I got flipped off by a cyclist today
Posted by Jonathan Maus (Editor) on November 13th, 2007 at 11:56 am
I had symbolic experience on my way into work today. Symbolic of a major barrier we (as people who use bicycles as our primary form of transportation) face in bringing the primarily motor-vehicle-driving public under our tent.
This barrier is some cyclist’s attitude toward traffic laws, and their response to other cyclists when that attitude is called out. Here’s what happened…
I was riding south down the hill from Mississippi Street and I had crossed one lane of N. Interstate Ave. I was on the MAX platform waiting for a chance to cross. A TriMet bus stopped and waved me through. I continued on down the road at then we both (me and the bus) stopped at a traffic light at the intersection of N. Albina and Interstate.
As we waited at the red light — swoosh — a cyclist blew by me. It was as if the signal didn’t even exist.
I yelled, “The light’s red buddy!”, and then watched as he whipped around and gave me the one-fingered salute.
Nice. Way to stay classy. I can only imagine what the bus driver, all his passengers, and the other folks stopped at that intersection thought.
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November 13th, 2007 11:59
Sorry Jonathan - but sadly I've had the same experience. No matter what community you are a part of, there will always be at least one jerk in the bunch.
November 13th, 2007 12:02
Bad karma for all of us, and it makes it more dangerous for all of us. Its worth the comment though Jonathan. Thanks.
November 13th, 2007 12:08
Why do we take it upon ourselves to call out cyclists who are disobeying traffic signals but no pedestrians downtown would ever think to call out other pedestrians who cross against the light?
November 13th, 2007 12:11
Morons on bikes, morons in cars...same difference. And right, I think the people on the bus, in the cars and stopped at the intersection are probably inclined to think something like the following:
'To hell with these people. They want greater consideration for themselves, but they don't want to extend it to anyone else! Streets are for cars and trucks. Bikes are just play toys! Get them off of the streets!'.
Every time a cyclist blows a traffic regulation where everyone can see them, they're also blowing a positive public relations opportunity for biking as viable transportation. It's a classic case of shooting one's self in the foot.
November 13th, 2007 12:13
There is currently a bike messenger looking rider (don't know if he really is -- I look like a messenger and am not, just searching for a common frame of reference for the description) who rides Interstate and around NoPo who completely ignores all traffic control. He is on a blue fixed gear with distinctive wheels (white, large star spoked I think).
He blew by me waiting at a red light at Going and Interstate the other day (not an intersection to be trifled with), and then I watched him blow through Skidmore and a red light, forcing a cyclist moving West on Skidmore to slow abruptly while moving across the Max tracks (a tricky maneuver.
Quite ridiculous, really.
November 13th, 2007 12:13
This type of behavior is so common place that I have given up defending cyclists to friends, co-workers and even my wife.
People on this site complain all the time about police stings but I wish they would ticket more cyclists. The backlash form motorists just keeps getting worse towards us so when recent tragic accidents happen we get no sympathy from the public to make any changes that would benefit us. Unless we start to really police ourselves we will never get
the kind of support we need to improve things.
November 13th, 2007 12:13
Why should they? Last I heard, pedestrians were not clamoring for equal rights on the roadways or staging protests claiming police bias. If we as a community expect drivers to obey the law for our safety then we had better get our house in order first. Public perception is 90% in this battle.
November 13th, 2007 12:14
David Dean,
It's probably due to our sense of discretion and wanting to avoid physical danger. When you and the flagrant lawbreaker are both on bikes, it seems highly unlikely (to me, anyway), that the lawbreaker will slam on the brakes, do a quick U-turn, and come back to confront you.
When you're both on foot, however, what's to prevent the lawbreaker from turning around and coming back to confront you? Perhaps try to pick a fight with you?
November 13th, 2007 12:19
The great challenge we face in our effort to improve conditions on the road is one of public perception. It's the one guy on the road that day who feels the need to express his opinion with the one-fingered-salute who ruins it for us all; himself included.
The downward spiral will not be reversed untill this attitude is curbed - figuratively and literally.
November 13th, 2007 12:21
Jonathan, you've just described my daily interactions with a number of cyclists riding up and down Ankeny or across Burnside and 20th.
How can we proclaim "We ARE Traffic" if these bad apples keep showing non-cyclist that WE see ourselves above Traffic Laws?
November 13th, 2007 12:23
Must be a slow news day.... Wahhh someone ran a red light... Wahhh. ;)
November 13th, 2007 12:24
I'm not going to say I've never done anything illegal and I can tell you that calling me out wouldn't make me think twice. Something a little more witty or crass might get my attention. Usually I'm fully aware of my decision and the last thing I want is someone telling me I'm a bad person. Most of us do not like to be told what to do.
However, I do thoroughly appreciate motorists telling me "I can't see you" (
or "Get a light!" when my lights are (ashamedly) low on batteries. That's something we often don't notice ourselves and need to pay more attention to. It helps to have it pointed out by the people (motorists) who are most relying on us to have bright lights.
All that being said, could the message of safety be made cool/fun/entertaining? I challenge all of you creative types to give it a shot in 8 minutes of fewer for Filmed by Bike. You have until March 1, 2008. Details on our site.
November 13th, 2007 12:28
This is just sad and all to common.
November 13th, 2007 12:30
On an even more disturbing note, I just ran across this post on craistlist
http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/bik/477634527.html
"
On my way in this morning, and while stopped at the stop sign of SE Clay St. @ SE 11th, the young dark haired goateed driver of a AGG Enterprises truck going south on SE 11th thought it would be funny to heckle my friend and I as he drove by. Know what that means, he wasn't watching the traffic in front of him or around him. It was harmless yet annoying to us, and brazen since a co-worker/driver of his killed another cyclist. Why do they have a license to drive when they behave like that, especially in light of the recent incidences?
"
November 13th, 2007 12:31
if we (cyclists) want to be taken seriously as part of the traffic, then we have to conform to all the rules regulating traffic. Only when other traffic can reasonably predict the behaviors of cyclists according to what they are accustomed to (traffic laws) will we be taken seriously. (there will always be lawbreakers, intentional or otherwise, in all forms of transportations)
I live in the SF bay area but read this blog regularly because I was impressed by portland's bike culture after a visit in the summer (after doing the 1-day STP). We are dealing with similar sets of issues down here in the Bay Area. Portland is definitely more advanced (even though the Bay Area is not lagging that far behind) in bike planning.
cheers,
November 13th, 2007 12:32
"I can only imagine what the bus driver, all his passengers, and the other folks stopped at that intersection thought."
Since you were stopped next to the bus, I hope they heard you yell at the cyclist and thought, "gee, I guess there really are law abiding cyclists that don't appreciate other cyclists breaking the law"
Bad PR from the bird flipper, but good PR from Jonathan.
November 13th, 2007 12:33
Hopefully they thought some cyclists obey the law - and some don't.
November 13th, 2007 12:35
It's sad, but I think some of it has to do with cyclists wanting to emulate the suppossed machismo of bike messenger set.
Bike messengers are are viewed by the more impressionable members of our community as being effortlessly cool, lithe, strong, hipster-type glittering beings on bikes.
As a result, stopping at a stop sign is seen as equated with being a sissy on a bike.
It's a shame, because really it shouldn't be.
November 13th, 2007 12:36
it is impossible to make everyone follow the rules - whether in a car or on a bicycle. why is that so hard to understand?
the biggest difference is that, as a whole, bikes cause less destruction.
