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K'Tesh
09-17-2011, 10:41 PM
Interested in a safer Fanno Creek-Hall Blvd crossing?

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6074/6157955704_a606abd10d.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ufobike/6157955704/)

Join us for an Open House
Wednesday, September 21 (2011)
6:30-8:30 p.m.

Conestoga Rec Center
9985 SW 125th Avenue
Beaverton, OR 97008

Formal presentation at 7:00 pm
Get an overview of the project's
purpose and schedule, and learn
about crossing alternatives that
are under consideration. Project
staff will be on hand to answer
questions and discuss concerns
citizens may have about the pro-
ject. We Hope you will join us!

For more information:
Brad Hauschild, Park Planner
Tualatin Hills Park & Recreation
503 629 6305 x2931
bhauschi@thprd.org

www.FannoCrossingHall.org (http://www.FannoCrossingHall.org)

http://www.fannocrossinghall.org/files/maps/map_studyarea.jpg (http://www.fannocrossinghall.org/?p=maps-and-study-area)

DaveT
09-22-2011, 02:28 PM
I attended the open house last night. For those that missed it you can review the 4 options on the web site K'Tesh posted above, and you can then indicate which you prefer and reasons in the online comment card. Survey closes on Monday the 26th, so don't wait.

I was disappointed to learn that there is no funding beyond the design at this point, once the preferred option is selected and approved by Beaverton and THPRD they will start applying for funding. Given the current mood in Congress to slash the transportation budget, starting with "extras" like ped and bike funding, we may not see any actual construction for years.

K'Tesh
09-22-2011, 03:12 PM
I've uploaded the photos and videos I took (sorry about the quality) on flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ufobike/sets/72157627728412888/).

Simple Nature
09-22-2011, 08:38 PM
Care to lay odds? I see a crossing coming... none of the others are attractive to me. The raised road is ugly and the bridges are very expensive. A few signs; a couple of lights; and a center island is sufficient... it is a "midstreet crosswalk" which they hate doing but I think they already know it is the only choice they really have.

K'Tesh
09-22-2011, 10:01 PM
Care to lay odds? I see a crossing coming... none of the others are attractive to me. The raised road is ugly and the bridges are very expensive. A few signs; a couple of lights; and a center island is sufficient... it is a "midstreet crosswalk" which they hate doing but I think they already know it is the only choice they really have.

I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty, an "at grade" crossing will never happen here unless cars go away. Queuing for the left turn will prevent the center island from being made. A traffic engineer was there, and even with two left turn lanes, and SW 125th being factored into the equation, she was able to show that the queues would extend almost all the way back to SW Nimbus in only a few years.

My first choice is the underpass (so long as it can be kept mud free), 2nd is the spiraling overpass, but I'd want a longer spiral to reduce the angle for cyclists and wheelchairists alike.

DaveT
09-26-2011, 11:55 AM
My first choice is the at-grade crossing. It would be really cheap except for the need to add a second left turn lane, and if what K'Tesh said in the previous response was accurate those will be needed just to handle traffic growth anyway.

My second choice is the tunnel. It is the best option to make Hall a "non-event" for trail users. I didn't make it my first choice because it is the most expensive. If it becomes the preferred alternative getting that amount of money will probably be harder / take longer, and therefore we will have to put up with the status quo for more years.

I don't like either overpass option. Every overpass I've seen is an eyesore. If it must be an overpass I prefer the straight ramps. I foresee conflicts between cyclists and other trail users going around the spiral ramps. So my third choice was the straight ramp and the spiral was dead last.

Dave

K'Tesh
09-26-2011, 06:39 PM
Just a reminder that the final Fanno Creek-Hall Blvd Crossing SAC meeting is coming up on Wednesday, September 28 at 6:30 pm. This is an important meeting, the committee will finalize their recommendation (of two crossing options) so please join us!

Wednesday, September 28 from 6:30 to 8:30 pm.
Conestoga Center, Room 202
9985 SW 125th Ave
Beaverton OR 97008

A draft agenda for the discussion can be found on our website http://fannocrossinghall.org, under the Public Involvement tab, on the Events page.

