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Owner of Hillsboro coffeehouse says "cyclists" have worn out welcome - UPDATED

Posted by Jonathan Maus (Publisher/Editor) on April 14th, 2011 at 2:05 pm

Anyone who has ridden regularly with a group or club knows the importance of a great, pre-ride meeting spot. For Portland Velo, a large cycling club based west of Forest Park, their "home base" since 2006 has been Longbottom Coffeehouse in Hillsboro. Over the years, Longbottom has become not just one of Portland Velo's sponsors, but a haven for folks looking for a great place to get caffeinated before hitting the many miles of rural roads nearby.

Unfortunately, members of Portland Velo recently found out that the owner of Longbottom isn't exactly thrilled about all the attention from the biking crowd. According to one club member, a sign has been posted on the front entrance that makes it clear where Longbottom stands...

That sign doesn't mince words. The groups of riders that frequent Longbottom — which can get as big as 100 people according to a commenter below — has clearly become an annoyance to owner Michael Baccellieri.

According to one Portland Velo member we heard from, "Apparently 'the cyclists' have become a problem."

Baccellieri reportedly discussed the issue with leaders of Portland Velo earlier this week and he told them they are not considered "regulars" and that it was complaints from those he does consider regulars that prompted the sign.

We've got a call into Baccellieri to learn more about what prompted these new rules — UPDATE: Read Baccellieri's response below.

Portland Velo director Kevin Rhea issued an email to members this morning calling for calm and reminding everyone to respect the rules. For the time being, the club plans to continue to meet at Longbottom, although a search for a new "home base" is underway.

Does your club/riding group have a meet-up location? If so, have you run into similar issues?

UPDATE, 4:01:
Reader Tomas Q. thinks this would have gone a lot smoother if the owner would have used different language in the poster...

By Tomas Quinones/Flickr

UPDATE, 4:37:
I just had a chat with the owner, Michael Baccellieri. Below are some of his comments:

What spurred these new rules?

"The last 2-3 weeks I've been getting barraged by non-cyclist customers that they are not coming in on the weekends anymore because of what's taking place with the cyclists. I talked with my managers and they concurred."

Some people say you have unfairly singled out "cyclists." Is that fair?

"It's not grandmothers that are doign this stuff. It's people wearing tights, wearing cleats, parking in the front and being obnoxious... It's not Intel engineers, these are cyclists. Back in the '50s and '60s my parents immigrated here from Italy. When I was a kid, everyone thought I was part of the "Cosa Nostra" crime family... The Mafia happened to be Italian so it gives us all a bad name... Thing is, this may be a handful of cyclists, but they're cyclists."
We want to accomodate everyone, but I draw the line when people are abusing property or other people. I don't give a shit if they're dropping hundreds of dollars.

I want the cyclists to continue to come, but we need people to respect the property, parking and the other customers, period. That's all.

Some people have called to say they are offended. To them, I say sorry you have thin skin. Did you do this stuff? I ask. If not, than you shouldn't be offended... It's like the cyclists that ride 3-4 abreast and don't use the bike lanes — and they wonder why people are pissed off on the roads... It's sad, they're wrecking it for everyone."

Are there specific situations where people who ride bikes abused your property or other customers?

"... Some are obnoxious, there will be a line up of cars and they'll put there bikes out in the parking lot and then a group of them will be on their bicycles and they will just kind of plug up the whole entrance of the parking area... People can't get in or come out! People ask them to move and they just ignore them... They'll loiter around both entrance ways and just plug the doors. People are trying to get in and they just refuse to move. It's obnoxious... Sometimes they can be very short or curt about ordering and demanding things... Then if they do come in, in a group of 10 or 20, they'll grab the tables, put them all together and they're very loud... The thing that really turns my prop, is that I've got artwork on my floor that I've had to repaint. We tell them to take off their cleats to not damage the floors and they just refuse to do it."

"You can't be a successful, self-employed businessman without loving people. I love those guys, i just don't like people that are being mean or obnoxious, it doesn't matter who it is."

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Comments
  • Julie April 14, 2011 at 2:11 pm

    When I've seen this happen in other locations, it's usually less about 'complaints from other regulars' and more about 'large group where most of group does not spend any money in coffee shop.'

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    • rider April 14, 2011 at 2:45 pm

      That's my first thought too, the owner was tired of their establishment being full of large groups of non-customers. Though I will say this is a pretty passive aggressive and poor way to handle the situation. Would have been a better business move to talk to the ride leaders about the business concerns.

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      • bustamove April 18, 2011 at 10:02 pm

        First thing, this is not passive/aggressive, the guy put his thoughts and feelings out there - in writing. Nothing passive there. Second, he talked with the leaders of Portland Velo. Give the guy the credit he deserves for putting up with our sometimes clueless, sometimes downright rude buddies. He's right. We're too often wrong.

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    • Unknown April 14, 2011 at 5:06 pm

      Cyclists are amusing, thinking they have the right of way all the time, cycling slowly/lazily down the middle of the road as if they're a car while holding up traffic. Noisily trompsing through cafes and restaurants as if they own the place. I've seen groups at other coffee shops where half order a beverage, the other half ask for a glass of water, spending barely any money and loitering for hours. When I see them, I turn on my heel and leave. Then they hop right back out into the streets to terrorize the road. I love how they think they're above all traffic laws and then freak out when they're cutting through traffic and get nicked by a car. They have NO respect, none. I'm on the side of the cafe owner for sure, there's nothing wrong with the sign. @Opus the Poet, "Potential legal action", omg are you serious?? Have you ever heard of "we have the right to refuse service to anyone"? Racism is a far cry from asking a group of cyclists to have some respect, that's really cute that you said that though. :)

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      • Hart Noecker April 14, 2011 at 10:38 pm

        Everything you just typed was made up non-sense. You don't know any cyclists, and you don't even have the courage to post your name. You live in the cycling capitol of North America. Don't like it? Atlanta might suit you better.

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        • A.K. April 14, 2011 at 11:14 pm

          ... or Houston...

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          • Hart Noecker April 15, 2011 at 1:39 am

            God, Houston. They still feed food to children on styrofoam there.

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          • Laura April 16, 2011 at 9:13 pm

            Houston has some of the most badass cyclists I've ever ridden with. They deal with real abuse and love the hell out of their city anyhow. I love and was born in Oregon but I hate its tendency towards elitism. Sigh.

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    • Mike Fish April 14, 2011 at 11:02 pm

      Yeah, but I can't believe he cited 'wearing tights' as a problem!!!!

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      • Mabsf April 15, 2011 at 9:01 am

        Hi mike,
        I an understand that problem: it's not always pleasant to talk to person whose pants seemed to have come out of a spray can...

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        • Mike Fish April 15, 2011 at 12:29 pm

          Fashion police! The should probably enforce a dress code - no shirts that show belly buttons, no pants that sag, no sandals if you have ugly feet, and if you have an ugly face wear a bag over your head. Sound about right?

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      • She April 17, 2011 at 5:26 pm

        I think the tights was an identifier of who they were not the offense...

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  • James April 14, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    Wow, what a surprise...someone got sick of the arrogance of Portland bicyclists! Don't get me wrong, I ride all of the time but by myself because I can't stand the attitude and law breaking of groups here. Don't be shocked if more businesses do the same.

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    • A.K. April 14, 2011 at 2:48 pm

      If you've ever ridden with Portland Velo, then you'd know that they stress being respectful, following laws and road signs, and being curious community members. Every ride I've ever been on had followed all road rules, including stop lights - even if that means breaking up the paceline and regrouping.

      Though, I'm sure it's easier to ride by yourself and throw around generalizations.

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      • sabernar April 14, 2011 at 4:25 pm

        They all stop at all stop signs? Something tells me, no, they don't.

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        • shirtsoff April 15, 2011 at 12:13 am

          Something tells me, yes, they do.

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          • Carl April 15, 2011 at 3:02 pm

            Something tells me that stop signs have no place in this conversation...kind of like how ARTWORK has no place on the FLOOR of one's cafe.

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    • velowocky April 14, 2011 at 2:48 pm

      Nothing like generalized trash talking about fellow cyclists. I didn't see anywhere in the article that stated anything about 'arrogance' or 'attitude' that you refer to. Do you know this group personally? I do. And they are more experienced and thoughtful than most road users (in a group or 'by yourself').

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    • Peter Noone April 14, 2011 at 2:59 pm

      You know you're lumped in with this same crowd, right? A lot of people can't tell the difference between one cyclist and another. There are people that literally hate you because you ride a bike and for no other reason--because they lump you into some group based on some arbitrary criteria.

      Really, how can you reasonably ascribe group intent to thousands of *individuals* acting with varying motivations? That sounds kind of arrogant and self righteous to me (besides being logically flawed).

      And what do you know about this group in particular? I would guess that they are reasonably courteous based on anecdotal evidence, but perhaps they didn't realize they were causing a problem.

      Regardless, even if they were/are rude, is it really because they're cyclists, or is perhaps just because they're people?

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    • Brian April 14, 2011 at 6:42 pm

      Sure, I won't get you wrong. You might have bicycle in your garage, just like everybody who shits and says "i am an avid cyclist but..."

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  • Steve B April 14, 2011 at 2:25 pm

    I respect the business owner's needs here, I am unfamiliar with the scene at the actual venue, but this seems ripe for another venue to come in and swoop up all this business, by welcoming cyclists with respect instead of treating them like a bunch of hooligans.

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    • sabernar April 14, 2011 at 4:26 pm

      You're assuming that the riders give the shop a decent amount of business. How many of the riders spend money, and how many loiter?

