Urban Tribe - Ride with your kids in front.

Police, victim on lookout for road rage attacker

Posted by on January 22nd, 2008 at 3:37 pm

“…he jumped out of his truck and ran at me with a baseball bat.”
–Man who was attacked while riding his bike

Yesterday afternoon, while riding their bike in Northwest Portland, a man was threatened with a baseball bat and punched in the face in front of shocked onlookers by an unidentified man driving a royal-blue Hummer H2.

The victim has now posted to Craigslist in an effort to find the attacker and bring him to justice. Here’s a snip from that post:

“Your help is requested in information that helps locate/arrest/prosecute/neuter/vivisect the driver of a new/newer Hummer H2, royal blue, who assaulted a cyclist at 23rd and NW Pettygrove last night.

Yesterday afternoon (4:30ish) a cyclist was run off the street, assaulted, threatened with a softball bat and punched in the face by the driver of a brand-new royal blue Hummer H2. Police were notified by several calls from about a dozen shocked passers by. The driver took off. The truck had no plates.

If you see a new royal blue H2 with no plates and a 5’8″, balding man in his mid-late 30s driving it, that’d be him. Call it in as the driver that assaulted the cyclist at 23rd and Pettygrove last night.”

From an email I received that was forwarded to me from a friend of the victim, the man riding the bike initially passed by the Hummer as it was stopped in the parking lane. “I spit and he thought I spit on his car,” is what the victim wrote. After that, he wrote,

“…he followed me and tried to run me into parked cars… I right turned and evaded him but he caught me on 24th and tried to run me over. I went back down to 23rd where there were people and he jumped out of his truck ran at me with a baseball bat and shoved me over and punched me in the face when I got up. What a fruit loop.”

If you have information regarding this assault, please contact the Portland police at 503-823-3333. Also, tell the call-taker that the information is related to incident number PP0801211346. That will help the call-taker link your information to the original call.

UPDATE: An astute reader of the Shift email list points out that there is only one Hummer dealer in Portland (and not another one for 100 miles), Vic Alfonso Cadillac Hummer in Northeast. Perhaps they would be able to identify the owner?

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  • Robin January 22, 2008 at 3:53 pm

    The only confrontation I have ever been in was on 23rd just last month. It was an orange Nissan Murano. I go to school in NW and I\’ll keep my eyes open.

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  • felix January 22, 2008 at 3:55 pm

    I have reposted a few places. Get the word out and maybe we can hold this person accountable.

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  • Tasha January 22, 2008 at 4:00 pm

    Wow,, talk about road rage. Maybe the guy was having a bit of a guilt complex for owning a Hummer? Whatever the reason, what he did is so very wrong. I hope someone catches him – shouldn\’t be hard if he doesn\’t have plates (or has the temp plates stuck in his back window). I\’m glad the victim didn\’t get hurt worse.

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  • tonyt January 22, 2008 at 4:03 pm

    \”The truck had no plates.\”

    My first thought is that it is a new car with those impossible to read temporary plates. They\’re often mounted behind tinted glass and with their stupid small numbers, they are pointless.

    Our temporary plates should be paper versions of real plates, to be mounted like a normal plate. I\’ve seen it in other states and they work a heck of a lot better than the jokes we use here.

    Maybe the plate was just missing, but my money is on a temporary one that couldn\’t be seen.

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  • Robert Dobbs January 22, 2008 at 4:07 pm

    All the more reason to pack heat. Exercise your right not to be a victim. Lots of convenient sizes in the most popular calibers!

    Collectors West Gun show at the Expo Center this weekend. Admission is $8, less than $300 and you walk with a serviceable piece. Stop by A Place to Shoot practice often, and take the CCW class. Then show up at the Sheriff\’s office with about $50 for your 4 year concealed carry permit.

    Do any of you really think the cops are going to catch this guy? And if they do, that he\’ll face any sort of justice on par with attempting to run down a cyclist?

    Remember: if any of us did so much as revved an engine at a police officer in a confrontation we\’d be dead.

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  • andy January 22, 2008 at 4:08 pm

    Assuming they catch this guy, what sort of legal strategies are available under Oregon law for prosecuting him? Can this be tried as attempted murder and/or assault with a deadly weapon? Can his brand-new hummer be confiscated? Can his license be permanently revoked?

    Input from some of the legal gurus on this site would be appreciated!

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  • justathought January 22, 2008 at 4:21 pm

    How easy would it be to gather a list of all blue hummers purchased in the area within the past few months?

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  • Matt Picio January 22, 2008 at 4:37 pm

    Robert Dobbs (#5) – it\’s not quite *that* easy – you also have to take a class on handling a weapon, taught by a certified instructor. Also, it\’s $65, not $50 – there is a $15 processing fee for the State Police to do their background check.

    Frankly, while I support the 2nd Amendment, and I\’ve advocated self-defense in the past (including carrying firearms), I\’m not sure that cyclists carrying guns is a good idea. Beyond the possibilities of someone doing something stupid, accidental discharge during a bike crash, or increased attention from the police, there are possibilities for escalation. Really, we need to reduce tensions, not increase them.

    My opinion, take it for whatever you think it\’s worth.


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  • Robin January 22, 2008 at 4:38 pm

    That\’s true, it really doesn\’t seem like it would be that hard to get the info about the hummer. Since a witness saw the attack it seems like it would be more easy to prosecute for assault.

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  • martin January 22, 2008 at 4:46 pm

    Like many new car owners, Hummer people tend to brag about their new cars on the respective forums. I, for one, regularly checked out the forums for my new Nissan Versa a couple years ago. Perhaps a stroll over to hummerforums.com would yield some leads?

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  • Vance January 22, 2008 at 4:54 pm

    There are two sides to every story. You\’ve heard one…

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  • Robert Dobbs January 22, 2008 at 5:03 pm

    Matt @8

    For what its worth, I did mention the CCW class…

    A well-designed modern firearm should never discharge by accident. And as far as \”doing somethings stupid\”, are you suggesting that cyclists are more stupid than any other potential firearms owner?

    As for reducing tensions, maybe the cyclist could have offered the poor stressed out H2 driver a neckrub after he was done getting his face pushed in?

    And increased attention from the police? That\’s a pretty chilling coming from a self-proclaimed supporter of the 2nd Amendment. I\’d think throwing down w/ the next road rager may give car-heads pause before they try to run down / murder a cyclist as a \”joke\”.

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  • PJ January 22, 2008 at 5:05 pm

    There are a couple of problems with carrying a firearm while riding: first anything worth carrying is heavy, second there is no good place to carry it that you would want it in a crash. It would be unlikely to discharge in a crash but landing on it would put you in the chiropractor’s office for months. Carrying it in your saddle bags would save your body but it isn’t quickly accessible or dry. The other drawback is –once you are competent–you should go practice at least once a month. Finally the likelihood of needing to protect yourself with a firearm while riding is very very low.