Thank you for your interest in this project.

K'Tesh
09-29-2011, 12:13 AM
In Last place... Mid-Block Crossing, there's just too much traffic trying to turn left at Greenway to make one work.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6149/6193906467_0fc6ee90e1.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ufobike/6193906467/)

In 2nd/3rd... The Bridges (Ramp slightly leading over the Spiral). Major concerns, cyclists bypassing it and "wild cat" crossing mid-block. Speed of cyclists and skateboards on the descent, and difficulties for wheelchairists going up a 300+ foot ramp (even with landings).

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6164/6193905195_2cbd75d177.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ufobike/6193905195/)

Which makes the Underpass the clear winner. No waiting for signal changes, no long climbs or fast descents, and the raised level of the road would probably prevent cyclists from even wanting to try to "wild cat" cross. Good engineering should keep it out of the water during most high water events, and free of mud.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6180/6193902979_071a9400ff.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ufobike/6193902979/)



http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6160/6193906123_0dd8176985.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ufobike/6193906123/)

I've been having problems with the camera pop up lately... sorry about the poor selection of shots and quality (no flash)

wsbob
09-29-2011, 01:18 AM
On the lower right corner of the drawing for the underpass, is that a digitally altered photo showing what the underpass option could look like? If so, anyway someone could get that pic posted to this thread?

I'm squinting my eyes to look at it, and what I see appears to be a square opening in a big wall under the road. Height and width dimensions would be helpful. Doesn't look like anything special...certainly not something befitting what holds the potential to be quite a grand, natural setting park.

Unless an underpass settled for would be one of those claustrophobia inducing types such as the one further south of Hall Blvd on the Fanno Creek Trail, the opportunity should be taken to make something beautiful and elegant. Obviously, money is the big issue, tending to direct that plans be limited to anything but the most basic but functional option. But still... . What I think I've been hearing, is that this current process is just to decide on an option to proceed with and begin to locate funding for. The actual option chosen won't likely be built for years to come. Might as well plan to create something really good.

K'Tesh
09-29-2011, 10:14 AM
The underpass is one found in Vancouver, it goes under the railroad and leads to a nice little trail. I don't have a better pic.

wsbob
09-30-2011, 02:04 AM
I suppose a beautiful underpass for Fanno Creek Trail Park at Hall Blvd is just a crazy dream, but it doesn't hurt to take a look at some magnificent examples of how it has been done by other inspired people.

Note the type of arch and span of each Central Park bridge, rather than the rich materials and that they're designed to carry people rather than 4 lanes of motor vehicle traffic. The bridge shown at top, rises in the center, which would help deal with the low clearance issue at the Fanno Creek/Hall Blvd location.

Concrete would probably be the material a bridge/underpass for Fanno Creek Trail would be made of. I don't have a picture at present, but an overpass design based on something like those for Hwy 217 crossing Canyon and Beav/Hillsdale Hwy, is one I wonder if might be a possibility.

With cars running through them like mad, and being obliged to walk on a narrow sidewalk located at their extreme edges, the 217 overpasses are miserably bleak to walk under. If you block out the noise and visual clutter when walking under them, it's possible to see their design and finish, though very industrial compared to the Central Park bridges, is quite nice.


http://www.centralpark2000.com/assets/attractions/pbbrP0009555.jpg


http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/48235/1507631943041955433S425x425Q85.jpg (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1507631943041955433EQRssd)

K'Tesh
09-30-2011, 07:17 AM
I suppose a beautiful underpass for Fanno Creek Trail Park at Hall Blvd is just a crazy dream, but it doesn't hurt to take a look at some magnificent examples of how it has been done by other inspired people.

Note the type of arch and span of each Central Park bridge, rather than the rich materials and that they're designed to carry people rather than 4 lanes of motor vehicle traffic. The bridge shown at top, rises in the center, which would help deal with the low clearance issue at the Fanno Creek/Hall Blvd location.

Concrete would probably be the material a bridge/underpass for Fanno Creek Trail would be made of. I don't have a picture at present, but an overpass design based on something like those for Hwy 217 crossing Canyon and Beav/Hillsdale Hwy, is one I wonder if might be a possibility.

