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  #11  
Old 09-14-2008, 10:45 PM
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wsbob wsbob is offline
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Originally Posted by Psyfalcon View Post
How is a license going to stop redlight runners?

If they have a drivers license, they should know better. If went to kindergarten, they should know better. "green means go, red means stop" was part of a prominent game!
I'm not sure most people think very far into how a license would "stop redlight runners...", but my impression is that they propose that people riding bikes be required to have a license or something on the order that motor vehicle drivers do, because they hope that something like this would bring about a more consistent sense of accountability from people riding bikes on the road.

A driver's license isn't required to use a bike on the road/streets. That means there's probably a whole lot of people riding bikes in traffic that might know that "green means go, red means stop", but not a lot else that would have them model behavior in traffic that would support an organized flow of traffic.

A simple I.D. should be essential for anyone riding a bike in traffic. At the least, for the simple reason that if someone is injured in an accident, that information is there to identify the person, contact family and so forth. It would also work to provide the cops with info they need to issue a citation if the person blows a red light, etc, etc.

A bike in traffic I.D. could be a way to obligate people of an age allowing them to ride a bike in traffic on their own, to get some formal knowledge of how to do that right. Shouldn't matter how people are; if parents think their kids are old enough to be riding in traffic, they're kids should probably get some formal education training them how to do that. If public schools weren't already overburdened, it could be taught there. This kind of fairly simple measure might go a long way to curbing some of the flagrant behavior in traffic that Stanfordites seize upon in exasperation to call out for licensing and license plates for bikes.
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  #12  
Old 09-15-2008, 06:33 AM
Psyfalcon Psyfalcon is offline
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How about this.

Oregon licenses drivers at 16. There are no vehical weight restrictions for a driver with a license (at least upto 26,000 lbs). A 16 year old, who took their drivers test in a Geo Metro is therefore allowed to drive a giant RV or F350 with trailer or bigger.

This: is a 24 ft box truck. This is legal for a 16 year old to drive.


Are we serious saying that an adult is incapable of driving a bike?

The Iowa proposal appears to be a tax. No one has cited any other reason except for expected revenue. I do not believe that truck would pay any more for road damage caused except in gas tax than any other car. A 4,000 lb jeep might pay half the gas tax as a 26,000 lb box truck (UHAUL says to expect 7mpg, some modified jeeps report under 12mpg).

And my steel tank of a bike weighs 40lbs. You really think I make a difference on the road surface?
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  #13  
Old 09-15-2008, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by wsbob View Post
A driver's license isn't required to use a bike on the road/streets. That means there's probably a whole lot of people riding bikes in traffic that might know that "green means go, red means stop", but not a lot else that would have them model behavior in traffic that would support an organized flow of traffic.
I don't have much time to comment on this interesting thread. I might not be back for a few days or so. However, people who do not know green means go and red means stop should probably be institutionalized because they are most likely operating at the mental capacity of a 3 year old.

I have a 5 year old daughter who has known the difference between green and red for at least a year. She and many other kids are getting constant supervision from their parents, caregivers on the rules of the road and operating in them that will be useful later on in life should she commute by car or bike.

My views on the licensing thing are:

1. It won't drastically change behavior or result in a significant number of traffic tickets. The only way a biker will likely get a ticket is if a cop witnesses the act. A cop is going to be able to chase down a biker regardless of whether he or she has a license plate.

2. It is likely to be a money loser. Worse yet it is counter to our states regional greenhouse gas commitment, which will be implementing a cap on transportation related GHG emissions in several years.

3. It is hypocritcal to impose a fee on bikes to maintain roads when by far the biggest cause of road damage goes untaxed. If people are really serious about charging bicyclists for road maintenance then they should have no problem with imposing a user fee on people who choose to install studded tires on the vehicles in the winter months.
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  #14  
Old 09-15-2008, 09:22 AM
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Thanks for that Psyfalcon. So, you're talking about a 16 yr old kid that would be driving a privately owned truck like that, in a situation that wouldn't require a CDL, correct? Someone with possibly minimal driving education and experience. Wonder how the Stanfordites feel about this kind of situation. Reminds me of a time long ago...In a little town, with a busy main street....Newberg actually...I knew this flaky high school kid. I never knew him to drive or ride a bike.