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  • Russell January 22, 2008 at 5:06 pm

    @Vance #11:

    Please, tell me, what validates a driver running a cyclist off the road (and attempting to run them over), threatening them with a baseball bat, punching them, and then driving away?

    As for finding this guy, I agree that it should be fairly easy.

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  • n8m January 22, 2008 at 5:08 pm

    Maybe he\’ll have a case insomuch as he was just using the car for what it was designed for; an attack vehicle. 🙂 Glad to hear the victim is alive to tell (or post on craigslist) about it.

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  • Pedro January 22, 2008 at 5:09 pm

    That is true Vance… but I can hardly call a confrontation between a Hummer and a bike a fair fight. Even if the action of the biker was intentional I would hardly call a punch in the face and swinging a bat around just retribution either…. if the driver had a legal leg to stand on he shouldn’t have feared the arrival of the police to tell his side of the story, instead the hot headed coward ran.

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  • Robert Dobbs January 22, 2008 at 5:12 pm

    Jeez, that was an awful response! my hands must still be numb from the ride…

    Short of it is this: If you expect the police or the public to defend you from car-head psychopaths you are sorely misguided. We have no Vehicular Homicide law in this state. It is simple not a priority for the legislature or law enforcement to make car-head murderers accountable for their actions (except when those actions are directed at the police. They get to make their own rules.).

    Should you find yourself in a situation where you are regularly out-classed from a safety & security standpoint, you may want to consider alternative ways to defend yourself. Aside from joining the ranks of the cagers, in this state you also have the wholly legal right to arm yourself to prevent grievous bodily harm.

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  • Jim O\'Horo January 22, 2008 at 5:15 pm

    There was a Hummer dealership at the Vancouver Auto Mall until fairly recently. I\’d check with them too.

    Did the police draw a sketch of the attacker? Anyone with a fuse that short is a danger to everyone – he should be found quickly.

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  • Robert Dobbs January 22, 2008 at 5:19 pm

    @PJ #13

    There are a couple of problems with carrying a firearm while riding: first anything worth carrying is heavy

    Check out Kel-Tec\’s PF-9. Very small, very safe (DAO), affordable (~$240) and quite a whallop (9mm). Smaller mouse guns would also be quite suitable for conversation-distance carhead confrontations.

    second there is no good place to carry it that you would want it in a crash.

    Meh. A quality shoulder holster would keep it quite accessible, dry and secure, even in a crash. Pocket holsters are also reasonably comfortable while riding. Fanny packs are an (dorky) option too. I don\’t think it would hurt you any more than the pavement if you fell.

    Finally the likelihood of needing to protect yourself with a firearm while riding is very very low.

    Now that is a matter of personal perception. Statistically you\’re absolutely right, but for some folks buying some security is priceless.

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  • Tbird January 22, 2008 at 5:22 pm

    Sounds like an epidemic. My girlfriend and I were attacked at SE28th/Stark on Sat evening as well. Fortunately, our maniac had license plates and there were witnesses who called the PPB while the assault was taking place.
    As far as charges, our guy got charged with Assault II, a felony. Hopefully the psycho in the NW23rd incident will get the same treatment. My advice is to stay in contact with any witnesses, and check the dealerships. No plates sounds like it could be a dealer rep, or a new purchase.
    People like this don\’t deserve to breath the same are as decent folks.
    Hummer driver says it all.

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  • Ron January 22, 2008 at 5:31 pm

    I find the talk of guns in this context to be extremely disturbing. This is a populated area. People were reported to be standing around. A struggle involving a gun could endanger completely uninvolved parties.

    People have been shooting at each other since guns were invented — they have never resulted in a more polite and caring society.

    I harbor no animosity towards the 2nd amendment, but to suggest that pulling a gun in situations like this would be a good thing is extremely irresponsible, imho.


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  • Stripes January 22, 2008 at 5:36 pm

    How messed up.

    I lived in this area during my first few months in Portland, but quickly moved to the eastside.

    I couldn\’t take how scary it was having yuppie SUV drivers careening around the (what are supposed to be quiet, cycle-friendly) backstreets far too fast, yakking on their cell phones, screaming at their kids in the backseat, and generally not paying an ounce of attention to their surroundings. The area around Legacy Good Samariton is especially bad.

    I wonder if anybody who witnessed the attack had the epiphany to take a photo with their own cell phone?

    I never bike anywhere without having my cameraphone immediately to hand. It\’s very handy for catching licenceplates.

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  • Stripes January 22, 2008 at 5:38 pm

    ps – a Hummer driver did this. Wow.

    What a surprise.

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  • a.O January 22, 2008 at 5:46 pm

    I\’d like to take this opportunity to point out that, contrary to popular belief and the endless lies of the NRA, the Second Amendment to our Constitution does not guarantee any individual the right to bear arms. United States v. Miller, 307 US 174 (1939).

    I\’d also like to take this opportunity to express the considered opinion that people who weild guns or who advocate weilding guns as a means of stopping or preventing violence need to have their heads checked. In comparable societies where people do not have guns, there is far less violence and specifically far fewer gun deaths than there are in the United States. So, quaint as the idea might be that guns create a civil society, mountains of facts demonstrate otherwise.

    Think about it, gun-death advocates are asking you to accept the premise that there is no connection between having a gun and killing someone and not having a gun and not killing someone. And then they\’re telling you you\’re a fool and a Communist for asserting that there is one. Their logic defies reason and all the evidence. Their lies are despicable.

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  • Matt Picio January 22, 2008 at 5:54 pm

    Robert (#8) – you\’re right, you did mention the CCW class – I missed it somehow.

    Yes, it is a chilling statement – it\’s a chilling world. I\’m a realist – I take responsibility for my own defense, but I guarantee that if PPB finds out any \”significant\” cyclists are packing, there will be increased attention paid to cyclists.

    There are many considerations and responsibilities to owning a firearm and carrying it on one\’s person. Our rights do not obviate or supersede them. My acknowledgment of that fact does not mean I disbelieve in those rights.


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  • steve January 22, 2008 at 6:10 pm


    Canadians have a lot of guns and they are not running around shooting each other. Guns are not the problem. Americans are.

    If a psycho had just run me off the road and was coming at me with a ball bat, I would do anything I could to keep him the hell away from me.

    If I had a rock, throw the rock.

    Sword, point and thrust said sword.

    Gun, point and baseball bat no crack open my skull.

    Sounds pretty damn sensible to me.

