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angrypedestrian
08-28-2006, 09:56 PM
I'm curious why an increasing percentage of bikers do not feel they have to obey the laws of the road or even common courtesy. Several times in the past week or two as I walk down the sidewalk I've almost been hit by a biker who is weaving in and out, between pedestrians or back and forth between the sidewalk and the street.

I've observed similar actions when I'm driving. Bicyclists continually breeze through red lights and stop signs and expect everyone else to stop and wait.

You might get a little more respect if you started acting respectable. You would probably be looked upon more favorably if you took actions to help the regular and expedient flow of traffic rather than organizing demonstrations to tie up traffic.

A couple of questions:
1. Have I just run into every idiot biker on the roads in Portland or have you noticed more rude bike behavior?

2. What are you doing to encourage the responsible (and discourage the disruptive) use of bicycles?

CyclePsycho
08-28-2006, 10:23 PM
In MANY aspects, I completely agree with you on your observances. I have just recently bought my first road bike and am still adjusting to some things. Fortunately, there's one thing I do not have to adjust to: operating a transportation vehicle. I dont J-walk, and I dont run red lights...I'm not about to begin while on two wheels either.
I agree that more responsible cycling habits would benefit the cycling community as a whole especially in the eyes of competing traffic! We all have it tough enough.
Cheers!

bootpdx
08-29-2006, 12:02 PM
While I agree with you that there are bikers who do, for some unknown reason, ride on the sidewalk when they should be on the road or breeeze through stop signs when they should stop, there are also many bikers who obey the law and act responsibly. I thnik it is natural to notice the "bad seeds" and not notice the law abiding riders.

Unfortunately, a bad driver can cause much more damage and, in my experience, is more apt to be in a hurry and make a mistake. I have witnessed countless numbers of drivers breezing through stop signs because they are in a hurry or just clueless. Plus it is a heck of a lot easier to stomp on a gas pedal and whiz around town than it is for a biker who actually has to pedal and get up to speed.

Medic_Pilot
08-29-2006, 05:55 PM
No shortage of idiots on bikes or in cars. Both can contribute to the circumstances that lead to their untimely meeting.

I think the key for the bike riders who obviously are at a size disadvantage are to do everything they can to prevent an incident (bright clothing, obeying traffic laws, observing traffic, etc) and protect themselves in the event of an actual crash (like wearing helmets).

We can groan about the cars all we want. But at the end of the day, there is nothing that is going to remove cars from our streets. I do believe that continually putting the message out through media outlets with regard to sharing the road helps. Obviously the efforts of this forum/blog, as well as many other groups, help to make that happen. Great job!

Please be careful out there!

sunningotter
08-29-2006, 09:09 PM
As a regular bike commuter (from Vancouver to Portland), I certainly see my share of ill-mannered road users (of all varieties). Yes, it does take extra time to come to a complete stop; but then, I'm not riding against the clock on the way to work. Yes, the day-glow vest and helmet reflectors may not look cool or may ruin the pro look you are grooming. However, not getting to ride because you were run over by a half-asleep driver also tends to ruin the vibe. Finally, how can you look your kids in the eye when instructing them in the rules of the road (for any transport method, be it foot, bike, or auto) if you don't yourself follow the rules. BTW, this includes helmet usage!

As a post-note thought, any suggestions of how we can kindly urge our fellow riders to follow those rules without sounding like a scolding parent?

jami
08-30-2006, 09:00 AM
"You might get a little more respect if you started acting respectable. "

Your use of the second person here is problematic, angry. Basically, you've accused every person who reads your complaint of not acting respectable. I'm surprised anyone has bothered to reply to such a blatant insult.

Haven_kd7yct
08-30-2006, 12:01 PM
Some good thoughts here, but to me it appears that the main question is, how to reach the "casual" bike riders and teach them the rules of the road, bike-style???

And, angrypedestrian, how about those walkers who step off the curb without looking around as to what's coming at them, or wander around paying attention to anything else but the other road-users?? Or not picking up after their dog makes poopie on the trail? Not to attack pedestrians, just pointing out that sometimes peds are no better than the rogue bicyclists.

RobCat
09-01-2006, 12:32 PM
There are some truly arrogant, stupid people on bikes, no doubt. Thing is, since you can't expect these morons to behave any better piloting a motor-vehicle...aren't ya glad they're at least on bikes and not driving? :rolleyes:

On a serious note: I work near the intersection of Waterfront and SE Caruthers, and the street is chock-a-block with city vehicles and heavy equipment working on the Big Pipe. The workers are having one Hell of a time with the clueless twits blowing stop signs at both ends and ignoring the flaggers. We are going to have a serious injury or a death right outside our doors any day now; I hope I'm wrong, but it seems inevitable.

PeteJacobsen
09-01-2006, 11:46 PM
My personal experience is that more than half the bicycle riders in Portland do not stop for stop signs unless there is another vehicle at the intersection. A very large number don't even appear to slow down. I've been on several big organized rides where the brochures always say, "we will obey all traffic laws!", but the riders simply follow the rider in front of them apparently assuming "well, it was safe for them!" They just do the route, regardless of who has the right of way.

My further personal experience is that riders in a group almost never stop for stop signs. I don't know why - perhaps it only takes one to ignore the sign, and the others just tag along. The why isn't important.

I know that running a stop sign at 10mph after looking both ways on approach is probably quite safe. (It would also be safe for a car to do that.) It is, however, against the law, and it irritates the heck out of the rest of the community. We collectively should not be surprised when we are not appreciated.

Erik H.
09-23-2006, 08:26 AM
One wonderful aspect of bicycles is that we are free to communicate to each other with words rather than obnoxious horns or middle fingers. Last night, for example, I was on my bike stopping at the 4-way stop at SE 34th and Lincoln. There were cars also stopping from two other directions. As we were quickly assessing who had the right-of-way, two bicyclists ride from behind one of the stopped cars through the intersection without stopping. I yelled "Nice stop!" Not sure if they heard me, but next time I'm going to be prepared to express my discontent. Perhaps me yelling will not change their habits but I hope it proved to the car-drivers that not all bicyclists are irresponsible.

