noticed the change in how they are formatted. The new comment section allows you to upload a profile image (go here to get one) and makes it easy to reply directly below other commenters.
Please give us some feedback on how you like this new comment system compared to what we had before.
On the design note, we are putting some things in place right now that will result in a complete design makeover of BikePortland by this coming spring. How we design the comments section will be a major part of the re-design (and please note that because of an impending re-design, I'm not looking to implement a major new commenting system).
I'd love to hear your thoughts about comments on BikePortland (especially whether or not I should keep these new-fangled ones, or go back to the old way). As always, I take your feedback seriously and will use it to guide the future of this site. Thank you... and thanks for commenting!
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The new comment system is much nicer, much easier to follow the thread. My #1 and #2 items on the wishlist would be to require real names, and to ruthlessly ban trolls.
RecommendedThe ability to reply directly to other comments directly is so valuable and makes conversations much easier to track.
RecommendedThe only additional feature I would love to see would be "numbering comments" so it is easier to start where you left off. If I knew the last time I read comments there were 50 comments made, I could make sure I only read ones that are 51 or higher. This is especially important with the new format so you can tell by the number of a comment if it is new to the original comment.
Hope that made sense and thanks for all you do for Portland.
Jeremy,
I'd like the numbers back too... I just can't figure out how to do it. I'll fwd this to our Wordpress guru and hopefully he can make it happen. Thanks.
RecommendedNumbers and nested commenting seem like they would work very badly together. The numbering of the replies would be pretty random, and there would be gaps in the numbering of the top-level comments. Numbering assumes a linear sequence, and nested replies ruin that assumption.
Recommendedforgot about that nick. thanks. we'll think about it more and do some tweaks if we can.
RecommendedHow about adding letters to nested comments, like an outline (e.g. 1a, 1b, then 1b1, 1b2)?
RecommendedThat would work. You could also do 1, 1.1, 1.4.2, etc. But I think either of these would be pretty confusing.
RecommendedNick, that makes sense. I guess the time stamp on the comments essentially allows for the same thing.
Also, how do I add a picture to my comments?
RecommendedThe comment uses gravatar for the icons. Go to gravatar.com to set it up.
RecommendedThanks!
RecommendedI like the ability to direct replies, which is the main difference I noted. So, I support the new comment system!
RecommendedI find it very surprising that so many are unhappy with the comments here. I've learned a lot of interesting stuff from them, and they give a lot of context as far as showing what people think about certain subjects that I might be unfamiliar with.
Maybe you could do another survey specifically about comments and ask *why* people have such an issue with them? I just don't understand it...
RecommendedNick, I completely agree with you. In my (of course biased) mind, I think the comments are actually one of the best parts of the site....and there were people in the survey who echoed that feeling.
I also think that many people involved with the bike movement (esp. here in Portland) have a strong aversion to any criticism or negativity... so when they see it arise on the comments here, they simply look away (and they stop commenting unfortunately).
I don't like outright negativity or meanness either... but I do value and try to allow/foster negative opinions if they are done thoughtfully and with facts/information to back them up.
RecommendedI agree with this, Jonathan.
I think the comments are one of the best parts, among several, and it's disconcerting that some readers would want to shut down commentary that they personally don't care for. As others note, there is much to be learned by hearing from others, whether we agree or disagree, or our feelings get riled by what we read.
As for the new design, I prefer a chronological method as seen in the previous design. I understand the value of the direct reply to specific comments, but as someone who reads it all, it is more difficult now to check in again and determine if there are new comments since I last checked.
Overall, I'm generally pleased with your approach to comments. Your welcoming approach coupled with your concerns about civility create an environment that brings in diverse perspectives rarely seen in blog comments sections.
RecommendedWhich is exactly what Jonathan is doing himself, by sanitizing the comments. Hiding dissenting views.
RecommendedSure there may be some mean and hurtful comments posted here but is there the need to somehow hide this, what is the reason, to make Bike Portland commenters sound better than the commenters at the Oregonian website.
I think that statement is pure BS. I do not believe Jonathan has ever "hidden dissenting comments" just because they represented a view other than his own. I believe he has deleted derogatory comments, foul language and personal attacks, as well as deleted the (still far too frequent) content-free mumblings of a specific few posters who just can't seem to come up with anything other than bitching to post. Those are the people who I think are being singled out for the "unhappy with comments" feelings.
RecommendedThe whole point of a comments section is for productive dialogue. Name-calling and outright meanness contributes nothing.
It also prevents people from commenting. If it's clear that no one is taking anyone else's opinions seriously and just being nasty, why would I want to jump in? But if people are being polite (and you can be polite even if disagreeing strongly) then I'm more likely to add my thoughts.
RecommendedJonathan, you've done a remarkable job of managing your comments. They might drive me mad sometimes, but at least they're valuable enough for me to read. With the exception of Joe Rose's diplomatic management work on his Hard Drive blog, the same cannot be said of most oregonlive comment sections. They're not even worth reading. Thanks for working to maintain comments as a valuable resource and forum.
The new format is good, too. Will these profiles be linked to the forum profile eventually?
RecommendedLOVE the new comment system. Much easier to follow replies, although it seems not everyone is using that function just yet.
