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View Full Version : Springwater Gap - Umatilla St. to 3-Bridges


mike_khad1
05-08-2007, 05:52 PM
While pedaling towards the Three-Bridges along SE 19th Street, I was approaching SE Clatsop at a pretty good clip (est. 18 mph). A car was on SE Clatsop heading towards SE 19th - also at a good clip (est +25 mph). I knew I didn't have a stop sign. I assumed that the car did. At the last second, I braked hard and did a sharp left turn. Good thing since the car went through without slowing, just missing me.

I went back along SE 19th and found there are several 4-ways between Umatilla and the 3-bridges where there are no stop signs in either direction:

SE 19th and SE Harney, SE 19th and SE Clatsop, SE 19th and SE Marion, SE 19th and SE Linn (actually a sort of three-way intersection).

BillD
05-08-2007, 09:48 PM
..............................snip.............

I went back along SE 19th and found there are several 4-ways between Umatilla and the 3-bridges where there are no stop signs in either direction:

SE 19th and SE Harney, SE 19th and SE Clatsop, SE 19th and SE Marion, SE 19th and SE Linn (actually a sort of three-way intersection).

That's called an uncontrolled intersection. The vehicle on the right has the right of way, regardless of who gets there first.

See ORS 811.275

http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/811.html

It's hard to tell from your description just who that was.

Glad you weren't hit.

A tip from the defensive driving instructor days: Identify the intersection as to type (uncontrolled/controlled) as you approach. To see if the traffic approaching on your right has a stop sign, take a quick look to where it should be and look for the shape of the back of the sign. This will only take a small fraction of a second. If you don't see the sign, it's time to start to evade the vehicle... it may be expecting you to stop.

mike_khad1
05-09-2007, 05:45 AM
Thanks for the tip. The car was on the right so it had the right-of-way. I'm glad I didn't play a game of chicken with it.

SyntaxPolice
05-28-2007, 08:40 PM
I hate those uncontrolled intersections. In my opinion, it doesn't matter who has the right of way. You should not expect anyone to stop if they don't have a stop sign, especially if you're on a bike.

I always see people blowing through the uncontrolled intersections and T intersections without stopping or looking. I almost got hit by a pickup at a T where I had the right of way.

Even at bike speeds, it's hard to tell if the cross road has a stop sign... for that matter, you can hardly count on anyone to stop if they DO have a stop sign ;)

peace.

Matt P.
06-01-2007, 08:21 AM
Thanks for the tip. The car was on the right so it had the right-of-way. I'm glad I didn't play a game of chicken with it.

Actually, according to your original account, you had the right-of-way. You said that the car was travelling in excess of 25 mph (the legal speed limit). In that case, he forfeits his right-of-way: ORS 811.275(3)

Of course, one shouldn't rely on the law to protect one's own skin.

Jakelin
06-01-2007, 10:18 PM
Actually, according to your original account, you had the right-of-way. You said that the car was travelling in excess of 25 mph (the legal speed limit). In that case, he forfeits his right-of-way: ORS 811.275(3)

Of course, one shouldn't rely on the law to protect one's own skin.

Not to mention that the '+25 estimate' from the person not on the right probably will not make for good legal grounds for fault. The car will say they were going 25 mph and since they were on the right, they had the right of way. It would be next to impossible to prove otherwise.

Pedalphile
06-02-2007, 12:08 PM
Any vehicle that outweighs mine by more than fifty pounds has the right-of-way, regardless of whether or not they actually do. It's a personal philosophy designed to keep my body intact.

mike_khad1
06-02-2007, 11:41 PM
The car was going too fast and weighted too much for me to assume or hope that it would stop. Although I hate to brake unnecessarily, my hard braking this time was definitely necessary.

I does strike me as odd that there are so many uncontrolled intersections on the designated bike route from Umatilla to the 3 bridges. But since I don't stop at stop signs (when nobody's coming) why unnecessarily hinder cars with stop signs that they have to obey. Fair is fair.

I just need to be more careful and never assume that someone elses actions are needed to keep me safe and whole.

Matt P.
06-03-2007, 07:18 PM
Actually, that's pretty normal for bike routes, it's the bike boulevards that have stop signs on the feeder streets, e.g. Clinton, Lincoln, Salmon, Ankeny.

The designated bike route between Burnside and Glisan, for example, also has a lot of uncontrolled intersections.