    If I saw someone not using any means available to prevent such an attack, I would say that they are the ones needing their head checked.

    I would never carry or advocate carrying a gun. I certainly would not want to tell others that they can not, however. What a slippery slope.

    Whatever the solution to the insanity of our country is, it will not begin with yet another encroachment of our already embattled civil liberties.

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  • Toby January 22, 2008 at 6:38 pm

    I\’ll add to what Ron and AO were saying, the a-hole could be dead right now. This was not a situation that warrants death. The cyclist was threatened and assulted, which really sucks, but then the guy bailed. If the cyclist were to pull his gun out and blast him, he\’d probably still be in jail right now shivering in the corner because he killed someone. Or worse, the 10 year old girl 1/4 mile down the road could of dropped before her Mom even heard the shot.

    Yeah, make me want to start packing. Unfortunately, we\’d all probably be surprised at how many people carry. Kind of scary. I\’m not anti gun, I just don\’t think they belong on the streets.

    That siad, I hope they catch the guy.

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  • steve January 22, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    Good points Toby.

    Important to note that this guy had a bat, which is every bit as lethal as a gun. That is why cops carry them and heck, theirs are little teeny ones.

    I am so glad this guy was not nutty enough to use it.

    Important to note that some people are.

    Having hindsight is great, cause it means you aren\’t dead. This incident could easily have resulted in the cyclists death. From being struck by the car or the bat, or even the guys fist.

    This wasn\’t simply a fist fight. It was a Hummer, baseball bat, fist fight.

    I did not type all that as a pro gun argument. I just don\’t want us to diminish the severity of what happened.

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  • whitehe9 January 22, 2008 at 7:09 pm

    I vote for Pedro!! I wholeheartedly agree with your comments and I have had plenty of encounters with vehicles ranging from 3000lb to 10,000lb. I\’m a defensive rider and don\’t provoke them on purpose – no more flying the bird but it seems they want to kill you – bird or no bird. my advice is be prepared. if they get out of their vehicle whatever you do is self defense. i\’m getting some mace. mace in the face then a swift kick in the nuts.

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  • Ayala January 22, 2008 at 7:14 pm

    I work at Good Sam and will keep an eye out for the Hummer…and I agree with Stripes (#22) – people drive like maniacs around the hospital.

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  • PDXGS January 22, 2008 at 7:30 pm

    The attacker had the means (baseball bat) and intent to do bodily harm to the cyclist. Enough said.
    This is way beyond menacing with a car.
    I pack and I\’m responsible.
    I\’ll be damned if some asshole is going to get out of a car with a bat and walk away.
    Do what you choose.
    I\’ll defend myself.

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  • Ian Clemons January 22, 2008 at 7:37 pm

    Sounds like METH to me. Or mental illness. Or both. From working in a local ER, I can say that when people are acting this far out of the bounds of normal, rational behavior, it is often due to underlying mental illness or substance abuse. Not that this should forgive the perp, just as a potential explaination of his actions.


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  • PoPo January 22, 2008 at 7:39 pm

    I would like to voice my support of a.O (#24) and Toby (#27).

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  • PoPo January 22, 2008 at 7:50 pm

    Also, if anyone has information that would be helpful for this investigation, please call the non-emergency number–503-823-3333–and tell the call-taker that the information is related to incident number PP0801211346. That will help the call-taker link your information to the original call.

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  • Dabby January 22, 2008 at 7:56 pm

    I am disgusted to see that this has turned into a discussion about carrying firearms, and on top of that, using them.

    You people might want to be ashamed of yourselves.

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  • a.O January 22, 2008 at 8:03 pm

    Steve, perhaps you missed this in my post: Carrying a gun is NOT a civil liberty. The Supreme Court said so as early as 1939. I even gave you the citation – you can go read the actual law.

    The fact that you believe it is a civil liberty demonstrates the effectiveness of the lobbying and mass media campaigns of the big corporate interests who profit from gun sales.

    I find your misunderstanding of our Constitutionally protected civil rights particularly sad given that our government routinely violates foundational civil rights – you know, real ones – like those in the Fourth and Eighth Amendments.

    And Canadians do not have access to handguns the way Americans so. Again: guns = deaths. It\’s that simple. Go look at the data.

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  • Jonathan Maus (Editor) January 22, 2008 at 8:26 pm

    OK folks, I respect the discussion about gun rights/laws, but it would be preferred by me to keep focused on the task of finding this guy in the Hummer and getting to the bottom of this story.

    Guns are like helmets.. this thread could go on forever and while that does have value, a drawn out discussion will turn other readers off and will result in less attention for the real task at hand.

    thanks for keeping that in mind.

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  • steve January 22, 2008 at 8:28 pm

    Sorry to disagree AO, as I certainly feel we have the same concerns on this issue.

    My contention is that the violence in our society has nothing to do with the guns laying about.

    This jerk in his Hummer illustrated that clearly. Head to a prison and examine the gunless violence.

    Head to our streets and examine the gunless violence.

    Look on these forums and read the gunless violence.

    I won\’t be heading to any rallys to support guns on our streets.

    I also won\’t be deluding myself that removing them will fix our crumbling empire.

    If you need any help advocating for enforcing the already existing gun laws, I could probably get behind that. Just like I am in favor of enforcing existing traffic laws.

    They could ban all handguns tomorrow and nothing would change, Heck let\’s have a national \”War on Guns\”.

    I somehow think that it will go as well as our Wars on drugs and poverty and aids and abortions and people with oil and, and, and.

    Guns are not the disease, they are a symptom. Sadly, one of many.

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  • steve January 22, 2008 at 8:32 pm

    You are right Jonathon.

    It seems as though even the greenest, most laziest Cop should be able to figure this one out in about 2 hours.

    It is simply a matter of someone troubling themselves to search through some DMV records and make a couple calls to some dealerships.

    It will be interesting to see how long it takes. I am guessing by tomorrow, Thursday at the latest, we will be seeing this whack-a-doos mug on your front page.

    My fingers are crossed.

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  • KTesh January 22, 2008 at 9:15 pm

    My hope would be that when the driver is found, and should he be convicted of assault, menacing, attempted murder… and what ever else that can be stuck to this (remember, presumption of innoccence applies)… before he is carted off to jail for the remainder of his natural days, he should get the pleasure of watching his Dummer be shredded in a recycling center, and the remaining scrap be melted down to make however many bikes that can be made out of it (then donated to charities).

    just my $.02

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  • BURR January 22, 2008 at 9:34 pm

    #32 just sounds like good old misguided motorist entitlement to me

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  • Mike January 22, 2008 at 10:48 pm

    Ill keep in eye out for this guy as I live down the street and I am in the area everyday on my bike.
    As far as the gun talk go\’s…. I have a licence to carry and own a HK 40 cal, I don\’t carry it while on the bike for a lot of reasons that where mentioned… and in the rare event that I did have to defend myself, I carry a pretty hefty U-lock in my back pocket that I am pretty handy with.