With cars running through them like mad, and being obliged to walk on a narrow sidewalk located at their extreme edges, the 217 overpasses are miserably bleak to walk under. If you block out the noise and visual clutter when walking under them, it's possible to see their design and finish, though very industrial compared to the Central Park bridges, is quite nice.


http://www.centralpark2000.com/assets/attractions/pbbrP0009555.jpg


http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/48235/1507631943041955433S425x425Q85.jpg (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1507631943041955433EQRssd)

I forwarded your message (and photos) on to members of Metro, ODOT, THPRD, and others.

I wish I had thought of finding images like that. Nice Job!

Simple Nature
09-30-2011, 08:17 AM
Go thought Dawson Creek park sometime. It has a lot of unobtrusive underpasses.

What may be part of the problem is that they would rather put money into earthworks to heave the road than some constructive landscaping to allow for the underpass with grade as-is.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ERlpO5uv-Hs/ToXeiCdB3GI/AAAAAAAAFeY/PLBxBXafMbc/s640/DSCN0973.JPG

K'Tesh
09-30-2011, 12:58 PM
What may be part of the problem is that they would rather put money into earthworks to heave the road than some constructive landscaping to allow for the underpass with grade as-is.

We can't leave the road "as is" and get the underpass. The trail "as is" is barely above the water table. Unless we want to deal with a trail that is submerged for most of the year, we need to keep the trail above the water table.

wsbob
09-30-2011, 06:55 PM
The bridge/overpass Simple Nature included a picture of in post #13, is o.k. in terms of height and span (not sure about the looks of the old concrete facing.). It's a little hard to see on the right side of the bridge opening, but I think a bit of the trail is visible. Looks to be a couple feet above the height of the creek. That would be fine for the Hall Blvd crossing, even though probably still subject to periodic flooding.

Simple Nature
09-30-2011, 07:50 PM
There is a small offset waterfall going on under the bridge but since it is man-made, it isn't prone to flooding but it does have its share of runoff muck. Otherwise, yes, the trial is at the water level. From street level, you'd never know you were on a bridge or even a rise.

setha
09-30-2011, 08:31 PM
I used to live off of Sorrento, up until 1992. Even then the Fanno Creek crossing was a topic of discussion.

Here's a link to google earth (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=SW+Greenway+Blvd,+Beaverton,+OR+97008&hl=en&ll=45.456428,-122.801313&spn=0.011846,0.019441&sll=45.456518,-122.801313&sspn=0.023811,0.038881&vpsrc=0&hnear=SW+Greenway+Blvd,+Beaverton,+Washington,+Ore gon+97008&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=45.456514,-122.801315&panoid=0f2FGRFXOr8tgdYU4FA1gA&cbp=12,192.55,,0,-0.1) that shows the trail which goes over Greenway Blvd, which is about a half a mile from the Fanno Creek Trail crossing being discussed. I had thought that this type of treatment for the Fanno trail would be nice, and be possible in terms of getting money to pay for it. I suspect that doing a grade separated crossing for the Hall Blvd roadway would be prohibitively expensive.

Another example of this type of crossing is on Cedar Hills Blvd., here (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=NW+Cedar+Hills+%26+Leahy,+Beaverton,+OR&hl=en&ll=45.525745,-122.792757&spn=0.005915,0.00972&sll=45.456612,-122.801319&sspn=0.001488,0.00243&vpsrc=6&hq=NW+Cedar+Hills+%26+Leahy,&hnear=Beaverton,+Washington,+Oregon&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=45.525745,-122.792757&panoid=grf1Vuca-0gMmQZMxhFXCg&cbp=12,8.54,,0,0).

A problem with both of these examples is that they show the road surface below the grade of the surrounding terrain. For the Fanno Creek trail crossing, a bridge would have to arch up over the trail. And it would have to allow sufficient height so that it would not get hit by a passing truck. That happened once to the Greenway Blvd. crossing, which is possibly why they have the orange bridge height sign on it now.