November 13th, 2007 12:37
David Dean @ #2:
For me, I know that the rare occasions where I'll call someone out; it is due to either the potential danger of the illegal maneuver (to the rider or others), or the flagrant nature of that maneuver.
Pedestrians aren't in any real danger of losing their rights to use sidewalks and crosswalks, are they? I am a runner as well as a cyclist and see a real and different attitude from motorists toward me when I run versus when I ride. Pedestrians are accepted and excused on many occasions - perhaps because of their vulnerability and probably their greater level of politeness as a whole.
Cyclists however have bad PR cases rolling around all the time. When was the last time you saw a pedestrian flagrantly disobey a traffic signal and then flip the bird to the motorists around them? Yeah, I don't remember either...
November 13th, 2007 12:38
If only there was some sort of 'bonehead database' to keep track of all the stupid people so we can more effectively avoid them and/or try to curb their ways.
Here would be my most recent entries:
1) Riding up Interstate after dark, helmets on, lights blazing, passed by Brett's ghost bike AND a news van on our side of the street with a reporter doing an on scene report about the crash. Halfway up the hill, I think about passing Jess, who's riding in front of me but it's a good thing I don't because I would slammed into exhibit A; A woman riding down Interstate on the wrong side of the street in the bike lane. I would've slammed right into her. She had a helmet but no lights. I become aware of her when I hear Jess yelling "Really bad idea!" as she passes us by going around and into the oncoming traffic lane. I echo Jess's sentiment aloud to which the woman replies, "Duh!" My question is, if she had brains enough to know how stupid she was being, why not turn around and go the 25 ft back to the crosswalk and get on the right side of the street!!!?? I also lamented that her boneheaded move was probably going to be captured on the news as she rode by the reporter. Oh the irony.
2) Heading north on Willamette Blvd in the neighborhood section just before it meets Rosa Parks way at the crosswalk. I feel/hear a whoosh as a helmet-less male roadie brushes by me without so much as an "On your left." We catch enough at the cross walk to witness him turn left into the bike lane going the wrong way and then haphazardly veer right all the way across the road to the correct bike lane just after the turn, in front of a driver making a perfectly legitamite right turn who had to slam on his brakes. He did all this without a single turn of his head to look and while wearing headphones.
We looked on in stunned disbelief and
managed to yell, "YOU'RE STUPID!!!" but of course he was too far away and too plugged into hear us. We were kind of disappointed that the driver didn't even honk at him since he certainly had earned at last that.
Every time I think I've plumbed the depths of human stupidity, I'm proven wrong. With friends like these, who needs garbage trucks and biased police?
November 13th, 2007 12:38
This is so very common. I run into it at least once a week. I've stopped saying things, as I'm sick of getting "f**k you" back or the finger. They obviously do not care. Or maybe they do and pride makes them flip you off to pretend they don't care.
Some people just like the fact that they define themselves as anarchists. They are the ones that give the rest of cyclists a bad name.
November 13th, 2007 12:41
Ron: I don't know how many times I have been trackstanding at a red light on my "brakeless" fixed gear death machine and I have had a multiple-speed "commuter" fly past me, ignoring the traffic device.
The characterization that the only traffic scofflaws on bike are messengers or hipsters trying to look like messengers is bunk. That video from Ladd's Addition is proof: lots of "normal" people on "normal" bike blowing a STOP sign, not an Aerospoke in the bunch. Just the like the traffic scofflaws in cars, they come from all walks of life.
The ones that bother me the most are the ones going the wrong way, especially in a bike lane.
November 13th, 2007 12:43
So...after the person turned back from giving you the bird, wouldn't it have been funny if he ran smack-dab into the back of a parked car. Not seriously injured or anything, just a few broken bones and lost chicklets. What a loser!
November 13th, 2007 12:45
Skidmark -- to be clear, I was talking about a single individual -- I described him as such in case anyone else in my area had perhaps seen him as well -- I used no other language intended to smear a particular group of riders.
Once one learns to track stand at a stop, it's a helluva lot more fun than riding through it anyway.
Cheers
November 13th, 2007 12:48
Curt Dewees,
I totally agree there is that aspect. But also, pedestrians crossing against the light doesn't bother me at all. Does it bother you?
November 13th, 2007 12:48
Sadly in my experience cyclists and car drivers have about the same proportion of a**holes. Though it's not really that surprising. Getting on a bike doesn't magically make you a better or nicer person.
I commute (by foot) down that same portion of Mississippi and Interstate, and bikes are just as likely to ignore or disregard my right of way as cars.
Of course cars have the potential to do far more damage, but the tendency is there regardless of how righteous your transport mode (except for transit passengers: they all rock!).
November 13th, 2007 12:57
Isn't the treatment you receive on your bicycle like 100 times
worse from the car operators out there ?
Isn't all the following....
engine-reving,
too-close-following,
honking,
crazy passing in the wrong lane at illegal speeds
near-accidents due to careless, rude and self-centered driving
....way way worse than a hand gesture, and 100-fold more prevalent ?
The priorities here seem wrong. Best, --DanS--
November 13th, 2007 12:57
David Dean,
There are two things at work here. The egregious nature of the offense (blowing through a light without checking out the intersection) and the fact that, like it or not, we cyclists are viewed as a "group" more than peds are. You know that.
If Jonathan were talking about getting flipped off after he yelled at a cyclist for rolling a stop sign at a quiet residential intersection, I would frankly be inclined to side with the flipper, although I might argue that a "mind your own business" might be a better response.
But that's not what we're talking about.
Apples are not oranges here. There are degrees of behavior and after the last month and a half that we've endured, it would help if riders could display a modicum of diplomacy, and perhaps, dare I say, some common freakin' sense.
A lot of cars at an intersection? Perhaps not the time to run the light. Cars lined up and taking turns at a stop sign? Maybe not the best time to pass all the cars on the left and blow through. 11pm, no cars and the light won't change? Go ahead, roll the light.
Is it that difficult for people to understand that there is some THINKING that needs to be applied here?
I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to call out stupid behavior. This is not to say that we should all get in each other's business, but stupid behavior is stupid behavior and we all pay the price. Get with the program.
November 13th, 2007 12:58
Gosh Jonathon if I had known it was you I wouldn't have flipped you off. ;)
Of course I am joking, but seriously, how would a smoker react if you walked up to him on the street and pointed out the dangers of smoking? Perhaps the next time you see an obese person, they would thank you for pointing out the increased risk of heart disease, stroke and diabetes that they enjoy. Wanna talk about Jesus?
When someone yells, the natural reaction is to yell back. It is how we are wired. Effective dialog only happens with an invitation.
November 13th, 2007 13:01
It's a witch, burn the witch!
And what do we burn besides witches?
MORE WITCHES!
November 13th, 2007 13:08
While I agree that it's bad PR for us to be breaking traffic laws ourself, I'm kinda reluctant to flip out over it. A lot of drivers seem to have this attitude that they don't have to obey the law or accommodate cyclists, because they once saw a cyclist run a red light. I mean, that's probably the most common response anytime a cyclist expresses concern about safety, or the failure of motorists to abide by traffic laws that protect him or her. But it's bullshit. And I'm kinda hesitant to indulge drivers in it. Yeah, we should all obey the law, but we should also be challenging the brain-dead notion that our safety on the road must be contingent on the good behavior of every other cyclist.
