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handfab
07-16-2008, 08:44 AM
This morning I was commuting southbound on N. Vancouver about to turn right on Russell and I noticed someone had wrote on the pavement "cop" with chalk.

I was about to roll through the red light like I always do but managed to hit the brakes enough to slow down to a "roll". Right behind me was another rider who didn't stop on the red light and sure enough a motorcycle cop pulled out of the shadows stopped the other rider. pheww!

Thanks to who ever wrote the warning. I narrowly missed an expensive ticket. Sorry to the other guy got the ticket.

Russell
07-16-2008, 09:02 AM
Congratulations on avoiding monetary consequences for violating traffic laws. We should all be so lucky.

brock
07-16-2008, 10:50 AM
I put my safety above the letter of the law, so I've been known to roll through stops and proceed through reds in certain cases. As always, I'm hyper-attentive of my surroundings when I do.

I've always maintained that if you didn't see the cop waiting there to pull you over, you simply weren't paying enough attention, and likely deserve what you got.

Krampus
07-16-2008, 11:03 AM
If your safety comes before all else, why would you decide to break the law and risk being fined? It only adds to the assumption that drivers view cyclists as feeling entitled. I would not be happy if I saw cars running red lights as often as I see cyclists doing it.

This week alone we've seen what running a red light on a bike can do. I'm sure that cyclist thought they were being attentive as well. It doesn't matter how attentive you are if other people on the road aren't paying attention.

brock
07-16-2008, 12:05 PM
Well, risking breaking the law and being fined still has nothing to do with my safety... Maybe the safety of my bank account...

As to adding to the assumption that drivers view cyclists as being entitled? I'm very aware of the impression I create, but my safety supercedes this. There are plenty of situations (aka, almost all) where I do follow the law exactly. The times that I don't are when I recognize that removing myself from the situation is safer than staying there.

I'm not sure how much the cyclist you reference thought they were paying attention. Given the number of cyclists doing stupid things that I see every day, I'd speculate they are not, at least not as much as they should be. I propose that anyone getting tagged by a stop sign sting was not.

"It doesn't matter how attentive you are if other people on the road aren't paying attention." - I disagree. In such a vunerable position, it does matter that I'm paying more attention, and my attempts to remove myself from dangerous situations are based on this. If there are vehicles anywhere in the vicinity, you bet I'll be following the law, exactly because they may not be paying attention.

jr98664
07-16-2008, 12:08 PM
Unless it's in the dead of the night, I'll rarely run a red light, and that's normally just the ones that I know won't turn for me. Mind you, these are normally at intersections where you can see cars for blocks and blocks away.

The problem that I encounter more often, however, and especially so downtown, is that I'll accidently run a red light when there is no opposing traffic. It's not that I wasn't paying attention, it's that I actually pay attention to other cars. Which is actually going to kill me, running a red light with no cars, or going through a green and being hit by a car running a red light?

If I were to ever get ticketed by a cop, I would simply say that I was too busy paying attention to traffic to notice the color of the light. It's kind of like gorilla suit video, except then you are asked what color somebody's hair was.

brewcaster
07-16-2008, 12:10 PM
This angers me sooo much. Follow the fucking laws. You are not above them. Trust me.

Krampus
07-16-2008, 12:10 PM
Well, risking breaking the law and being fined still has nothing to do with my safety... Maybe the safety of my bank account...

As to adding to the assumption that drivers view cyclists as being entitled? I'm very aware of the impression I create, but my safety supercedes this. There are plenty of situations (aka, almost all) where I do follow the law exactly. The times that I don't are when I recognize that removing myself from the situation is safer than staying there.

I'm not sure how much the cyclist you reference thought they were paying attention. Given the number of cyclists doing stupid things that I see every day, I'd speculate they are not, at least not as much as they should be. I propose that anyone getting tagged by a stop sign sting was not.

"It doesn't matter how attentive you are if other people on the road aren't paying attention." - I disagree. In such a vunerable position, it does matter that I'm paying more attention, and my attempts to remove myself from dangerous situations are based on this. If there are vehicles anywhere in the vicinity, you bet I'll be following the law, exactly because they may not be paying attention.