Is it just me or do most renegade cyclists seem to be riding single-speeds and fixies? What's that all about?

donnambr
09-23-2006, 10:27 AM
Is it just me or do most renegade cyclists seem to be riding single-speeds and fixies? What's that all about?

Maybe it's just the ones you are noticing. I see all kinds of people of all ages on all kinds of bikes fail to obey traffic laws and rules of the road. Perhaps they have different rationalizations for their decisions, but I was just as nearly hit by the hipster on a fixie as I was the office commuter on a Trek.

TCR Punk
09-23-2006, 04:44 PM
I'm curious why an increasing percentage of bikers do not feel they have to obey the laws of the road or even common courtesy. Several times in the past week or two as I walk down the sidewalk I've almost been hit by a biker who is weaving in and out, between pedestrians or back and forth between the sidewalk and the street.

I've observed similar actions when I'm driving. Bicyclists continually breeze through red lights and stop signs and expect everyone else to stop and wait.

You might get a little more respect if you started acting respectable. You would probably be looked upon more favorably if you took actions to help the regular and expedient flow of traffic rather than organizing demonstrations to tie up traffic.

A couple of questions:
1. Have I just run into every idiot biker on the roads in Portland or have you noticed more rude bike behavior?

2. What are you doing to encourage the responsible (and discourage the disruptive) use of bicycles?


Are you the same person that cuts in at the front of the merge lane, instead of waiting like everyone else. Or that driver who thinks the conversation on the cell phone while driving is the most important thing to do behind the wheel. Deal with it. I'm not gonna answer your stupid questions. Bicyclists on the street isn't the problem with todays traffic. It's the people driving their cars. Why do you think your auto insurance rates keep rising? Hang up and drive, and keep taking it in ass every time you pull in to refuel your car. I'll bicycle on by with my middle finger up, waving at you. I respect the earth. You're probably that person thats chewing on the "Big Mac" in the McDonald's parking lot, idling your car, while getting fatter. Keep thinking cyclists are the problem, while you're polluting the earth, slowly killing yourself on McDonalds, stressing on the bicyclist riding by, while you're stuck in traffic, because some person on cell phone forgot to merge a mile back so they just cut everyone else off trying to exit the freeway.

Kitsune06
09-23-2006, 05:03 PM
"All the posters here seem to be saints!"

...honestly, there aren't a whole lot of posters here, and of those, there *ARE* a few who have said "The laws are made by drivers, and aren't made to protect us" to us "hippies"...

That said, I'm thinking an awful lot of the folks who will just bomb down the street, not wear protective gear, etc, are not the types to be on forums chatting with other bike folk. They seem most often to be folks who just don't have a car, or just happen to have an old bike and use it to get around b/c they don't have to pay to park, etc.

just my thoughts.

TCR Punk
09-23-2006, 06:13 PM
"All the posters here seem to be saints!"

They seem most often to be folks who just don't have a car, or just happen to have an old bike and use it to get around b/c they don't have to pay to park, etc.

just my thoughts.


I have 2 road bikes (1975 trek touring bike and 2005 Giant TCR 2), and a 2001 Ford Ranger with a 3 inch lift, sitting on 32 inch tires. But, i choose not to drive to work, or anywhere else for that matter. I have it to drive to those hard to reach places like the (place favorite vacation spot here)....

mquetel
09-24-2006, 07:29 AM
Is it just me or do most renegade cyclists seem to be riding single-speeds and fixies? What's that all about?

It's just you.

donnambr
09-24-2006, 01:20 PM
Bicyclists on the street isn't the problem with todays traffic. It's the people driving their cars. Why do you think your auto insurance rates keep rising? Hang up and drive, and keep taking it in ass every time you pull in to refuel your car. I'll bicycle on by with my middle finger up, waving at you. I respect the earth. You're probably that person thats chewing on the "Big Mac" in the McDonald's parking lot, idling your car, while getting fatter. Keep thinking cyclists are the problem, while you're polluting the earth, slowly killing yourself on McDonalds, stressing on the bicyclist riding by, while you're stuck in traffic, cause some person on cell phone forgot to merge a mile back so they just cut everyone else off trying to exit the freeway.

But what does this person in a car have to do with the 4 people on bikes that nearly hit me this summer? 3 of them completely blew through stop signs after I had entered the intersections and one ran a red while I was moving on a green. I only had 1 near miss with a car in the same time period. I may not have been killed or as seriously injured as if I had been hit by a car, but I would not have been able to afford repairs to my bike unless the other person had auto insurance that would have covered it.

On the plus side, I noticed that most of those bikers disappeared from the streets when we had the rain last week. So, I'm hopeful for a winter of fewer scofflaw bikers.

Medic_Pilot
09-24-2006, 02:09 PM
One wonderful aspect of bicycles is that we are free to communicate to each other with words rather than obnoxious horns or middle fingers. Last night, for example, I was on my bike stopping at the 4-way stop at SE 34th and Lincoln. There were cars also stopping from two other directions. As we were quickly assessing who had the right-of-way, two bicyclists ride from behind one of the stopped cars through the intersection without stopping. I yelled "Nice stop!" Not sure if they heard me, but next time I'm going to be prepared to express my discontent. Perhaps me yelling will not change their habits but I hope it proved to the car-drivers that not all bicyclists are irresponsible.

Is it just me or do most renegade cyclists seem to be riding single-speeds and fixies? What's that all about?


Don't worry, those cyclists will get theirs in the end. Probably involving a car sitting on top of their chest or something like that.

Then we can post on the forum here and people can bitch about how it really is the car's fault, even though the bicyclist broke the law...

Kitsune06
09-24-2006, 03:41 PM
I have 2 road bikes (1975 trek touring bike and 2005 Giant TCR 2), and a 2001 Ford Ranger with a 3 inch lift, sitting on 32 inch tires. But, i choose not to drive to work, or anywhere else for that matter. I have it to drive to those hard to reach places like the (place favorite vacation spot here)....

Hm. Must not have come ou the way I intended. I meant to imply that the folks here are the folks who seem to care about the biking community, its workings, etc.