November 13th, 2007 13:09
Unpleasant experience... but in the end no one should identify to closely with a mode of transportation.
He was an ass, and his ass was on a bike, that's all...
When I was harassed by thugs on the MAX I didn't think I'd been harassed by MAX passengers... I was harassed by teenage thugs riding on MAX.... etc., mutatis mutandis.
November 13th, 2007 13:14
SkidMark's #17 comment sums it up. It made me laugh. Well put!
November 13th, 2007 13:16
That is totally LAME. My friend and were riding Eastbound across the Hawthorne bridge, and a cyclist was flying TOWARDS us in the pedestrian lane. We commented as she passed by, 'Hey the Westbound crossing is on the North side of the bridge!' to which she snarled, 'WHO CARES!' Totally rude. She probably would have flipped us off too if she could have controlled her bike enough swerving around bikes and ped traffic.
November 13th, 2007 13:24
You know, I used to ALWAYS do the rolling stop (emphasis on 'rolling') at that intersection, considering it's a 'T' and all the cars turn left onto Interstate. Pretty safe to roll through with proper precautions. Probably what birdman thought.
Well, one day a car in front of me actually goes straight across Interstate into the warehouse parking lot (because they had a green light) as I'm getting ready to roll through.
So, I don't do the rolling stop anymore. Apparently, the light is there for a reason and for people like myself who've convinced themselves that they take all the 'proper precautions' in every situation before rolling through the red.
But I never flipped anyone off...
November 13th, 2007 13:24
Lose the light. Use a circle. Problem SOLVED.
Get the feeling roadway design ENCOURAGES criminal speeding by motorists who insist on catching the red light?
November 13th, 2007 13:31
I was on bus #6 MLK on the way home the other day when we approached the stop on the Hawthorne Bridge's east side... a cyclists was in the land and a passenger yelled... "run him over!"
Good times!
November 13th, 2007 13:31
There are enough of us out there riding safely and legally to minimize the free PR we're getting from the red light blazing sketch riders.
It would be interesting to interview a random sampling of drivers and cyclists to get a real idea of perception stats.
November 13th, 2007 13:31
Cyclidiots who blow through red lights and make other crazy moves are a threat to me and other cyclists... because they piss off drivers, who then see all cyclists as nuisances that should be swept off the road. That selfish rider and others like him hurt all of us on the road... and erode our standing at City Hall and in the Legislature.
November 13th, 2007 13:32
tonyt,
Based on the information presented, I don't get the impression that the saluting cyclist ganked anyone else's right of way. Knowing that the cyclist had an interest in self preservation leads me to conclude that he probably was paying attention as he blew the red light after determining that it was safe enough to proceed.
So the issue then really is about the law and whether or not it is OK for a cyclist to disregard it and whether or not we should admonish people who do. In that, I think there is a direct and relevant comparison to pedestrian traffic.
November 13th, 2007 13:32
Due to my hatred of vigilantes of any degree, I probably would have flipped you off as well.
The guy knew the light was red, and he showed you the proper appreciation for pointing out the obvious.
November 13th, 2007 13:33
Matt #32, well said!
November 13th, 2007 13:33
Statistics can be manipulated to serve whatever agenda is needed.
November 13th, 2007 13:40
I just went to lunch and yelled at a guy who I saw walk on a red light. I feel better now!
November 13th, 2007 13:49
I'm at work so don't have time to read all the posts right now - but maybe the point is that we as bikers should be leading by example and stop being hypocrites. How can we, as bikers, be outraged when car drivers don't obey the laws, if we aren't either? Just a thought.
It's frustrating to be defending bikers who don't obey traffic laws, putting themselves and others at risk.
I would think/hope that after all the media attention and the recent tragedies that WE would ALL be a bit more careful. All, meaning bikers AND drivers.
November 13th, 2007 13:52
Andrew #40,
I am not sure that cyclidiots are a danger to others cyclists in way you describe. In fact, I see them as traffic calming elements. I know when ever I am driving and I see one, I slow down. I always makes sure that cyclists are really going to stop, and that we agree on who has the right-of-way.
I do not advocate anyone ride like an idiot. I am just saying when I see Joe Dumbass riding the wrong way down the bike lane I drive as though he is a loose dog, or a small child.
November 13th, 2007 14:04
David,
If Jonathan was stopped next to a bus, then that bus would obstruct the cyclist's view for the 40 feet he was riding alongside it. If he blew by Jonathan as he wrote, knowing that intersection as I do, I would argue that unless this guy was omnicient, he was flirting with disaster.
Re your ped comparison; in any conversations I've ever had, as a ped and a driver and a cyclist, I have only ever been lumped in with other cyclists. Peds and cars are seen as "the masses" and as such individuals are less likely to be representative of anyone in particular. Sadly such is not the case for cyclists.
It would be great if the flipper's behavior existed in a vacuum, but alas it does not. It has a disproportionate effect on how we, as cyclists are perceived and treated. THAT is why I think cyclists tend to be more bothered with the behavior of other cyclists than peds are with the actions of other pedestrians.
November 13th, 2007 14:05
This is the unfortunate part. We -bicyclists - want motor vehicle drivers "respecting" us. That will only happen when we obey the rules too. We - motorists - see all to many bicycles ignoring the rules to have much sympathy. I've seen a lot of letters saying that police need to ticket bicyclists. Much as I would hate to see that, perhaps that is what it will take unless we can police ourselves.
November 13th, 2007 14:07
In reference to Stripes comments: (and only to his comments, for I have more to say on the issues of the article, but that would make my post horribly long, so I digress)
While there is no way to deny emulation of messengers, to use that as an argument in any way in reference to this post is quite out of line.
Your comment points to "supposed" machismo of the messenger.
What do you think it takes to make it alive through a day, 8-10 hours, of constantly dealing with the exact issues that have the whole cycling community in a rage?
It takes machismo, or something along the same lines, to stay alive enough, alert enough, and brave enough.
This is what tends to separate them from most.
This is also sadly what is so attractive to some, hence the emulation.
Take the problems you encounter on your commute, on the way to Zoobomb, or even on the way to your local coffee shop, and multiply them by a couple hundred.
Then add the possibilities of having your boss yell at you that the package in your bag must be from the NW to the south side of town in 15 minutes, but it is late so you have about 5 left. This is in reality the amount of time it takes to simply go into the building, let alone get there.
We are now past machismo, fully into self preservation, and protection of your paycheck, for there is a long line of kids willing to do the same job for next to nothing, starting tomorrow.
That is your average messenger day.
November 13th, 2007 14:15
The law-breakers are always a lot more visible than the law-abiders. For every one of the former that is remembered, 50 of the latter go by unnoticed.
November 13th, 2007 14:18
That light you were stopped at is so pointless. It doesn't excuse the behavior, and he was breaking the law, but the cyclist was in no danger whatsoever. The only people that are ever going to cross the bike line are people going into the Community Warehouse, which really is only an issue on Saturday afternoons. People turn from Albina onto Interstate, and it's usually only one car, and the light just takes forever. There has to be a better solution so as to not slow down bike traffic.
November 13th, 2007 14:25
That's funny, and it reminds me of this new proposal for a "Share The Road" sign:
http://tinyurl.com/2br8y8
Yeah, people blow lights and flip you off. Sometimes, they're even on bicycles.
At least everybody lived through that particular encounter.