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  • wsbob January 23, 2008 at 12:09 am

    I hope the victim got contact info from at least some of the witnesses. As others have speculated, maybe it will be possible to track this character down. Imagine the suspect\’s reaction when that happens and he\’s confronted with what he\’s done. Possible ideas about how to deal with such a person: At the very minimum, if the victim\’s account of the incident is corroborated, the suspect should be compelled to undergo a thorough psychological evaluation and treatment as needed, paid for out of his personal resources.

    On top of that, his license should be suspended for at least a year and reinstated pending the result of a follow-up psych eval indicating he has developed sufficient temperament to safely operate a motor vehicle in traffic. An additional condition of his permission to drive a motor vehicle in traffic might be to require that any vehicle he drive be placarded with clearly visible signs informing other drivers on the road that the driver has a record of road rage.

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  • GeorgeX January 23, 2008 at 1:21 am

    All of you who are upset with the lack of laws or prosecution of existing one are hippocrits. This is you community, if you want laws or other things changed, get involved and get it done. Whining is the lazy way to express yourself.

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  • Moo January 23, 2008 at 7:44 am

    Maybe things have worked there way out already this a.m. in id\’ing this guy, but my comment would be; what the heck are all these \”witnesses\” doing just standing and staring at this f\’d up chaotic scene? Understandably if the guy has a bat in hand maybe it\’s best… but wondering if there was any attempt by anyone to help the cyclist at all. But too, being it\’s nw 23rd, can\’t imagine anyone wanting to screw up there saunter down the street or cocktail hour. So, guess I don\’t know which way to go on this, so nw 23rd snobs I\’ll let you off the hook with a warning!

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  • Jean Reinhardt January 23, 2008 at 8:10 am

    Yes I\’m a bigot and not ashamed of it–what the hell do you expect out of the kind of subhuman who would drive a Hummer?

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  • Marion January 23, 2008 at 8:17 am

    My husband and I always joke that perhaps men who drive hummers are trying to compensate for having small body parts, and you know the one I mean!!

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  • jami January 23, 2008 at 9:19 am

    marion, conversely, men on bikes…

    i think the humvee dealership is a good lead, especially given the lack of plates. they probably aren\’t going to give customer info to random people who ask, so i hope the police are putting some time into this.

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  • greenkrypto January 23, 2008 at 9:24 am

    I work in NW and have seen a vehicle matching that description on St. Helen\’s Hwy.

    #40, I like the shredder idea. But before they shred it, how about a charity event benefiting injured cyclists…charge $5 per person to smack the hummer with a baseball bat.

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  • Bicycledave January 23, 2008 at 9:29 am

    I carry a shiny, waterproof digital camera in my back pocket…

    There are some maneuvers to learn that could help in this situation.

    If a jerk in a Hummer is chasing you zip up to the next intersection and make a u-turn right behind a car going the opposite direction. Use the other car as a shield or go up on the sidewalk.

    If someone gets out of their car just ride away from them. If that\’s not possible get off your bike and hold it up as a shield between you and your attacker. And as someone mentioned before don\’t forget that handy U-lock.

    Hope this guy gets caught and that the victim recovers as quickly as possible.

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  • Andrew January 23, 2008 at 9:46 am

    This makes me really sad.

    I hope they get the guy so we can take his car away get him a bike, get him into some anger management/yoga sessions, convince him to wear a Cars-R-Coffins t-shirt and take him around Portland day and night to let him feel how vulnerable we cyclists can feel on our streets everyday.

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  • Zach January 23, 2008 at 9:47 am

    A.O., the 1939 case does not answer the question of whether the 2nd amendment is an individual or collective right. That\’s why there\’s a case before the supreme court right now that will.

    This is a question of law that even many liberal scholars disagree on, and it\’s disingenuous of you to imply that it\’s so clear-cut, especially since so many people on here respect your legal knowledge.

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  • Jennifer January 23, 2008 at 9:54 am

    He might have more luck on Craigslist if he posted this under General in Community rather in For Sale under Bikes. I imagine more people under the General catagory would be familiar with this car than people looking for bikes for sale.

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  • Mark January 23, 2008 at 9:58 am

    Or, as Marion suggested, post it under Women Seeking Men and ask if any of the ladies there have had any \”encounters of the very short kind\” lately by a Hummer-driving madman.

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  • L. Armstrong January 23, 2008 at 10:36 am

    Cyclists packing heat is exactly the image we need if we want respect out on the streets. You can get a small piece and pack it in your messenger bag.

    No one runs the Hell\’s Angels of the road, do they?

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  • Dabby January 23, 2008 at 11:16 am

    One more thing,

    If they can\’t even give out a ticket when a driver kills a cyclist, what makes you think they are going to rush on out to a Hummer dealership to solve this one?

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  • Torfinn January 23, 2008 at 11:16 am

    Mwahahaha laughing at L Armstrong.

    Thanks, I was thinking that to some degree myself.

    I gotta weigh in a.O your argument is logical but not legal. There are currently several legal battles raging all over the country right now in regards to this issue, and you\’re being completely disengenuous suggesting otherwise if you have any real legal knowledge.

    There would be no REASON for the NRA to exist if there were no restrictions on firearms, and if you think those fat cats aren\’t aware of that you\’re being naive.

    Google will educate you in regards to the NRA\’s current manipulation of courtcases attempting to get this out of courts, purely for the reason they don\’t want 2nd amendment clarity, because they know that means their constituents won\’t need them anymore.

    The firearms aren\’t going anywhere, whether they\’re legal or not.

    I\’ve got to say this would be a huge stretch to qualify as a valid or responsible situation to use a firearm in that point made though.

    I\’ll be on the lookout for this vehicle, and I I\’m going to tell everyone I know about it!

    I\’m glad the cyclist is ok, and suffered little more than bruised ego.

    However, the assault 2 charge isn\’t going to do much to keep this driver off the road.

    I understand the sentiment some of you people have in regards to varying degrees of force used in self defense, but it\’s my job to decide for myself what level of defense is appropriate based on the situation I\’m in, and not for someone else to decide for me. I also live with the consequences, which are high enough that a wise decision is the only choice.

    My thoughts.

    If you guys check out Hummer forums, which I randomly did the other day they have quite a representation here in Portland, and are very proud of their threats of violence towards anyone who offends their sensibilities for their vehicle choices.

    Note to yourselves, their general attitude isn\’t exactly as split on the issue as we are about how they\’d preferably deal with those of us that simply annoy them for their conspicuous vehicle choices for the most part.