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  • Tomas Quinones April 14, 2011 at 2:32 pm

    I'll make sure the Oregon Randonneurs no longer use this location as a check point. This will certainly move hundreds of dollars a single group of cyclists can bring to a location in a day.

    We'll go find some other establishment terrorize with out law-scoffing ways.

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    • joel April 14, 2011 at 5:52 pm

      honestly, as an oregon rando myself, and having observed plenty of cyclists of all stripes at these types of locations, my opinion is that the owner has basically called "us" (that being "cyclists" aka "the subset of cyclists that i see, which i extrapolate to represent all cyclists") out on what i consider the standard m.o. of large-ish groups of bike riders stopping at cafes. we park our bikes wherever we damn well please regardless of signage or thoughts for pedestrian traffic flow; we loiter in the parking lot; we cork the entrance to the place; we dont spend nearly as much money or tip as well as we think we do; we descend like a swarm of locusts with gnashing metal feet; and we act indignant whenever anyone calls us on any of this. of course *i* dont do any of these things (sarcasm alert!), but "WE" do, and its NOT a portland thing, its near-universal (in my experience). is a variable-but-mostly-consistent group of people who come in once a week and leave a group of "regulars"? paradoxical as it might sound, i dont think so. regulars come in daily, or maybe 3-4 times a week.

      i dont think were talking about a few bad apples - every one of the considerable number of times ive popped by longbottom and there was a large group of cyclists there, ive observed exactly what hes describing.

      but frankly, i was never much keen on stopping for coffee in a light industrial area parking lot anyhow.

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      • Antload April 14, 2011 at 10:05 pm

        Thanks Joel, you just saved me a lot of time. All I have to say is: that's my experience too! I love me some fellow cyclists, but an unfortunate trend undeniably exists.

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      • Carl April 15, 2011 at 3:03 pm

        Well said.

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    • Susan Otcenas April 18, 2011 at 8:26 am

      Well Tomas, you're welcome to do that on any ride ORRando ride you organize, but I think you should speak for yourself, and not the group as a whole.

      Frankly, I agree with much of what Joel has written. An awful lot of those PV folks filling up Longbottom's parking lot are not doing anything other than taking up space (and using the toilet facilities) at a private establishment that has PAYING customers who might like to use the parking lot and bathrooms themselves.

      Susan

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  • BK April 14, 2011 at 2:39 pm

    Everything around it is corporate/Starbucks. There is a Pete's Coffee @ 19250 Northwest Cornell Road, Hillsboro, OR and Insomnia Coffee @ 5389 West Baseline Road, Hillsboro, OR

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    • Editz April 15, 2011 at 11:18 am

      Heh. What kind of non-corporate bike do you ride?

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  • Bill April 14, 2011 at 2:40 pm

    I work right around the corner from Longbottom's. While I've only been on two Portland Velo rides in the past, I eat there often for lunch.

    No more...

    --Bill

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    • Mike Fish April 14, 2011 at 11:04 pm

      Good call! Time to boycott!

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      • colin April 15, 2011 at 8:39 am

        Baccellieri has problems with a group of cyclists, they're all cyclists that cause these problems but his sign may have suggested to some that he has a problem with all cyclists. I don't think this is the case. He's just asking for some respect of his establishment and calling out the group responsible. He may have handled it better but if these cyclists are behaving as he and his other customers have described then something needed to be done. Baccellieri doesn't have to cater to any and every customer regardless of how they treat him, his establishment, and other customers. tldr; BE RESPECTFUL.

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        • Mike Fish April 15, 2011 at 12:31 pm

          That's right - he can do whatever he wants and so can cyclists. The Velo group is relocating - they cancelled there ride this week so that they could find a new meeting spot. I honestly believe that was what he wanted. How could he have expected anything else after posting that sign?

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          • colin April 15, 2011 at 1:20 pm

            In terms of being respectful it's not about doing whatever you want. Sure they can go into his establishment and be rude, block the way, scratch up the artwork on the floor, and be generally disrespectful. However just being able to do something is not an excuse to be a jerk or to not be mindful of others. As a group that is centered around cycling that sort of behavior gives those who are either indifferent or opposed to cyclists another example to point to and to reinforce preexisting negative stereotypes. Baccellieri stated that he wants their business, but not their attitude. So boycott but don't bring that behavior elsewhere and be surprised if the owner responds in a similar way.

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  • Brian E. April 14, 2011 at 2:41 pm

    Well the Yin to this Yang-

    The Cruise In Country Diner has a sign on the wall welcoming cyclist. They are located at the intersection of Farmington and River Rd. Great Milkshakes and fries!

    They grabbed my curiosity with the bike the permanently mounted on the outside wall of the building.

    This place used to be the Twin Oaks Tavern. It's a lot more friendly now.

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  • Brad April 14, 2011 at 2:42 pm

    I'll break it down from first hand observation:

    Each Saturday morning, 50-200 riders show up. The majority drive to the ride, park, and unload their bikes in the Longbottom lot and surrounding spots. 50-75% enter the coffeehouse to use the restrooms, fill water bottles, or stay warm before embarking. Only about 5% spend money.

    After the ride, about 20-30 riders will take over roughly 50% of the tables in the place during the lunch rush. Longbottom doesn't have table service so customer's line up to order food at the counter. While they wait to order, the riders come in and swarm the available seating. Most of those riders then buy just coffee, eat the Clif Bars from their jersey pockets, and mill around for 30-60 minutes. The majority will again queue up to use the restrooms and leave without spending money.

    The non-cycling patrons have to endure a cacophony of cleats clapping and scraping on the painted concrete floors and a wave of loud sweaty, stinky folks just back from a three hour ride.

    Julie has it right - the club uses a lot of Longbottom's resources without making it financially worthwhile for the ownership. They're not bad people by any stretch - just a bit cheap and oblivious to their surroundings. This is one of those situations where they simply wore out their welcome.

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    • jeff April 14, 2011 at 2:53 pm

      I've seen it. Brads' got it. I don't blame Longbottom whatsoever. The sign doesn't say they can't be there, it just sets some ground rules. Seems like a reasonable way to deal with the situation...talking to PV's "leadership" won't do a thing...its an open ride, anyone can attend. These rides can start anywhere, I've never understood the obsession with coffee shops.

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      • fatmidwesternwhiteguy April 16, 2011 at 12:53 pm

        Don't get the connection between coffee shops and group rides? Come on! It's like beer and pizza, wine and cheese, steak and eggs, baseball and apple pie. An ice cold pils on a hot summer night...t-shirts and blue jeans, coffee shops and bike rides. I don't get how you don't get it. ;)

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    • Canuck April 14, 2011 at 3:37 pm

      A perfect description of a Portland Velo ride and aftermath.

      Longbottom's has been a great supporter of Portland Velo. The club only offers the one ride starting from the same location every Saturday. The club has grown and it is not unusual to see 100 people on the ride. There just isn't the space to handle all the cars from PV and allow patrons to park nearby without this restriction. The space inside the store is limited, and can't handle the traffic without generating revenue..

      Sometimes we need to see the other person's point of view.

      Retail is a tough business, and particularly the food industry, you have to turn those seats over.

      Would you prefer they go out of business? From many of the comments posted here I guess people would like to see it happen.

      Sad.

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      • Mike Fish April 14, 2011 at 11:07 pm

        Oh please, to even suggest that a group of cyclists are conspiring to put people out of business is just pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

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        • canuck April 15, 2011 at 5:52 am

          Count the comments regarding, "some one else swooping in and taking the business", "there coffee sucks", "I'll never go there again" etc etc etc.

          It all sounds like people who want to hurt this business.

          A knee jerk reaction because a business owner dares to stand up and say, a certain group is not good for his business.

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          • Mike Fish April 15, 2011 at 12:39 pm

            You need to get the order of events straight.

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    • Paul in the 'couve April 14, 2011 at 3:45 pm

      I've not been there, so I can only compare to my own experience with other ride locations over the years. What I've seen often does match the description above. I don't blame the business for getting frustrated, and I'd prefer people not just boycott, but rather engage the owner.

      I'm guessing he doesn't know how many of those riders do come back at other times during the week, or how many customers first discovered his shop because of riding. Nor is he probably aware of how many casual, mid week cyclists might pass him by because they find the sign unwelcoming.

      However, he probably has some legitimate complaints that we in the cycling community should try to cooperate with Baccellieri to make the situation better for everyone. I can see why Baccellieri' might be concerned. He may see customers pulling up and leaving without entering because of the crowd. He may see customers getting in line, chekcing their watch and leaving. He's probably had comments from customers. He may have a very reasonable idea of how much business he is losing due to the cycling crowd.

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    • Mike Fish April 14, 2011 at 11:27 pm

      "Most of those riders then buy just coffee."

      I think if i buy coffee at a coffeeshop I have a right to sit down at a table and use the toilet if need it. Don't be ridiculous.

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  • Ed April 14, 2011 at 2:48 pm

    Longbottom coffee sucks anyways. And all of their food is over priced.

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    • matt picio April 14, 2011 at 9:50 pm

      You've just described 90% of the coffeeshops, pubs and restaurants in Portland. X sucks and the food is overpriced. If you've only tried it once, then you don't know for sure, and if you've been there a lot and it consistently sucks, then obviously there is a reason you continually buy the coffee.