November 13th, 2007 14:33
No offense, but I run red lights all the time. I don't do it unsafely, or carelessly, or discourteously, and I feel no guilt or shame in it.
While I would probably have just ignored you if you yelled "the light's red, buddy", I did once have a bicyclist chase after me for a block in order to deliver a stern lecture. This was because I ran the light at the bottom of Broadway in order to preserve my momentum going up the bridge. I had a clear view of the intersection; no cars were approaching. I rolled through at full speed, and was not killed.
I believe my response to her tirade was "blow me". Which was less courteous than I should have been, but frankly I was offended by the tone she took.
I believe there are big problems with our road rules. They are designed largely for the convenience of cars, at the expense of all other road users. If we could get those laws changed to something more respectable, then I would have more respect for the law. And I really want to do that. And one of the first reforms I would push for is and Idaho-style loosening of the constant requirement for bicyclists to come to a full stop at empty intersections, thereby throwing away their hard-earned momentum.
I have a right to take what risks I choose. There is some risk involved in any bicycling, and somebody might think that the way I bicycle is too risky for them, but I'm not making anybody else run red lights. I didn't see what you saw so I have no idea if that is something I would do, but that rider took his own risks. If he gets hit, nobody loses more than he does. If he's stupid, he'll get killed eventually.
As far as the need to show good behaviour to car drivers in order to improve the public's opinion of bicyclists in general: I reject this argument outright. I will not be judged by anyone else's behaviour, and I won't have anyone else judged by mine. If drivers see all bicyclists as the same bicyclist, that's their mistake, and that's the problem that should be solved. Me throwing away my momentum at every red light is not going to solve that problem.
Despite the police and media tilt that all bicycle accidents are the fault of bicyclists' disrespect for the law, it's clear that there is a way to ride in cities in which safety comes from personal vigilance, not white stripes on the ground and blinking lights on poles. In fact, disobeying road rules is sometimes the only safe way to ride.
To me, a stop sign means "be careful" and a red light means "be *really* careful". That's all.
November 13th, 2007 14:37
I believe there are big problems with our road rules. They are designed largely for the convenience of cars, at the expense of all other road users.
Your belief is wrong, which doesn't bode well for any analysis based on that wrong belief.
November 13th, 2007 14:37
trackstands are for posers off the track.
November 13th, 2007 14:39
I have a right to take what risks I choose.
No, you don't have any such right.
Any other legal theories you want to get wrong for us?
November 13th, 2007 14:39
As the city grows, I don't expect it will become more polite.
MYOB.
November 13th, 2007 14:43
I'd like to re-post from Portland Transport, since it seems applicable here (thanks for putting it so well, Lenny):
Sorry you got flipped off, Jonathan, but let's put it in perspective: Running red lights is a reaction to many things, and many times, it's just as safe as not running the red light. Remember, 230 years ago, it was illegal to declare the intention to not pay your taxes to a British monarch. Laws are made by the people, and if the best thing to do is to break those laws, maybe they need to be changed to reflect the new reality.
Let's go Idaho-style!
November 13th, 2007 14:43
mykle, 51: If you hit a pedestrian or another cyclist while you are running a red light or stop sign to save your "momentum" (aka your own personal time and effort), how is that different from a car doing the same thing and hitting you?
If I assert that I can safely do what you do while I am driving my car, and have decided that the law therefore doesn't apply to me, is that OK with you?
November 13th, 2007 14:44
"That light you were stopped at is so pointless....There has to be a better solution so as to not slow down bike traffic."
rob,
I agree to some extent.. .but I feel the issue here is PR as much as whether or not the light should be there. Bottom line for me is when a cyclist blows a red light during morning rush hour when other people are waiting (and watching) it is a very bad decision. I don't like stopping at that intersection either, but I do, especially when there are people around.
November 13th, 2007 14:50
So, the thing is that people are too uptight. If the cyclist is only endangering themselves, and I have yet to hear of a case of a driver getting killed in a car/bicycle collision, then what is the big deal? I think people should stop policing each other so much. We ARE on the same side of this battle and every person is different. Some may wait for the light to turn green and some may not. As long as we all enjoy the ride then we're fine.
November 13th, 2007 14:51
Trackstands are for those that are too lazy to take a foot out of a toeclip/strap and put it on the ground.
Is it still posing if nobody is watching?
November 13th, 2007 14:51
Let's go Idaho-style!
Spoken by somebody who appears to have no understanding whatsoever of "Idaho-style."
November 13th, 2007 14:51
I have to admit that I do the "idaho" stop all the time, where I come up to an intersection and slow way down as to see if any one is coming, and proceede. This also gives me a jump on any cars, to get out in front and visible.
As to Ron and Skimarks little love fest, Ron, I have seen the guy you'r talking about and he is what you say. I also saw him pulling his kid home on a trailer, blow through a intersection and cut a car off tring to turn. It sure doesn't engender mutal respect, when you see a guy who risks his kid like that.
I would vote for a "Dork" page to go along with close calls and stolen rides to help self control our own community.
November 13th, 2007 14:54
Not to mention, if we (cyclists) start declaring that WE can judge when it's safe to go through a red light at full speed, what's to stop a car from doing the same thing? I suspect mykle wouldn't actually object to this.
I however do. Until we can change some of the laws that don't necessarily make sense, or that actually make riding a bike somewhat more dangerous, I think we are clearly subject to them just as cars should be.
All the more reason I feel so strongly about the lack of prosecution of any kind in the deaths of Tracey and Brett (and so many others, as the stories begin to surface).
Saying you ran a red light to preserve your momentum is to me no different than saying "I didn't see the bike I just ran over" -- and that is that you couldn't be bothered to delay your trip by 20 or 30 seconds in order to observe a common, and commonly followed, rule of the road.
Pathetic.
November 13th, 2007 15:06
Hey SkidMark #62 -
To answer your question: Yes. Especially if there is a reflective surface nearby.
And a propos to this whole entertaining thread: What about the questionable legality of the "glacial creep" trackstand that bsnyc has so eloquently expounded upon?
Posing and red light running (or creeping I guess) at the same time!
November 13th, 2007 15:12
Our city's focus has to be on behavior that maims, threatens, kills or does harm to others, not on that which only puts the doer at risk. Running a light on a bike is bad PR, sure, but this is a life and death matter for bicyclists vs an nuisance for those in motor vehicles...no comparison.
That light, by the way, is at a "T" where it might be safer run it...maybe safer than waiting next to a big bus.
November 13th, 2007 15:21
tonyt,
I see this as primarily a public relations issue caused by a few vocal motorists ignorantly lumping the entirely cycling community together and holding us all responsible for the actions of a very small minority. And subsequently when a cyclist is killed while riding safely and legally, the first thing we hear is excuses for the driver alongside some anecdote about a purported rude scofflaw cyclist. I think the proper course of action is to nip this ignorance in the bud, not embrace it.
I'm all for using social pressure, and even admonishment, to improve safety, but I don't see this necessarily as a safety issue. The way the story is presented, I got the impression it had more to do with how cyclists are perceived than the safety of people in the intersection. If I'm wrong, I'm willing to be corrected.
November 13th, 2007 15:21
Lenny, two things.
First, you are mistaken in saying that violating right of way only puts the "doer" at risk. It's an absolutely false argument.