People who don't (at all) most likely wouldn't find themselves here discussing the social and political repercussions of their actions on the road.

I have my mtn bike ('03 women's rockhopper with smoothy tires and rack for commuting) and an '01 Dodge Neon with cold air intake, turbocharger, custom exhaust system, (insert bells and whistles here) but I only take it out when I'm going to work at night (10 miles at night does not appeal to me) or when I have a special occasion, so I know what you're takling about.

Just saying that Joebob or the random 3-4 teens on BMX bikes zipping around Hillsboro etc w/o helmets or lights at night, p*ssing off drivers and bicyclists alike, would not likely be found on this forum discussing just why it p*sses people off to have a pack of teens zip across an intersection on a red light, and have some poor driver just about hit them because they're practically invisible.

FixForLife
09-24-2006, 05:23 PM
Don't worry, those cyclists will get theirs in the end. Probably involving a car sitting on top of their chest or something like that.

Then we can post on the forum here and people can bitch about how it really is the car's fault, even though the bicyclist broke the law...
wow, you are fucking ASSHOLE! dude, how many people have died in the past summer? and you are making comments like that. fuck you!

Kitsune06
09-24-2006, 05:30 PM
It's harsh, but I'll be d*mned if it isn't in some way true.

Most of the people who've been killed have been obeying laws and were killed just minding their own business, but yeah, cyclists who run reds and aren't careful will eventually end up on the slab, and it'll be all the rest of us saying "It was the driver's fault!!!"
...whether or not the cyclist was biking with his head up his ***.

We all want to defend our own kind- it's what a community is for, but I'll be d*mned if it's not unfair to drivers for us to unilaterally side with cyclists, regardless of their riding practices.

I say, yeah, If the guy isn't careful, runs reds, doesn't follow accepted laws, can't wear protective gear, and ends up with a tireprint across his chest, well, them's the breaks. Darwinism, man.

FixForLife
09-24-2006, 06:19 PM
well then, when i see you under a car, i'll just ride away.

Medic_Pilot
09-24-2006, 07:52 PM
Whatever FixForLife,

Do you even bother to read the posts before you fire off?

Nowhere does my comments mention the recent fatalities, which are tragic. Instead you completely miss the point.

I won't even try to re-state what I was trying to say. Maybe you should go back and read it carefully.

BTW, your choice of language speaks volumes about your maturity.

TCR Punk
09-24-2006, 10:59 PM
Don't worry, those cyclists will get theirs in the end. Probably involving a car sitting on top of their chest or something like that.

Then we can post on the forum here and people can bitch about how it really is the car's fault, even though the bicyclist broke the law...



Thats just out of line dude. Have a little taste.

Haven_kd7yct
09-25-2006, 08:53 AM
"Just because i choose to ride my bike, which is a right, not a privilege like driving a car, doesn't mean i need to help the bad apples that you're talking about."

Um. Nowhere does it say that you have the right to ride a bike.

Nowhere does it say that you have a right to drive a car, also.

And it also doesn't say that you have the right to walk.

However, if you have accepted the privelege of riding, or driving, or walking, then you have also accepted the responsibility to obey the rules of the road.

It sounds like there is a certain faction, for lack of a better word, of bike-riders who haven't accepted that responsibility.

Of course, until the legislature mandates some sort of written test of the rules of the road for bikers and walkers, I don't see how anyone can police this. And I can just see how well *that* would fly.

Seriously, though. I have an '06 Schwinn SuperSport GTS, my commuting ride. I also have an '06 Subaru Forester, that I drive when I've got a bunch of places to be during the day, or things to deliver places (last haul: 14 mounted and unmounted rally tires from Tigard to West Linn).

I've accepted the fact that as a rider and a driver, I've got to follow a set of rules. It's only my fellow road users' sense of responsibility that keeps them following the same rules. Common courtesy and all that.

I'm not trying to be some sanctimonious bike rider b*tch who's going to preach about one sweet world, hand in hand in hand, and all that. I just want to ride knowing that I can have some expectation of getting the same treatment and respect as a rider that I get as a driver. Maybe even better treatment when I'm riding.

Matt P.
09-25-2006, 12:27 PM
And it also doesn't say that you have the right to walk.

However, if you have accepted the privelege of riding, or driving, or walking, then you have also accepted the responsibility to obey the rules of the road.


The right to walk is implied by the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution. (the right to liberty, freedom of assembly) Liberty implies lack of physical restraint, freedom to assemble implies that one can somehow move to the point of assembly.

I agree on the other statements, except for obeying the laws of the road - if you are a pedestrian, and you stay off the roads, you have no such responsibility. (Granted, staying off the roads is practically impossible unless you live in the wilderness)

It seems nitpicky, but if you're on private property (a driveway, perhaps) and a car hits you (as a pedestrian), you are not responsible for following the rules of the road - they don't apply on private property.

Caveat - I am not a lawyer, so I welcome correction from those who are.

FixForLife
09-25-2006, 02:07 PM
Thats just out of line dude. Have a little taste.
thank you, i didn't think i read that one wrong. i'm glad someone else caught that one

FixForLife
09-25-2006, 02:13 PM
Don't worry, those cyclists will get theirs in the end. Probably involving a car sitting on top of their chest or something like that.

Then we can post on the forum here and people can bitch about how it really is the car's fault, even though the bicyclist broke the law...
some guy talking on a cell phone cut me off, he'll get his and die in a car wreck and take some other people out talking on their cells while driving. because you know what, they will get theirs in the end!

is that what you typed or was someone else on your computer? NO ONE FUCKING DESERVES TO GET RUN OVER!! how hard is that for you to get your head around.

FixForLife
09-25-2006, 02:17 PM
It's harsh, but I'll be d*mned if it isn't in some way true.

Most of the people who've been killed have been obeying laws and were killed just minding their own business, but yeah, cyclists who run reds and aren't careful will eventually end up on the slab, and it'll be all the rest of us saying "It was the driver's fault!!!"
...whether or not the cyclist was biking with his head up his ***.