I guess I simply fail to see how breaking the law increases your safety on the roads. I've yet to read a compelling argument in favor of that sentiment.

shnshni
07-16-2008, 12:26 PM
I don't think that following the law to a t lways the best thing to do. Stopping to a full stop at every stop sign, waiting until the light is green, stopping at every 4 way stop sign, completely? Come on. I come to a stop at every stoplight, but if there are no cars between my intersection and the next, no one in front or behind (no one is around) I will probably go. Similarly, if I see the other light is turning yellow, and no one is coming (I usual;y do this on one way streets, which are easier to be careful on), I may jump the light. I'm sure some of you will say I'm a crazy reckless biker. I think we all agree that blowing red lights is stupid, and being very attentive and cautious and wearing a hemlet is common sense, but where we fail to meet is considering the 'law' to be the final word, to be followed to a t at all times. For those of you (not me) who have a car, don't you drive 5 miles above the speed limit sometimes? Or roll a stop sign or a right turn at a red light? P[erhgaps you don't, but for those of you who do, minor, safe, cautious violations of the written law are the same thing.

brock
07-16-2008, 12:31 PM
I guess I simply fail to see how breaking the law increases your safety on the roads. I've yet to read a compelling argument in favor of that sentiment.

Here's an example, probably the most common place I'll procede through a red - waiting in the middle of Barbur to take a left turn with a red arrow. No one in the immediate vicinity. Wait there for the light to change, and soon two lanes of 50+ traffic buzzing by on either side of me. Go when no one is around, I'm not there when the cars come.

I know you guys read my post and immediately imagine me as some scofflaw, probably the one you saw just the other day that pissed you off so much. But that's not me. Life's a little more nuanced than that, sorry.

brock
07-16-2008, 12:45 PM
Follow the fucking laws. You are not above them. Trust me.

Compelling argument, really. You come to a complete stop at every sign? Never exceed the speed limit in a car even by a few mph? Never walk across a street in the middle when no one is coming? Stop for pedestrians at an intersection even without a crosswalk?

bonny790
07-16-2008, 12:50 PM
I normally follow traffic laws as they're posted not just to avoid paying fines with money I don't have, but also because in most cases, it's the most courteous option. You know, stopping at signs, waiting at lights, etc. Being respectful of, and to, other road users I feel is everybody's responsibility, IMO.

That said, sometimes the safest option is contrary to what's posted. My example is in the Rose Garden cluster F@#k. Coming from N Vancouver Ave to Wheeler (heading South) I make a right onto Multnomah St then left onto Interstate. They have a big sign with arrow saying right turn only. The alternative for cyclist is not clear to me. I guess I could use the crosswalk, but I don't like that option with the cars streaming across it. Supposedly you can't ride through the transit area, so I don't. There are some signs detouring peds and cyclist to the left (farther south) but who the hell knows where I'm supposed to cross. I don't ride on the sidewalk because it's less safe, especially in that area where buses are turning left onto wheeler from Interstate. I'm sure I didn't explain any of that clearly, but that's actually about as clear as that area ;-) Anyway, I make a left from Multnomah onto Interstate. Illegal, but safer IMO.

To the OP, glad you skated this time thanks to a tip off, but there would have been no sympathies if you got nailed. You run on ice, you're bound to slip.

Toby

brewcaster
07-16-2008, 01:04 PM
Compelling argument, really. You come to a complete stop at every sign? Never exceed the speed limit in a car even by a few mph? Never walk across a street in the middle when no one is coming? Stop for pedestrians at an intersection even without a crosswalk?

When I am on a bike, I follow all laws. Why? Because I dream of a day when drivers don't look at cyclists as unpredictable. Most drivers live in fear when near a bicycle. They don't want to hit you. They don't expect to know that you are going to follow the stops signs and red lights either. I think that is a shame.

I almost saw a group of cyclists get hit yesterday, because they were tired of waiting for a green light, they thought with their best judgment that they were clear of traffic to go through, WRONG. The cars had to slam brakes on to avoid hitting these idiots. How can you be sure?

You know they say, you never hear the gunshot that hits you. I imagine you never see the car that creams you as you blow a red.

Why do you think drivers get angry at cyclists?

brock
07-16-2008, 01:21 PM
Well, you didn't answer my question, only that you follow all the laws "when on a bike". What about off? If you're going to take a principaled position, live it.