Striker991
06-21-2007, 07:58 AM
But since I don't stop at stop signs (when nobody's coming) .

So, you don't think this law applies to you? This is completely erroneous thinking, and these thought patterns are what causes a lot of the conflict that exists between cars and bikes.

What if you don't see someone coming and you blow through?

fetishridr
06-21-2007, 11:39 AM
if one rolls through in a car, you can be damn sure they roll through on a bike and vice versa.

but bike corridors in residential streets having stop signs rather than yield signs every two blocks is poor planning. i believe that the bike routes were designed after the infrastructure was put in, so it will take time and money to update signage. The ladd sting as well as the omsi sting is on MAJOR cyclist arterials. you would see the same amount of law breaking on major car arterials if a sting were to happen. such examples occur every New Years eve, labor day weekend, memorial day weekend etc on the interstates and surface arterials. if cops cited every speeder on I5 north in Lake Oswego, the OSP would need hundreds of officers writing tickets every day. so dont give me this bs about all of the cyclists being lawbreakers.

but striker 991, you are vehemantly opposed to law breaking bikers but take a look at this berkely study on stop signs and travel time and neighborhood benefits. there is more safety for all when stops are removed if traffic calming is added.
http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/transportation/Bicycling/BB/Guidelines/chap1.htm

i learned once that those who throw stones shouldn't live in glass houses.
do you live in such a house? Is your driving/riding record without incident? i highly doubt it.

Striker991
06-21-2007, 12:29 PM
if one rolls through in a car, you can be damn sure they roll through on a bike and vice versa.

but bike corridors in residential streets having stop signs rather than yield signs every two blocks is poor planning. i believe that the bike routes were designed after the infrastructure was put in, so it will take time and money to update signage. The ladd sting as well as the omsi sting is on MAJOR cyclist arterials. you would see the same amount of law breaking on major car arterials if a sting were to happen. such examples occur every New Years eve, labor day weekend, memorial day weekend etc on the interstates and surface arterials. if cops cited every speeder on I5 north in Lake Oswego, the OSP would need hundreds of officers writing tickets every day. so dont give me this bs about all of the cyclists being lawbreakers.

but striker 991, you are vehemantly opposed to law breaking bikers but take a look at this berkely study on stop signs and travel time and neighborhood benefits. there is more safety for all when stops are removed if traffic calming is added.
http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/transportation/Bicycling/BB/Guidelines/chap1.htm

i learned once that those who throw stones shouldn't live in glass houses.
do you live in such a house? Is your driving/riding record without incident? i highly doubt it.

Nice ASSumption, which is quite incorrect by the way.

There is a difference between working to change traffic controls and just ignoring them. Don't complain about cars not wanting to share the road if you aren't willing to abide by the laws that are meant to protect you.

BTW...go ahead and blow through stop signs as you see fit...it won't be me splattered on the cement by the car you missed seeing...

fetishridr
06-21-2007, 12:53 PM
where in my post did i advocate blowing stop signs?
i did mention a change of cycling infrastructure, but no, i didnt say that i run stop signs. that is a good way to end up dead.


you are insulting the majority of law abiding cyclists with your rants about safety, but maybe you are accessing a few lawbreakers. most people on this sight ride frequently and those who ride frequently generally abide the laws.

lay off the 'roids man, you sound like you are still in high school attempting to sort out your raging hormones by lashing out at the wrong people.

there are far too many people set in their ways, communication involves active listening my friend, not just techno ranting at bike loving portlanders. maybe you should step back from this convo and digest this whole argument, i dont think you're hearing me.

toddistic
06-21-2007, 03:12 PM
Nice ASSumption, which is quite incorrect by the way.

There is a difference between working to change traffic controls and just ignoring them. Don't complain about cars not wanting to share the road if you aren't willing to abide by the laws that are meant to protect you.

BTW...go ahead and blow through stop signs as you see fit...it won't be me splattered on the cement by the car you missed seeing...

the verbage you use to describe a cyclist being hit is quiet insensitive and is counter productive to any valid point you could possibly come up with although I find the idea of you coming up with a valid point amusing

mike_khad1
06-28-2007, 01:30 PM
IMHO - I believe in never stealing anyone's right of way. I slow, look, and proceed with caution through stop signs. I stop, look, and sometimes proceed with caution through red lights (sometimes I just stop and wait, drink some water).

My actions as stated above are probably not legal, but at the same time, I don't think they are unsafe.