We all want to defend our own kind- it's what a community is for, but I'll be d*mned if it's not unfair to drivers for us to unilaterally side with cyclists, regardless of their riding practices.

I say, yeah, If the guy isn't careful, runs reds, doesn't follow accepted laws, can't wear protective gear, and ends up with a tireprint across his chest, well, them's the breaks. Darwinism, man.

it's not being harsh, it saying 'so what'. not defending 'our own' but saying you need to be careful or that will happen not 'that's what they get'. that's bullshit

Mung
09-25-2006, 02:24 PM
My how quickly words beget sticks and stones. The simple truth is, yes, bike riding is a right, almost anyone can do it. But, when you ride on a road/street, at least in this state/city, you are responsible for following the rules of the road, i.e. laws. If you choose to disregard these rules/laws you are being irresponsible to your community and to yourself. If Portland is ever to be a bike friendly city we all have to take responsibility for our actions, bikers, walkers, and drivers.

Medic_Pilot
09-25-2006, 04:02 PM
NO ONE FUCKING DESERVES TO GET RUN OVER!!

So what you're saying then is that nobody is responsible for the death of a cyclist who runs a stop sign and gets hit by a truck?

And, just because i don't feel like stepping up and telling a grown person how to act on the mean streets of portland, doesn't mean i deserve to have Dodge Ram parked on my chest.

Nobody said that anybody deserves anything here, Tim. Just don't give us that feigned look of surprise when you're involved in a wreck that you have caused.

Haven_kd7yct
09-25-2006, 04:07 PM
Okay, so I was incorrect in saying that it isn't written that everyone has the right to walk; they do.

And while I don't fully agree, sure, by interpretation (and due to lack of licensing), people could have the right to bike.

But I still maintain that if you're going to be out on the public streets, walking or biking or driving, you have the RESPONSIBILITY (and have to accept that responsibility) to know the laws of the public roads and follow them.

Yeah, I know... "but a lot of the drivers aren't"; which reminds me of "but all my friends are doing it" to which my mother always said, "if all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you do it too?"

:)

How about, if you don't want to follow the rules of the road while on the public roads, then stay off the public roads? :)

knary
09-25-2006, 04:53 PM
Inalienable right to bike? WTF

It's a bike. Enjoy it. Love it. Ride it as much as you can. Do so within the bounds of the laws (as best you can). It is a way of life for many and a way to a better life for even more. It's also a great solution to some of the problems that plague different communities. But let's keep a little perspective here. There is no inalienable right to ride a bicycle any more than there's an inalienable right to any other particular form of transportation. If you follow that argument down the inevitable path, driving is a right. Remember, what laws exist or don't has nothing to do with what is a right.

Mung
09-25-2006, 05:50 PM
Inalienable right to bike? WTF

It's a bike. Enjoy it. Love it. Ride it as much as you can. Do so within the bounds of the laws (as best you can). It is a way of life for many and a way to a better life for even more. It's also a great solution to some of the problems that plague different communities. But let's keep a little perspective here. There is no inalienable right to ride a bicycle any more than there's an inalienable right to any other particular form of transportation. If you follow that argument down the inevitable path, driving is a right. Remember, what laws exist or don't has nothing to do with what is a right.
If you follow that argument down the inevitable path, driving is a right.

Sorry to bust the bubble but driving is a privilege based on the individual accepting the responsiblility and meeting the requirements of the state, i.e. applying for, taking the tests, obeying the laws, obtaining insurance, to receive a license. If it were a right you wouldn't need a license.

knary
09-25-2006, 06:01 PM
Again, what you need to do according to the state has nothing to do with what is or isn't a right. That's sort of the point of the word "inalienable". Rights do not come from the state. Further, that a state might regulate or restrict a behavior doesn't make it any more or any less of a right. Seen another way: if the state defined what is and isn't a right, it wouldn't be possible for the state to infringe upon an individual's rights.

dan
09-25-2006, 06:11 PM
i really find it amazing (not to mention nauseating) that so many of you are preaching to others about how they should be riding their bicycle. oh wait..."but it's the law...we have to follow the law". then you follow the law. if the draft got reinstated, i guess you'd be the people telling me i was unamerican for not going to war. and of course you'd go if the law said you must, right? i, like many others, don't allow "the law" to trump my own common sense and decision making skills. if you do, that's fine, but will you please shut the fuck up and leave everyone else alone? seriously. oh, and since most of you drive as well, i would love to see you chase some car down and give them your spiel about "the law" if they roll through a stop.

oh yeah, hey medic_pilot, will you please post a picture of yourself? that way, if i ever see some car run a stop and crush you, i'll laugh and tell you to call for johnny law. good luck with that. and remember not to act to crazy, even if you're in pain, because they might just shoot you.

yeah, the law.

TCR Punk
09-25-2006, 06:43 PM
Quote: Originally Posted by FixForLife
NO ONE FUCKING DESERVES TO GET RUN OVER!!


So what you're saying then is that nobody is responsible for the death of a cyclist who runs a stop sign and gets hit by a truck?


Dude, how can you see that from the one sentince. Hey Medic_Pilot, get a dictionary, look up the meaning of the word "deserve." And shut the fuck up! "No one fucking deserves to get run over!!," is such a simple and complete sentince. I wonder how you can't comprehend such a simple statement. It's beyond me. Please explain. No wait!! I don't want to know.

Rixtir
09-25-2006, 07:20 PM
The right to walk is implied by the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution. (the right to liberty, freedom of assembly) Liberty implies lack of physical restraint, freedom to assemble implies that one can somehow move to the point of assembly.

I agree on the other statements, except for obeying the laws of the road - if you are a pedestrian, and you stay off the roads, you have no such responsibility. (Granted, staying off the roads is practically impossible unless you live in the wilderness)

It seems nitpicky, but if you're on private property (a driveway, perhaps) and a car hits you (as a pedestrian), you are not responsible for following the rules of the road - they don't apply on private property.

Caveat - I am not a lawyer, so I welcome correction from those who are.Keep in mind that no right is absolute. For example, let's assume for the sake of argument that you have the right to walk. That doesn't mean you have the right to walk in a traffic lane on I-5, or into the bank vault uninvited, or into a secure military facility. All rights are subject to some degree of restriction.