      The comments above as to the majority of the ride attendees not purchasing something from Longbottom sounds a lot like many bike events I've been to (and many non-bike events as well). Many cyclists simply don't pay attention to the fact that they are spread all over the parking lot, blocking cars who just want to get through. (we've had this happen on some of the larger Cycle Wild rides, too) It's hard to get folks to pay attention, and this group is obviously affecting Longbottom's business in a negative way. The owner has every right to ask them to respect the rules. Tomas is right - it could have been said a lot more diplomatically, but if you don't like the way he's handling it, don't go there' Odds are most of the people reading this have never been to Longbottom and never plan to go. I've never been, and I work in Hillsboro.

      I hope the owner decides to tone down the poster a bit, but I certainly don't blame him for standing up for his rights as a business owner.

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      • Mike Fish April 14, 2011 at 11:08 pm

        It's not just the poster - even his comments to Maus showed that he really didn't care for us 'tights' wearing types.

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        • Hart Noecker April 15, 2011 at 1:41 am

          His comments showed his anger had little to do with his business and everything to do with whatever insecurity he has in his life that he has chosen to vent out against a group of people he knows are freer than he will ever be.

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          • snapbrim April 15, 2011 at 10:11 am

            I guess there's room for interpretation, then, because it seemed to me his comments had everything to do with his business, even if they do reveal some bias on his part against fancypants cycleheroes.

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  • bobcycle April 14, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    I'm curious if the owner contacted the velo group first to communicate his needs or if the sign was the first indicator that the "relationship" was no longer working. Doesn't seem like he should be pissing off customers in these economic times. Maybe the group didn't spend enough $$ to make it worth while or maybe he just has a problem with cyclists in general. It's not like some cyclists don't anger some people by their actions but that sign is directed at all cyclists not just the "bad guys". No cleats??? Some cleats are recessed. I don't see Velo riders carrying extra shoes on their rides so essentially he's asking them not to come in. Good to know. Thanks Jonathan for getting good cyclist related news out there.

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    • MDS April 15, 2011 at 8:52 am

      Yes, the club has known and announces OFTEN that cleats have not been allowed in the business because of the damage to floors. Some INDIVIDUALS violate that, hence the escallation. I happen to know the owner, and he is a guy trying to help his business thrive. He also doesn't have a problem with cyclists who act like reasonable customers and have respect for his property. Having cyclists interfere with customer access and hogging tables/restrooms has much more impact on a small business than the violators realize. The calls for a boycott are unwarranted. We are GUESTS there!

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  • Wayne Myer April 14, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    I'm happy to know that Longbottom's prefers I take my money elsewhere, such as to one of the many other coffee shops that make a point to welcome cyclists and the associated quirks.

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  • Bob_M April 14, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    It is probably not about cleats, or arrogance or cyclists not spending money. Think about it people, lycra clad cyclists with they packages on display just make people uncomfortable.

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    • James Crawford April 15, 2011 at 8:41 am

      What "package". Most of you guys are hung like a hamster.

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  • Tomas Quinones April 14, 2011 at 3:11 pm

    I'm sorry, my last comment was too harsh. I wish I could edit or delete it. So, rather than cause more conflict or stir hate, I wish to HELP by providing a SOLUTION.

    Perhaps they can amend their sign like this?
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomascosauce/5619864761/in/photostream

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    • BikeChick April 14, 2011 at 3:55 pm

      Tomas, I am completely on board with your recommended sign! Much more pleasant and not so segregating.

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  • Tomas Quinones April 14, 2011 at 3:18 pm

    Dearest roadies, if you must go into an establishment that is not carpeted, would it kill you to bring a set of cleat covers?
    http://www.universalcycles.com/search.php?q=cleat+covers

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    • Mabsf April 15, 2011 at 9:09 am

      About the cleats: that might not even come from the coffeehouse owner, but his landlord.... Gauges and refinishing floors can be very pricey...

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  • Mark C April 14, 2011 at 3:33 pm

    As a member of Portland Velo who regularly attends the Saturday Ride, I think a big issue with the owner is the cleats on his precious hand-painted floors. We've heard about that before.

    I usually either ride out there (from NE PDX) or take MAX, so requiring street shoes essentially shuts me out, not that I have any intention of eating there again anyway. I figure I've spent $500 give-or-take on food there the past few years. I guess some other establishment will now be getting my business.

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    • snapbrim April 15, 2011 at 10:22 am

      So, you're saying that it's not within your power to carry a change of shoes or cleat covers? I don't know about you, but I don't wear my cleats in the house. Wanna know why? Because it fucks up the floors. Being a paying customer at a coffeeshop doesn't give me the right to tear the place up any more than paying bus fare entitles me to carve my name in the seats.

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    • colin April 15, 2011 at 1:55 pm

      That's an extremely self centered position to take. Just because you don't feel like bringing shoes that don't damage his floor means you should be able to damage his floor without him complaining? Take a moment and try to picture the situation from the coffee shop owner's perspective.

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  • Michweek April 14, 2011 at 3:34 pm

    Being that the only way I get to Hillsboro is by bike, I now know that I cannot patronize this establishment due to wearing cleated shoes.
    Good thing there are plenty of better coffee shops I can attend.

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  • Lynne April 14, 2011 at 3:40 pm

    PV member here. One that buys a full meal after each ride, and generally sits at a table with at least 6 other riders who do the same. Also one that rides 10+ miles to the ride, and does not carry extra shoes. Or take up a parking space. And has MTB shoes w/recessed cleats and does NOT step on the floor paintings. And leaves a tip. No more.

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    • MDS April 15, 2011 at 8:54 am

      Learn to carry cleat covers... They are light and easy to put on and take off, yet won't destory the floors.

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      • Duncan April 18, 2011 at 5:18 am

        I didnt know they made cleat covers- (I bike on flats) maybe the owner doesnt either.

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  • CaptainKarma April 14, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    A lot of people wear lycra that really shouldn't if ya know what I mean. And what Bob_M said, that's a fact, Jack. Spandex & lycra space aliens really alienate the general public.

    If rides of more than a few meet at a commercial establishment, each individual should buy something and leave a two dollar (minimum) tip, like a cover charge. Or take up a collective tip. And park on the street. Just manners in general.

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    • A.K. April 14, 2011 at 4:04 pm

      What's the deal with bagging on lycra? It's funny how people obsess about what others feel like wearing.

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  • bobcycle April 14, 2011 at 3:48 pm

    SO maybe Longbottoms can take a tip from this place which is about 20 miles north of Manhatten's GW Bridge on the Hudson River. They get 100+ bicyclists at a time on any given weekend. (Hope the link takes)
    http://nyack.patch.com/articles/meet-me-at-the-spoon-a-look-at-cycling-in-nyack#video-2526376

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  • Opus the Poet April 14, 2011 at 3:48 pm

    OK right off the bat I see a problem as in potential legal action: "Any cyclist group of six or more..." (emphasis mine) is discriminatory against a particular group of people (cyclists). Had they worded it "Any group of six or more..." then it would pass legal muster and not be discriminatory. Substitute Mexican or Black for Cyclist and you'll see what I mean.

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    • rider April 14, 2011 at 3:55 pm

      Cyclists aren't a protected class.

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    • Ed April 14, 2011 at 4:11 pm

      Give me a break. I can't imagine anything more completely different.

      This is a problem that a tiny little bit of consideration will resolve.

      If some customers are using up all the parking and tables and bikes are everywhere but they aren't necessarily buying a ton of stuff, that really is a problem if you're trying to run a coffee shop. The flyer is a little strange but I think what they're asking for is reasonable.

      The trick when meeting at a business or borrowing their bathroom etc. is to make sure to be polite and buy a thing or two unless you're utterly broke.

      You can also meet at places like public parks which have water and facilities, and picnic tables to hang out at but are not commercial businesses.

      Ed

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  • Loren April 14, 2011 at 4:04 pm

    Cycling Clubs! Support your local coffee shop by going to Starbucks! I'm dead serious. While cycling with a large group can be fun, really, it just pisses everyone else off. Not exacly an image improver. The blown stop signs, the three abreast riders, the coffee shop mob.... Been there, done that, I'll ride with a few friends thank you.

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  • Argentius April 14, 2011 at 4:16 pm

    One of the things that has surprised me the most about adulthood is people's failure to communicate.

    That's the only issue here atmo -- not the floors, or the cleats, or anything else.

    Listen folks, we are talking about ONE small local business, and a group of OVER ONE HUNDRED individuals that occasionally descends upon it -- is that right?

    One would think that some of the leaders of that group, and, the owner of the business, would NECESSARILY need to talk, both at the outset of the relationship, and, from time to time, to come to terms with the best way to run things.

    It seems to simple, and, yet, this is far from the only failure in communication I have seen.

    It makes me curious. This really could be a mutually beneficial arrangement.

    Simple example distilled from the above: An understood minimum purchase of $3, or $5, if one used the facilities at longbottom.

    An obligation to use cleat covers if wearing road shoes.

    Wouldn't that be nice?

    As to the "package" comments above -- sheesh, get over it.

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  • Bjorn April 14, 2011 at 4:34 pm

    Reminds me of an interaction I witnessed between a friend who owned part of a bar in Corvallis and the 25-30 people who wanted it to become a place for swing dancing one night a week. The girl was adamant that they were doing the club a favor because they were bringing 25-30 people into place on a tuesday night. Except that the regulars didn't like swing music and my friend tried to explain to her that the 25-30 people she was bringing in were buying less than 20 dollars worth of drinks meaning that if they drove 2 people off it was costing him money... It sounds like some folks are purchasing things from the shop but I'd wager many aren't. Also the owner may have tried to engage with the ride, but when 100 people come in on a day he doesn't work normally how is he supposed to know who to talk to. I doubt there is really any one person who speaks for/has control over the behavior of the whole mob. If there is a leader, then he gave out his phone number and times when he was available and that leader should call him.