I would love to be able to rate comments or thumbs up/down comments -- that might add another fun level of crowd-sourced comment editing to the site. For the wish list!
I find the level of discourse on bikeportland to be above average for the internet, mostly due to the care BikePortland shows in its moderation. Thanks for that!
RecommendedI love when websites have the thumbs up/thumbs down method of mob-editing comments. The comments aren't deleted, but if there's a certain ratio of thumbs-down the comment is hidden and you have to click on it for it to open up.
RecommendedI've liked rating systems, too, when I've seen them; last I knew, the Slashdot comment software was available as an installable package for this purpose.
RecommendedIf the replies are nested, then you may not realize if new ones are added, particularly if you come back later and start reading where you think you left off.
I say go back to numbering sequentially. The commenter's referring back to post # so-and-so seemed to work.
RecommendedI'm with Nick--the comments are my "most favorite" part of the site. I usually learn a lot from others' perspectives and appreciate the ability to carry on discussions of issues raised by the articles. I don't understand how they could be so disliked by so many.
Regarding the format of the comments, it is a no-win. On one hand, I like to be able to quickly pick out the most recent comments made, but when those are replies to other comments, they can be hard to find. On the other hand, it is much nicer to be able to respond directly to comments rather than having to start my own comment with "dear user at comment #x", and inversely, having to scan for "user at comment#" to find all comments related to a particular conversation. To summarize, both the old and new comment formats have their advantages and drawbacks; it is a matter of whether you want to optimize for chronology or conversation threading.
RecommendedA simple post number works.
RecommendedWhile I am still getting used to it, I do like the new comment format. I personally like the comment section, though and think you do a fine job of moderating the comments. It can be a tough job as a comment that could be viewed as a troll by some, may not be viewed as one by others.
And, thanks for always responding to my comment when I ask you a specific question.
RecommendedJonathan,
I agree that the tone is better than it was, and definitely better than other blogs in general, and appreciate your work on that. But I still understand now negative comments would drive away more thoughtful commenters. And by "negative comments," I am not referring to "constructive criticism". I think we can all recognize the difference when we see it in writing.
It is a challenging task to moderate. Here is a very interesting article in the NYT regarding just this issue, the psychological roll that anonymity plays in comments, as well as some ideas some people are coming up with in order to better moderate comments. Maybe there are some that could be useful to you.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/30/opinion/30zhuo.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=trolls&st=cse
RecommendedIf you don't like the comments you don't have to read them.
RecommendedWhat is a "troll?'
Hope I am not one. At least I do not hang out under bridges--unless it's Sellwood or CRC.
Recommended+1 to real names. Don't know how you'd enforce it though.
RecommendedTo support using real names: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/11/30/anonymity
RecommendedAs someone "involved in the bike movement" my semi-aversion to the comments doesn't have to do with the differing views it has more to do with tone. I prefer listening to people opposed to something lay them out in an intelligent manner rather than just throwing out gripes, barbs, and negativity for negativity sake and sometimes that is what the comments feel like. When you get the 'trolls' getting in the first couple comments with some sort of snide bit of "see that's why this sucks..." or "yeah, whatever bikers are still a bunch of..." it taints the tone of the page.
RecommendedI do think the comment section is very valuable and am highly impressed with how you moderate them Jonathan. I also think it has improved over the years thanks to you staying on top of them. I think the comments are the least favorite section because the rest of BP gives us such a warm feeling where as we can sometimes walk away from the comments feeling a bit icky.
I do like the new layout. Look it's my bike blender =)
The new comments are better.
I would like thumbs up and thumbs down functionality for comments.
RecommendedThen possibly the ability to sort comments by time or popularity.
I'm one of the people who chose the comment section as "least favorite" due to negative/unpleasant comments. I'm not sure that I would say that a year from now, given that the comment section has become much more fun to read in the past few months.
Honestly, I don't want to come onto the BikePortland site and read comments that are either rude or lacking in factual, relevant points. I welcome only polite, interesting comments, and I find that positive comments are almost always polite.
Maybe my preference for polite and fact-based comments makes me thin-skinned. It's a reality about how I want to spend my time and energy.
RecommendedSo thank you, Jonathan, for the increased comment moderation! And thank you, commenters, for the pleasant and fascinating comments recently!
RecommendedI preferred the old chronological comment format and numbers. Often a reply comment is in response to a theme rather than to an individual, and the nesting does make a hash of checking back to see how the dialog is progressing. At least that's my opinion.
I'm not particularly enthusiastic about the idea of real names; I think the comments here are fairly productive and civil (considering how highly opinionated the crew here tends to be) and I don't think changing the name policy would really impact civility.
I've only lost one comment to moderation (a particularly clever quip related to helmets, or so I thought when I typed it...)
I love the comments generally - I agree one learns a lot here - or at least learns that reasonable people can stridently disagree on some issues while remaining generally aligned on big picture matters. I would hate to see them disappear entirely because moderating them is too much of a resource hog
RecommendedReal names can be an issue. I seem to remember one poster using their real name on here and some one going out and finding their address and other information and posting it because they didn't like the view expressed.
RecommendedNot to mention everything is indexed here on google. That's why usernames and avatars exists on the interwebs.
RecommendedWe should have a comment party where we all show up at a bar and try to figure out the identity of everyone else. That way we can slug it out and leave the negativity at the bar.