Then all of a sudden one day, I see him driving around town in a rental truck a bit smaller than the one in your picture. When I talked to him, he told me he didn't have anything to move, he wasn't especially trying to learn how to drive the truck. He just rented it to horse around in for the day. Far as I know, he didn't get into any trouble with it that day.

"Are we serious saying that an adult is incapable of driving a bike?" Psyfalcon

As I see it, the concern is not whether a person can 'drive', or ride a bike. Most people having a basic sense of balance can learn to do that with a little practice in the school parking lot over a weekend.The concern is that people, especially those below driver's license age, that ride bikes, have some kind of education that trains them in how to safely make their way though traffic if they need to be traveling on a busy street.

They need to learn to move though traffic using many of the standard practices people use, or are supposed to use when driving any kind of non-commercial vehicle on a busy street. That means looking back (or using a mirror)before switching lanes, signaling any indication to turn, well in advance of the turn (100'), signaling for stops is probably a good idea too. That's just naming a couple.

I got to get to work, so this might not be quite as well thought out as try to usually make my comments.
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  #15  
Old 09-15-2008, 05:24 PM
bikerinNE bikerinNE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsbob View Post
As I see it, the concern is not whether a person can 'drive', or ride a bike. Most people having a basic sense of balance can learn to do that with a little practice in the school parking lot over a weekend.The concern is that people, especially those below driver's license age, that ride bikes, have some kind of education that trains them in how to safely make their way though traffic if they need to be traveling on a busy street.

They need to learn to move though traffic using many of the standard practices people use, or are supposed to use when driving any kind of non-commercial vehicle on a busy street. That means looking back (or using a mirror)before switching lanes, signaling any indication to turn, well in advance of the turn (100'), signaling for stops is probably a good idea too. That's just naming a couple.
This is the parents responsibility, not the states. The parent teaches them how to ride a bike, in doing so, the parent also needs to teach them the proper way, and rules of the road. Not the state. It's common sense really.

A question, do you signal on your bike, 100 feet before a turn? You do that in a car because your traveling at a much greater speed.

My opinion is that 12 year olds shouldn't be riding there bikes through traffic. Children should be supervised. If a child is riding there bikes on Sandy Blvd at 3 or 4 in the afternoon, the parents need to be spoken to by the authorities. Kids under the age of 16 don't have the mental capacity to understand the rules of the road. Lets let them get there math and reading skills honed before you try and teach the yielding principles. I don't think teenagers should be allowed to drive until they have diploma in there hands.

Stop thinking this is the State of Oregon's issue. It's really not. Parents need to teach there children. Hold hands when crossing the street, walk your bike across the street, don't take candy from strangers, don't wear hats at the dinner table, don't rest your elbows on the dinner table, open doors for ladies, men walk on the curb side of the street, always hold your hand over your mouth when you cough. Manners, rules of the road, common sense, reasoning, controlling a child's behavior are all parents responsibility. What happened to taking responsibility for yourself and child.

Rid yourself of the idea that it's the state of Oregon's problem, its not.
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  #16  
Old 09-15-2008, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bikerinNE View Post
This is the parents responsibility, not the states. The parent teaches them how to ride a bike, in doing so, the parent also needs to teach them the proper way, and rules of the road. Not the state. It's common sense really.
bikerinNE, whether they're taught by parents, the state, or some kind of private program, that they are dependably taught seems to be very important. Is riding a bike safely in traffic simply a case of using common sense? For me, driving a car in traffic wasn't simply a matter of using common sense. I had no problem being able to drive the car; cruising along out on an isolated road with no cars for miles around, or tearing around out on a harvested field was no problem whatsoever. Learning to drive the car in traffic without running into someone or something or cutting someone off...that was much harder. It took lots of patient coaching from nerve-wracked parents and hours of experience behind the wheel before I could do that competently.