And a bigger problem with this is that it would syphon money away from a possible fix of Crash Corner, aka Oleson/Scholls/Beaverton-Hillsdale Highway.

K'Tesh
10-04-2011, 10:31 AM
On the lower right corner of the drawing for the underpass, is that a digitally altered photo showing what the underpass option could look like? If so, anyway someone could get that pic posted to this thread?

http://ih.constantcontact.com/fs083/1101618214324/img/199.jpg

I still like your ideas better wsbob.

Dovestrobe
10-04-2011, 11:22 AM
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4024/4313331788_d12de8e7c9.jpg

Reality, Bob...

Just thought you might want to lower your expectations just a little:)

wsbob
10-04-2011, 11:47 AM
K'tesh...comment#18 and pic with that post.... Great work locating that street view of the underpass, a photo of which was used in the presentation!

Looks like the designers did some very nice bas-relief work for the facade of that underpass, depicting natural forms...trees, terrain, people on bikes and so forth. Despite this, the actual underpass passage seems far too vault like, though the slightly arched ceiling and the pleasing way it changes the shape of the underpass entrance is certainly better than a non-arched ceiling would have been.

I would hope the designers for a possible Fanno Creek/Hall Blvd underpass could draw up some ideas for an underpass design that's at least three times the width of the Vancouver trail underpass shown; something airy, that possibly allows light and natural plant forms from the other side of the passage to be seen, as the Central Park bridge designs allow for Central Park. The chances of getting people on board to support the funding for this crossing infrastructure, and to come visit the park seem likely to be much better if what's created is something truly beautiful.

P.S. ...Dovestrobe...not to seem unfriendly, but can we try to be a bit optimistic and determined here? I'm realistic. I understand how, over recent years...and decades, so much infrastructure design has been produced, lacking inspiring aesthetic, reducing it to the level of mere functionality, and as the picture you posted shows...sometimes not even that very well. This is something that should change. Fanno Creek Park is a potentially magnificent verdant urban park. In it's own way, with the care, attention and devotion it's worthy of, the park could rise to the caliber of being one of the grand urban parks of the U.S.

Traffic handling capacity expansion made to Hall Blvd in recent years has already taken away from the experience the park can offer Beaverton and visitors to the park. It's time to get something back for the park and people that will want and need to come visit it in the years to come.

K'Tesh
10-04-2011, 04:11 PM
P.S. ...Dovestrobe...not to seem unfriendly, but can we try to be a bit optimistic and determined here? I'm realistic. I understand how, over recent years...and decades, so much infrastructure design has been produced, lacking inspiring aesthetic, reducing it to the level of mere functionality, and as the picture you posted shows...

He dug (Pun Intended) up one of my old images wsbob... ;)

K'Tesh
01-15-2012, 11:38 PM
Tonight, rather than wait for 45 minutes for a bus to arrive at the Tigard Transit Center, I decided to ride home (31F/0C or colder) with black ice covering everything. I managed to keep myself on the Fanno Creek Trail almost the whole way from Tigard to SW Hall*. I felt the wheel slip on a couple of strokes, but I did what I could to keep a steady pace and not spin out.

When I finally got to SW Hall, I found it to be a skating rink. Worse, more than one car turned into the Albertsons/Arbys parking lot and made me fear that they would loose control and slide into me. When my chance to move finally came, I realized that I'd never be able to ride across that ice, so I dismounted and walked.

Damn! I WANT that tunnel!!! To be able to get across Hall w/o having to play dodge car would be a nice change.

*the one spot I left the trail, I was on a slope that made me fear that I'd fall if I tried to keep my line.

setha
01-16-2012, 07:49 AM
One other thing occurred to me while riding the Fanno Creek Trail during the past few months. It seems like sometimes I'm the only one out there, especially in bad weather or after dark. What happens if the bike slips out from under me, and I go down? How long until someone comes along and calls 911?

Have other people noticed how frequently or infrequently someone happens along, especially at night?

K'Tesh
01-16-2012, 09:23 AM
One other thing occurred to me while riding the Fanno Creek Trail during the past few months. It seems like sometimes I'm the only one out there, especially in bad weather or after dark. What happens if the bike slips out from under me, and I go down? How long until someone comes along and calls 911?