Second, in case you haven't noticed, the press is playing up the bad bikers angle, and given that we are calling for fundamental institutional change in how cyclists are treated in this city, generating bad PR through intentional behavior is the same thing as working against cycling.
November 13th, 2007 15:25
I hope mykle #54 gets a nice juicy ticket soon, that would make one less person think the law is just a worthless suggestion
November 13th, 2007 15:26
pushkin (66): The creep, of course, rocks; and being on a free wheel single more closely describes most of my track standing anyway :)
As to your proposal -- it sounds great until you are the truly hapless motorist who is legally coming through an intersection only to have a dead cyclist as a hood ornament.
Sorry, but saying this behavior is only bad for the cyclist just isn't accurate. Maybe some people can live with killing a cyclist if the cyclist was clearly at fault and risk taking - not so sure I can.
I used to run through red lights on occasion. I am not guiltless by any means.
Then one day I realized that intersections are friggin disasters, and no matter how sure I was that nothing was coming the other way, eventually I'd make a mistake.
I think talking about changes to low traffic 4 way stops which allow a cyclist to preserve some of their momentum, especially where gaining it back from a full stop is actually quite dangerous, is a good conversation to have.
But I've yet to see an electronically controlled intersection where those lights weren't there for a damn good reason.
Cheers
November 13th, 2007 15:27
Whoops, sorry pushkin, I mean the second part for Lenny (67).
November 13th, 2007 15:36
Before you all get all uppity over this, you should know the intersection! I don't support the bird flipping or flying past Jonathan, but if there is not a cyclist at that intersection, I sometimes go through it too. It is a bike lane to a bike lane, not a cross st. (It is just like Naito Parkway heading north.)
Bring it on.
November 13th, 2007 15:54
On Saturday my husband was driving, with our young daughter in the car, and had to stand on the brakes to avoid creaming a young cyclist running a stop sign. Yes, it would probably have been more inconvenient to the cyclist than to him had he hit her, but to say that having his daughter see him accidentally kill or maim someone (or, say, having a heart attack himself) would be just a "nuisance" is plain wrong.
And, even if you are by some chance skilled or lucky enough not to get hit, and even if you never hit a pedestrian or another cyclist, and even if you do not care about your impact on the lives of drivers or on the public perception of cyclists or on societally shared health costs if you are injured, you might consider this: every time you ignore a red light or stop sign you may be teaching a young and inexperienced rider who sees you do it that it seems like an acceptable and safe thing to do-- and that young person may not have your skill or luck the next day.
Or maybe none of that matters as much as your momentum.
November 13th, 2007 15:57
incerdible... read the comments. you should all be ashamed of yourselves.
Maus... sorry bud, i think your readership is too diverse for comments to be effective, each thread morphs into who's right and who's wrong. doesn't matter if its car v. bike or bike v. bike, or bike v. mean ol' world.
i mean in this particular one, you've been scolded for almost every action you took. not worth it... let people hash that baggage out in the forums. lets leave page one and two for reading news.
November 13th, 2007 16:01
engine-reving,
too-close-following,
honking,
crazy passing in the wrong lane at illegal speeds
near-accidents due to careless, rude and self-centered driving
With the exception of the honking and revving I see way more of this kind of behavior from my fellow cyclists.
Sorry.
November 13th, 2007 16:01
First, you are mistaken in saying that violating right of way only puts the "doer" at risk. It's an absolutely false argument.
Exactly, rixtir. If a cyclist blows a stop sign or a red light and another cyclist who has the right of way is already crossing the intersection, it's a recipe for disaster. Think it's at worst some road rash, a couple bruises, and some components in need of replacement? Think again: there's plenty of points in for protruding parts of bike one to hook into bike two and/or either rider. Not to mention that some folks might react very aggressively if they can get up right away...a surge of adrenaline and one bad decision to finish unhinging someone's jaw with a u-lock isn't something you want to even get somebody thinking about for a split second.
And let's not forget that maneuvering out of one collision is no assurance of being out of harms way. Ever see a pile-up on the freeway? Same thing.
November 13th, 2007 16:02
id be far more bothered by the cyclist blowing past me while im stopped in the bike lane with a bus next to me than by the running of the light. the latter is illegal, the former is just plain inconsiderate - and personally, that bothers me more.
the flipping-off, yeah, thats rude and all, but i dont think anyone should be surprised by it after yelling at someone whos running a light or whatever. regardless of the legality or unsafeness of that cyclists action, while theyre in the middle of running a red light isnt exactly the safest time to try to get their attention. personally, i wouldve just ignored you. but then, i also wouldnt have run a red light coming out from alongside a bus, where i couldnt see potentially approaching pedestrians etc. im a responsible opportunist, after all, not a reckless hoodlum.
and remember, when it comes to "calling out" your fellow cyclists on red light running, helmet usage, blinky light possession, or anything else - there are generally two types of cyclists: those who take it upon themselves to give their unsolicited opinion - and those who resent them doing so.
just sayin...
November 13th, 2007 16:04
A lot of cars at an intersection? Perhaps not the time to run the light. Cars lined up and taking turns at a stop sign? Maybe not the best time to pass all the cars on the left and blow through. 11pm, no cars and the light won't change? Go ahead, roll the light.
Stupid, stupid, stupid!
November 13th, 2007 16:06
In Portland's gradually improving but still antiquated motor vehicle based street and road system, bike riders and motor vehicle drivers are commonly confused by the inherent shortcomings of this system as they try to anticipate each others intentions.
Being the newer entry into this setting, every bike rider with any sense at all should be going out of their way whenever they're riding, to indicate clearly that they're adhering to all commonly understood traffic regulations and that their use of streets and roads will be consistent with those regulations. I'm thinking that many motor vehicle drivers used to having the steets all to themselves all these years are having a very hard time learning to safely allow for the increasing presence of bikes with them on those streets.
Bike riders that insist on excusing themselves from traffic regulations and indulge in personal rebel fantasy games while riding in the streets, simply make bike/motor vehicle coexistence that much more difficult in general. Jerk cyclists may be the exception to the rule, but in the current setting, from the perspective of long term exclusively motor vehicle drivers, they are having a big impact on the perception of bikes as legitimate presence on public streets.
November 13th, 2007 16:06
Jon. Good on you for calling him out. If you don't let people know their behavior is idotic it will never change. I don't care who the offender is bike, car, pedestrian.
November 13th, 2007 16:09
peace sign is way better..
have a nice day all, still nice.
I thought about having a counter on my bars...
almost tbone
flipped off by car
flipped off by bike
rushed off the lane
honked at
yelled at
rammed
or shoved into the curb
list goes on..
Joe
November 13th, 2007 16:13
Jonathan's response seems like he feels he's been flagrantly dissed by an ally-- someone who shares the collective beehive groupthink of the "bike scene" in Portland and elsewhere.
Hopping on a bike doesn't automatically enlist you in "the bicycle community" or "bike culture" or whatever you wanna call it. People use bikes every day, yet remain totally oblivious to the the safety debates, blogs, group rides, races, all of it.
November 13th, 2007 16:16
I got flipped off last week by a cyclist near OMSI. I've taken to stopping at the stop signs over that way since the police started doing regular enforcement actions over there. As I was coming to a stop I hear the guy behind me yell and hit the brakes. He rides around me, tells tells me to "Watch it", when I say "Stop sign!" as he goes through the intersection he flips me off.
As a regular cyclist I know the it's only some bad apples, but I can definitely see why the public would have a negative perception.