RecommendedI love the comments, but don't like the new system because of the lack of numbering which makes it tough to remember where you were at... also, you have to go back and see if anybody replied to a message rather than just reading the newest ones at the bottom...
I'd like to see the numbers return, and stay put... meaning that if you deleted comment 50 then we never see a comment 50 again... so annoying when people reference the comment number and it gets deleted so somebody else's comment is now in their slot...
I like that includes the reply text though, just not that it sticks it up with the original post because it's not linear that way...
if this were threaded with links then I could just use browser history to tell where I've been like in the forums, but that's not the case...
I think using the forum registration in order to able to comment would be a good idea... less trolls and more accountability if you're registered...
RecommendedNew replies should appear with a different background color when you revisit the post.
RecommendedOne problem with being able to comment a reply directly after what you are replying to is that the second comment thread can become buried such that people only see what the first commenter wanted to talk about. Systems that let you see the threads, and expand them help solve this problem, but if two people start similar threads at the same time they stay separate. I don't think it's a solved problem.
RecommendedSame here. In fact the comments are too good. I spend too much time reading them. ;-) But, often there is some gem of information or a link to be found in the comments that I would have missed otherwise.
The comments here are far above the typical blog comments seen elsewhere.
I like the new format.
Recommended>and editing and/or deleting them when necessary
imo, censorship of posts has been heavy handed. for example, even though i rarely ever agreed with him vance longwell had interesting things to say. other posters have been harassed for "negativity" that imo was entirely in the eye of the beholder.
>have a strong aversion to any criticism or negativity...so when they see it arise.. they simply look away...and they stop commenting
i have a very strong aversion to echo chambers.
Recommendedspare_wheel,
I gave Vance and many others quite a bit of leeway and ability to voice their opinions. Please realize comment moderation is not a black/white science.
As for echo chambers, I share your aversion to them! I'm actually striving to create a space where people with new and different (and sometimes opposing) views feel welcome. thanks.
RecommendedVance had some weird things to declare on his personal blog -- like how he hadn't gotten laid in 20 years, by choice. A bit of a misogynist and declared war on the "house of green."
RecommendedAnd yet his rants will occasionally point directly at the "elephant in the room" that everyone is willfully ignoring.
RecommendedVerbal sifting skills are vastly under rated, both on the input and output side of the equation.
Regarding the reply system and know which are new. Another website I visit does let you reply to a post, and have a nesting system, but also shows NEW next to recent comments, so as you scroll down the page, they're easy to find. This does require having a login though.
RecommendedVance is one of my favorite features of BikePortland; is he gone/banned/left in a huff? that would make me sad.
RecommendedI sometimes wish I could edit my comments after they have been posted, either to correct myself or change a misspelling or wrong word, bad wording, etc. Most forums allow this (though comments aren't forums) and edited responses are marked as such. I like the new threading as well, though I also miss the numbers for some reasons noted previously. Perhaps collapsable threads would be cool so that you can skip replies you've read, and flagging threads with new comments you haven't read will keep you from missing any details. Registration is an option that might help cut down on trolling and could be linked to your forum account (if you have one) as well to streamline things for regular commenters. Regardless of what happens, BikePortland remains one of the most relevant webpages for my life, and I appreciate your hard work in doing it well.
RecommendedAlthough I don't comment much, I do appreciate reading the generally constructive and supportive tone of the comments here. While I can understand that the comment moderation may drive away some dissenting views, I think that the ridiculous negativity of an unmoderated board drives more people away. Add that to the inevitable fighting and loss of focus that comes about when trolls run rampant, I think it's a small price to pay to have an editor deleting some contributions. After all, this is a service that is provided to us free of charge, Jonathan has no obligation to allow users free reign on the board he works so hard to maintain.
Looking at the commentary section on Oregonlive shows pretty clearly how out of control and destructive a completely open forum can be.
RecommendedI really like and depend on your site for info about whats going on in the bicycle world. I like the old way and so far I like your new way of doing things. As for the comment section I do like reading what people are thinking and if I don't like what some are saying I just go on to the next comment or end my reading altogether. Please keep up the great work.
RecommendedI like the new system because of the direct replies. And I think the comments are one of the best parts of the site too Jonathan. And I appreciate the work that goes into moderating them.
RecommendedI like the newfangled comments. The numbering, I don't miss, since referring to someone else's comment is now done without numbers via the reply or quote buttons. Unfortunately yes, you lose the numbers as a way of keeping track of where you were in the stack, but you can at least still remember the time & day of the last new comment (i.e. not a nested reply) that you've read, which is lot more vivid, because you can picture where you were and what you were doing at the time the comment was being submitted! That was a hell of a run-on sentence.
Meanwhile I don't mind not seeing every nested reply, because I find that usefulness, relevancy and enjoyability typically seem to drop off quickly on the commenter-to-commenter replies. Or at least that's where all the namecalling and frivolous stuff seems to start, nine times out of ten. I like the idea or ideal of a multi-sided dialogue or forum where anyone can address anyone else; however it seems typical that if the article scores a 10, a comment on the article can only hope for an 8, and a comment on that comment probably rates a 5, and a comment on THAT comment is already mentioning Hitler.