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  • eddie April 14, 2011 at 4:49 pm

    I'm originally from Marin County, CA, the birthplace of mountain biking. There's a similar situation in the town of Fairfax, on the edge of Mt. Tamalpais State Park and some amazing coastal road biking. Hundreds of cyclists hit town every weekend and holliday, and they all like to congregate in one place before the ride.

    There someone came up with a great idea: they opened up a cafe/brew pub with lots of open space inside, a whole wall of bike racks, cement floors, good coffee, good beer, and a place for kids to play when rides weren't on. The place is catered specifically to the hordes of bicyclists who descend on Fairfax every week, as well as the parents who need somewhere to chill with beer/coffee as their kids have play dates on weekdays.

    Sounds like Hillsboro needs something like that. I bet it would work just as well there .

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  • Jonathan Maus (Publisher/Editor) April 14, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    I just had a chat with the owner, Michael Baccellieri. Below are some of his comments:

    What spurred these new rules?

    "The last 2-3 weeks I've been getting barraged by non-cyclist customers that they are not coming in on the weekends anymore because of what's taking place with the cyclists. I talked with my managers and they concurred."

    Some people say you have unfairly singled out "cyclists." Is that fair?

    "It's not grandmothers that are doign this stuff. It's people wearing tights, wearing cleats, parking in the front and being obnoxious... It's not Intel engineers, these are cyclists. Back in the '50s and '60s my parents immigrated here from Italy. When I was a kid, everyone thought I was part of the "Cosa Nostra" crime family... The Mafia happened to be Italian so it gives us all a bad name... Thing is, this may be a handful of cyclists, but they're cyclists."
    We want to accomodate everyone, but I draw the line when people are abusing property or other people. I don't give a shit if they're dropping hundreds of dollars.

    I want the cyclists to continue to come, but we need people to respect the property, parking and the other customers, period. That's all.

    Some people have called to say they are offended. To them, I say sorry you have thin skin. Did you do this stuff? I ask. If not, than you shouldn't be offended... It's like the cyclists that ride 3-4 abreast and don't use the bike lanes — and they wonder why people are pissed off on the roads... It's sad, they're wrecking it for everyone."

    Are there specific situations where people who ride bikes abused your property or other customers?

    "... Some are obnoxious, there will be a line up of cars and they'll put there bikes out in the parking lot and then a group of them will be on their bicycles and they will just kind of plug up the whole entrance of the parking area... People can't get in or come out! People ask them to move and they just ignore them... They'll loiter around both entrance ways and just plug the doors. People are trying to get in and they just refuse to move. It's obnoxious... Sometimes they can be very short or curt about ordering and demanding things... Then if they do come in, in a group of 10 or 20, they'll grab the tables, put them all together and they're very loud... The thing that really turns my prop, is that I've got artwork on my floor that I've had to repaint. We tell them to take off their cleats to not damage the floors and they just refuse to do it."

    "You can't be a successful, self-employed businessman without loving people. I love those guys, i just don't like people that are being mean or obnoxious, it doesn't matter who it is."

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    • Nick April 14, 2011 at 5:00 pm

      Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

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      • Perry Hunter April 15, 2011 at 8:15 am

        I'd use the word "amateur".

        "Welcome to our business, please help us serve you and our other customers better by..." works a lot better at changing behavior and improving the bottom line than "I don't give a shit".

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  • S brockway April 14, 2011 at 4:54 pm

    Since Longbottom's knows exactly when PV is coming it seems like a great chance to increase revenue with some "road snacks"(wrapped not "packaged"for jersey pocket) for sale,large igloo cooler of water with Tip jar, and maybe a carpet runner!! Heck... you could partner
    with PV and make a win win deal out of this, without
    much effort or expense.I know of several other coffee
    houses trying to get more customer traffic while not
    spending more on the advertising budget.

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  • Brian April 14, 2011 at 4:55 pm

    @Bjorn

    Actually, there is a single person to talk to at the club. The owner and the club do talk, however, you know there is a problem when the first the club hears of a change in policy is through a blog.

    It's fine. We'll leave. The coffee shop was a nice treat after a ride, but if they were having a problem with us being there, we'll go. But to be passive aggressive like this, to post a sign that essentially bars all of us from coming into the coffeeshop, that's just rude. The club has grown over the last four or five years. No denying that. We have probably outgrown our meeting spot. Fine. There are less rude ways of parting company than to just post a KEEP OUT sign on the door.

    I understand the business aspects and even sympathize with the owner. But this was just a truly disrespectful way of handling the situation. We will find another meeting spot, and it's pretty likely I will never eat or drink at that coffee shop again, as it is off my normal routes and in the middle of a corporate business park to boot. It's too bad... they had good food and decent coffee.

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    • Dwight April 14, 2011 at 6:24 pm

      I think you need to read the sign a couple of times. He's not telling you "KEEP OUT." He's asking for cyclists to be more courteous and respectful of his place and his regular customers. He could have done a better job communicating this with his sign, but certainly he's not telling to get lost.

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    • Bjorn April 14, 2011 at 6:32 pm

      Did you find out from a blog or from the sign, your post says both but it must have been one or the other. If there is a club leader who can actually control the behavior of the club as a whole then call, that is why a number was included on the flyer. If the owner has talked to the club leader but the behavior hasn't improved and is as he describes then it seems pretty understandable why he felt the need to create some stricter rules.

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    • are April 14, 2011 at 6:32 pm

      seems to me if you are bringing a couple hundred people onto someone's private parking lot and taking over his tables and using his restrooms completely out of proportion to how much cash you are putting into his register and maybe even keeping other potential customers out, the responsibility is on you to initiate the conversation, and if you don't, you can expect this kind of response.

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      • B-Rat (formerly Brian) April 14, 2011 at 9:50 pm

        I am not sure what you are talking about. It's not like we are just some random club that piled into the parking lot of a random coffeeshop. They've been our club sponsor for years now. We acknowledge them on our jersey and their contribution is the use of their parking lot as a staging ground. It has seemed to work well up till this year. Apparently the relationship has soured.

        I am not sure what he is talking about us not being regulars. We have been there almost every Saturday for the last five or six years.

        My guess is that business, like with all the restaurants around here, has dropped in this recession. That, along with our club growth, has lead to this sudden souring. By the response, the owner is pissed. His sudden hostility has made us pissed, so everyone is pissed. We'll go elsewhere. He'll have a little more or a little less business every Saturday, depending on how the cards fall, and we'll all go about our business.

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  • jram April 14, 2011 at 5:09 pm

    .. It's like the cyclists that ride 3-4 abreast and don't use the bike lanes — and they wonder why people are pissed off on the roads... It's sad, they're wrecking it for everyone.

    I was thinking to myself "if we could hear the owners side of things, he was probably being as reasonable as possible". maybe not. I definitely see where he is coming from with the issues in his shop, but his response doesn't make him sound like the friendly coffee shop owner. and what does his business issues have to do with people not using the bike lanes? sounds like he was just ready to unload in general.

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    • Brian April 14, 2011 at 5:30 pm

      I disagree. Seems to me he is just tired of people who can't be bothered to share the road or the coffee shop. I'm love to ride. But I also drive and I get pissed at riders who take the lane and proceed at a snails pace and never get over. I see his point.

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      • Mike Fish April 14, 2011 at 11:17 pm

        He's also bothered by people wearing spandex for crying out loud.

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    • A.K. April 14, 2011 at 5:30 pm

      Yeah, I totally get where the owner is coming from, and I can sympathize with him wanting to make the environment better for all his customers, and prevent wear+tear on his shop - but man that guy needs a communication lesson. It's not about people having "thin skins" and being offending by his new message, it's about wording things in a constructive manner that doesn't make you look like a complete jerk while potentially alienating a lot of people and generating bad press (which will probably pop up in Google soon when people do a search for his business).

      Perhaps he'll get more customers without cyclists there, that's his decision to make and if it helps his business, then it's probably the right one. I think it could have been handled better, though.

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    • matt picio April 14, 2011 at 9:56 pm

      I don't think so - I think he was trying to couch his reply in terms he thinks cyclists will understand - it's an analogy, and if the choice of analogy is poor, that doesn't necessarily mean that he has an anti-cyclist bias in general. You'd need 1 or more additional instances to legitimately support that conclusion.

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  • dwainedibbly April 14, 2011 at 5:11 pm

    Unfortunate in many ways. Unfortunate wording and tone of the sign. Unfortunate that the owner didn't talk to the club leaders. Unfortunate that the club didn't consider their impact on the business. And unfortunate that the owner is willing to risk the loss of business (from club members after rides as well as during the rest of the week) in these difficult economic time.

    This story begs for a follow-up in a few months.

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  • Jake April 14, 2011 at 5:32 pm

    I wish I had been a regular customer of this place, just so I could stop going.

    Seems to me there were lots of ways this could've been handled and he chose the worst possible way. I, too, was hoping his side of this story would be reasonable, but it sounds like he's overreacting to the bad apples.

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    • Mike Fish April 14, 2011 at 11:19 pm

      You can still give them a bad review on google maps...

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  • B-Rat April 14, 2011 at 5:45 pm

    BTW, I am the "Brian" of 4:55pm - I've changed my handle to make the distinction. The "Brian" of 5:30 is a different "Brian". I share some of his opinion, but not all of it.

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  • S brockway April 14, 2011 at 5:54 pm

    Mr.Baccellieri,
    A little less "Cosa Nostra"and lot more Fausto Coppi...

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    • Steve April 15, 2011 at 10:24 am

      Like!