You cite more examples of stupid people on bikes doing stupid things. Again, that is not me, not even close. I too am appalled, and have concern over the impression these people create. Trust me, if I procede through a light, there is no one there. No one. Maybe its just that in your experience, your judgement sucks? Clearly for many, maybe that's the case. Mine does not. I've been riding my bike as an adult for over 20 years, from rural roads to downtown Boston. You?

Cute dog, btw.

Krampus
07-16-2008, 01:27 PM
Well, you didn't answer my question, only that you follow all the laws "when on a bike". What about off? If you're going to take a principaled position, live it.

You cite more examples of stupid people on bikes doing stupid things. Again, that is not me, not even close. I too am appalled, and have concern over the impression these people create. Trust me, if I procede through a light, there is no one there. No one. Maybe its just that in your experience, your judgement sucks? Clearly for many, maybe that's the case. Mine does not. I've been riding my bike as an adult for over 20 years, from rural roads to downtown Boston. You?

Cute dog, btw.

Yet you make cyclists look bad by breaking the law. It's just not helpful, and it puts you and others at risk, even if you swear up and down that it's totally safe for you to break the law since you're an experienced law breaker. Nobody intentionally gets hit. They think they are being safe even though they are breaking the law. Next thing they know, they're in the ER. You're playing right into the stereotype that many drivers have of us. In light of the recent accidents this last week, the last thing we need are more cyclists running reds and stop signs.

brock
07-16-2008, 01:46 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree then. You change the world your way, and I'll change it my way.

I wave and thank curtious motorists. I don't pass a line of cars at a light only to be passed again. I help stranded cyclists. I wear a helmet 99% of the time. I'm always lit up when visibility is low. I help my friends and coworkers find safe bike routes and with bike maintenance. I confront the scofflaw cyclists you keep citing. I call in debris on the road, and move what I can.

Yet sometimes, when the situation is right, I may not follow the law exactly. If this pisses off a motorist or a cyclist, it's not because I endangered them, or even slowed them down. But rather because there are folks in cars that, like you, see this all in black and white, and well that just pisses them off.

It detracts from the real problem - that every road user needs to be curtious and respectful. That is what I work for, and keep in mind every time I swing a leg over my bike, or buckle up in my car.

fredlf
07-16-2008, 01:47 PM
Perhaps someone who knows more can correct me, but if a light won't change for you, can't you legally treat it as a broken signal, and therefore as a 4-way stop?

djasonpenney
07-16-2008, 01:50 PM
You can run the light, but you must treat the light as you come upon it each and every time with the presumption that it is operating correctly, and wait long enough to be able to testify, incontrovertibly, that it has malfunctioned. This typically means waiting until the third cycle or three minutes, whichever comes first.

brewcaster
07-16-2008, 02:04 PM
Cute dog, btw.

Thank you. This ends my interest in the discussion.

beelnite
07-16-2008, 03:33 PM
...does it make a sound?

If a lonely cyclist slows, looks and rolls through a stop sign and no one sees it...

What is the real problem here? I think it's:

Blatant disregard for traffic signals with no attempt to obey causing other road users to have to adjust their behavior or risk killing you.

Now seriously, just how often does this really happen? In my years in Portland - and they are many- I've seen a dude on a bike run a red light forcing traffic to slam the brakes a total of one time. Once. And this was in a construction zone near the waterfront and I think the guy was just confused because he seemd darn surprised.

Yet you'd think we were all doing it... all the time.

I think we tend to lump this stopping/slowing, sign/signal thing into one big "scofflaw" category. I think that's wrong - it's more a matter of degree.

I may never make political office but I think the law is open to individual interpretation - your safety should come first - with acceptable risk of penalty of course. I personally choose to "cali-stop" at certain lonely 4-way stops on my route.

I rolled up on a side stop this morning, did not put my foot down, saw a safe opening and waved to the Portland City Police Officer across from me who allowed me to turn in front of him. We both knew I just needed to get out of the way quickly.

Technically, he could have cited me because my foot never came down. But it was time to go. Get out of the way 2-wheeler and don't make this take longer than it has too.