November 13th, 2007 16:19
81st!
I got flipped off by a cyclist today...and I'll I got was this predictable thread!
November 13th, 2007 16:24
It's really sad that there is such a lack of civility in such a great town.
November 13th, 2007 16:37
I'm a 99.9% full-time cyclist, who takes the bus & MAX every now & then for odd trips. Lately I've been taking the Hawthorne bus to my art class once a week.
One rather memorable Tuesday, an otherwise friendly and gracious bus driver spent about the latter half of the journey talking loudly to the passengers aboard about how scary it is for her having constant near-misses with bicyclists running red lights, not having lights, not signaling, riding the wrong way et al.
Then passengers up and down the aisles of the bus started called out their own experiences of bicyclists breaking the law or behaving dangerously in front of them too whilst they were driving, walking, or using transit too.
At first, I felt somewhat mad that people could make such sweeping assumptions about any one particular mode of transportation.
But then to counter that, I thought, this bus driver most likely actually *does* see this kind of behaviour from cyclists frequently on her 8 hour shift or whatnot. I know as a passenger on the bus that morning, I saw it. I guess if I were piloting a several tonne vehicle in a confined, busy urban environment, I'd be a little scared, and mad, at people blatently running red lights & the like, endangering not only themselves, but also others around them.
Anyhow, back to the bus! I just sort of sat there, shrinking further and further back into the cushions in absolute shame. I just felt so awful being lumped into the category of inconsiderate, law-breaking cyclists by an entire busload of commuters, based on the kinds of cyclist behaviour they themselves are witnessing day in, day out.
From that packed morning commuter bus ride, it would appear cycling has a major PR problem currently that stems from the actions of a visible minority. I hope we can work as a community towards rectifying this.
(Rant over, oops!)
November 13th, 2007 16:40
ps - Forgot to mention, the bus driver also had a *lot* to say about encountering cars making illegal or unsafe moves in traffic on a daily basis also. So no anti-cycling bias per se on her part!
November 13th, 2007 16:42
Maybe it was the day for nasty commuters to be out in force. I got caught up in a line of cars driving along SE Stark (between 52nd and 45th there are no other options) and at the point where I had to take the lane to make a left turn (clearly signalling first, moving quickly, and leaving plenty of room for passing on my right), some lovely example of womanhood yelled "Get a car, bitch!" and peeled rubber around me. I'd like to say that kinda stuff doesn't bother me, but it actually really sucks to have obscenities screamed at you first thing in the morning, not to mention the one-ton vehicle skidding on wet leaves about five feet from where I'm waiting to turn. And the skidding was the driver's emphasis for her disapproval of me being on the road -- she in no way had to skid to avoid me.
For every cyclist who
flips someone off, I encounter about 89 motorists doing things that are illegal, rude, dangerous, or all of the above. Which is probably perfectly proportionate to the population of cyclists/drivers. I think it's just people, and lots of 'em suck.
November 13th, 2007 17:07
Yes -- if indeed Oregon could change its laws to reflect those in Idaho, where a bicyclist must stop at a red light before proceeding if safe to do so, this bicyclist would still be breaking the law, because, according to Jonathan's account, he didn't even stop before blowing the light.
Point taken.
However, I still would defend bicyclists who choose to safely blow lights. We need to change the law to treat bicyclists as a separate class of road users, such that autos yield to bikes yield to pedestrians; and enable bikes to slow for stop signs and stop-then-proceed on red lights.
If this law change were to happen, and clarify that it is legal to run a red light after stopping, we might see more bicyclists actually stop at red lights -- before proceeding.
Right now, it's kind of wide open out there. The law doesn't have any relation to reality, so what's the difference between slowing for a red, stopping for a red, or just blowing the red at speed and giving the bird to anybody standing around, if all three actions are treated equally under the law?
November 13th, 2007 17:22
I suspect that cyclists attitudes will change when a cyclist who's obeying the law is killed by a motorist who loses control of her car trying to avoid hitting a cyclist who isn't.
November 13th, 2007 17:29
I am A courier, so I have an interesting Seat-in-the- mad house perspective. I witnessed 6 blown light by cars. 8 near right hooks, countless jay walkers and four middle fingers from near collisions with guys in Beemers. so my take after getting home safely today is: There is a hell of alot more cars on the fucking road than bikes. who gives a shit if a bike flipped you off he only endangered himself and mabey your Egos.
Public Relations Campaign??!! Give me a ****** break.
November 13th, 2007 17:30
Phil, that's actually pretty funny. Excepting the death and stuff of course.
November 13th, 2007 17:45
"However, I still would defend bicyclists who choose to safely blow lights. We need to change the law to treat bicyclists as a separate class of road users, such that autos yield to bikes yield to pedestrians; and enable bikes to slow for stop signs and stop-then-proceed on red lights."
stopping-then-proceeding is not blowing...
and your utopian idea does ont account for bikes colliding with eachother either...
in other words, it's totally flawed.
November 13th, 2007 17:55
In regards to the bus riding, I must say that those drivers who spend 8 hours a shift driving buses, tend to be the largest violators of cycling right of way... (comment #88)
How many times a day do you see them:
Pulling way early into the bike lanes, cutting off bikes, in order to stop and pick up passengers.
Speeding up to pass a cyclist, then pull in front of them cutting them off, and using their misguided, "always right of way" status to endanger others.
Pulling out from a bus stop, after the light has been full yellow, into the intersection, fast. (while the said light their direction is now red)
Pulling out in front of others, simply because another bus driver has waited for them to go, even though they are still cutting off other traffic.
Speeding up and flying through yellows, and reds, in order to stay on schedule.
Parking one, two, or three buses in the bike lane, especially on the west end of the Burnside bridge, where I have had to jump off the curb, as they were blocking the bike path, and the ramp off the sidewalk.
Seeing you in the rear view mirror, then still pulling over into you, pushing a cyclist out of their lane, and yelling at the cyclist for not yielding, even though the cyclist was there fully first.
I could go on and on, but my point is they are no saints.....far, far from it.
I wish I would have been on that bus, during that conversation...
Screw Tri Met and the great white horse they rode in on!
November 13th, 2007 17:56
I wouldn't mind so much the cops ticketing bone headed riders, such as Jonathan's example, but why is it they instead spend their time doing stings of riders rolling through quiet residental neighborhood stop signs? Why don't they target the cyclists who are the real danger?
I also struggle with myself almost daily trying to decide whether I should chastise other cyclists or not. I'm glad to see Jonathan must think it's OK. If more cyclists did it, the peer pressure might actually have an effect. Messengers excepted of course.
November 13th, 2007 17:58
I rode "kosher" because I don't want to die early--not because I believe that we're all PR officers for our transportation choice. Worrying about how other people ride and the image it projects reminds me of old talk about some black people being "credits to their race." I can't worry about the "image" of other cyclists when too damned many drivers speed, yak on phones, drive drunk, try to separate fighting kids in the car, drive with dogs in their laps................
November 13th, 2007 18:02
Not to be picky, but the picture that goes along with this story is of the new Hawthorne bridge ramp bike lane. The intersection where you got flipped off is next to Ecopdx. And while I don't run stop lights, I can see running that stop light a lot more than I can see running the one at the Hawthorne bridge ramp, so if I wasn't paying too close attention to your description, I'd think that the bicycle did something a lot more dangerous than they actually did... But my main point: If you don't have a picture to go along with your story, then don't post a different one, just don't post one at all.
