Mark Stosberg wrote...
Interesting. Will we also get to see photos of the factory in India they are already trying to outsource to ? In case that link dies...it goes to a page titled "Outsourcing Directory of Indiana". The subheading is "Metrofiets, LLC, Listed Member", and it contains the following content: Keywords : Custom Bicycle Builder of Cargo bikes Description : I am the current owner of a small bicycle manufacturing firm in Portland, Oregon. We have developed a new product line of Cargo bikes and are in the process of securing orders from re-sellers. We would like to investigate outsourcing the production of the main bicycle frame as well as the cargo box that makes the bicycle a cargo carrying marvel.

Shane Rhodes wrote...
I've said it again and I'll say it again... there is a bike builder right here in the great NW that has been building great utility/cargo bikes for more than 10 years. Jan VanderTuin of Human Powered Machines in Eugene, OR. www.catoregon.org/hpm.htm He may take awhile to build it but if you knew the workings of the CAT (which you should check out) you'd understand why. Good price, local, quality work, youth education, etc. Instant gratification? No. Long term sustainability? Sure. I'm sure that now that these style of bikes are getting more popular we'll be seeing more oversees production. I used to think we needed that to make them viable (cheap and competitive) but really we needed a better educated buyer and more local frame builders producing them.

websites wrote...
Hey Mark, Phillip Ross here. I am one of the guys with Metrofiets and I can assure you that we do not have any plan or intentions of building our bikes in India, or China etc.. In fact our WHOLE GOAL is to make this thing as close to home as we can, one bike at a time IN PORTLAND, OREGON. I followed your link and sent them an email asking them to explain how the info got there in the first place. Thanks for the heads up. Makes my skin crawl just thinking about it. :(

Jonathan Maus wrote...
Hi Mark, I have heard nothing about overseas outsourcing from Metrofiets... but I appreciate you sharing that link. I've sent it to one of the partners in the business and will address this issue with them when I do my story on this....which will be tomorrow or Thursday (2/21). it's interesting that this comes up because I know for a fact that the builder in this case is absolutely committed about making things by hand, in the USA. cheers,

Jonathan Maus wrote...
my comment above was being written the same time Phillip Ross was writing his comment above. I assumed that the India link was not their doing so I'm glad to hear it from the source.

henrycutler wrote...
Philip, Whether the Metrofiets is made in Portland, India, China or Atlantis concerns me much less than your flagrant disregard for intellectual property. Your prototype is just a blatant and nearly perfect knock-off of Maarten van Andel's Bakfiets Cargobike. Even the name is deliberately confusing. Immenent legal problems aside don't you recognize the hypocrisy of founding your idealistic venture ("locally made...") on the theft of another's work? Returning to the question of where the Metrofiets will be built: May I suggest that would be most efficient to have them made alongside the original Bakfiets at Azor in Hoogeveen, NL? It appears that most of the parts will be interchangeable so no resources would be wasted building and operating new production and distribution facilities. Met vriendelijke groeten, Henry

info at npGREENWAY wrote...
hmmm... this is interesting...

Mark Stosberg wrote...
From further review of the site, it does appear that the content appeared there because someone signed up and became a "listed member", and not that the website owners somehow scraped the content from somewhere else. Although the e-mail address associated with the posting is hidden, it is possible to guess what it is using the "forgot password" feature, if you know what possible candidate addresses would be. If you try the form with an address that is not in the system, it tells you it is not in the system. If you tried an address that *was* in the system, I believe it would tell you that this person was just sent a password reminder e-mail. It is true that the message does not convey that "we intend to oursource"...only that it is being "investigated", perhaps only with the intent to research comparison costs. The motive for anyone else besides Metrofiets to post this is not at all clear. You could guess it was some kind of corporate warfare, but it is so common for US brands to outsource, it doesn't seem particularly damaging. I also note that Phillip's response does leave open the possibility that Metrofiets posted the content, they are just surprised "how the info got there"...possibly the expectation was that the content would visible or discoverable from back in the US, since it was primarily targeted at the Indian market. I don't mean to disparage Metrofiets, I'm only trying to weigh the facts. I'm certainly interested to know "how it got there", too.