Stuff like "rolling stops" at stop signs or when turning right on a red light -- that's not a "bike thing" that's totally a road users thing. It doesn't matter what we're riding/driving/pushing people do it routinely and often without a second thought.

I guess I don't really trust anyone who says they are obeying the law to the letter and thinks everyone else needs to religiously do so, but I will advocate an inspirational question:

If we all did proper stops at the stop signs religiously do you think motorists would eventually get fed up with how much time we're costing them at intersections?

There's always going to be some reason...

poser
07-16-2008, 04:44 PM
ditto what beelnite said.

While I have seen more than just 1 incident involving a cyclist causing multiple cars to slam on their brakes by blatantly disregarding the law; it's has only been an handful. Compared to the number of times I've seen folks obey the law - or obey it to the point where safety concerns are reasonably met, the number of scofflaws are negligible. (<1%)

Be safe and have regard for the safety of others. I'd rather be that than be a stop-sign nazi.

Truthfully, I used to be a stop-sign nazi when I moved to Portland. These days I care more about safety and PR. (safety first of course.) I always stop at a stop sign if there's a car, bike, or pedestrian present. Good PR for the cycling community (see! there are bikes that stop) - safety is addressed by following that rule. When nobody is present, I slow down enough to stop if I have to, then keep going. (For whatever reason, I can't bring myself to run a stop-light, under any circumstances).

More than that is overkill. Any self-righteous pomps that say otherwise ("...I stop at Every Stop Sign! Harrumph!") please don't sit next to me the next time we all get together for a beer...

:)

--

handfab
07-16-2008, 06:51 PM
I think it is a matter of degrees regarding the level of disregard for traffic laws. When I saw the motorcycle cop pull out and turn his lights on- I thought to myself-busted! I'm willing to take responsibility for my actions. I was lucky. We all make ethical judgement calls everyday-as a cyclist or not. I will confess to occasionally rolling through a red light or stop sign when the coast is clear. When commuting in heavy traffic I try to defer to motorists as much as possible.

I will say this: It is my opinion that because Portland has become the hot city for cycling, there is a percentage of riders on the road who may be a bit more cavalier, even bold, or "scofflaws" if you prefer. I see comments posted on this forum and website from riders who suggest "we" need to "clean up our house". I tend to agree. The local media knows that a tension exists between cyclists and motorists. They also know that it will sell newspapers.

The person who wrote the message on the pavement was giving warning to clean up our house.

Haven_kd7yct
07-17-2008, 08:33 AM
I'll cali-stop at stop signs; I think most people do that. It's not a full on, all-wheel, foot-put-down stop, but it's exactly what cars do. Unless there's car traffic, in which case, I put a foot down and stop.

I won't run a red light, though, unless I'm sure there's something wrong with it and there's no cars coming.

I'll cali-stop the right-on-red, if there's a bike lane to get into; otherwise, it's stop and wait my turn.

And isn't that all the rest of the road users are asking? That we stop and wait our turn? That we ride predictably?

I've never understood what other cyclists have against this philosophy... that we treat other road users with respect, courtesy, decency. Maybe someday, someone will explain it to me.

Jim E. Hat
07-17-2008, 09:24 AM
"I was about to roll through the red light like I always do but managed to hit the brakes enough to slow down to a 'roll'. "

I read that and it makes me think that you normally go through red lights at a rate faster than a roll... that, and you seem to get pleasure out of seeing another biker get a ticket for what you normally do.

you're kind of a dick.

handfab
07-17-2008, 10:50 AM
I know thats what it may seem. I did not take pleasure in seeing the other guy get a ticket. I didn't have time to warn him. He was behind me wearing headphones and passed me as we continued through the intersection...Did you read the rest of the post? It also may seem like I'm backing down from what I said originally "like I always do"...I do stop at stop lights.

Its a pretty cheap shot to take one sentence and summarize everything about me. Its funny how the anonymous nature of forums brings out this behavior.

Jim E. Hat
07-17-2008, 12:11 PM
This morning I was commuting southbound on N. Vancouver about to turn right on Russell and I noticed someone had wrote on the pavement "cop" with chalk.

I was about to roll through the red light like I always do but managed to hit the brakes enough to slow down to a "roll". Right behind me was another rider who didn't stop on the red light and sure enough a motorcycle cop pulled out of the shadows stopped the other rider. pheww!