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  • velo April 14, 2011 at 6:00 pm

    A couple thought, it sounds to me like the owner had a legit business problem and then proceeded to be a jerk about it. He also doesn't make himself sound much better from his comments when J.M. talked to him. So, poor communication by the owner and obliviousness by a few people on bikes.

    Perhaps other bicycle friendly businesses should request that all car drives with parties more then 6 people call ahead. It's ridiculous and stupid in my mind the way the owner tried to deal with it by posting a sign singling a group out. It's his business though and if he wants cyclists to spend money else where then so be it. Or, Portland Velo should show up next week with skateboards.

    1) roadies - get some create covers. 2) commercial establishment - get a durable floor. Floor problem solved. My contribution towards a solution is made.

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    • matt picio April 14, 2011 at 9:58 pm

      Your solution to the floor issue is for the owner to spend thousands of dollars? Nearly every other sport wears shoes with rubber soles. What's wrong with the cleat cover suggestion?

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      • velo April 17, 2011 at 4:26 pm

        My first suggestion was that the roadies get some cleat covers. My second was that a business should have a durable floor.

        The second suggestion is less about bicycle cleats and more about having done construction for a while and getting real frustrated with people choosing inappropriate materials. If road cleats will mess up a floor material then other shoes probably will too. This might not be a good solution at this point for this situation, but I wish that businesses would start to see the virtue of appropriate material choice for function and not just form. That's my point on that count and it's not cycling specific.

        So, like I said 1) cleat overs, 2) more durable floor. I don't see the problem with pairing these suggestions. Responsibility for the roadies and a better way of picking materials for the business.

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    • jim April 15, 2011 at 12:41 am

      what if i came into your house and walked around on your hardwoods with my cleats on?

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  • timbo April 14, 2011 at 6:07 pm

    As a person whom respects reasonable requests I think his sign is acceptable.

    The rules are not unreasonable to accommodate. He even includes his name and number if you have questions or concerns.

    Even though it's not in my hood I think I'll ride there to show him some cyclists don't mind respecting other peoples considerations.

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    • Paul in the 'couve April 14, 2011 at 7:49 pm

      Thanks, and I agree with you. It is a long way out of my way, but if I'm out there I'll make a point to stop. Baccellieri does sound like he is blowing off some steam unconstructively and potentially poisoning the relationship with PV. But, ....

      The best thing for the cycling community as a whole is to try to be constructive and show Baccellieri that the cycling community respects businesses and people despite some bad behavior from a few - which is probably a minority of the Portland Velo crowd.

      Regardless of what Portland Velo chooses to do, I see nothing productive in other cyclists boycotting Longbottom Coffee - or any other business. As pointed out above this is really an opportunity for a business that wants to work with an existing demand and provide a location that is set up to serve cyclists while remaining attractive to other customers who may even like hanging around sweat and spandex.

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  • PB April 14, 2011 at 6:09 pm

    This is very reminiscent of the 80's when the Beaverton Bicycle Club used to do the Jack Frost Time Trial Series on Sauvie's Island. The series consisted on 3 consecutive Sunday Rides, doing a lap around the island. When it began, there were probably no more than a handful of riders that participated but as it's popularity grew so did the number of riders. The last couple of years that the series was held on the island the numbers of riders topped 100! Unfortunately, as the rider count grew so did the complaints from the island residents. Similar complaints of multiple riders riding abreast, foul language and gestures at passing cars, and litter and garbage in the parking lot were just a few. While the majority of riders displayed proper riding etiquette, it only took but a few rogue riders for Multnomah County to not only stop issuing permits for the race but to ban it completely from ever being held on the island in the future.
    As a longtime Portland cyclist, a whole lot older and hopefully a little wiser (LOL), perhaps instead of fueling the THEM VS US mentality, why not try thanking the ownership and staff of Longbottoms for their support ( and hopefully continuing support) of local the local cycling scene. A little appreciation and acknowledgment goes a long way.

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    • timbo April 14, 2011 at 9:21 pm

      Right On PB. Taking the high road serves cyclists interests. Thanks for your input.

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  • Rol April 14, 2011 at 6:55 pm

    Since the Bike Snob has moved his consciousness to Portland, I invited it to take up residence in my head for a few minutes and this is what "it" came up with:

    http://www.rolandcouture.com/Freds.jpg

    Makes fun of both sides a little. All in good fun.

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    • Tomas Quinones April 14, 2011 at 7:14 pm

      I thought the lycra-clad were called Fabios.

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      • Rol April 15, 2011 at 5:03 pm

        I thought it was a matter of inexperience... like you could be a Fred even in Lycra.

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  • Ellen April 14, 2011 at 7:18 pm

    I had no idea the owner felt this way. I love riding with Portland Velo, but from now on I'm getting my coffee from Java Mama where the baristas are happy when I come in by bike.

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    • Brian E. April 15, 2011 at 7:46 am

      The coffee is far far better at Java Momma and they have let me bring my bike inside. (Michelangelo is my favorite).

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  • Charley April 14, 2011 at 7:24 pm

    Drop this dude. Drop his business. He doesn't want cyclists there, so don't go there. He probably won't care, and might not even lose too much money (though he'll likely lose some). End of issue.

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  • Brian April 14, 2011 at 7:39 pm

    Funny, about one third of bicyclists I know in Portland ARE Intel engineers!

    You can actually be two things at once you know. It's not like, you can only be an Intel engineer, OR a cyclist.

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    • Joseph April 15, 2011 at 12:39 am

      I thought this was pretty funny, too... almost like he's trying to dehumanize cyclists.

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    • A.K. April 15, 2011 at 8:58 am

      There are even Intel engineers *in* PV! Shocking, I know. Turns out having a nice job allows you to buy nice carbon bikes and spend time riding them.

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  • Mark C April 14, 2011 at 7:40 pm

    Okay, I've read the owner's response and I'm really confused. I've been a regular out there with PV for the last few years, and I've never witnessed the behaviors he's talking about on a widespread basis. Have there been occasional instances? I'm sure there were, but not like he's describing.

    Intel is his real bread-and-butter. Those folks are in there every day. He must have received complaints from Intel and decided he better take care of the hand that really feeds him.

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  • Red Five April 14, 2011 at 8:03 pm

    I think he's being reasonable. He's not telling anyone to go away, just be a little respectful and follow a few simple rules so other patrons can enjoy his business. Come on, like a big group of bike riders can't be a bunch of obnoxious jerks? I think we all know they can.

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    • Mike Fish April 14, 2011 at 11:23 pm

      If a group of six random people wants to meet up, they don't have to do anything. If six cyclists want to meet up, they have to call ahead. That's just plain discrimination. While not all parties of six or more??

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  • huh April 14, 2011 at 8:14 pm

    o.O

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  • Burk April 14, 2011 at 9:11 pm

    "It's people wearing tights,"

    Man, I knew we never should have ordered those new "bulgemax" shorts for the club kit this year, I don't care how cheap they were...

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  • FT April 14, 2011 at 9:17 pm

    I think the owner went at in in a bit of the wrong way. At the same time peoPle do not have to be so sensitive. I live in the area and I hate driving the roads on nice weekends. The motorcycles and bike take over the area (my neighborhood) with little respect for the surroundings.

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    • mark kenseth April 17, 2011 at 8:31 am

      Now you know how pedestrians feel ever other day of the week.

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  • lisa April 14, 2011 at 9:47 pm

    In the end, cyclists display behaviors no different than any other groups of humans. They can be self-centered, obnoxious and self-righteous.

    There's nothing new or different here in this scenario with Longbottoms.

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  • Hart Noecker April 14, 2011 at 10:49 pm

    Who in their right mind would agree with this ignorant business owner's claim that cyclists don't have the right to take the lane?

    You know who's slowing you down, motorists? You. You might have passed me once, but all you did was floor it until you were slowed down by another car, and then another and another and another. I am not slowing you down, dear motorist. I am removing one more car from the road that would otherwise being slowing you down even more. YOU, dear motorist, are your own enemy. I and every other cyclist out there is doing you a favor, and return that kindness with anger and aggression and disrespect.

    Don't want my money? Done. I'll give it to the hundreds of other businesses in this community who appreciate me and my choice to live car-free.

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    • Joseph April 15, 2011 at 1:00 am

      I enjoy the "vote with your dollar" strategy.

      You motorist that give me barely one foot between their passenger side mirror and my knee, never ridden a bicycle down a busy street (NE/SE 122nd for instance), yell at me and lay on your horn, berate me at stop signs/lights even thought I'm not in your way in the least... you refusing to put yourself in the shoes of someone using a method of transportation that only burns fat on my body and uses the smallest amount of taxpayer's money to maintain and incorporate the infrastructure into the roadways, and yet you STILL disregards my right to be on the road in my lane bicycling with my bike frame that weighs less than 50 pounds and nothing protecting me but a flimsy rain jacket and helmet from your two-ton torpedo you call a car/truck/bus/hummer.

      I think the scariest thing I can think about is the fact that a motor vehicle is something that is pretty easily obtainable and can be driven by 16 year olds with minimal training and a plethora of distractions (cell phone, radio, mp3 payer, baby, dog in backseat, etc).

      Scares me every day.

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    • snapbrim April 15, 2011 at 12:11 pm

      Sure, we have the right to take a lane. However, it's also perfectly within our rights to move momentarily to the right, assuming it's safe to do so. The letter of the law, when wielded as a bludgeon or as a shield, can be used to browbeat others or to cover one's own ass, but unyielding devotion to it is inherently limiting. Common sense and common courtesy demand that we sometimes yield our right to do such-and-such in order to exercise our prerogative to bend a little, to show some consideration. This goes for drivers and cyclists, and everyone else, too.