    Ride safe!

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  • Jonathan Maus (Editor) January 23, 2008 at 11:22 am

    and over on the Shift email list they\’re talking about creating a \”Wanted\” poster with a sketch of the guy and even offering a reward for tips that lead to his arrest.

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  • steve January 23, 2008 at 11:37 am

    Our time and efforts should not be wasted on vigilante justice and a bunch of bike riding Jr. detectives.

    The police should have no trouble identifying this perp. The shift list and all of us would do beetter by bringing pressure upon the PPD and our elected? officials.

    What the hell are we paying them all for, if not this?

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  • steve January 23, 2008 at 11:39 am

    \”Tips that lead to his arrest\”.

    We already have all the tips we need. The DMV will not release the necessary information to anyone but the fuzz. I am sure a similar situation will unfold at the dealerships.

    Any word as to if the police are troubling themselves to investigate?

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  • Evan January 23, 2008 at 12:05 pm

    Go to DMV, in both OR and WA.

    Make a public records request.

    Ask for any recently registered Hummers awaiting plates.

    Especially look for vanity plate requests.

    File a charge of assult, battery and attempted murder by car/baseball bat.
    Make this guy a poster \”child.\”
    Good luck.

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  • Torfinn January 23, 2008 at 12:06 pm

    Steve, I think tips that lead to his arrest are things like sightings, or perhaps his neighbor piping in….

    So, I think until the guy is found more tips are needed.

    The dealership may have sold a dozen blue hummers, it may\’ve been from out of state, etc.

    Say the guy was visiting from Southern Oregon…

    well you get my point. The Police aren\’t omnipotent, and we\’d all be a lot better off if everyone stopped treating them like they were supposed to be.

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  • Opus the Poet January 23, 2008 at 12:56 pm

    Has anybody heard anything from PPB on this whacko, and his whackomobile? Temp tags are only good for 30 days, and Royal blue is not a common color of Hummer, so how many perps would they have to check? And most of those could be eliminated just by distance from the crime. Leaving this guy loose on the streets is a danger to every cyclist in Portland.

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  • Stripes January 23, 2008 at 12:58 pm

    I think somebody should post an I Saw U in the Portland Mercury.

    Me: Male cyclist riding down NW 23rd @ Pettygrove, minding my own business

    You: Male royal blue Hummer driver with appauling temper, bald patch, and baseball bat, literally succeeded in hitting on me.

    Don\’t mean to make light of a serious situation, but *everybody* reads the I Saw Us in this town. Somebody might recognize the guy or car.

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  • steve January 23, 2008 at 1:43 pm


    Who is talking about omnipotence?

    The police track down much more obscure vehicles in hit and run cases all the time.

    This is a simple and straightforward investigation, with all necessary information already available.

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  • Cecil January 23, 2008 at 10:40 pm

    So, I am wondering why I have not seen any media coverage of this incident (other than this site, I mean)? Given the local MSM\’s general eagerness to exploit the whole \”bike vs car\” thing, one would have thought they\’d be all over it . . .

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  • Torfinn January 23, 2008 at 11:50 pm

    Cecil, if a cyclist had assaulted a vehicle then maybe we\’d be gettin some airtime!

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  • Espy January 24, 2008 at 1:44 am

    While a.O maybe correct about indvidual gun rights may I submit (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html and http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15304). Which outlines that police only have the responsibility to clean up after the fact and that responsible gun ownership may not always indicate what path a society may take. I respect his point of view and but humbly add that while being a registered RepublicanBush supporter, I have a deep respect for him and wish him a long life and a heated debate. I wish no harm to him or anyone else that identifies with the left, because we don\’t agree makes us even more suited to argue our interpetations of the facts. Im not an attorney and do not have the same skill set he has. I do believe that we all have a God given right to protect ourselves.

    I would rather have a 1,000 bike Portland armed readers to argue with than 1 dead bicyclist who could have diffused a situation with a drawn gun. Many so called tough guys react differently when a gun is drawn on them. That is their greatest value, a tangible indicator of how this interaction may turn out.

    Also if guns cause crime where is the rampant violence in Switzerland? They are issued machine guns and yet somehow escape the same pitfalls that plague our society. Also societies that limit gun ownership see a drop in gun crime and a rise in other violent crime(http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/hotline/2007/11/gun-bans-lead-to-increase-in-violent.php http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/firearms/control/ukutopia.html).

    One last point if I may, while deployed to Somalia I noticed a change in my command staff. They did not issue the keep busy orders that they had in the past. While issuing orders they allowed us to relax a bit and didn\’t push us as they had in the barracks. Maybe that is the biggest argument to a more polite society.

    I am a 1 issue voter if you haven\’t gathered as much. I don\’t believe the left is as wrong as they sound, just under-armed to repel those that disagree with them.

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  • shhambo January 24, 2008 at 9:22 am

    How about flooding the newsrooms with phone calls to ask them to help us with this by doing a phone call.

    Here is the number for kgw: 503-226-5000
    fox: 503-548-6550

    I\’m telling them that is all over bikeportland and they are missing a good story. And that if there station is really bike they will help us with this.

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  • shhambo January 24, 2008 at 9:36 am

    I just called katu. They have the file.
    It says the cyclist won\’t talk to them or to the police. Police file says cyclist not co-operating. They would like to talk with him to. But he is remaining anonymous.
    They want to do the story but say they can\’t because the cyclist will not co-operate. I\’m not sure why they can\’t at least put a blurb out about tips on finding the hummer. But that is what they told me.

    katu just said they had the story but hadn\’t done it yet. they will pass it to there web team to see if they want it.

    fox said they weren\’t aware but will look into it.\’

    koin said they never got the newsflash from the police. basically made it sound like if it doesn\’t come off the police wire they won\’t bother. I asked him if he would look into it. He said says after I asked.

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  • Jonathan Maus (Editor) January 24, 2008 at 9:37 am

    \”How about flooding the newsrooms with phone calls to ask them to help us with this by doing a phone call.\”

    I\’ve spoken with KGW… they were working on something last night but it didn\’t come together…. they would still like the victim and/or a friend/witness to contact them in case they pick it back up.

    KGW news room – newsdesk@kgw.com … Ask for Scott Burton.

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  • Torfinn January 24, 2008 at 10:40 am

    Poor guy, really bruised his ego!

    @ Espy. You\’re entirely incorrect a.0 is wrong in his interperetation because he\’s pretending the 1903 Dick act doesn\’t exist.

    Every able bodied man between ages 17-47 is a State militia member whether they know it or not.


    As you can plainly see it is your duty as a citizen, and part of an unorganized militia to protect your country much the same as Swiss citizens are loosely organized.