With allowance for the difference in mode of travel that bikes are from motor vehicles, given the fact that bikes are increasingly used in heavy traffic situations, isn't it wise for people riding a bike in those conditions to have some of the same careful training and experience people driving cars in those conditions receive?

Here's the thing about age of people riding bikes in traffic: 12 yrs old is too young for a kid to be driving a motor vehicle. I don't think too many people will argue that point(in extraordinary situations a kid under the drivers license age can get a license to drive...I don't have the specs for you here, but it's not common practice) With bikes, the situation is a lot different. There are some very big, strong 12 yr olds out there, physically capable of riding in traffic in a situation like downtown. A lot of them aren't under mama's arm anymore. If they're going to be riding bikes in traffic, shouldn't some measures be in place to ensure that they have some knowledge and experience to do this safely and competently?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerinNE View Post
A question, do you signal on your bike, 100 feet before a turn? You do that in a car because your traveling at a much greater speed.
Yes I do, frequently. Not always...I make allowances for the particular situation I'm in. If there's no cars for blocks, obviously there isn't a lot of need to signal for 100'. If I'm in busy traffic, I signal boldly and well in advance, because it seems like a great way to make myself and my intentions visible to all the other road users around me. Gives me a chance to stretch my bod too.
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  #17  
Old 09-15-2008, 09:40 PM
ME 2 ME 2 is offline
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Default RE age of responsibility for bike riding

for bikerinNE and WSBOB, I seem to recall the someone from the BTA saying they consider children 10 years of age and older to have the mental capacity to drive solo to his\her school.
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  #18  
Old 09-15-2008, 10:08 PM
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Me 2, could you clarify that? ...because you're title 'RE age of responsibility for bike riding' has me wondering whether you're saying the 'BTA someone' was referring to driving a car or 'driving' a bike.

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for bikerinNE and WSBOB, I seem to recall the someone from the BTA saying they consider children 10 years of age and older to have the mental capacity to drive solo to his\her school.
Depending upon the situation, I think some 10 yr olds could possibly be able to ride a bike to school in low traffic situations. Better though would probably be for parents to escort groups of kids to school by bike. I see parents walking theirs and other kids to the bus stop and waiting until the bus comes to pick them up, then coming to meet them in the afternoon too.
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  #19  
Old 09-16-2008, 09:06 AM
ME 2 ME 2 is offline
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It was an Oregonian story, which I can't find on the web anymore. I think it was about the BTA's Safe Routes to Schools program or one of those stories about how school will be starting soon and we'll see a lot of kids on bikes during the morning rush hour.

Anyhow if I recall correctly the story quoted Karl Rhode as saying they considered 10 to be the magic age when a kid was old enough to ride his\her bike to school without a parent or adult chaperone.
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  #20  
Old 09-16-2008, 09:29 AM
bikerinNE bikerinNE is offline
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Originally Posted by ME 2 View Post
Anyhow if I recall correctly the story quoted Karl Rhode as saying they considered 10 to be the magic age when a kid was old enough to ride his\her bike to school without a parent or adult chaperone.
As, "most" schools are not placed on busy surface streets, but in neighborhoods. Not on busy streets such as, Grand Blvd, 39th Ave, 82nd Ave, 122nd Ave.. Most schools are placed back in the neighborhoods, and kids might have to cross a busy road, but the don't have to ride a bicycle through major traffic, such a WSBob is arguing.


My feeling is this, asking a government to regulate bicycling through licensing, or any other means takes away a right that we have. Driving a motor vehicle is not a right, it's a privilege. As soon as you ask a governmental agency to over see the public in an activity it becomes regulated, and in that becomes a privilege, not a right. I'm not arguing that education shouldn't be offered at some level, but I am arguing that parents, and adults should be able to teach there offspring, and adults should exercise there ability to reason. Yes, a child can ride a bicycle alone, ten may be the magic number to ride to school. Does that mean a 10 year old should ride a bicycle down Burnside downtown. No thats crazy. does a 14 year old possess the knowledge and know how to parallel park, and drive downtown, no. Again it's common sense really. Lets not take something so beautiful as the bicycle, and F it all up with licensing and government control.
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