Thanks to who ever wrote the warning. I narrowly missed an expensive ticket. Sorry to the other guy got the ticket.

I think it is a matter of degrees regarding the level of disregard for traffic laws. When I saw the motorcycle cop pull out and turn his lights on- I thought to myself-busted! I'm willing to take responsibility for my actions. I was lucky. We all make ethical judgement calls everyday-as a cyclist or not. I will confess to occasionally rolling through a red light or stop sign when the coast is clear. When commuting in heavy traffic I try to defer to motorists as much as possible.

I will say this: It is my opinion that because Portland has become the hot city for cycling, there is a percentage of riders on the road who may be a bit more cavalier, even bold, or "scofflaws" if you prefer. I see comments posted on this forum and website from riders who suggest "we" need to "clean up our house". I tend to agree. The local media knows that a tension exists between cyclists and motorists. They also know that it will sell newspapers.

The person who wrote the message on the pavement was giving warning to clean up our house.

I know thats what it may seem. I did not take pleasure in seeing the other guy get a ticket. I didn't have time to warn him. He was behind me wearing headphones and passed me as we continued through the intersection...Did you read the rest of the post? It also may seem like I'm backing down from what I said originally "like I always do"...I do stop at stop lights.

Its a pretty cheap shot to take one sentence and summarize everything about me. Its funny how the anonymous nature of forums brings out this behavior.

I'll quote everything you say, i don't care, i was just saving space...

Let's look at the progression here:

1. I was about to roll through the red light like I always do but managed to hit the brakes enough to slow down to a "roll".

2. I will confess to occasionally rolling through a red light or stop sign when the coast is clear.

3. It also may seem like I'm backing down from what I said originally "like I always do"...I do stop at stop lights.

You're probably just trying to distance yourself from Brock, who's giving red light runners a real bad name by being a major cornhole...

Regardless, pick your stance on red lights and stick with it, and if you run them, i consider you a careless biker. If you don't, then don't try and make yourself all cool by saying what you originally said, because you come off like Brock.

brock
07-17-2008, 12:14 PM
who's giving red light runners a real bad name by being a major cornhole...

Say the fuck what? I'm giving red light runners a real bad name? You make no sense there, tiger.

Jim E. Hat
07-17-2008, 12:36 PM
Say the fuck what? I'm giving red light runners a real bad name? You make no sense there, tiger.

yes, becuase you are really standoffish when anyone tells you they're concerned that your actions are keeping bikers from being looked at as equal users of the road.

Things like this:

"I put my safety above the letter of the law."

"risking breaking the law and being fined still has nothing to do with my safety"

"As to adding to the assumption that drivers view cyclists as being entitled? I'm very aware of the impression I create, but my safety supercedes this."

"probably the most common place I'll procede through a red"

"Trust me, if I procede through a light, there is no one there. No one. Maybe its just that in your experience, your judgement sucks?"

"Yet sometimes, when the situation is right, I may not follow the law exactly. If this pisses off a motorist or a cyclist, it's not because I endangered them, or even slowed them down. But rather because there are folks in cars that, like you, see this all in black and white, and well that just pisses them off."

You break the law all the time, are proud of it, and you talk down to other bikers... you are a scofflaw.

Russell
07-17-2008, 12:47 PM
The law I want to see passed and enforced is if one references the Nazis or Hitler on a discussion forum that is not about Nazis or Hitler, they lose all access to the internets for one (1) year.

Stop signs, I'm more flexible.

Thus be it decreed!

brock
07-17-2008, 12:54 PM
Ok Mr. Hat. If it's that black and white to you, then the conversation is lost. You're picking out the extreme - that I do sometimes not follow the law to the letter. Ignore everything else, go ahead and project onto me the rider you think I am. Funny that this all blew up stating a conditional, while admonishing anyone not attentive enough to notice cops hanging around an intersection...

Break the law all the time? Wrong, sometimes, with good reason.

Proud of it? No, justifying my occassional actions in a world engineered against my mode of transport.

Talk down to other bikers? No, only those who think they know what is best for me and can't understand a little nuance.

Have fun out there.

vincentpaul
07-17-2008, 01:07 PM
I put my safety above the letter of the law, so I've been known to roll through stops and proceed through reds in certain cases.