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      • Hart Noecker April 15, 2011 at 6:42 pm

        But nobody does that. Nobody wants a bunch of cars slowed down spewing out even more toxic chemicals.

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        • snapbrim April 18, 2011 at 11:00 am

          Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner, but I have to say this is a lame comeback. Basically, I said maybe people - which includes you and me - ought to try to show some consideration and your response is yeah well noone does. So why should we, right? Lame.

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  • Paul Souders April 15, 2011 at 12:40 am

    I've ridden a few times with PV although I'm not a dues-paying member. I'm always struck with their deference as riders/road users but never noticed their behavior as patrons.

    100+ riders are bound to be conspicuous, especially in club kit and neon jackets. So a) a few bad apples can quickly spoil a pretty big barrel, and b) conspicuousness means the bar for "bad apple" gets pretty low. But (given a) and b)) c) probability suggests that among 100s of cyclists there will be at least one "bad apple" every week.

    I think Baccellieri has legitimate concerns but poor communication skills. Longbottom has left some creative business solutions untried (See S Brockway's comments, for ex) but I can't/won't speculate why.

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  • Tourbiker April 15, 2011 at 3:10 am

    Soo...meet @ liberty high school, and arrange for someone with a coffee stand (Espresso)in the parking lot.? eventually you will create...

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  • earthquake April 15, 2011 at 6:08 am

    Is Portland Velo still wearing Longbottom ads on their jerseys? If the original deal was that PV could use the parking lot, and now they can't, this is a problem. Maybe PV members need to start pinning a patch over the ads on their jerseys.

    I would like to hear from the owner why he didn't talk to PV leadership about a change in sponsorship parameters.

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  • steve April 15, 2011 at 6:12 am

    So the bottom line is...Baccellieri is overwhelmed with the cyclist. He is setting boundries.

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  • k. April 15, 2011 at 8:33 am

    This is like Democrats and Republicans arguing on-line, and just as pointless.

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  • Brad April 15, 2011 at 8:34 am

    Longbottom has been "hosting" the Portland Velo Saturday rides for over five years. They have also sponsored the club, made their space available for PV events like the club century, kept staff after hours on century day, cooked BBQ for that event, etc. Compared to most, Longbottom has been extremely supportive of PV and cyclists in Washington County. There is history between Longbottom and PV so this isn't a case of "cyclist hate" because a bunch of riders suddenly decided to make this establishment their clubhouse.

    Mr. Baccellieri has become increasingly frustrated as the club has grown in numbers without a corresponding growth in revenue from its members. At the same time, Longbottom has become increasingly popular as a breakfast and lunch spot for Intel employees and local residents. He is simply making a business decision, that some here clearly do not like, to protect the clientele that offer him the best returns.

    Portland Velo is a really great local club with outstanding leadership. That said, the growth in numbers and the big influx of new and fair weather riders on dry days creates a nearly impossible management problem for ride leaders. People's growing sense of entitlement, lack of manners, and newbie's ignorance of ride ettiquette cause the friction that has been growing for some time. Individuals are generally reasonable, herds of people do not display the same sense of civility and decorum. Toss in glycogen depletion, dehydration, and general tiredness and you get the recipe for normally nice folks acting like self absorbed d-bags.

    The club has basically become the relative who comes for the holidays, stays an extra week, expects you to clean up after him, doesn't offer to help at all, and then never says, "Thank you!".

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    • A.K. April 15, 2011 at 9:03 am

      PV is big enough now that perhaps they should consider splitting the Saturday ride into an "eastside Saturday ride" and a "westside Saturday ride" to manage the crowd and not overwhelm any one location.

      I'm not sure that it would work out logistically for PV, but that would be my suggestion.

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      • Paul Souders April 15, 2011 at 10:38 am

        +1 this. I rode w/PV four or five times but never joined b/c it was so comically big. The last time I rode with them I counted 18 different groups ("Slow 17" "Fast 17" "17, no climbs" "Leisurely 17" etc.) not counting the racing team. And I only ever rode in the winter in lousy weather, I can't imagine what it's like in the summer.

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    • Jim April 15, 2011 at 9:17 am

      Nice post. This should be required reading for all.

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  • RRR April 15, 2011 at 8:52 am

    Wow.
    While the owner *does* have some legitimate gripes (cleats, taking up lots of tables), the others are mainly bogus- most of the riders who come in after the Saturday rides buy FOOD. And while there are a few who sneak over the bike parking limits, it's usually only 3-4 cars at the most. (The rest park in back)
    We DO use the bathrooms a lot! And fill up water bottles.
    Seems like this could have been worked out long before it got to this point- since they are one of our main sponsors. :/
    We certainly don't appear to be welcome any longer.
    (Is it too late to have Longbottom's removed from our new PV kits?)
    This is sad.

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  • StJason April 15, 2011 at 9:02 am

    Of course it is bigoted. Imagine the reaction to the following sign:

    ALL MOTORISTS

    NEW RULES

    Parking is to be in front of the building only.

    Soft soled shoes only allowed in restaurant, but shoes are required.

    Any motorist group of 6 or more need to call ahead of time for your table to be set up.

    No loitering in the parking lot or entry way, in or out of your vehicle.

    Please be respectful and courteous to other non-motorist customers, this includes employees.

    My question is: Is he really losing enough business from 'cyclists' that chasing off a group of business and taking the hit to his rep is worth it?

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  • James Crawford April 15, 2011 at 9:04 am

    Ok, I used to live in a small logging/farming town. The local hamburger joint had a sign "No Corks" which refers to the spiked boots worn by loggers. Keep in mind that the floor of this place was plywood. I had zero problem honoring that request. I also didn't presume to bring my Styhl MS 880 chainsaw with the 72 inch var that I use for felling and bucking old growth fir trees into the restaurant.

    The bottom line here is the restaurant's very legitimate monatary concerns. They have really high end stone floors that are also decorated with nice art work. Spoker cleats do tens of thousands of dollars in damage.
    Restaurants also survive or die baded on gross business. About sixty percent of their cost is the building and utilities. Their cash flow and profit is limited by the number of chairs and tables available. If someone comes in and buys one of their excellent breakfasts and coffee, then stays for about an hour, Longbottoms makes money. If someone comes in and orders a glass of water then hangs out with their friends for two hours, thevrestaurant is screwed.

    Now obviously a lot of you people have problems with businesses worrying about money. You obviously have a different attitude if someone runs over your precious bike. Think about it.

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    • James Crawford April 15, 2011 at 9:06 am

      PS. The barristers at long bottoms are really hot. I'm surprised that the owners wife doesn't have a problem with that.

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      • S brockway April 15, 2011 at 10:18 am

        I didn't know they had "Hot" courtroom advocates,Wow!!

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  • Doug Rennie April 15, 2011 at 9:14 am

    PV member here. I have ridden with the club from its inception in 2006, the big Saturday ride and the one time weekday rides on Wed and Fridays that had maybe a dozen riders.
    During the week, when we were a minority, Longbottom was always packed around noon when we went in after the ride. As with any place this large and full, the noise level was predictably high what with a hundred people eating and talking and telling stories and laughing and having a good time. They should hover over their food in silence as if dining in a monastery? Tables were pulled together by large groups. Nothing much different at all from the look and sound level of the place when we, and many non-cyling patrons, pack the place full on Saturdays.
    We park out back, save for the last 2 slots at the very end (as per our agreement with the owner), in areas where no non-cycling patrons ever park, or need to, so we are not taking away parking spaces from the Intel, et al crowd.
    As for not spending money, my experience over 5+ years is that his flatly, egregiously untrue. The vast majority buy not only $4 coffee drinks, but generally French toast, some other full breakfast, $8 sandwiches, oatmeal and toast, etc. Look around after the next Saturday ride (if there is one) and note the number of those little numbered delivery stands in front of cyclists seated at tables. It is damn close to a 1:1 ratio. Sure, there will be a few munching on Clif bars, but even many of those are drinking coffee or Cokes.
    As for the cleat issue. I'd estimate that over 3/4 of Saturday riders drive there, and these people change into Keene's or running shoes or some other kind of apres-ride footwear at their vehicles before going inside. Those who commute to the ride, I can't say, though it is a fair assumption that some do go inside sans cleat covers or cycling shoes w/recessed cleats.
    All this said, I'm certain that there are some arrogant riders on Saturday who DO wear cleats inside, DO block traffic, DO cluster in groups in front of the doors, etc. But again, in 5 years of being there, these jerks are a minority, and a small one. But these are also the ones non-cyclists notice. One more example of a few narcissistic cretins morphing into "those damned bikers" in the non-cycing consciousness.
    I'm for a zero-tolerance policy here. Identify someone blocking traffic, or otherwise impeding the normal flow in and out the parking lot or coffee shop or wearing cleats inside and ban them from that point on from any PV club rides. No discussion. No exceptions. They're gone.
    But overal, Mr. Baccellierii's grievances are overstated. Still, he owns the place . . .

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    • Paul in the 'couve April 15, 2011 at 9:39 am

      Thank you for a very reasonable response. I sincerely hope PV will follow people like you who want to see this work out positively for all, even if PV ends up moving it's Sat. ride elsewhere due to the size of the group.

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  • Julie April 15, 2011 at 9:17 am

    It's not uncommon for a group ride or club to outgrow parking lots, cafes, or other meeting points. I've seen it happen quite a bit. One group I am a part of had a ride that was typically about 20 people. Over time, it grew, a lot. The parking near the gathering point was all street parking. The ride drew a lot of people who couldn't (or wouldn't) ride to the ride based on either distance or ability. Eventually, the group overwhelmed the shop and the shop asked the group to find a new gathering point. It was fairly drama-free.