So, if you don't even bother to read nested comments, you're getting more original and less reactionary content, more relevancy to the original article that you bothered to read because it interested you, and less Hitler.
RecommendedPS, if you don't want to nest, use "quote" instead of "reply"
RecommendedPPS: In fact, by way of suggestions for improvement, I say, down with the Reply button, huzzah the Quote button.
RecommendedJonathan,
Thanks, as always, for your efforts at continuous improvement!
I'm surprised to hear that nearly half of respondents were so down on comments in general. I often find them informative, articulate, and helpful. That said, I usually just skim them and bail when they degenerate into personal flaming.
I, too, like real names.
I, too, like numbers.
Your increased attention to the comments section is noticed and appreciated.
RecommendedCheers,
JV (Jonathan Vinson)
BikePortland is one of the only places on the internet where I actually break my Never Read The Comments rule.
And while I'm all in favor of dissenting views (and get a lot out of reading them when they appear here), I have no problem with discouraging, disallowing or deleting comments by bike-haters who come here for no other purpose than to spew "Why don't you stop at stop signs and pay road taxes?" rhetoric, or to call names (or worse, wish harm to bike riders).
The new format works well for me. Easier to read, too--the visual layout is kinder to the eyes.
RecommendedOne last thought: Jonathan, if 47% of your population didn't like the comment section, they might be unlikely to comment even on this post. Maybe you could put your email at the end of the post so the non-comment-inclined would be better represented?
RecommendedI'm one who was in that 49%. Comments in general are among my favorite and most useful parts of the site. But those comments that are mean-spirited with little-to-nothing constructive to say are a poison.
To me, the point of most comments is to make your point of view, and then leave it to others to decide if they agree. (Some comments are just made to add flair to the existing post and not to express a point of view - these are fine, but not what I'm referring to here.) Having a debate via comments seems to often be ineffective .
I would actually like to see a policy where for each article posted, each commenter gets to post one comment and that's it. If you have a point to make, make the effort to clearly express it because you only get one chance (before the next time an article on the same topic arises).
I don't care a lot whether real names are used or not (3-speeder says a lot more about where I'm coming from than my real name), but maybe some system can be implemented where whatever name that is used is associated with a 5-digit password that only the name owner knows. This would prevent a random person from commenting using other people's user names.
The only person who gets to say whatever they want on this blog is Jonathan. It's his blog. Anyone else acting as a parasite (in a literal sense of that word) to make it their blog too, acting like they can say whatever they want, ignoring common courtesy and standards of social politeness, are abusing their comment privileges. Abuse has consequences - complaints of "censorship" in this context are just a failure to ackowledge the abuse they are responsible for.
RecommendedI would hate to see a one-comment rule enacted here. I would agree that a lot of times debates held via comments are ineffective at swaying anyone's point of view, but a dissenting point of view--perhaps restated in multiple ways--at least makes others aware of the points of view that are out there. There are those times, too, where a constructive discussion is had via comments, in which one comment inspires ideas which are then expressed in follow-on comments. To disallow such discussions/debates by enforcing a one-comment rule would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, IMO.
RecommendedI have always enjoyed the comments section immensely- still do. +1 to those who have found it surprising that nearly half of readers say it's their least favorite part. Also, like others, I have mixed feelings about the new system- I love the reply, but miss the numbers. Each has its pros and cons, so whatever works for you. I will continue reading and enjoying them either way.
RecommendedRegarding the quality of comments, this post comes a day after an interesting article in the New York Times about the "online disinhibition effect" http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/30/opinion/30zhuo.html
RecommendedRather than trying to shut out people from having a voice, it would make more sense to have the people who aren't interested in reading the comments just not read the comments. After all, there's a reasonable expectation in this country to be able to speak your mind. There's no expectation for everyone else to listen.
RecommendedI like being able to reply directly to the comment. It is hard to keep up on reading those new posts that are 1/2 way up the page. I'm sure I miss a lot of them.
RecommendedI've been censured a few times, sometimes justly so when the conversation starts heating up, sometimes because my opinion or political view is not liked.
Needless to say the comments section is my favorite part. I usually read all the stories and just comment on the ones where I want to contribute. I do appreciate the work Jonathan puts into bringing us these stories.
I wish there was a spell check feature as I am too lazy to look up words and I suck at spelling.
Firefox and the After the Deadline Add-on do wonders for the spelling problems.
Recommendedthanks Perry-
RecommendedSomeone sugested to me before "wordweb" its great, i just don't allways use it. (free download)
It seems like there are probably multiple reasons for someone to have said in the poll that they don't like the comments section, which would make that 49% number meaningless without some further explanation.
Recommended"If the replies are nested, then you may not realize if new ones are added, particularly if you come back later and start reading where you think you left off. ..." OnTheRoad December 1, 11:50 am
That does happen, which is one of the drawbacks of the nested comments setup. It can take some scrolling up and down to pick out additional replies since a readers last visit, which can be a hassle. When there aren't a lot of comments to a thread, the nested comments feature kind of streamlines browsing the comments. Mostly, I'll probably just continue using the cut and paste quote with name and date means of replying to a comment.
For a weblog/forum such as bikeportland, ground rules for commenting, and a willingness, and ability to apply them are essential if it's to be constructive. In past, bikeportland's mods have let some very mean comments stand. The tendency towards allowing that to happen seems to have been corrected somewhat.
