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  #11  
Old 02-25-2013, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by q`Tzal View Post
Everyone considers themselves to be a safe driver that would not harm others; within this framework it "reasonable" for the average driver to do something dangerous like diving for the floorboards as long as you aren't driving on a public road.
glad that you put "reasonable" in quotes because it's certainly not reasonable to ever stick your head down to the floor while the vehicle you're driving is still in motion...

and you can still get a ticket in the parking lot of a private business because the parking lot is a public space...
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  #12  
Old 02-25-2013, 08:18 AM
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and you can still get a ticket in the parking lot of a private business because the parking lot is a public space...
Perhaps in other cities but in Portland probably not.

I say "probably" because I base it on what an actual Portland Police Officer told me while I was working as an Oregon licensed Unarmed Security Guard.
At an unnamed location the customer (security is generally a 3rd party service) wanted us (the security guards) to enforce the stop sign at the exit to the property. This was a very old site and most of the employees had worked there for over 20 years; no one was going to stop without tangible consequences. Unfortunately the customer was unwilling to penalize their employees and we had no way to stop these drivers other than to jump in front of their automobile and hope they stopped.
Of course nothing changed but as a contracted service provider we have to try to acquiesce to the customer's demands.

One day a PPD traffic enforcement cop was parked immediately outside our site and it not being busy I chatted him up on my conundrum. He basically said that while an unsecured (not walled or fenced off) piece of property like a parking lot has a sort of "common law" public property status that PPD has no jurisdiction over street signs placed on private property by private entities that don't have traffic engineer degrees and could conceivably set up street signs for the purpose of entrapment. He sympathized but was able to direct me to some statutes that backed up what he said. Naturally I can't remember anymore what they were.

Of course this wouldn't stop a cop from writing "Too Dangerous for Conditions" tickets for blazing in and out of risky areas too fast but they require more effort to defend on a traffic-court-dismissal basis than a simple "20MPH or over" speeding ticket with laser speed gun telemetry. This also doesn't stop the police from issuing a ticket on private property for infractions on public roads; they are encouraged to pull drivers over somewhere safe and legal. Barbur is arguably less safe than any of our interstate highways for a cop executing a pullover. Parking lots seem reasonably safe until you remember that most people treat them like anarchy zones.

I'm hoping for either the self driving cars that will avoid pedestrians as flawlessly as Google's does in this video or red light cameras and unmanned speed traps everywhere that will free up police to actually enforce the more fuzzy interpretive parts of traffic law.
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  #13  
Old 02-25-2013, 08:39 AM
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Wink One more thing...

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glad that you put "reasonable" in quotes
Reasonable is like "common sense" to me: it depends greatly on the context of where and when you define it.

In the format of those SAT analogy questions:
"knowing how to hunt and butcher your own meat" is to "knowing proper online data security standards" IS AS "knowing how to drive in the country" is to "driving in the city".

These are entirely different skill sets based on vastly different learning environments; I've never gone hunting but I know what it takes to secure data both on and offline. Similarly: I was taught to drive by my drag racer father in the DEEP backwoods of South Carolina (really, I've never hunted ever). I never had problems until I had to adapt to city traffic patterns. There were just so many things coming from so many different directions; I totaled a few vehicles. My bad driving habits which were easier to correct for in sparse rural driving environs were nearly deadly in urban areas.

Perhaps we expect too much of "just plain folk" to be able to flawlessly perform a complicated and potentially deadly task in vastly different operating environments.
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Last edited by q`Tzal; 02-25-2013 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:44 AM
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I was out on Roy Rogers road Sunday and watched a driver coming out of the garden shop's parking lot. The driver was stopped checking traffic. A runner, in full blaze-green, thinking she was seen continues past the car when the car started to pull out onto the road. The runner damn near jumped onto the SUV's hood.

People just don't seem to have their heads screwed on completely when it comes to shopping.
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:39 PM
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Default private property ticket

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Perhaps in other cities but in Portland probably not.
I didn't say what kind of ticket... (:

you may not be able to get a "failure to obey a traffic control device" style ticket but you can get a reckless driving ticket or driving uninsured/unregistered/unlicensed ticket...

in your example of employees exiting the lot, the solution would have been to install a sidewalk at the exit... all vehicles must stop before the sidewalk when exiting a lot/driveway...
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:11 PM
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I was out on Roy Rogers road Sunday and watched a driver coming out of the garden shop's parking lot. The driver was stopped checking traffic. A runner, in full blaze-green, thinking she was seen continues past the car when the car started to pull out onto the road. The runner damn near jumped onto the SUV's hood.

People just don't seem to have their heads screwed on completely when it comes to shopping.
I've always surmised that this is a subconscious function of hazard prioritization.
When pulling out in to traffic we instinctively look for things that are a direct hazard to us right now, then potential future hazards to ourselves and then how we might be of harm to others. Very often these hazards are balanced, traded and ignored in the impatience to proceed. The easiest to ignore is the hazards to others that don't affect us.
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Old 02-25-2013, 09:09 PM
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you may not be able to get a "failure to obey a traffic control device" style ticket but you can get a reckless driving ticket or driving uninsured/unregistered/unlicensed ticket...
There are legions of "non street legal" vehicles out there that are perfectly legal when used on private property. Furthermore, if any other on street laws applied to off street driving we wouldn't have legal race tracks, legal testing of experimental vehicles or fun things like go-carts or dune buggies.
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in your example of employees exiting the lot, the solution would have been to install a sidewalk at the exit... all vehicles must stop before the sidewalk when exiting a lot/driveway...
Is that a STOP or a YIELD?
[citation needed]
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  #18  
Old 02-26-2013, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by q`Tzal View Post
There are legions of "non street legal" vehicles out there that are perfectly legal when used on private property. Furthermore, if any other on street laws applied to off street driving we wouldn't have legal race tracks, legal testing of experimental vehicles or fun things like go-carts or dune buggies.
private property isn't the same as public space at a private business... you can't just drive your street legal car onto the race track... but you can drive it into the Best Buy parking lot... because the parking lot if open to the public that means that certain traffic laws can be enforced... bored cops will often patrol parking lots looking for expired registration... they know you drive your car on the public road to get there...

those race cars are allowed on the race track because they didn't drive there and they won't drive away from there... what you do on private property is your business...

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Originally Posted by q`Tzal View Post
Is that a STOP or a YIELD?
[citation needed]
looks like a stop... 811.505 Failure to stop when emerging from alley, driveway or building

...

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Originally Posted by q`Tzal View Post
The easiest to ignore is the hazards to others that don't affect us.
I've only been hit once, at very low speed... the car was stopped at a stop sign looking down the street the direction I was coming from... as soon as I got in front of his car he took off to make the turn onto the road I was on... he kicked my back wheel out with his bumper... I had a front blinky and xmas lights on... when he got out and saw me he said "I don't know how I didn't see you" but looking back at all the light pollution in the direction he was looking I could understand how he wasn't paying attention for something small that wasn't a threat to him...
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