    This guy may not have handled it in the most diplomatic way, but it really sounds like this is what's happening here. When you have group rides of 80-100, that can overwhelm a LOT of places, even if everyone is riding to the ride (which I doubt is happening here). It's hard as group organizers when this happens, because you really can't control group behavior, and with that many participants you almost can't control blockages, parking where you shouldn't, and yes, rudeness with cleats. It's also hard to find somewhere awesome that can really accommodate such a large gathering.

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  • Jim April 15, 2011 at 9:21 am

    Brad
    Longbottom has been "hosting" the Portland Velo Saturday rides for over five years. They have also sponsored the club, made their space available for PV events like the club century, kept staff after hours on century day, cooked BBQ for that event, etc. Compared to most, Longbottom has been extremely supportive of PV and cyclists in Washington County. There is history between Longbottom and PV so this isn't a case of "cyclist hate" because a bunch of riders suddenly decided to make this establishment their clubhouse.
    Mr. Baccellieri has become increasingly frustrated as the club has grown in numbers without a corresponding growth in revenue from its members. At the same time, Longbottom has become increasingly popular as a breakfast and lunch spot for Intel employees and local residents. He is simply making a business decision, that some here clearly do not like, to protect the clientele that offer him the best returns.
    Portland Velo is a really great local club with outstanding leadership. That said, the growth in numbers and the big influx of new and fair weather riders on dry days creates a nearly impossible management problem for ride leaders. People's growing sense of entitlement, lack of manners, and newbie's ignorance of ride ettiquette cause the friction that has been growing for some time. Individuals are generally reasonable, herds of people do not display the same sense of civility and decorum. Toss in glycogen depletion, dehydration, and general tiredness and you get the recipe for normally nice folks acting like self absorbed d-bags.
    The club has basically become the relative who comes for the holidays, stays an extra week, expects you to clean up after him, doesn't offer to help at all, and then never says, "Thank you!".

    Nice post. This should be required reading for all

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  • single track April 15, 2011 at 9:26 am

    as a roadie, mt biker, crosser, and weekend rider, I completely agree with the owner. 100's of FREDs are obnoxious, rude, and bad for business. I'm embarrassed to be associated with groups like this. It makes it worse for those of us that use our roads and spaces with respect.

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    • Kristen April 15, 2011 at 10:52 am

      You were a FRED once, too.

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      • matt picio April 15, 2011 at 12:14 pm

        Did the definitions change? "Fred" is the bike commuter guy - no technical gear whatsoever. "Fabio" is the spandex wonder.

        http://www.discoverfrance-adventures.com/2004/10/fred-or-fabio.html

        Was there a redefinition of terms that I missed?

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        • Rol April 15, 2011 at 5:06 pm

          I think there's been some blurring or maybe some regional redefinition. The way I understand it, you can be a Fred even with fancy gear. Not that this is a matter of crucial importance mind you.

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          • fatmidwesternwhiteguy April 16, 2011 at 12:43 pm

            "Fred" is a very old term that has been used in many different ways in my lifetime. I've seen it used in many different ways even in the 70's, my earliest memories. It has been used to mean poser (someone who has expensive equipment and kit, typically a pro team kit, shaved legs, the works, but no fitness or speed), to a very strong flatland rider in t-shirt and running shoes, toe clips, obsolete helmet, glasses under the straps, and a fanny pack who drops fit club riders.

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            • Oliver April 21, 2011 at 10:54 am

              Hah! Unfortunately I too closely resemble the prior while longing to be the latter.

              Maybe someday.

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        • cyclist April 16, 2011 at 12:06 am

          Where I grew up the Fred was the guy with all of the fancy equipment who obviously didn't need it (or even know how to use it). The guy with the $5000 carbon bike but can't ride up to the top of Mt. Tabor.

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  • Frank Castle April 15, 2011 at 9:53 am

    Arrogant Cyclists out in force! In the coffee shop and in the comments.

    Business owner got fed up with your sense of entitlement. Go figure.

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  • Nikana April 15, 2011 at 10:00 am

    I work really close to Longbottoms & go there sometimes. This sign makes me feel unwelcome as a cyclist. It's not titled "All Cyclists that come in really big groups" - It's titled "All Cyclists". And the fact that they felt that they needed to make special rules & hang signs just for cyclists makes it seem that they don't want any cyclists in their business. If I was on bike and stopped to go in & buy something & I saw that sign I'd turn around and go somewhere else. Frankly if I was on foot or had a car and saw that sign I'd still turn around because I'm not going to spend money somewhere that wouldn't welcome me if I had ridden a bike there. It's his choice to put up the sign & my choice to stop going there because of it. All the explanations about group rides & the rude few spoiling it for everyone aren't going to change that for me. The sign gives the impression that "all cyclists" are not welcome even if that wasn't the intent.

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  • Joe April 15, 2011 at 10:51 am

    sad that we all can't have the same treatment as humans.. I won't buy from that place or even try to meet there. In the bay Petes Coffee welcomes huge crowds of riders. miss that welcome here in Oregon.
    ride safe.

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    • Speedster April 15, 2011 at 1:32 pm

      What part of that sign does not treat you as a human?

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  • sacramennah April 15, 2011 at 10:53 am

    Ah, cyclists - such thick heads, such thin skin. Round here, our velo clubs have been known to make small donations to certain establishments that we frequent, when we observe that our large group numbers constitute a hardship or a PR problem. Buy some patio tables or chairs, pay into a floor maintenance fund... use some imagination, club leaders.

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  • Greg April 15, 2011 at 10:56 am

    Frank Castle
    Business owner got fed up with your sense of entitlement. Go figure.

    Sense of entitlement is exactly what is on display here. It's not just bicyclists, though. It seems to happen with any large group. Harley clubs do it. Old car clubs do it. There's a wedding chapel near where I live and the wedding parties do it. Pro-sports fans attending games/matches do it. I've even seen church groups do it. There's something about our human herd mentality that causes us to act like self-absorbed jerks when we gather in groups for a common purpose or interest.

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  • Corndog April 15, 2011 at 11:32 am

    Never ceases to amaze me how hostile people get on comment boards. I guess there is a lot of pent up anger in this community. Seems odd to me how many seeming bike/cyclist haters actually read this blog.

    I am a PV member and have been for years, and I have ridden the Saturday ride many times, and eaten and drank coffee at Longbottoms after the ride. I can't really recall a time eating there when everyone from the group that was in there wasn't doing the same.

    Of course I can understand the frustration of the owner and of course he has every right to post that sign. I think it is crazy for all these people on here to say they will boycott the place now, that seems a bit harsh. I have always had good service and good food from there and am very thankful for the hospitality they have shown us over the years.

    I wish I had some better understanding of who/what was done to warrant this so that PV could work to make sure things get smoothed out and we can continue to use their parking lot. I am always amazed by the overall good vibe from everyone I encounter in the club and it is hard for me to imagine some of them being disrespectful. But I am sure there are always a few bad apples and they are really spoiling a great bunch.

    As for some of the other comments about this group and cyclist in general I can just say, if you haven't been there and ridden with PV then you should shut your mouth about your speculation of how they are. Every ride I have ever been on has started with a discussion about the absolute need to follow the rules and the rode, and every ride leader enforces this. We always ride off the side of the road and when on the rural roads with no bike lane we ride 2 by 2 and merge into single file when cars are behind.

    I have to laugh at people who clearly seem to hate cyclists, ranting about how cyclists disrespect the rules of the road, as if all automobile drivers follow the letter of the law. I ride a bike everyday. I also drive a car everyday. Not a day goes by when I don't see several cars rolling through stop signs, running lights as they are turning red, making right turns on red lights without looking to see if there is a bike in the bike lane etc. There are bad cyclists who disobey traffic laws and there are bad drivers who do, but there are are also good driver and cyclists. Lumping everyone together does no good and is equivalent to discrimination.

    I know there will always be hatters on both sides of this argument, but can't you all find something more important to aim your anger at? The consequences of cyclists taking up a lane on the road is that a motorist has to lift his right foot and move it over 3 inches to the left, and be slowed down for a moment. Is this really something to be so angry about?

    Remember people patience is a virtue.

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  • Argentius April 15, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    @James Crawfod, They may be baristas, but I sure don't think they are barristers!

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  • Speedster April 15, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if this business owner sees a large group of cyclists as a problem for his business, then there probably is a reason for it. I doubt that in the past cyclists have been highly profitable and low maintenance and out of the blue he had decided to become confrontative.

    His business, his rules. And yes, large groups of cyclists (which I am often one of) can be aggravating to others.

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  • Lynne April 15, 2011 at 6:19 pm

    "It's not grandmothers that are doign this stuff. It's people wearing tights, wearing cleats, parking in the front and being obnoxious... It's not Intel engineers, these are cyclists."

    He's not been checking the PV demographics. Lots of grandparents. Lots of Intel engineers/employees.

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  • jim April 15, 2011 at 9:15 pm

    Man, I wish I owned that shop! I would segregate an area just for cyclists, sell bars, goo, water, etc. Many startups would KILL for regular visits from a similar group. What is that guy thinking?

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  • GlowBoy April 15, 2011 at 11:19 pm

    The owner sure managed to alienate a whole lot of folks who weren't causing any problems. The fact that he was subjected to unfair stereotyping as a kid doesn't make it OK for him to perpetuate it against others. When an individual causes a problem, deal with the individual. When multiple members of the group cause problems, get over your availability bias and single out the troublemakers rather than blaming everyone.