    This is why when the supreme court votes they\’ve no choice but to provide the clarity on firearm ownership rights that gun control advocates are going to be very displeased with.

    This is also why the NRA is fighting tooth and nail to keep that case out of the supreme court.

    NRA = bigger gun control advocate than a.O.

    I\’m sorry for the off topic post, but I thought it was necessary to educate the unaware of which they speak.

    I hope the cyclist invovled let\’s his pride guard down a little and comes forward with the story so that we can get the community invovled in pushing another road rager off the street.

    Even if he did spit on the guys car, a baseball punchisode escapade on the street is no logical way of following that up.

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  • BURR January 24, 2008 at 11:26 am

    Likely suspect vehicle parked at NE corner SW Broadway and Salmon as of five minutes ago, w/ expired parking. No visible temporary tag, even in the heavily tinted rear window. \’Vic Alphonso\’ license plate, royal blue. Someone else got the VIN number, and it will be reported.

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  • rodeo clown January 24, 2008 at 11:32 am

    Perhaps the rider doesn\’t want to be identified b/c he is easily tracked via google, a wide social network in a small town, doesn\’t want to fuel the bike vs. car mood in the popular press.

    What\’s with the gun advocacy? The irony of being attacked and not fighting back was not lost on the cyclist on the day we celebrate the birthday of one of the 20th century\’s preeminent nonviolent civil right activists.

    If you really feel you need to, carry non-lethal defense, mace, pepper spray, etc. Me, I\’ll continue to bike unarmed with the will and support of more than 30,000 Portland bike commuters behind me.

    I have it on good account that the male cyclsit filed a police report on Monday and IS cooperating with the police, simply shying from the mainstream press.

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  • Scott January 24, 2008 at 11:40 am

    I saw the guy today, 11:25am on the corner of Broadway and Salmon. He was parking his waste of a vehicle. I quickly found a spot, ran back to see if I could get a picture of him with my camera, but no such luck. I did manage to take a few snap shots of the vehicle, and wrote down the VIN #. I also called and reported the location of the vehicle and VIN to the police. If you want to contact me, I have the pictures saved on my phone and the VIN. I\’m just upset that I could not get a photo of him for you. My e-mail is sjones@gbertonilaw.com

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  • steve January 24, 2008 at 11:47 am

    A murdered non-violent civil rights activist.

    An activist who advocated for racial equality and an end to poverty. Neither of which have been accomplished decades later.

    I don\’t have a point, but then again, neither did you!

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  • dieselboi January 24, 2008 at 12:39 pm

    Is this the hummer? Seen parked in front of the Hilton on SW Broadway with a cop car and the cop asking someone some questions. Royal Blue with no license plates.


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  • Scott January 24, 2008 at 12:58 pm

    That is the one I saw and reported to the Police. Damn, I am really impressed at the turn around time of the PPB on this one. Within 1 hour they are at the car and questioning someone. I am not sure if it is the exact vehicle in question, but at the least the driver will be asked where his license plate/temp permit is. That to me at least deserves a fine, not to mention his parking sticker expired at 11:12am and I was there at 11:25am!

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  • WillJongIll January 24, 2008 at 1:31 pm

    Interesting discussion.

    1) Not all 2nd amendment advocates are right-wing Bush lovers. I\’m a Nader-voting, cappuccino sipping, Portland-grown communist and while I\’ll vote for the left, I appreciate the rights the 2nd amendment affords me. I have a CCW and advocate other responsible, sane, reasonable people to do the same. The CCW people I know/have met all take the added responsibilities of carrying very seriously.

    2) If someone is coming at you with a baseball bat, you may be about to be murdered. Personally, I would rather be alive and carry than be murdered, even though there\’s a fair chance the person attacking me might change his or her mind at the last second.

    3) I agree with the many other people who have pointed out (as Michael Moore did in BFC) that other countries, like Canada, are also awash in firearms. Unlike America, killing people isn\’t one of their national pass times. Cultural difference.

    4) There are so many \”bikers\” you can\’t really generalize certain things though. Just as there are crazy car drivers, there are, among the bike riding community, some eccentrics. It would be inappropriate to say \”all people who ride bikes should carry guns\”. However, the principle of carrying (especially if you encounter this type of craziness regularly) is not a bad one.

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  • Torfinn January 24, 2008 at 1:59 pm

    Thx WIllJong.

    Some things transcend politics, including the distaste for horrible governing bodies!


    I\’m glad the PDX police showed us some sensebility. I hope this guy gets some time, or atleast a big PITA fine.

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  • dano January 24, 2008 at 2:09 pm

    I find it interesting that the guy had a bat. wtf? I\’d call that premeditation.

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  • travis January 24, 2008 at 4:58 pm

    ya it seems like anyone who drives a hummer most likely wouldn\’t be gettin his softball game on in the middle of january….

    i work a few blocks from where the attack took place. every day i encounter aggressive drivers. today between 23rd and 12th ave i had 3 close calls with motorists! and i am not reckless!!! i wear lots of lights and obey laws!!! working and biking in NW i have noticed that alot of these rich people have a serious chip on their shoulders…

    it\’d probably help if alot of cyclists down town would stop watching quicksilver and bike safely.

    this is a two sided problem. granted i\’ve never seen a cyclist with a bat or any kind of weapon…
    or do U-locks count as weapons?

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  • Robert Dobbs January 24, 2008 at 5:26 pm

    @24 a.O. Your argument is totally, utterly spurious. I bet you advise people that the Income Tax is voluntary, too. If you want facts – and not legal speculation – please refer to this site:


    Newsflash: The strong prey on the weak. This is true in societies with and without guns. In the states and cities w/ unquestionably the strongest gun control laws in our country, we have the highest murder rates (CA, NY, DC), the states with the most lax (aka Shall Issue laws, requiring the issuing of a CCW permit to all legal gun owners) – the lowest murder rates.

    Remember, a gun is an inanimate object, it doesn\’t make a killer out of a man any more than a softball bat or a SUV does.

    \”God may have made man, but Sam Colt made them equal\”.

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  • a.O January 24, 2008 at 5:46 pm

    Wow, the lies and propaganda just keep coming!

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  • Werner January 24, 2008 at 9:38 pm

    I fail to see how we get from road raging hummer driver to gun-totin\’ cyclists.

    You are on a bike, trying to not crash as you avoid some tool with a 6,000 weapon. How are you going to whip out yer unit and pop a cap? Better to ride another day.
    Sounds like the cyclist did the right thing.
    Had the cyclist been packing heat, there might be a dead person, instead of bruised cyclist. The driver may be an arse, but does not deserve to die at the hands of one of us, for throwing a punch and making threatening gestures.