magpiesf wrote...
1. shanerh - i dont usually like talking smack like this in the public arena, but it needs to be said - cat would be a great option if they didnt have a reputation for promising delivery times, overshooting them by periods of up to and over a year, all while having demanded full price up front. i havent had to deal with them directly, but almost everyone i know who has one of their bikes (all but one of about 10 people, some with multiple bikes, myself excluded as my cat long haul came to me secondhand) has had delivery, timely parts replacement and/or communication issues - and these are primarily working messengers, who depend on these bikes for their livelihood. "knowing the workings of cat" doesnt mean jack to me when people have paid in full as demanded, been promised delivery in 6 months, and had to forcefully request their bike after a year and a half. i hear things have gotten better, but the history is enough to keep me from dealing with cat until good experiences outnumber bad ones. (the bikes themselves are just dandy, for the most part, once youve actually got one) 2. henrycutler - calling the name "metrofiets" deliberately confusing, well... thats what you get when you adopt a generic name for your product - "bakfiets" is dutch for "box bike", and is, in my experience, commonly used for ANY kind of cargo-carrying bicycle, whether that be a long john style, tricycle, heavy porteur... *any* cargo bike. that one doesnt hold water with me. it becomes "flagrant disregard for intellectual property" when it goes into *production*, not as a prototype - and only then if appropriate discussion has not taken place. virtually any long john style cargo bike design will be derivative of either the bakfiets.nl design, or the traditional design, to some degree - how much are you willing to accept will be the question, i suppose. 3. mark - the outsourcing website listing could just as easily be a forged entry as it could be something actually posted by metrofiets. no one should jump to conclusions either way - well likely never know beyond someones word how it got there.

Mark Stosberg wrote...
magpiesf, I agree that the origin of the outsourcing listing is unknown. The motive of why anyone would forge such a listing is not clear to me, while it would be common business sense for an business owner to look for ways to lower production cost to increase profit.

magpiesf wrote...
the potential motive for forging such a listing is as clear to me as the potential motive for creating the listing for real. while it is certainly plausible that metrofiets might have created the listing in order to look for ways to lower costs (or even merely satisfying simple curiousity), as you mention, it is just as easy for me to view a forged listing as an attempt to discredit the "local" intentions of metrofiets. im not saying i believe one or the other to be the case, of course - just that someones name being on a website somewhere in india doesnt necessarily mean they put it there.

magpiesf wrote...
and, the more i look at these pics, the more i question the idea of this as an ip violation - without the box (which, i will admit, is obviously inspired by the bakfiets.nl box), the frame is merely a simplification of pre-existing long john designs - with admitted inspiration from van andels design, but that is *inevitable* - theres only 2 basic designs of these bikes out there, and van andels is the most readily available in this country. so where does the line for an ip infringement get drawn? where is the point where the inevitable design inspiration becomes ethically unsound? (taking the issue here *separately* from the alleged devious information gathering) if metrofiets uses a platform rather than a box, is that ok? if they add a top tube? if they add a forward-canted "top tube" from seat cluster to the boom tube? and why isnt anyone up in arms about the cat/hpm wooden kid box, which is just as flagrant a copy of the bakfiets.nl box? for what its worth - no one came hunting for bilenky or ant when they put out blatant copies of the filibus cargo bike years back.

info at npGREENWAY wrote...
Jonathan and Co. There is some great dialog going on here. Can you please add this to our group? Bakfiets -- The Dutch Cargo Bike Thanks!

henrycutler wrote...
magpiesf and others, I've added much more extensive commentary and supporting information to the article itself where an extensive dialogue (albeit with much nonsense) has been running. Most of your questions above have been indirectly answered there: bikeportland.org/2008/02/21/an-update-on-metrofiets-the-p... At this point I feel I've stated my perspective there as thoroughly as suitable in the comments of a blog post and will have to leave it at that. I only wished to make my educated opinion known and inadvertently set off something of a bomb. Groeten, Henry

magpiesf wrote...
and henry - thanks for your patience and explanations there. please dont think im coming at you from a hostile point of view at all (note me = joel on bikeportland.org - i just dont use flickr that much) - im very sympathetic from the perspective of the basic ethical ideas involved in the copying idea (despite my disdain for some of intellectual property laws archaic ideas :) ), but at the same time keeping in mind that theres a limited number of inspirations to be had with this basic design of bike, and something that could be seen as infringement is near-inevitable. thanks for being patient in the oft-absurd world of blogs and forums. im sure this discussion would sound a lot different if it were being had in person, but... -joel

info at npGREENWAY wrote...

im sure this discussion would sound a lot different if it were being had in person, but...

Todd Fahrner wrote...
npGreenway: Just to clarify: Ladd MCCB did not build his monster bak for sale -- he is a local builder with a great sense of humor who loves to create strange bikes for his own use! [this comment not by cleverchimp, but by wife o'chimp]

henrycutler wrote...
... and just so you're absolutely sure: I think that monster bak is totally cool! My favorite detail is the parking stand operated by a lever and a little machine chain system. It seems to be geared so that the triangular stands rotate about 250 degrees to little rubber stops on either side of the box. Completely over the top fun. There are also a couple other similarly absurd machines barely visible in the background. If you look carefully one appears to be a motorcycle rear wheel grafted into an enormous chopper bicycle with a metal tractor seat. I can barely see it so I might actually be confusing two or three vehicles next to each other.

info at npGREENWAY wrote...
Yes, Cleverchimp, you are correct. I don't think Ladd MCCB intends to sell his monster bak either. Glad you enjoyed the photos, Henry. Yes the other machines are fun too! I only met this gentleman once about 3 or 4 years ago. I'd like to meet him again. He sounds like a fun guy!