Rixtir
09-25-2006, 07:23 PM
If you follow that argument down the inevitable path, driving is a right.

Sorry to bust the bubble but driving is a privilege based on the individual accepting the responsiblility and meeting the requirements of the state, i.e. applying for, taking the tests, obeying the laws, obtaining insurance, to receive a license. If it were a right you wouldn't need a license.The state can at any time it chooses decide to require cyclists to be licensed. The fact that it hasn't decided to do that shouldn't be offered up as proof that bicycling is a right.

Kitsune06
09-25-2006, 07:28 PM
Hm, no, I guess what's implied here is that someone can go blasting through intersections and virtually ride in circles in the middle of the road, up a one-way street against traffic, dash in front of cars, etc etc, but when, god forbid, some driver hits them, it's all the driver's fault, because the cyclist in no way deserved to be hit.
The whole biking community is then in mourning and goes to the public about enforcing laws for drivers, etc, and we get to p*ss and moan about how we lost some 'valuable' contributor to society.
BS.

Tell you what, guys, when you see me blatantly disregard the rules that are laid out by the state to protect me and I get crushed as a result of this disregard, ride on by, because I've thereby forfeited my right to contribute to society, and have cashed in my breeding points in the Darwin game. :rolleyes:

Rixtir
09-25-2006, 07:46 PM
Hm, no, I guess what's implied here is that someone can go blasting through intersections and virtually ride in circles in the middle of the road, up a one-way street against traffic, dash in front of cars, etc etc, but when, god forbid, some driver hits them, it's all the driver's fault, because the cyclist in no way deserved to be hit.
The whole biking community is then in mourning and goes to the public about enforcing laws for drivers, etc, and we get to p*ss and moan about how we lost some 'valuable' contributor to society.
BS.

Tell you what, guys, when you see me blatantly disregard the rules that are laid out by the state to protect me and I get crushed as a result of this disregard, ride on by, because I've thereby forfeited my right to contribute to society, and have cashed in my breeding points in the Darwin game. :rolleyes:Aside from the injustice of dragging some innocent motorist into their ego trip, from the standpoint of the cyclist's own legal interests, it's just plain stupid to cause an accident. Not because it's "against the law," not because it's painful, or even fatal, but because if you were in violation of the law, and the driver wasn't negligent, you will be held liable for the damages that result from that accident. Among other things, that means you might not be entitled to damages for pain and suffering, lost wages, if you die your survivors won't be entitled to damages...

Your lawyer can't help you in court if you won't follow the basic rules in the street. It's easy to be healthy and say you don't care, but when your body is broken and you can't work, your perspective changes. But by then, it's too late, and there's nothing your lawyer can do to turn back the clock and make it so you weren't negligent.

dan
09-25-2006, 07:48 PM
Hm, no, I guess what's implied here is that someone can go blasting through intersections and virtually ride in circles in the middle of the road, up a one-way street against traffic, dash in front of cars, etc etc, but when, god forbid, some driver hits them, it's all the driver's fault, because the cyclist in no way deserved to be hit.

hey kitsune...i just went back through all of the posts on this thread, and no one said anything even remotely implying that. who said that? huh? show me and i'll give you my bike. and by the way, in case you didn't notice, all of the deaths this summer were caused by cars at fault, not bikers. when did someone blow a stop, get hit, and blame the driver? if i run a stop sign and get hit, i'm not going to blame the other person. but oh yeah, maybe i should mention (since you clearly do not understand) that i wouldn't run a stop sign if couldn't see that no one was coming. i don't think many (any?) people do that. who wants to die? maybe you should give people credit for being intelligent enough to make their own decisions, without blindly following some law that was NOT made to protect them. and maybe you should stop making assumptions about what other people do and think, when you truly have no clue. you should definitely do that.

Rixtir
09-25-2006, 07:57 PM
maybe you should give people credit for being intelligent enough to make their own decisions, without blindly following some law that was NOT made to protect them.But that's the point you're missing-- the law does protect you. If you're riding in observance of the law, you're not negligent, at least as far as the requirement to observe the law, in an accident. Observing the law protects you in court (and I don't mean traffic court, although it obviously keeps you out of traffic court as well), whether you agree that it protects you in the street or not.

dan
09-25-2006, 08:07 PM
i agree, the law does protect you in court. i interpreted kitsune's statement to mean physically protection (like how crosswalks "protect" pedestrians). that wasn't my point though...regardless of that, if i want to run every 4way stop i come across, that my call. not someone else's. i'm just sick of people preaching here about how everyone should be riding(like them, duh...). yeah, if you run a stop and get hit, it's your own fault. no one ever denied that. but if you want to do it, it's not for others to judge.

Medic_Pilot
09-25-2006, 09:25 PM
Quote: Originally Posted by FixForLife
NO ONE FUCKING DESERVES TO GET RUN OVER!!

Dude, how can you see that from the one sentince. Hey Medic_Pilot, get a dictionary, look up the meaning of the word "deserve." And shut the fuck up! "No one fucking deserves to get run over!!," is such a simple and complete sentince. I wonder how you can't comprehend such a simple statement. It's beyond me. Please explain. No wait!! I don't want to know.

Ask and you shall receive:

de‧serve  /dɪ-zurv/ -served, -serv‧ing.

–verb (used with object) 1. to merit, be qualified for, or have a claim to (reward, assistance, punishment, etc.) because of actions, qualities, or situation.

"Deserve" was not actually one of the words that I used, but it could fit. I don't know. It doesn't matter.

If you want to ride your bike in a manner that could eventually lead to your serious injury or worse, I could not care less. You're a grown-up (probably) and you can make the big decisions.

My only point from the beginning of this has been that if, god forbid, a rider should find him/herself in a wreck that they caused, then don't expect to find sympathy or start blaming others. Riders should take responsibility for their actions. And I have seen posted on this Forum and on other cycling blogs riders who do exactly what I have described.

Is riding a bike a right or a privledge? I don't know. But it is not an activity free of responsiblities.