November 13th, 2007 18:02
rixter: out of everyone's comments, yours stand out to me as the source of some of the most unfounded hostility. "your just wrong." is not an intelligent way to react to somebody, and does nothing to further the conversation.
the rules of the road ARE in fact mostly designed with the safety of cars in mind. yes, bikes and peds are included. HOWEVER. if you can explain clearly how, the lights timed to regulate the speeds of rush hour traffic is related to the same and much more variable speeds of bike and ped traffic, i'd love to hear it. If you can also explain away the difficulty of having to go straight through a bike lane at an intersection where traffic is likely to turn right into you, as something well designed for bikes, please go ahead. i can give you more examples of car specific design if you wish.
bicyclists are in a purgatory of worlds because the have relationships that match cars and peds. They are vulnerable like peds, but they can move at fast speeds close to cars. Bicyclists, like peds are in various stages of physical fitness, and thus cannot be regulated for speed as much as cars. Even with the best brakes, stopping and starting, particularly on hills, is also effected by physical fitness. the unfortunate consequence is that sometimes bicyclists want to behave like cars, and follow the appropriate traffic rules, while at other times want to follow the behavior of pedestrians (who get away with going against lights all the time) when it's convenient.
the point being, in areas where the rules of the road are more dominated by cars, some discretionary breaking of laws for the sake of safety should be acknowledged. (not this particular instance, but the divided debate is clear in this thread). ie. riding on the sidewalk sometimes happens when there's no peds, and high speed car traffic. OR. slowing, but not stopping at stop signs in the middle of hills where the slow start (or unskilled toppling) may cause negative reactions from drivers anyhow.
chicken or egg. if bicyclists could be treated like real traffic, maybe they'd follow real traffic rules. unfortunately, they won't get the treatment unless perceptions are changed.
November 13th, 2007 18:09
" I should chastise other cyclists or not. I'm glad to see Jonathan must think it's OK"
Realize that I didn't "chastise" the guy. My tone was not confrontational at all...rather it was suggestive, as if I was telling him something he might not have been aware of.
November 13th, 2007 18:35
""I wouldn't mind so much the cops ticketing bone headed riders, such as Jonathan's example, but why is it they instead spend their time doing stings of riders rolling through quiet residental neighborhood stop signs? Why don't they target the cyclists who are the real danger?""
K.,
Really, don't you see what is wrong with your statement?
Running a stop sign, or a stop light, IS THE SAME THING.
It is no more illegal, (or more boneheaded as you put it) for someone to have run the light past Jonathan, than it is for the commuters to do it in Ladd's.
Just because you flip someone the bird, doesn't make it a worse offense.
Just cause you commute your way past a stop sign, without stopping, but you have a smile on your face, in no way makes it more ok.
This mind set is the problem that divides us all.
November 13th, 2007 18:36
Well, I'm in the Deep South, and here I was thinking that Portland was the land of milk and honey, but no, there are idiots there too who think that they're too good to obey simple traffic rules, and other idiots who think that someone calling them on it is somehow offensive.
I'd say it kinda makes me feel good, but that's not really true. It makes me feel kind of sad. I ride to work and for fun on the weekends, partly because I just enjoy riding (and have for over 40 years), and partly because I can't stand driving anymore. I obey the rules because I'm keenly aware that in our medium-sized southern city, utility bicyclists are relatively rare, and that I'm an ambassador every time I ride. And yes, we have the same issues here too.
Anarchists are cowards. It takes a real man (or woman) to ride within the rules. Those who don't are doing themselves and everyone else on two wheels a massive disfavor.
November 13th, 2007 18:41
rixter: out of everyone's comments, yours stand out to me as the source of some of the most unfounded hostility. "your just wrong." is not an intelligent way to react to somebody, and does nothing to further the conversation.
Sorry, but a fact is a fact, and the fact is, that "legal analysis" was wrong.
the rules of the road ARE in fact mostly designed with the safety of cars in mind. yes, bikes and peds are included. HOWEVER. if you can explain clearly how, the lights timed to regulate the speeds of rush hour traffic is related to the same and much more variable speeds of bike and ped traffic, i'd love to hear it.
That's not a rule of the road. It is an engineering issue, and I did not claim that infrastructure is not weighted in favor of the automobile. I've claimed quite the opposite, in fact.
If you can also explain away the difficulty of having to go straight through a bike lane at an intersection where traffic is likely to turn right into you, as something well designed for bikes, please go ahead. i can give you more examples of car specific design if you wish.
That's right, "car specific design." And to the extent that cyclists are required by the "rules of the road" to use infrastructure with a car-specific design, then the rules of the road are favoring the automobile. Furthermore, the rules of the road generally require slow-moving vehicles to stay to the right-- the one bit of auto-centrism in the rules of the road. The bicycle analogue to that rule is that where no bike lane exists, bikes that are not riding at the same speed as the normal flow of traffic to ride as close as practicable to the right.
Aside from that nod to the faster vehicle, the rules of the road are generally quite equitable, and sometimes even privilege more vulnerable users of the road.
November 13th, 2007 18:56
Please stop telling me how to drive.
November 13th, 2007 18:58
Jonathan, Thanks for encouraging Ricky Rude to mello out. It's gonna be the happy bikers who win public support for bikes to become the main mode of transport in Oregon. Bike City also needs some clean air... Today at noon I walked by a City Street Repair Truck (College and Broadway) that was idling biodiesel during the lunch hour. There were five city employees inside the truck eating lunch at the time.
November 13th, 2007 19:45
Jonathan,
There is no doubt that the good get most of the crap flying around. That guy that flipped you off is just proof of how much of a difference you are making in this community! I am drinking a wonderful glass of red wine and toasting you!
Thanks for all your hard work!
November 13th, 2007 21:06
Was it a straight middle finger or more of the Euro-style V? I always prefer getting the latter as cyclist AND driver. When I get it, I have usually earned it and the elan of the V suits me best, I feel.
I'm a talker and always seem to be mumbling something to my fellow road/MPU users. Odd thing is, it doesn't seem to matter what I'm saying, I always get the same "What the hell are you doing talking to me" look.
"Nice light, Jogger! Thanks! It really helped me see you on this dark waterfront path."
"Dumb move, Oncoming Biker. You didn't need to pass between that runner and that lady with the baby carriage on the narrow part of this Steel Bridge walkway."
"Your gadget bag is completely obscuring your blinky, Fellow Williams Corridor Rider."
Different messages, same responses.
As sure as Dogs Hate Surprises, People Hate Being Talked Too.
No problem. Just do me the favor of giving me both fingers, please. It's a style thang, and like I said, I've earned it.
November 13th, 2007 21:09
Oh, I forgot!
I got the very same "Whaaaaaa???" look from Jonathan when I mumbled something to him as he held traffic at an intersection during a recent memorial ride downtown.
Perhaps I should be looking inward on this issue...
November 13th, 2007 21:26
Wow. What a jerk that guy was!
But, before I dump on all the rude cyclists out there, let me make a true confession ... I rode through a stop sign tonight near my home. It was a quiet residential corner, but I almost rode right over a jogger that I didn't see approaching from my right.
The jogger was mad and yelled at me as he jogged past. I couldn't make it out, so I yelled back, "what's that?" He yelled something else and kept going. So after thinking it over for a minute, replaying the situation in my mind, I caught up with him and apologized.