Even the O has been recently making greater efforts to weed out some of more offensive and mean comments from its online site. As necessary, every once in a while, the writer or editors post a reminder amongst the comments, letting people know that they're obliged to adhere to a user agreement in exchange for the opportunity to post a comment. Of late, maus seems to have done some of that also.
That's really all that should be necessary. People have to start somewhere, and I think that obliging all of them to include real names as a condition to have the opportunity to post a comment, can have the effect of discouraging worthwhile comments that might be otherwise posted by people whose skills at expressing an idea in writing are at an early development stage.
RecommendedIt's not so much the comments as it is the commenters. Is there any way to switch those out? Maybe with some people who feel less entitled?
RecommendedThings are very biased and heavily censored here.
RecommendedPerhaps a user rating or reputation system would be helpful? For example, I would love to de-rate commenters like this that contribute little or nothing beyond adding to that 49% dissatisfaction number among the rest.
Recommended+5
Also see: http://xkcd.com/810/
It speaks to the issue of useless and detracting commenters.
Alt-text is particularly relevant:
Recommended"And what about all the people who won't be able to join the community because they're terrible at making helpful and constructive co-- ... oh."
Another 2 cents worth:
The comments are at least as important as they news.
I liked the linear format, but whatever.
The least amount of editing or censorship is paramount.
Would I ever stop reading BP no matter how it was changed? Probbly not!
RecommendedI have stopped commenting because I had so many censored. I never thought they were out of line, just comments about the content, etc.
RecommendedYour censorship stopped me and in fact, stopped me from visiting this site.
I have not looked at it in weeks. The new comment look is not bad.
Your sucking up to Adams and the "powers at be", whether they were good for cycling or not is the reason for most of my comments and probably why a lot of them were censored.
You want to be the only voice for cycling in this town, and you want "access" like most suck up "jpurnalists", so you don't want to hear valid criticism about you style or substance.
It is your site and I have enjoyed a lot of it, but your editorial style would suit Faux news junkies.
old&slow,
I'm not sure if you realize how much I weigh the content of comments before decided to edit/delete them.
Saying I "suck up to adams and the powers that be" is simply an insult that is not based in any reality whatsoever. In fact, a lot of your comment is very insulting to me and I don't agree with it all. However, I will leave it because I respect your opinion and I am not now - nor have I ever been - unwilling to hear criticisms about my style.
thanks.
RecommendedOld n Slow-
RecommendedFor what its worth, I like your comments even though we often have a difference of opinion. Don't stop posting
Red Five,
I delete a lot of your comments not out of a bias but because they are sometime mean-spirited and often seem to be left for no other reason than to stir the pot. I have tried to email you directly to discuss this but have not heard back. As you know, I always leave your comments when they are above the belt.
And this site is far from "heavily censored".
Thanks.
Recommendedthere's only one sensible reply to Red Five: Stay on target, Stay on target!
RecommendedAny censorship is way too much censorship. This isn't China!
RecommendedOld&Slow,
I just checked the database and found that you've left 200 comments on this site over the years on a variety of topics and some of them are openly critical of me and/or coverage on this site.
Just an FYI and I think it shows this site has no bias... except against mean/hurtful/insulting/inappropriate comments.
RecommendedI don't understand how comments can be anyone's least favorite part of the site. If you don't want to read them they are extremely easy to avoid. It's fine to insist on civility.
RecommendedIt's because they are a bunch of whiners. Oops- sorry whiners- didn't mean to diss you
Recommendedha... good one Jim
RecommendedIt would be nice to have some emoticons to express some emotion
RecommendedIf you can't express emotions with words, You're Doing It Wrong™. There's a good community college down in Salem that can help you.
Recommended;-)
Recommendedit's a just a blog, you don't need college for that, and I like the little smiley faces
RecommendedIn the information age, your ability to write reflects directly on how people perceive your intelligence.
RecommendedI generally judge intelligence by the content of the message rather than writing skills
RecommendedThe posters on these blogs bring a lot of valueable cycling experiance, there is a lot to learn from most everyone posting here regardless of their literacy skills. There are some people that have some very good writing skills and crappy ideas
RecommendedComments add a lot to the site. I think even those who would say its the least favorite part would agree. Not easy to moderate a wide spectrum of opinion but you do an outstanding job.
RecommendedSkimming over the names to the authors who tend to have thoughtful responses works for me. Having read lots of comments, this is easy to do. But now and then I catch myself reading a grumpy post that has no value from a poster who I know is not worth reading.
Not sure if I like the nesting. I feel like something good could be missed.
I am loving the new threaded comments feature (and would love it even more if I could collapse a thread I knew I wasn't interested in and not see further comments) and I feel that your increased moderation over the last few months has resulted in a much more civilized discussion.
RecommendedI still often find myself shaking my head at comments I see on so many threads that seem knee-jerk negative, and often have a shrill, judgmental tone that IMHO does not foster open discussion. Those comments, luckily, are not the majority, but they still can sometimes make reading comments feel like a chore or like having to sit next to your bitter, loud uncle at a family dinner.
Jon, nice work monitoring the comments. Seems like a huge, often thankless task.