Have other people noticed how frequently or infrequently someone happens along, especially at night?

Wear a helmet, carry a cell phone, and pray.

Simple Nature
01-16-2012, 06:22 PM
Yet one more argument for a recumbenr trike :) ...w/ snowshoes!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-oroCcXtwXUU/TYUypPkQqaI/AAAAAAAADrs/kXkPwYi6u9w/s640/DSCN2831.JPG

wsbob
03-17-2012, 02:22 PM
How to put a Hall Blvd overpass over the Fanno Creek Trail? An Oregonian story about a new bridge over Oregon 213 near Oregon City has a splendid graphic that gives some idea of how that could be done:


http://media.oregonlive.com/oregonian/photo/2012/03/10698010-large.jpg


Hall Blvd, of course, doesn't have an existing overpass under which foundations for an overpass could be built while the overpass span was under construction adjacent to Hall Blvd. That might mean supports for the span under construction would have to be sufficiently strong to support use of the span once it was constructed, in the construction location. Traffic could be diverted onto the new span, and the Hall Blvd alignment could be prepared as needed for the new span to slide into place. Or...Hall Blvd could permanently be left with the bump-out change in alignment.

Most likely very expensive to do. Just how highly do people value this park...today and into the future, is a key question to high quality of crossing will be built.

wsbob
03-22-2012, 06:23 PM
The Oregonian in a story yesterday, reported on the most recent public meeting on a safer transition past Hall Blvd for Fanno Creek Trail users. Plans to select one of the two main options, a bridge or a tunnel, was halted due to concern over projected costs, 5 million and 9 million respectively.


Fanno Creek Trail crossing is put on hold after cost estimates soar (http://www.oregonlive.com/beaverton/index.ssf/2012/03/fanno_creek_trail_crossing_put.html)

"... The estimated $2 million and $3 million price tags attached only a few months ago to the bridge and tunnel, respectively, have risen to $5 million and $9 million, according to staff reports. ..." dana tims/oregonian

The story doesn't detail reasons why the costs 'soared' ...just that they apparently have.

The story also reminds us that City of Beaverton is working with THPRD ... Tualatin Hills Park & Recreation District on this because it's a park crossing a road in Beaverton. Beav Mayor Denny Doyle is reported to have moved to adjourn the meeting because there was no consensus.

Disappointing is that neither in the O story or THPRD's website page are there posted conceptual renderings of what the two options could be best expected to look like for the anticipated costs. This leaves people being expected to make a decision, having very little idea of what's to be had for the money. Wikipedia's brief page for overpasses has a few interesting bits of information...in the UK, they're referred to as 'Flyovers'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpass

wsbob
07-02-2012, 12:29 AM
June 27 was the date of the Oregonian's most recent story on the saga of arriving at some kind of improved crossing of Hall Blvd for visitors to the Fanno Creek Regional Trail:

Fanno Creek Trail moves forward with mid-block crossing at Hall Boulevard/Fong/Oregonian (http://www.oregonlive.com/beaverton/index.ssf/2012/06/fanno_creek_trail_moves_forwar.html)

Some of bikeportland's regular readers appear to have posted comments to that story, making for a fairly lively review of the situation, which inevitably questions the justification for spending money on a more accessible mid-block safe crossing, rather than the 1000' round trip required from the park, up to the Greenway intersection and back to the park to allow park visitors to resume their travel along this linear park trail.

Contradictory assumptions appear to have accompanied thoughts and decisions about what type of crossing for the park would be adequate or desirable for this particular intersection of park and heavily used road. Money is tight, so obviously, many people would not like money to be unnecessarily spent on infrastructure that isn't needed, or that would effectively be somewhat of a duplication of infrastructure that already exists, i.e., ...the Greenway intersection.