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  • wsbob January 24, 2008 at 10:11 pm

    I\’ve got to agree with everyone opposed to the idea of cyclists carrying concealed weapons. Proposing that cyclists pack heat has got to be one of the more idiotic notions tossed around this weblog for some time. Do we really want our society to revert to a frontier setting, with people gunning for each other to settle disputes? And who do you think is going to lose in that game, 90% of the time, the cyclist or the person encased in their motor vehicle?

    I\’ve little doubt that many of the knotheads driving big hunks of junk would love nothing more than an escalation in the present somewhat adversarial relationship between cyclists and motor vehicles that might offer such knotheads a sense of justification to flat out shoot people on bikes they have issues with.

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  • tonyt January 25, 2008 at 8:18 am

    Dano #81,

    Premeditation? Perhaps. I\’d say look at the whole, ummmmm, package.

    Hummer? Bat? Middle-aged bald guy? Can we say COMPENSATION?

    Re: Robert \”gun-porn\” Dobbs, I agree with a number of the people who\’ve posted. While a fan of the 2nd amendment, I question the wisdom of a gun as the answer to a fist fight in the middle of the day on Trendy-Third?

    Can we say dead innocent bystanders?

    If the cyclist needs to do anything, he needs to learn how to evade. I\’m dumbfounded that he couldn\’t get away from some idiot in a contraption as UN-maneuverable as a Hummer. Can you say sidewalks? Wrong way on one-way streets? There is a time to break the law, and getting chased by a numb-nut with a bat is one of them.

    There\’s almost always an out.

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  • Osama Bin Hummer January 25, 2008 at 8:58 am

    #87 what if the cyclist says he did sucessfully evade within a block or two but that the Hummer was \”hunting\” him and caught up with him on 24th, 10 blocks from the initial encounter?

    Does the meathead belong to that gym down there in the teens streets on Overton?

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  • Robert Dobbs January 25, 2008 at 10:55 am

    TO ALL:

    It was not a FIST FIGHT, there was supposedly a BASEBALL BAT. If you want a demonstration of the difference, go to your favorite dive bar and provoke the meanest drunk you can find into a fight. Find someone to keep score. Give him a bat. Put up your dukes. I can assure you that hilarity will not ensure. Fist fights are one thing, someone trying to crush your skull with a weapon is another thing entirely.

    @86 wsbob, tony \”simpering\” t –

    You all are profoundly missing the point. Escalation isn\’t even part of the picture here. I consider it already escalated as far as it can go when someone tries to run me down in their car. They might as well be firing a gun at me. The potential outcomes for myself and passersby are THE SAME. The intent is THE SAME. The argument that a cyclist would escalate things by owning a firearm is totally absurd – she only improves her odds.

    If you want to take a more cynical bent, a cyclist getting shot is going to get someone thrown in jail for a long long time, a cyclist getting run down might maybe just perhaps-if-they-find-they-guy get him a citation. Perhaps calling a spade a spade is what is required in a society that doesn\’t recognize a vehicle as a lethal weapon. Yeah, the meek may inherit the earth, but it\’ll only be a 7\’ x 10\’ plot.

    All quasi-moral arguments aside, the facts are that citizens of Oregon are allowed to conceal a firearm on their person after attending classes and filing for permits. These citizens with few limitations can be anywhere, doing just about anything. The principal is that we all have a fundamental right to self-defense, and firearms are in the litany of weapons that are legally available to the general populace. Don\’t like it? Don\’t carry.

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  • Robert Dobbs January 25, 2008 at 11:10 am

    Agh, and finally and most importantly to those of you who get their impressions of gun owners from the movies and frothing gun-control advocates:

    You must satisfy four major requirements for use of force in a conflict. This is drilled into your head during the required Concealed-Carry training classes in Oregon:

    – Ability
    – Opportunity
    – Jeopardy
    – Preclusion

    The first three basically state that it has to be real clear that this guy is gonna put the hurt on your and he is able to do so.

    The last one is most important, and is ignored pretty regularly by the gun-control nuts in their arguments.

    Preclusion means that you have NO CHOICE but to use lethal force. In Oregon there is an exception for someone burglarizing a residence, but in all other cases, if you believe that you can escape, you MUST attempt to do so before using any sort of force to defend yourself. Period.

    Discretion is always the better part of valor, and no one wants to have to put their life OR their liberty on the line if they don\’t have to.

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  • a.O January 25, 2008 at 11:21 am

    So Robert Dobbs, are you done with the rationalizations for why it\’s OK for you to be carrying a deadly weapon? If not, feel free to stop now as we\’ve heard all this tired logic before. You just can\’t escape the simple fact: more guns = more deaths.

    Hope you don\’t kill someone, especially someone you\’re not aiming at!

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  • wsbob January 25, 2008 at 11:33 am

    Dobbs, some people really do have a legitimate reason to carry concealed weapons. As far as I\’m concerned, school teachers in classrooms (for example…remember that recent news story?), and cyclists riding on boutique streets like NW 23rd and Portland in general in the late afternoon, don\’t have a legitimate reason to carry concealed weapons.

    If they ever locate the royal blue H2 Hummer driver, I wonder what his excuse, or problem as it were, will turn out to be, or have been. That person obviously does not have the necessary temperament to safely drive a motor vehicle in traffic. He needs to be prohibited from operating a motor vehicle in traffic until he can demonstrate he has and can exercise the necessary temperament to safely operate a motor vehicle in traffic.

    Requiring such tests of driver competency is what we need to do to make streets safer, rather than to allow a social climate to develop where members of the public are generally encouraged to believe that they must be prepared to carry and use a concealed weapon at any given time of day. Something is very wrong when people are told they should consider bringing their piece when they go shopping or riding their bike on boutique street-NW 23rd Ave.

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  • steve January 25, 2008 at 11:34 am

    Perhaps our energies need to be realigned here.

    40,000 deaths on our streets every year from deadly weapons. Vehicles. Killing, maiming and destroying lives.

    Why are we not screaming about deadly weapons over on Tracy and Bretts threads?

    If I shot someone (oops, by accident!) in broad daylight I would be in deep shit. Regardless of intent.

    These drivers, not so much.

    So sorry, I did not see you! Oopsie!

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  • Robert Dobbs January 25, 2008 at 1:31 pm

    a.O #91

    More guns != More deaths. c.f. Canada, Switzerland, etc etc

    If I could wave a wand and wish all guns on the planet away, honestly I would. That includes the military and police. ESPECIALLY the police.

    I have drawn down on two occasions in my life. It was the most terrifying thing I\’ve ever had to do, and I truly felt I had no choice.