Let the F bombs begin... :cool:

dan
09-25-2006, 09:39 PM
My only point from the beginning of this has been that if, god forbid, a rider should find him/herself in a wreck that they caused, then don't expect to find sympathy or start blaming others. Riders should take responsibility for their actions. And I have seen posted on this Forum and on other cycling blogs riders who do exactly what I have described.

If someone has posted on this forum a crash caused by their negligence(ie running a stop), please show us where. Quote it.

No one ran a stop, or went the wrong way down a one-way, or anything else like that, caused an accident, and blamed the driver. No one does that. Stop making shit up dude.

Rixtir
09-25-2006, 09:54 PM
What I've seen elsewhere on the net is a general tendency to automatically assume that if a cyclist is involved in a collision with a motorist, the motorist is at fault, especially where the facts of the incident are unknown.

Kitsune06
09-25-2006, 10:55 PM
Dude, how can you see that from the one sentince. Hey Medic_Pilot, get a dictionary, look up the meaning of the word "deserve." And shut the fuck up! "No one fucking deserves to get run over!!," is such a simple and complete sentince. I wonder how you can't comprehend such a simple statement. It's beyond me. Please explain. No wait!! I don't want to know.

Not saying "If they bike like an *ss, they deserve to die" but "If they cause an accident, don't b*tch for sympathy."

Keep in mind that no right is absolute. For example, let's assume for the sake of argument that you have the right to walk. That doesn't mean you have the right to walk in a traffic lane on I-5, or into the bank vault uninvited, or into a secure military facility. All rights are subject to some degree of restriction.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Aside from the injustice of dragging some innocent motorist into their ego trip, from the standpoint of the cyclist's own legal interests, it's just plain stupid to cause an accident. Not because it's "against the law," not because it's painful, or even fatal, but because if you were in violation of the law, and the driver wasn't negligent, you will be held liable for the damages that result from that accident. Among other things, that means you might not be entitled to damages for pain and suffering, lost wages, if you die your survivors won't be entitled to damages...

Your lawyer can't help you in court if you won't follow the basic rules in the street. It's easy to be healthy and say you don't care, but when your body is broken and you can't work, your perspective changes. But by then, it's too late, and there's nothing your lawyer can do to turn back the clock and make it so you weren't negligent.

This also. I was in a car accident this summer (with a negligent driver) and my insurance company and the police sided with me because I was following all the laws. Had I been speeding, not paying attention, etc etc, I would've been SOL and the $2k of damage to my car would've had to be repaired out of pocket. The Law won't protect me physically, but it will protect me in the court of law, and it'll protect my rights.

If I'm a bicyclist and I'm doing everything within the law, and something happens, I can count on not being held accountable- in the eyes of traffic court, court if the a**hole who hit me sues for damages (?!) (weird sh*t happens) and equally importantly, in the eyes of the public. I'm fully recognizing that not a single fatality that *I* know of was caused by bicyclists' lack of caution, but I'm saying that if it did happen, we would doubtless still blame the driver because he's in a car.

I'm saying that we're not infalliable. Accidents happen. That's why they're called 'accidents'. You can coast through 4 way stops every day and not get hurt, but someday, you'll be used to it and some jerk in a suped-up civic is going to whip around a corner where you can't see them and cream your ass. Had you stopped, you wouldn't be held legally accountable, but because witnesses will say you didn't, there you are, an accident victim (laid up or not) who will most certainly be held accountable.

I'm not saying anyone *deserves* to be punished for insubordination by being hit, but they certainly set themselves up for it.

Medic_Pilot
09-26-2006, 07:22 AM
If someone has posted on this forum a crash caused by their negligence(ie running a stop), please show us where. Quote it.

No one ran a stop, or went the wrong way down a one-way, or anything else like that, caused an accident, and blamed the driver. No one does that. Stop making shit up dude.

The posts are real enough, Dan. You can go find them as easily as the next guy.

What it boils down to is that I'm sure that most cyclists try to obey the law. And for most of those who choose not to, and end up in a wreck, they don't try to pin the blame on somebody else.

What I take exception to are the few who don't think they have any responsibilities in their actions, then cry foul when something bad happens. Where do they think they're living? Fantasyland? Grow up already.

dan
09-26-2006, 08:02 AM
The posts are real enough, Dan. You can go find them as easily as the next guy.

What it boils down to is that I'm sure that most cyclists try to obey the law. And for most of those who choose not to, and end up in a wreck, they don't try to pin the blame on somebody else.

What I take exception to are the few who don't think they have any responsibilities in their actions, then cry foul when something bad happens. Where do they think they're living? Fantasyland? Grow up already.


Ok...so one last time: Who are these people? Where are these "real enough" posts. Pretty please, just use the "quote" button if they are there.

Medic_Pilot, you are a real asshole. And I don't mean that in an immature, spouited off way, but in the most truly sincere, honest way possible. You are making things up, just so you can bitch about them. And worse, you are making things up that bikers do and ranting about it, giving other people the impression that it is true, all while complaining about how these fantasy bikers give you and "your community" a bad name.

So, I'll make you a deal. You show me a post on this board, since they are "real enough", where someone complains that even though they were not obeying traffic laws, the resulting crash was totally the cars fault. If you can do this I'LL GIVE YOU MY BIKE. How's that for motivation, huh? If I can find them "as easily as the next guy", then you go do it and get a nice bike out it.

To everyone else, please stop believing what this schmuck is writing and referencing to unless they show you proof.

jami
09-26-2006, 08:28 AM
i can't think of one bike fatality in my seven years in portland that was caused by the biker. i can think of lots that were caused by drunks and people on cell phones in <I>cars</I>.

why are we having this conversation exactly?

nishiki
09-26-2006, 09:12 AM
Plenty Of Times Bikes Are At Fault

brock
09-26-2006, 09:46 AM
Plenty Of Times Bikes Are At Fault

Well, how about a reference then?

knary
09-26-2006, 10:03 AM
I know I don't have any data on hand, but are cyclists somehow immune to being stupid and making mistakes?

brock
09-26-2006, 10:15 AM
I know I don't have any data on hand, but are cyclists somehow immune to being stupid and making mistakes?