As he ran, he said, "Don't worry about it. I'm ok. You're ok. But I'm a bike rider and I like other riders to observe the same rules I do" (or something to that effect).
Not a bad outcome, right? And much better than Jonathan's, right? Maybe. Keep this in mind:
-I made that jogger mad. After all, I almost ran him down on a dark street and I did it by not riding to his standards.
-The jogger also made me mad. Who was he to be acting as Mr. Bike Saint? His running gear consisted of black sweat, a gray vest, and a white hat. No reflector, no light. Did he realize that he was almost totally invisible? (I wasn't - I had 2 front lites, 2 back lites, and I was wearing a full torso reflector - but it was still my duty to see Mr. Invisible and stop.) At the time of our near collision, he was running in the middle of the road, not on the sidewalk. And while he was busy telling me about how he works to keep cycling standards high, he ran right through a stop sign without even slowing down. Puhlease.
If there's a lesson to be learned, it might be this: Yelling at (or being yelled at by) strangers is a lousy way to communicate. Even when you're completely right, it's still a bad way to get a respectful conversation started.
And we do need to get this started. If we want our *needs* as equal users of the roadway to be taken seriously, we're going to have to take our *responsibilities* more seriously too.
November 13th, 2007 22:11
I used to call out scofflaws on bikes, until one of them circled back and threatened me with bodily harm if I didn't shut up and mind my own business.
A bike scofflaw doesn't just make me look bad, but also puts all of us bike riders in greater jepoardy because one bad apple can paint a whole opnion in a driver's mind. So I have to do SOMEthing when it happens.
Now I wag my finger silently after the scofflaw as s/he runs the red light. if there is a car driver in plain sight I may turn and look at him/her and shurg my shoulders sadly. Just to send the message that we're not all jerks.
November 13th, 2007 22:15
I hope mykle #54 gets a nice juicy ticket soon, that would make one less person think the law is just a worthless suggestion.
Rejoyce, ye! Your prayers for fiery retribution are answered! I actually got busted last summer for running a red light, in the middle of the night, across a deserted intersection, with excellent visibility in all directions.
You can read about it here.
November 13th, 2007 22:28
Before I leave. Remember the Jews did exactly what the the Nazis wanted them to to. You know " We all need to follow the rules, and we will all be ok. We are just taking a shower".
In my 16 plus years as a courier I have come to two conclusions. 1:A cyclist will always be a speed bump to a car.
2;No matter how many cyclist are road angels, A typical driver will always forget about his/her mushy feelings towards a cyclist if that cyclist gets in the way of a parking spot or yellow light.
We will always be in the minority. We will always be a cars "speed bump". No matter the intensity of our lobbying.
Or our collective "obeying of the laws". The "I had my signal on defence" will always win out in america. This is not a
fatalist mind set, just a realist.Ask Dabby #102 he knows.
November 13th, 2007 22:43
Unless you are put in harms way (personally) by the others actions, as in the jogger incident above, it is best to:
Mind your own business.
The only real feedback (unless you are lucky) from yelling (which no matter how positive you may feel about it, it will be perceived as negative) at someone else is going to be negative.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
We can thank Sir Issac newton for that little bit of relative wisdom.
If someone is riding how they want, as most of us admit a percentage of the time to doing, they are also thinking how they want, and nothing you yell or do is really going to change that.
November 13th, 2007 23:09
A few people might have mentioned these points. I got tired of reading the same shit over and over. Anyway...
I think the mentality to react when confronted like that comes from how many times we get yelled at by cars.. not even for disobeying a traffic law. Mostly for just being on the road. Thus your natural reaction when being yelled at while riding is to react in such ways. I might have been libel to react in the same way, but I'm tired of other cyclists taking upon themselves to expect us all to be exactly the same in our riding styles.
Also, likely mentioned, if I am correct, that stop sign/light you're discussing is for traffic crossing the max and turning south onto Interstate, correct? As in there is no cross traffic, just traffic turning onto interstate, therefore not blocking the bike lane? If this is the spot I'm thinking of, I never stop at these lights, as unless there are pedestrians, there is no danger. Granted, with a bus parked there, you may not be able to see peds.
I honestly don't care what a bus thinks of my riding. If you spend any considerable time riding downtown, you will notice buses blatantly running red lights constantly, as well as just generally acting like they're the only ones on the road.
And to whoever mentioned that they've never seen a ped react in the same way as the cyclist did when confronted, you're quite wrong.
Again, spend some time downtown. People are constantly crossing against the light, in the middle of the block, etc.. and if you do say something, they'll often react in the same way.
Just because YOU have never seen it happen/done it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Generally I enjoy your reporting, Jonathon... but to repeat something someone mentioned above... it must be a slow news day. This seems hardly worth reporting.
November 14th, 2007 00:10
Even us cyclists can get anarchistic about things. We're not ONE breed. I admit, I sometimes break the law and maybe...maybe would flip someone off for saying that to me, especially with "buddy" thrown in there. I mean, that almost begs for a middle finger.
November 14th, 2007 00:18
Sure, it's great hearing about cycling from the perspective of bike messengers, but their witness to all the miserable antics that lazy incompetent road users perpetrate upon responsible road users does not for me, add up to the formula for the kind of cycling/motor vehicle environment of the future that people should submit to. Conditions that encourage people to work together for something better than that must be created.
The bicycle/motor vehicle environment must be safe, accessible and functional for as wide a spectrum of the public as possible to ensure that environment's greatest chance of success. Most people aren't, or shouldn't be wanting to ride like some bike messengers seem to believe they must to keep their job. Excusing away spoiled rotten behavior such as flipping people off or disregarding traffic regulatory devices is not the kind of thing that is going to help cycling successfully take off on a much larger scale than it is today.
November 14th, 2007 01:37
#113 "Remember the Jews did exactly what the the Nazis wanted them to to. You know " We all need to follow the rules, and we will all be ok. We are just taking a shower"."
1) Godwins law.
2) Sometimes following the rules is a good thing. Imagine what would happen if everyone ignored red lights all the time, even at the busiest intersections?
November 14th, 2007 07:27
My take:
Mind your own business.
"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"
The only thing that will come from a yelled or reactionary response to someone else's actions, whether you agree with them or not, is a negative reaction back to you. (unless for some reason they stop and discuss it with you, which happens once in a blue moon)and even then it is not worth it, for if they stop, it could just get ugly.
Unless that person has personally put you at risk, it is really none of your business what they do with their life, no matter what impact you may believe it has on cycling in general. (I added that because I do realize the effect such actions have on cycling in general)
Is best just to ride on,and put it behind you.
November 14th, 2007 07:50
Message to red-light-running cyclist ..the person who yelled out to you wasn't doing so for one-upmanship..he did it because you were/are breaking the law. You responded in a childish way. Grow up and accept your responsibilities.
November 14th, 2007 08:19
karma effects the person doing it.
as people we can make a diffrence, today
this car tried to go passed me, I just used a nice hand jester to make him aware
of me.. * thanks for waiting *
waving is ok but becareful.
Joe
November 14th, 2007 08:38
Patti, you've got it all wrong!
If you are given or give the bird, here are some real childish responses for those situations:
I'm rubber, you're glue,
So get a patch and fix a tube.
Or:
I don't grow up, stop, or slow up,
'Cause if I skid too much my tire blows up.
(Facial.)