RecommendedMy favorite type of commenting system is that used by Slashdot. Things I like about it are the threading, but mostly the community method of ranking comments' "goodness" and the ability to filter comments based on that ranking.
However I'm pretty certain that WordPress would not support anything like the Slashdot comments.
Jonathan-- have you considered asking a few individuals whose judgment you trust to assist with moderating? IIRC, WordPress does allow you to share some of the editorial load in that way. And I think that you are going to have to think about doing this sooner or later. You don't want to be the single point of failure that causes the blog to break when you can't do the job for a few days for some reason.
RecommendedI really, really like Slashcode's commenting system. I've yet to see any other system that can even remotely hold a flame to it. Problem with the one on Slashdot is they have an arbitrary limit on the number of friends and foes you can have, which, unfortunately, arbitrarily limits it's usefulness.
RecommendedI said comments were my least favorite part of the site. The people who say "don't like comments? don't read 'em!" are, to me, similar to the person in the headlight discussion who says, "don't like being blinded by my too-bright headlight? look away. your safety is not my problem." I'm pretty sure JMaus is looking for a discussion of why so many people dislike the comments, not looking for a simple solution to the problem that is those people.
I've been riding on city streets, this one and others, for 20+ years and it wasn't until I started reading the comments on BikePortland that I found out people on other bikes actually judge and categorize and pigeonhole each other into nasty little weird categories based entirely on 10-second passing glances. I never believed people on bikes were a better breed - we're still people after all - so the judging is normal and human, I get that. It was just news to me that people on bikes actually have a bike-specific hierarchy based on its own set of visual clues. Even in response to a report of a serious crash and/or injury, it seems it won't take long before the comments get to what kind of bike he/she was riding, because that will tell you what kind of rider and, ultimately, what kind of person we're talking about...
I don't want the comments eliminated, never did. I said the comments were my least favorite part of the site because I would rather have kept riding for the rest of my years without knowing. But you can't unknow Santa's not real, either, so ride on.
RecommendedIt takes a pretty radical leap in logic and patriotism to advocate violating people's rights to free speech by likening it to a potentially deadly traffic safety issue.
RecommendedThanks for that comment Scoot. Really appreciate that feedback. Also thanks to everyone who has responded to this thread. Very helpful stuff.
RecommendedThanks, Jonathan, for all the very hard work you have put into BP over the years. It is my home page, the first thing I look at on-line.
I always enjoy the comments, and must apologize for any untowardly posts I might have made.
Recommended1. Threaded/unthreaded: Have them both! I've seen comments sections on other sites that support a user-selected switch that allows either view. If you want to see replies to a given comment, switch threading on. If you want to see the latest, switch it off.
Recommended2. Real names: no. As long as Jonathan can see a real email address (and can block it) that's enough. 3. Vance: I remember Vance following me on Twitter for a while, and I told him I'd follow him if he wasn't a jerk. I told him why "church of green" and "nanny state" were insults — because he MEANT THEM TO BE — and he used them anyway. So I stopped following him. Then he said some completely asinine things about how he had the right to discriminate against others, and if anyone objected, well they were just discriminating against HIM. So I blocked him. I'm sure Jonathan also ran out of patience with Vance.
Peejay,
just to clarify to you and everyone else... I have never once banned anyone from commenting on this site - including Vance. He has simply chosen to not comment as much lately. Anyone who says I'm heavy-handed or that this site "censors" too much should remember that I always keep the door open for nasty/mean commenters to reform themselves and live to comment another day.
RecommendedJonathan:
Let's just say you gave Vance a longer leash than I would have, but your strategy is probably better. As for the switchable threaded/inline comments: is it possible?
RecommendedI like the new thread system.
Recommendedme too. it's like jonathan actually read the feedback from the survey i submitted =)
Recommended"... The people who say "don't like comments? don't read 'em!" are, to me, similar to the person in the headlight discussion who says, "don't like being blinded by my too-bright headlight? look away. your safety is not my problem." ..." scoot 10:16 am
It should be far, far easier for people except those that are obligated to read the comments (because they're working for bikportland), to step away and not read them than it is for a person to avoid the overwhelming glare of a misused bike light.
I figure there's a number of reasons people use weblog comment forums to express nasty, mean, obnoxious and even deliberately stupid remarks, which bikeportland has in past, certainly had its share of and has not adequately taken measures to delete. Numbered amongst those reasons could be; inexperience, various types of frustration, lack of maturity, unresolved anger, laziness, and who knows what else. And of course, as many people well understand, some people just enjoy being mean to others.
The simple response to this happening is to oblige people to closely adhere to basic guidelines of civility and respect for others in their comments. Cut the slurs and excessive insults. Compel people to recognize there exists by way of the forum/comments section, an opportunity to constructively achieve understanding and potential solutions to serious problems the community needs to address.
RecommendedI'll amend that last comment just a bit:
"... which bikeportland has in past, certainly had its share of and did not adequately take measures to delete. ..."
Recommendedwhat happened to a.O.? I used to look forward to reading his hilarious comments!
RecommendedJonathan--if you're not already on Reddit, you definitely should be. The entire community is based around an effective and self moderated commenting system.
Plus it will remember and highlight new replies since you've last viewed a post.
RecommendedEven better than Reddit, Digg.