Ummm, no, who said that? Jami said he cannot "think of one bike fatality in my seven years in portland that was caused by the biker". Nishiki countered with a nice platitude. I can cite plenty of instances in the past year alone of bike fatalities where the motorist was at fault, just wondering if the same can be said for bicyclists at fault?

Climber
09-26-2006, 01:55 PM
From a 2004 Draft Study by BTA, PDOT, Portland Police and Willamette Pedestrian Coalition.

Anyone intrested in presumably reasonably good (though sometimes old) data might want to read the whole document. The following accident causes are, I believe, from nationwide studies, though there are Portland-specific data elsewhere in the study. It's 60 pages.

http://www.portlandonline.com/shared/cfm/image.cfm?id=99325

Summary of the Causes of Bicycle Crashes

The following table identifies the most common circumstances of bicycle crashes:

Cause of bicycle crash / Percent of all bicycle crashes

Motorist failed to yield 21.6%

Bicyclist failed to yield at intersection 16.8%

Motorist turned or merged into path of bicyclist 12.1%

Bicyclist failed to yield mid-block 11.7%

Motorist overtook bicyclist 8.6%

Bicyclist turned or merged into path of motorist 7.3%

Over 75% of crashes occurred when the bicyclist and motorist were on intersecting paths or when one was turning. Only 9% involved motorists overtaking bicyclists.

SEA_poseur_n_PDX
09-26-2006, 02:14 PM
I don't know that many cyclists who jump on the forums after they cause an accident. can you just imagine? "Hey guys, I just did the dumbest thing!" seems pretty safe to ask nishiki to provide you with an example of something you know doesn't exist.

nishiki is just voicing something we all know – that cyclists, just like motorists, make bad decisions on the road all the time. just because we don't have a "bonehead moves" sub-forum next to "tips & tricks" doesn't mean they don't happen all the time.

here's one:

http://bikeportland.org/2006/09/05/a-strange-but-true-bike-arrest/

which we only heard of because Jonathan Maus was present.

brock
09-26-2006, 02:34 PM
seems pretty safe to ask nishiki to provide you with an example of something you know doesn't exist

"Fatalities" is the key word here. I don't really know, I'd suspect there would be, though not nearly as many as were caused by motorists. Thank you, carry on.

SEA_poseur_n_PDX
09-26-2006, 02:43 PM
right – because cyclists involved in fatality accidents are even More proactive about posting their misdeeds on forums.

so what exactly are you asking for? a cyclist-witness to a cycling fatality that will write a post about how it was the dead cyclists fault? again, not a high probability there brock.

brock
09-26-2006, 02:54 PM
C'mon. I'm talking about accident reports, like the study referenced by Climber, that indicates fault in the case of bicyclist fatalities. Note that the information is compiled by PDOT, BTA, etc., - an 'official source' if you will - not on some online forum. Do you really think that's what I'm looking for? Anyways, I'm done here.

Kitsune06
09-26-2006, 03:47 PM
This thread is essentially going nowhere.

Unless I'm wrong, we're all making and arguing completely different points, all with a certain amount of correctness that no one's doubting.

Punk, Dan, and Brock seem to be arguing that no one willingly causes accidents, and the best idea for safety is using your own common sense
(an extension of this may be that following laid out laws 9/10 of the time is the commmon sense at hand--staying to the right, signaling, yeilding to something 10x your mass, etc) but if you want to run signs, etc, and don't see anyone coming, it's your right.

Medic and I seem to be arguing that while no one causes accidents intentionally, enough people play it loose with the laws etc that when 'close calls' etc happen, it might be our fault- and we (I?) don't want to hear motorists blamed for any time a biker should've yeilded and didn't, leading to an accident or a close call.

Rix, Climber, and SEA seem to be doing the best they can to back up the general consensus that following the laws is, essentially, your call (it always is) but if you do, you'll likely be backed up in the court of law (assuming you survive said accident) with Climber pointing out that bikers are just as capable of making mistakes as anyone else.

It comes down to this: We're not super humans just because we ride bikes. We're the same mix of people, the same ratios of intelligence to ignorance and patience to impetuousness as motorists. We just choose different modes of transportation. The fact that ours are so much smaller and so much more susceptible to damage than others means we have to be that much more careful. It also means that there will undoubtedly be animosity, but why make said animosity go both ways?

I'd get just as p*ssed if some guy on a bike ran a 4 way stop as I would if some guy in a car did the same, if not moreso, because a car running a stop could naturally get t-boned or hit someone on the cross street, but car damage goes to insurance, etc. There's a good chance the driver will walk away from it. A cyclist gets hit and it was a senseless loss of a life, or their time. A stupid choice that lead to pain and damage that could've been easily prevented.
I'm saying that because we're so vulnerable, we need to make better decisions, and not rely on motorists to not drink coffee and use their cell phones. We need to be cautious and careful, because God knows, we can't count on anyone else to.

Anyone can challenge those points, but why? I'm not much for passing the buck or saying someone else needs to be responsible. Maybe in someone's "damn hippy" world, all the motorists will drive little cars covered in nerf, and will watch around every corner and glance at their mirrors before making turns and never, ever eat, drink, or use their cells while driving, and everyone will be equally responsible...
But such is not the case... so we've all got to be careful out there.

TCR Punk
09-26-2006, 04:55 PM
This thread is essentially going nowhere.

Unless I'm wrong, we're all making and arguing completely different points, all with a certain amount of correctness that no one's doubting.

Punk, Dan, and Brock seem to be arguing that no one willingly causes accidents, and the best idea for safety is using your own common sense
(an extension of this may be that following laid out laws 9/10 of the time is the commmon sense at hand--staying to the right, signaling, yeilding to something 10x your mass, etc) but if you want to run signs, etc, and don't see anyone coming, it's your right.

Medic and I seem to be arguing that while no one causes accidents intentionally, enough people play it loose with the laws etc that when 'close calls' etc happen, it might be our fault- and we (I?) don't want to hear motorists blamed for any time a biker should've yeilded and didn't, leading to an accident or a close call.