Is it even worth spending any money, even as much as a single dime, to create a mid-block crossing for the Fanno Creek Regional Trail at the obstacle Hall Blvd poses to it? Answering that should oblige asking just what Fanno Creek Regional Trail Park is, now, and what it will become as years go by. My guess, is that increasingly, many, many more people will be relying on this park's unique linear design for respite from the hustle-bustle of busy city life and dealing with road traffic. They don't need, nor will it be a benefit to the community to expect and oblige them...young and old, strong and frail alike...when visiting the park, to have to bop up along busy Hall Blvd to loop around and back into the park using Greenway.

In the O article, reference is made to concerns about a reduction of motor vehicle traffic flow that the comparatively low-end mid-block crossing consisting of a "... "high-intensity activated crosswalk": Trail users would push a button, causing a signal to flash yellow, then red. ...". Estimated cost? Vague, but from the story and comments to it...perhaps somewhere between $100,000 and $400,000; in other words...a ton of bucks.

Concern about a reduction of motor vehicle traffic flow that an at grade mid-block crossing might result in, is where, so to speak...the rubber hits the road. Story tells of the park district worrying about spending the 400 thou, only to possibly have ODOT eventually tell them: 'Nah...sorry...it's backing up too much road traffic, got to shut that mid-block signal down.'.

In this situation, whose priorities trump whose? It's our road and our park.

lynnef
07-02-2012, 07:06 AM
Bob, it is difficult to tell where you are coming from.

The O page isn't loading, but I feel compelled to point out that the crossing will be synchronized with the existing traffic lights. In addition, the at-grade crossing will require the LEAST modification of the existing roadway. As in, add crossing.

Compliance with using the Greenway intersection to cross is very low, and, even with the signals and marked crosswalk, is still a dangerous crossing.

Don't forget that those in wheelchairs also want this crossing. Not just cyclists.

wsbob
07-02-2012, 10:52 AM
Bob, it is difficult to tell where you are coming from.

The O page isn't loading, but I feel compelled to point out that the crossing will be synchronized with the existing traffic lights. In addition, the at-grade crossing will require the LEAST modification of the existing roadway. As in, add crossing.

Compliance with using the Greenway intersection to cross is very low, and, even with the signals and marked crosswalk, is still a dangerous crossing.

Don't forget that those in wheelchairs also want this crossing. Not just cyclists.


"Bob, it is difficult to tell where you are coming from. ..." lynnef


Lat at night, I wore out before finishing a thorough explanation of my thoughts on this most recent development in the handling of a safer crossing. Also, I've touched on some of them in in earlier posts. Issues surrounding the park, what it is, what it should be recognized as being, and how it might best be developed accordingly seem to me to be very important issues, more important than people generally may be taking them.

I certainly do favor the mid-block yellow-with red light signal that's being planned, over no official improved safety crossing at this point that would leave visitors to the park to walk up to Greenway or risk a major collision crossing mid-block without a signal.

Though the signal would be an improvement over the existing situation, it's barely sufficient to allow the park to fulfill its role to the community. The high price tag for either bridge or tunnel option, shouldn't be keeping people from seeing the importance of being able to travel through the park without crossing the road.

The wood bridge crossing doesn't sound sufficient. Raising the road and creating a tunnel would be the option most consistent with the concept and aesthetics of the park. It's a lot of money...sure. Look at this way...if instead of the park, it was the road to which many millions of dollars needed to be spent to support the passage of an increased number of cars, officials would most likely be putting all their effort into that challenge...just as they do when it comes to moving rural reserve lands into urban reserve lands...or seeking to build a new bridge over the Columbia River.

(p.s. ...click on the link for O story again...I tried it this morning and it loaded up.)

DaveT
07-20-2012, 11:17 AM
The Beaverton City Council voted last week to back the mid-block crossing plan; the Oregonian article says it "could be finished by 2013".

http://www.oregonlive.com/beaverton/index.ssf/2012/07/beaverton_city_council_backs_d.html

Simple Nature
07-20-2012, 02:15 PM
Care to lay odds? I see a crossing coming... none of the others are attractive to me. The raised road is ugly and the bridges are very expensive. A few signs; a couple of lights; and a center island is sufficient... it is a "midstreet crosswalk" which they hate doing but I think they already know it is the only choice they really have.

Told Ya! :)