RecommendedHey Jonathan "stirring the pot" is what it's all about. If some of my comments do that, then what about many of the comments others make that clearly try to establish an us-vs-them atmosphere here? Or the comments implying that anyone in a motor vehicle is a wild eyed killer with no soul? Or everyone that is not lock step inline with them politically automatically hates bikes? Or any of the other dumb rhetoric? That stuff doesn't seem to get deleted. Double standard.
RecommendedMaybe if most drivers treated driving as operating a deadly weapon instead of waiting for their rolling living room to arrive at their destination, the attitude wouldn't be so prevalent among unprotected road users. Portland doesn't have anything close to an us-versus-them attitude, if anything, even here, it's a "we're all in this together" attitude. If you want an adversarial experience, try bicycling in California. Or a Tulsa rush hour.
RecommendedThanks for your moderation, Jonathon. You make your site a better place for the many. The few comments on here about censorship and free speech just make me laugh. Publius didn't get his paper, ink and press from King George. Anyone here who hasn't figured out how to speak their mind on the Internet, the most open publishing technology ever invented, needs to try harder. Vance proves that point colorfully with his posts here and his own blog. That's not dissing him, his posts or his blog at all, it's just an example. He makes valid points. And, simultaneously, it is entirely reasonable for Jonathon to disallow his rhetoric when it doesn't meet Jonathon's standards for Jonathon's property. Si fueris Romae, Romano vivito more...
New threaded comments v. old numbered ones...toss-up for me. Both work fine. I like the threads expanded rather than collapsed; too easy to miss new posts when they're hidden. I'm not keen on how the Reply option shows a blockquote in the composition window that isn't editable and doesn't actually show up in the post. I like the idea of a way to preview posts (see if HTML works right, etc). I wish I could mark posts "read" so it's easier to see what's new.
RecommendedJonathan, I really appreciate the work you do on this site. I love the new look of the comments and the gravatars. There are three aspects of the old system I prefer:
1. Flat (rather than nested) comment system. All new content appears below the last comment read. Makes it much easier to catch up on what's new.
2. Total comment count. Refreshing the page, I could easily tell how many new comments there were.
3. Numbered comment system. You could easily reference a previous comment just by referencing the number.
The one new feature I would love to see on BikePortland would be a favoriting system. There are times when I'd like to skim a thread and just read the highlights.
RecommendedI love the comments section, and I think it's a hugely important part of the site. And yet I was solidly in that 49%. It's not really a contradiction, and hopefully I expressed this well enough in the notes of the survey: I value the comments section so much it really bothers me to see it dragged down by snark.
At the same time, I'd prefer to see moderation kept to a minimum, and Jonathan, I think you've struck the right balance, discouraging personal insults, while also encouraging dissenting views.
Still, I would hope for more courtesy. Not through coercion, but spontaneously, as a means of making for a better conversation.
We want to encourage as much participation as possible, from as wide an audience as possible. I think the snark, as fun as it is (and I've engaged in my share of anonymous jabs), can get in the way of this. Especially when hostility gets inserted right into the first few comments. What I think happens as a result is that anyone who wants to say something positive has to assume that by doing so they're going to be butting heads with those first few motivated, hostile commenters. I think it can suck the oxygen out of a conversation.
I don't know a good way around this. It's not like a negative attitude reaches the threshold of moderation. It's as tricky a problem as trying to encourage courteous behavior on the road - another space plagued by anonymity, and anger.
That's why BlueOregon has swtiched to confirmed-identity (via Facebook) comments. But I'm not comfortable with that kind of solution here. There are plenty of good reasons to allow for anonymity, among them: encouraging shy new posters to post, and encouraging insiders to share information.
For better or worse, anonymity frees up the conversation.
As far as the other features, I like the look of the new comments, but I totally agree with all of Jonathan Gordon's points above about the numbered system. Case in point: I'd like to reference the number of his comment, but I can't.
One thing I would love to see added to the comments is a preview function. Many other message boards have these. Obviously they're useful for checking your formatting, but perhaps even more importantly - and very pertinent to the courtesy issue - they let you take a breath and see how your comment will look to others. I've found this gets me to tone down some of my more hostile comments. It's similar to the technique of putting aside an angry email for an hour before sending it; a bit of cool-down can get you to rethink what you're about to say.
Keep up the great work, and thanks for putting so much thought into this.
RecommendedThe constant scolling up and down is getting to be a drag
RecommendedI've spent a day or so with the new comments and found I don't much like them. They reduce the value of BikePortland for me.
The comments serve me in a couple of ways. Reading them gives me a greater understanding of the huge diversity in lifestyles involving bicycles, and often opens my eyes to issues and conflicts I otherwise would never be aware of. Also sometimes I follow a specific comment thread because something about it has got my interest. Such as I think that I am learning something from the comment writers, or I am enjoying the word play, or I am deeply puzzled by the thoughts of this alien creature who has learned to write English and ride a bike :-)
But my approach depends on being able to rapidly find the comments that I have not read yet. While BikePortland has become important to me, I don't have a lot of time to devote to it. The current system does not serve me well because I can't take the time to sort through all the comments I have already read to find the new ones.
Please provide a method for listing comments chronologically. Ideally with threaded comments as an alternative; I would use that from time to time.