Rix, Climber, and SEA seem to be doing the best they can to back up the general consensus that following the laws is, essentially, your call (it always is) but if you do, you'll likely be backed up in the court of law (assuming you survive said accident) with Climber pointing out that bikers are just as capable of making mistakes as anyone else.

It comes down to this: We're not super humans just because we ride bikes. We're the same mix of people, the same ratios of intelligence to ignorance and patience to impetuousness as motorists. We just choose different modes of transportation. The fact that ours are so much smaller and so much more susceptible to damage than others means we have to be that much more careful. It also means that there will undoubtedly be animosity, but why make said animosity go both ways?

I'd get just as p*ssed if some guy on a bike ran a 4 way stop as I would if some guy in a car did the same, if not moreso, because a car running a stop could naturally get t-boned or hit someone on the cross street, but car damage goes to insurance, etc. There's a good chance the driver will walk away from it. A cyclist gets hit and it was a senseless loss of a life, or their time. A stupid choice that lead to pain and damage that could've been easily prevented.
I'm saying that because we're so vulnerable, we need to make better decisions, and not rely on motorists to not drink coffee and use their cell phones. We need to be cautious and careful, because God knows, we can't count on anyone else to.

Anyone can challenge those points, but why? I'm not much for passing the buck or saying someone else needs to be responsible. Maybe in someone's "damn hippy" world, all the motorists will drive little cars covered in nerf, and will watch around every corner and glance at their mirrors before making turns and never, ever eat, drink, or use their cells while driving, and everyone will be equally responsible...
But such is not the case... so we've all got to be careful out there.


Word, Yo. Kinda why i stop responding to this thread.

TCR Punk
09-26-2006, 05:01 PM
to read this thread from start to finish, how it totally goes off course from the original post. But, isn't that the idea of internet forums.


and who is down to race saturday night. Check out the thread "Alley cat racing."

BillD
09-26-2006, 05:38 PM
This thread is essentially going nowhere.

........................snip...................... ......

You got that right! Coupla hundred more nonsense posts and it'll be worthy of A&S on bf.net :D

Bill

Rixtir
09-26-2006, 06:46 PM
The original post was about two phenomena: cyclists nearly knocking down pedestrians on the sidewalk, and cyclists not yielding the right of way when they blow stop signs/lights.

Is there anybody here who thinks those two separate behaviors are acceptable practice?

Attornatus_Oregonensis
09-28-2006, 01:34 PM
....

A couple of questions:
1. Have I just run into every idiot biker on the roads in Portland or have you noticed more rude bike behavior?

2. What are you doing to encourage the responsible (and discourage the disruptive) use of bicycles?

On 1., here's my experience: I just moved here from Seattle. I have seen tons of people with no helmets, no lights, riding too fast on the sidewalk, riding the wrong (F-ing!) way down streets, etc. As has been pointed out, I guess there are idiots in all walks of life. But I'm a little surprised because of Portland's reputation and because of how many responsible cyclists are here. And I'm definitely not perfect, but at least I try.

Here's my big problem with all the behaviors I cited above: YOU ARE MAKING US LOOK BAD!!!

I'm passionate about cycling and advocating for cycling as a transportation alternative, but every dumbass I see riding at night without a light or down the wrong side of the street is A GIANT STEP BACK for us in the public's perception. You have to remember, the American public is generally tolerant and wants to be fair, but they love their cars and they won't do much intellectual work to find out about policy issues. On the other hand, they're easily lead (or mislead). The momentum of cycling is growing in the public's eyes, but it can easily be stopped. And it will be if people keep doing stuff like that.

On 2, I try to confront people without being negative or yelling. But I actually think that the problem behaviors are so common and the impact on public perception is so negative that it is time for us like-minded cyclists to start applying some gentle social pressure by actually talking to people who do dumb things on bikes.

nishiki
09-28-2006, 01:50 PM
I thank little jesus everyday for riding my bike without lights, the wrong way, and run through stop signs at ease.

The day I ll have to follow the rules like a car does... I ll buy a myself a car!

Attornatus_Oregonensis
09-28-2006, 02:58 PM
But you make the Baby Jesus cry when you ride the wrong way!

TCR Punk
09-28-2006, 04:01 PM
But you make the Baby Jesus cry when you ride the wrong way!


A little tears never hurt anyone~

Rixtir
09-28-2006, 04:30 PM
I thank little jesus everyday for riding my bike without lights, the wrong way, and run through stop signs at ease.

The day I ll have to follow the rules like a car does... I ll buy a myself a car!I thank little Buddha for karma. :)




So if you're just riding because you're a scofflaw, and not a cyclist, time to get a car and do it right....

Rixtir
09-28-2006, 04:33 PM
Here's my big problem with all the behaviors I cited above: YOU ARE MAKING US LOOK BAD!!!

I'm passionate about cycling and advocating for cycling as a transportation alternative, but every dumbass I see riding at night without a light or down the wrong side of the street is A GIANT STEP BACK for us in the public's perception. You have to remember, the American public is generally tolerant and wants to be fair, but they love their cars and they won't do much intellectual work to find out about policy issues. On the other hand, they're easily lead (or mislead). The momentum of cycling is growing in the public's eyes, but it can easily be stopped. And it will be if people keep doing stuff like that.

On 2, I try to confront people without being negative or yelling. But I actually think that the problem behaviors are so common and the impact on public perception is so negative that it is time for us like-minded cyclists to start applying some gentle social pressure by actually talking to people who do dumb things on bikes.The scofflaws who ride like that don't give a flying f... They tell us right here. That's why I FULLY support every traffic citation issued. Somebody got a ticket? YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kitsune06
09-29-2006, 05:16 PM
Rixtir, you are now my hero. (it changes weekly, but you officially made this week's title.)
Congrats. =)

RobCat
09-29-2006, 08:18 PM
The scofflaws who ride like that don't give a flying f... They tell us right here. That's why I FULLY support every traffic citation issued. Somebody got a ticket? YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have to say that, were I a witness to both the offense and the citation, I'd probably pause to relish the moment from curbside. :D