    In both occasions the situation was diffused *immediately*.

    In both occasions the police came later to clean up and I was not charged with a crime.

    On the first occasion it prevented someone from getting killed in a domestic violence situation. And for tonyt who had nothing better but to insinuate that I am a homophobic bigot in the other thread, it was a gay male who was pleading for help while his boyfriend was busy bashing his head in. I intervened and put myself in great jeopardy because I thought it was the Right Thing To Do.

    So take your moral high ground and shove it. The world can be a violent place and on rare occasion we need to defend ourselves in kind.

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  • Torfinn January 25, 2008 at 2:46 pm


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  • Shanana January 25, 2008 at 4:37 pm

    To Mr. Dobbs #83…

    The existence of gun control laws does not equate to the enforcement of them.

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  • Torfinn January 25, 2008 at 5:17 pm

    Shanana, this argument isn\’t about the enforcement of any GC laws, it\’s about one person wanting more laws(who happens to be a lawyer), while another person is suggesting that they should have the right to defend themself.

    We\’re all aware that a lack of enforcement does not help anything.

    However, part of the problem of living in a free country is, is that someone is not exactly going through my underwear drawer every day making sure whether or not there\’s something that shouldn\’t be in there.

    This laws only affect people who choose to obey laws. In which case, when someone is assaulting you, they\’re already not obeying laws.

    Given that, are you suggesting that a great amount of enforcement on the drug laws(which is inarguably a great waste of moneyz) are somehow keeping the streets clean of drugs?

    This is not logical.

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  • P. Lorenz January 25, 2008 at 6:35 pm

    Yes! A call to arms my sisters and brothers. Learn U-lock-fu. Pick up guns and carry knives… Lets escalate the animosity!

    If we are lucky we can expand this from a biker vs. motorist battle into the realm of a class war and then, a race war! Then we will all be united in our fear and hatred of each other.

    All we need is a few inexperienced marksmen with itchy trigger fingers to get it started.


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  • Liu January 25, 2008 at 10:12 pm

    I think the bottom line here is that we are responsible for our own personal safety. The police are truly not going to be there to save your hide when the dirty things hit the fan. How you choose to protect yourself is for the most part up to you (within reason).

    Two things need to be made clear:

    1. There\’s no reason a pistol can\’t be carried safely and securely while riding a bicycle, but how it\’s best deployed has to be learned and its limitations understood.

    2. An automobile is a lethal weapon. A softball bat is a lethal weapon. A handgun is a lethal weapon. If faced with the force of one you can defend with the force of another.

    This isn\’t to say that lethal force was necessary in the case in NW. The details don\’t seem clear enough yet.

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  • Torfinn January 26, 2008 at 3:39 pm

    P. Lorenz,

    defending yourself from an armed attacker does not = escalating violence.

    It\’s the simplest fastest approach to negate the violence and be certain no more of it occurs with your personal well being in mind.

    Noone is suggesting anything outside of self defense, your opinion is suggestive of a grandiose imagination.

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  • travis January 27, 2008 at 11:19 am

    i think alot of people carry guns for the same reason alot of people buy hummers….tryin to prove somethin or make up for somethin….

    also, mace is great self defense!!! just point it the right direction.

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  • zilfondel January 27, 2008 at 6:18 pm

    T-bird – jesus, I live RIGHT ON THAT CORNER. I was probably home and didn\’t even know there was an assault going on…

    dangerous intersection tho (28th and Stark). We already have one ghost bike nearby, we don\’t need another one. Ride safe and use helmets on that area, people… I see less than 1 out of 20 riders using them on 28th.

    We\’ve also had at least 3 or 4 cars stolen from in front of our house over the past year or so.

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  • WillJongIll January 28, 2008 at 12:25 am

    If I had a wand that would wish away all the guns in the world, I would too. I\’d also wish America into the zenith of egalitarian utopias and drinking fountains would dispense R.C. Cola and Jim Beam.

    As it stands, people unfortunately flip out sometimes and each of us, either pro-actively or after repeated close-encounters with said flipped out mf\’ers, need to find methods of protecting ourselves. There are many methods. One such method has been the object of thorough discussion because of its controversial nature. Other methods include mace, knives, u-locks, and polite requests.

    I suppose this discourse might yield sweeter fruit if we were discussing the societal changes in America that have everyone projecting their personal misery onto their fellow citizenry (what ever happened to hating foreigners?). Then the REAL solution ( I suppose ) would be to stop hating each other so much that we flip out when someone ever so gently disturbs our fragile sensibilities.

    We\’re all Americans: We\’re brothers and sisters. Why would we want to shoot our own brothers and sisters? Or beat our brothers and sisters to death with a bat? Aren\’t we all brave participants in this great social experiment in freedom known as the U.S. of A?!

    Which brings us back to the bourbon and soda dispensing water fountains… where are those? And why hasn\’t science genetically-engineered a flying horse already?

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  • WillJongIll January 28, 2008 at 12:33 am

    ok – I regret posting that. All those rhetorical questions scream: I\’m trying hard to be clever.

    My point was just: we should all try and love each other, get along, see past our differences, end the violence, etc. One exception being crazy people who flip out and want to kill you. They may be a fact of life until society rights itself, so it might be time to invest in Smith and Wesson. You\’re not continuing the cycle of violence if you\’re shooting Charles Manson as he\’s biting into your leg (in my opinion).

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  • Torfinn January 28, 2008 at 11:16 am

    The comment mace is great for self defense, obviously comes from someone who\’s never attempted to use it before in a self defense scenario, or been maced.

    Like I stated in an earlier thread working night club security I have been maced more than once and not really been stopped from taking said douchebag outside the hard way.

    Had I been wielding any kind of weapon with intent for harm the mace woulda been a laughable defense.

    Bear spray = better than mace.

    I\’m with WillJong, people need to learn to unite and stomp paying so much attention needlessly to the difrerences we all have so that we can move forward together as a race.

    The transition from here to there isn\’t going to be the easiest though and until then I\’ll take my personal protection and the protection of my loved ones seriously enough to deal with all perceivable threats accordingly.

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  • Shanana January 28, 2008 at 3:34 pm


    In post #97 you said \”Shanana, this argument isn\’t about the enforcement of any GC laws, it\’s about one person wanting more laws….\”

    You missed my point completely. I was not making any comments about \”this argument\”, I was commenting specifically on the claims made in post #83.

    Post #83 said that states with more gc laws have higher murder rates and states with fewer gc laws have lower murder rates.

    I was simply pointing out that one must consider the level of enforcement before making such a statement. The existence of gc laws does not necessarily drive the murder rate numbers up or down.

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  • RNL February 16, 2008 at 8:16 pm

    Did they find the guy?

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