I suspect that my reading habits are typical for a large segment of readers. I read between 25% and 50% of the new articles each morning, and I read all the comments at the time I read an article. I write comments to maybe 5% of the articles I have read. I follow some portion of the comments of around 20% of the articles I have read (meaning I come back to those articles several times over a 2 or 3 day period to see what has been added). I know that I am now skipping over a lot of the comments I would like to be reading because I can't justify the time it would take to review them all yet again.
RecommendedI think most of Portland is like this and it drives my Boston-bred sole nuts.
Recommendedweighing in:
RecommendedI like the reply feature...but also liked the numbers..as long as people references a name with the number when replying in case posts were deleted or added in (waiting for authorization)..when people would reply to number only it wouldn't always match up.
I too would like to see a +- rating, I know some websites will dim or hide particularly low scored posts, you then have to click on them to read. Interesting form of crowdsourcing.
I always read the comments but I am one who said it was one of my least favorite parts of the site (it's both really a fave and not), I am comfortable with comment forums myself, having been on debate forums and the like. But I am also aware of how outside readers would see the 'bike community" and it's not pretty. People come to BP for bike news and I think we shoot ourselves in the foot sometimes with whiny entitled elitist posts in the comments. And I know that this is a place to vent, but aren't the bike Portland forums a better place for that? I like the constrictive conversations and educational ones that happen here, but not the self serving whining, calling people cagers, us vs them, cyclist vs cyclist kind of stuff. Hard to avoid but still off putting.
Only way I can think other places try to curb that is all comments have to be approved before they are posted which is an awful lot of work and slows down the flow of conversation.
Jonathan, I like the informative stories and appreciate all of your hard work. The comment section is fun too. Sometimes I get bored with the same one sided cookie cutter comments and I have been guilty of trying to stir up the pot a little bit. I apologize to you or anybody that I have unintentually offended.
Recommendedre: editing comments - one method i have seen to help qualify the comments is to allow other commenters to like or dislike comments. i have not looked at wordpress in a while, but its certainly possible to allow other people to give a thumbs up or a thumbs down to a particular comment. if, say a comment has more than 6 dislikes, it can just be hidden. this way, there is a record of all comments and the likelihood of a discussion getting derailed is mitigated.
there is no good reason to arbitrarily censure comments, let your readers do it - though you are doing a good job in raising the level of debate. on the bright side, I have not had a comment edited in years, so I have that going for me, which is nice.
RecommendedIf that was the case I might get edited out before my post even gets read
Recommended"...there is no good reason to arbitrarily censure comments, let your readers do it ..." adam
That can turn into mob rule rejecting comments that are carefully, thoughtfully crafted, just because 'x' number of certain readers don't like them for reasons no more significant than their own minor, self absorbed preference.
The quality a comments section takes on, largely has to do with guidelines the site supervisors adequately convey to the readers, but also, from what people writing and posting comments to such sections convey to others commenting to the section. If readers want to read well thought out comments rather than obnoxious, juvenile drivel, they should regularly say so by countering them with something better thought out and more informative.
RecommendedYou might want to check out Digg.com for a good example of how that kind of system works: All it does is provide a method for users to make decisions about the comments they want to see. None are actually removed, but the key points of the thread float to the top.
RecommendedBikePortland's comment quality is the highest I've seen at any local-news site that has anything close to this much traffic. It's really impressive, a credit to Jonathan, to bikers and to PDX, I think.
I like the gravatars on the new system -- I think our photos encourage civility and liven up the page. It might be nice to have a FAQ entry about how to upload your photo to a gravatar service.
Numbered comments aren't very important to me, because I almost never aspire to read every comment. The only time I read them at all is when I have a mission: for example, when I have a specific question that's unanswered by the post. (Or when it's a post of my own, of course.)
I feel strongly that people who don't want to read comments don't have to. I find it hard to believe that someone would truly stop visiting a site because of low-quality or aggravating comments ... unless the comments were once their main reason for visiting. Which, to my mind, is what forums are for.
Hurrah for open comments!
RecommendedI vote NO for the new format. The nesting is nice, in seeing responses to a specifc comment, but commenters did a good job before of using "@ #44 dodohead - hey, dodohead,..." to reference their replies.
The photos would be cool if more people used them.
The nesting makes it impossible to see the addition of new comments in sequence, so when I check back on a comment thread I can't tell what comments were recently added, whereas when they are added to the bottom sequentially, catching up on a thread is easy. To me, that's a really important feature of the comments section.
RecommendedUPDATE: actually I'm learning to hate this new format. I really miss being able to see check back on thread updates by conveniently viewing comments in chronological order. Alot.
Recommendedcraig,
sorry you disllike this format so much. A lot of people like it. I'm still open to switching back to the old format, but I haven't decided yet. Also, keep in mind this is just an interim measure until the site gets a full redesign this spring.
RecommendedYou can always subscribe to the thread, then you'll get chronological listings by email same as before.
RecommendedPaul, you're correct, and I do that already. However, because the of the new format, posters don't make explicit reference to the prior comment to which they're responding (as they used to), meaning that I have to go back into the web comments to see the context of the response. I have to bounce back and forth from email to web in order to follow the context for response comments within a single thread.
Recommended