    That said, what kind of a d*** wears road cleats into ANY business other than a car-repair garage?! It boggles my mind that anyone would even think of such a thing, yet it seems to be not unusual. If you just can't bring yourself to wear shoes with recessed cleats, get over yourself and carry cleat covers, or even a pair of flip-flips to slip on instead. Oops, too prissy to do that? You don't get to go inside. Too bad! Think ahead next time. As mentioned above, businesses frequented by soccer players or loggers often post "no cleats"/"no corks" rules and nobody whines. Heck, even Washington State Ferries have no-cleats signs on the stairs to the passenger decks. Nothing wrong with expecting the same respect from cyclists.

    I used to have a pair of nice road shoes, but got rid of them when I realized they're only suitable for RACING. MTB shoes work great, and can be had in performance levels completely comparable to road shoes. Really, they shouldn't even be called MTB shoes -- they should be called "recreational shoes" and what we call road shoes should be called "racing shoes". I've got a pair of ultralight carbon MTB shoes that totally rule, are as stiff as the light pole in front of my house, and don't scratch up people's effing floors!

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  • Kenji April 15, 2011 at 11:19 pm

    Sign looks pretty reasonable to me. His interview question responses actually seem to indicate that he likes cyclists and still wants folks' patronage. It looks like he just doesn't want the jerks. I don't blame him. Seriously- it's like the jerks who toss bottles and garbage and into farmers' fields during races. Makes it harder on the promoters to come back when the landowners complain. PV is an upstanding group - and their leadership and the riders I know are exceptional. As any group gets larger it's tough to police everyone- I know from personal experience. As for how it stands now, I think a little more patience and dialogue are called for.

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    • fatmidwesternwhiteguy April 16, 2011 at 1:29 pm

      I actually agree here. I don't take offense at the sign. Although I feel politely asking people to keep the door clear or park their bikes in the designated area is better than posting a sign. I also don't think that the owner has said anything like "cyclists have worn out welcome". The blog title here is needlessly inflammatory.

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  • A good reminder April 16, 2011 at 6:57 am

    This is a good reminder that we need to try to be more mindful and respectful to one another. Period.

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  • Joe April 16, 2011 at 7:31 am

    off subject..yes everyone was a FRED once. if your
    in the sport long enuff you know.. but why do others
    try and profile eachother these days.. When I first
    moved out here met up with Bruce G RIP bro, and he was a great leader.. seems like its not the clubs fault, maybe just ppl not liking riders or cyclists, it happens here and other places its called hate.
    ..think if we all just shared.. better world? yes..
    one love

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  • NSparr April 16, 2011 at 9:31 am

    Since highschool I have enjoyed coffee and sandwich shops for running/cycling meeting points (usually after the workout), and since highschool I've known had the common sense and courtesy to bring non-muddy or non-cleated shoes along with a clean set of clothes into a business. This is an issue of respecting the establishment but also garnering respect for the community I represent while wearing running/cycling clothes.

    I don't think the business owner went about addressing the issue the best way possible, but shouldn't the ride group leaders have addressed the issue far before the business owner felt he needed to post a sign?

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  • fatmidwesternwhiteguy April 16, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    I love living, riding and racing in the Portland area. The bicycling community is one of the main reasons I moved out here. But I have to say that until the bicycling boom of the last few years, Portland had no more cyclists than Minnesota where I grew up. I understand there is a bicycling boom there too. But what we do have is a much bigger political divide out here, as well as a lot more passive aggressive behavior in general. In MN, a bike ride is just a bike ride. And if you have a problem with someone, you address them in person, in the moment. You don't post a passive aggressive sign. This would have been much better handled by both sides in several different ways.

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  • fatmidwesternwhiteguy April 16, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    Just for some perspective, I'm also a member of PCA (Porsche Club of America). The Oregon region of PCA used to hold autocross events at the Jubitz truck stop parking lot. Ultimately, we were kicked out for similar reasons. Now we hold our autocross events at the PIR south paddock. We always thought we brought good business to the truck stop, eating breakfast, buying lots of high octane fuel. But...it wasn't enough.

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  • Formerlongbottomgista April 16, 2011 at 4:10 pm

    As a former Longbottom employee I think I can add a little insight--this owner v. cyclist battle is much like any feud or controversy--each side is both right AND wrong in different areas.

    1) Baccellieri can be abrasive, opinionated, and a poor communicator... Some people are just that way, and yes that means deciding if those personal qualities in a small business owner are important enough to move your "dollar vote" to another establishment. He's not a bad person, but I understand that for some, this type of communication is just not tolerable.

    2) As a person with absolutely no investment in the "Us vs. Them" battle--I can tell you with reasonable objectivity that there were a solid number of bad apples in this group of cyclists that would routinely spoil the day for employees and many patrons. It's a fact that (in my time) only a small to moderate fraction of visiting cyclists would order anything at all, but they took up an awful lot of room, (some) made a terrible mess, were loud, unnecessarily rude, and for whatever reason these were typically the worst tip days for the staff despite the considerable effort put into working around and cleaning up after so many cyclists/patrons every week.

    My conclusion--PV, wherever you go you will have to learn to be more considerate of fellow patrons, waitstaff and property or this hostility between "cyclists" and "other" will continue unchanged. And Baccellieri/Longbottom, there are very effective means of conveying similar information that does not ignite a firestorm. I know you may want to play the "I was just saying..." card (we all do this sometimes), but drop it and admit that if your goal was harmony and coffee for all, you should take a different tone.

    Peace.

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  • John A April 16, 2011 at 9:25 pm

    some cyclists seem incapable of seeing that others might justifiably have a negative impression of them

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  • Bill E April 17, 2011 at 6:04 am

    I am in no way familiar with the situation. But. The part in the interview with the owner is the statement that, "it's not grandmothers who are doing this or Intel engineers". In what world are these subgroups mututally exclusive? Leads me to believe that the owner is reacting based on an irrational bias, and not necesarily attempting to resolve the problem with individuals who may, individually, be acting like jerks.

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    • Dan April 18, 2011 at 9:16 am

      Ironically - many members of PV are Intel egineers.

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  • Matthew April 17, 2011 at 9:32 pm

    Nonetheless, this has made me think about my team's behavior in the coffee shop of where we meet. I think we need to have a conversation about this topic and discuss the ideas that arise around such a sensitive issue.

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  • kenny April 18, 2011 at 1:04 pm

    I would personally blow it off. If you were someone who was loitering and being loud, causing a block with a group of other cylclists... heck, take note and change the behavior. Done. If not? Then just cover your cleats and be mindful like you likely have done.
    I DO think the generalization "cyclists" is a little obnoxious and would change the language to "some" cyclists. I am sue there is some very good customers showing up on bikes.
    This could just as easily be a car meet up that involved similar. People taking up spots to show off their water cooled VWs and only half or less buying anything in the shop. I have been with groups like that in the past.

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  • Dude April 18, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    Why is nobody talking about Baccellieri's ridiculous stereotyping? In the response, he admits it's only some people but the sign says "ALL CYCLISTS." And I love that he says I "shouldn't be offended" by this BS because I'm not an actual offender. Is he really that stupid?

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    • Dude April 18, 2011 at 10:56 pm

      I wouldn't think he would make a sign directed to only some bicyclists. It would have to be directed to all cyclists equally. Enforced equally also. It's too bad that a few rogue cyclists has made such a bad name for all of the cyclists. Many of them are respectful of their surroundings and people. I hope those riders get the message and don't just deny everything. I think the decent ones will continue to patranage this place, and I hope the rude ones go away.

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  • Dave April 19, 2011 at 9:09 am

    I was caught off guard by this change, I went to Longbottom's last Saturday to meet for the regular PV ride...empty parking lot! I am surprised the owner wants to blame his customers for so many of his issues. Why would anyone put a floor down that can't hold up to walking traffic? It ain't your living room buddy...if it doesn't hold up, make it right, don't blame the customers...
    Why would a coffee shop owner be unhappy because people come in and buy their coffee, eat there food and sit in their chairs at their tables? I thought that was the idea of a coffee shop...
    No tights? WTF, when was there a dress code for a coffee shop, especially in Portland! The owner is not a handsome as I would like to see, but I still used to buy his coffee...not any longer! Only handsome owners will take my money! Wow, that sounds random huh?
    Having been going on the PV rides for the past 3 years, after each I drop $ for coffee, food and put up with the slow service and barista who usually is surly and makes a sub-par cup, if the tips are poor my guess is it's because the service sucks and the quality of product delivered.
    Good riddance Longbottom's...I hope you find customers you like better, I'm sure we cyclists can find some place that likes our $ better.

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  • Over and Doubt April 19, 2011 at 4:32 pm

    Matt: Trace it back far enough, and it might even apply to "Fredericks" in three-cornered hats!

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  • rider steve April 20, 2011 at 3:39 pm

    I think there is a couple of issue.

    - PV has out grown this location and probalby most single locations. who has parking for 50 cars? most of which the owners are not there?

    - What coffe shop can support 20+ riders plus normal walk in traffic that all hits at the same time? McDonalds can't even do that.

    PV should spread out the meeting locations for the rides by speed.

    Considering using school parking lots.

    If people want to meet up for socializing after the ride they should feel free to ride to where ever they want and meet up there. Spread the "wealth" a little.

    I rode with PV one time, it was nice, but did feel like a little like a mini cycle oregon due to the number of riders there.

    I would ride with PV again seemed like a lot of nice people. But generally like riding solo or with 1 other person.

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