This is a novel concept to me. In what situation would a cyclist abiding by the Oregon vehicular code be endangered by his/her adherence to that code?

rainperimeter
07-17-2008, 01:13 PM
Now seriously, just how often does this really happen? In my years in Portland - and they are many- I've seen a dude on a bike run a red light forcing traffic to slam the brakes a total of one time. Once. And this was in a construction zone near the waterfront and I think the guy was just confused because he seemd darn surprised.


i usually can't be too bothered to chime in on a topic when everyone gets all pissy like this. but i do have to say that beelnite brings up a good point. i've been a 365 day a year biker here in portland for a long time (and in two other sorta bikey cities, in my 20's) and i can't recall, at this moment, really seeing anyone totally blow through a light, cars screeching to a halt, horns honking, etc. not once ever.

i guess the time of day has a lot to do with how i view rolling through intersections. i ride home from work late at night and can often count the number of cars i see in 5 miles on one hand. there is no way i'm coming to a full stop at every light and stop sign. that's crazy. am i a crazy scofflaw destroying good cyclists reputations?

brock
07-17-2008, 01:13 PM
I've provided an example already. It boils down to not being around when motor vehicles will be present. If I'm not there, I'm not in any danger.

I'm giving up on this topic however, it seems folks would rather read some sort of fuck-the-establishment motives into my riding, rather than see every situation as conditional.

rainperimeter
07-17-2008, 01:20 PM
The law I want to see passed and enforced is if one references the Nazis or Hitler on a discussion forum that is not about Nazis or Hitler, they lose all access to the internets for one (1) year.

Stop signs, I'm more flexible.

Thus be it decreed!

ok, i agree with russell here also. saying you're a "something-nazi" is more annoying than forum arguments that go nowhere.

poser
07-17-2008, 01:28 PM
The law I want to see passed and enforced is if one references the Nazis or Hitler on a discussion forum that is not about Nazis or Hitler, they lose all access to the internets for one (1) year.

ok, i agree with russell here also. saying you're a "something-nazi" is more annoying than forum arguments that go nowhere.

well I put a call into Seinfeld's agent to pass the word on that he shouldn't participate in this forum. Jeez - you two are so sensitive. I was trying to think of a phrase that aptly described me back when I full-stopped at every stop-sign I encountered; and lectured any cyclists who didn't. "stop-sign-nazi" was all I could think of - do you forum-etiquette-nazis have any better suggestions?

--

Russell
07-17-2008, 01:59 PM
do you forum-etiquette-nazis have any better suggestions?

--

I don't think references to the Khmer Rouge or the Ottoman Empire have been mined nearly enough on bulletin boards. While we'll have a hard time finding a one syllable word for either that can easily be integrated into whatever other words we want to link it to as a devastating argument ending point regarding stop signs, J Lo's ass, or World of Warcraft player verses player combat. We're inventive and creative people, I'm sure it'll come to us.

I do give you bonus points however for calling yourself the nazi (or former nazi) in the original comment however. That's an unusual twist to the common usage. I'll stop now though so I can say in the future, I used to be a forum-etiquette-nazi when I first got on the internet. These days I care about intent and friendliness.



...oh, and hijacking threads.

Krampus
07-17-2008, 04:31 PM
I believe it is called Godwin's Law -->> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law


Essentially, during any sort of heated discussion/debate/argument on the internet, the first person to bring up Nazi's or Hitler automatically "loses" :D

I agree though. It's like having a conversation about cheeseburgers, then someone chimes in "WELL WHAT IF HITLER DID THAT, WOULD YOU TOO?!?!"

Telling someone if they disagree with you they're a nazi/Hitler = lame.

beelnite
07-18-2008, 07:52 AM
...but telling someone you think they are exhibiting extreme draconian behavior not so lame...

brewcaster
07-18-2008, 08:59 AM
I know I said I was done, but I can't keep away, they keep PULLING ME BACK IN...

So I guess my point is this.

Traffic lights are here because:
-Trusting human judgment to manuever intersections did not work.

Why?
I think for 2 reasons:
1. Humans are not computers(stop lights are computer controlled). We as humans are going to make mis-judgments on safety, speeds of other cars, and could possibly just not see what could be a danger at an intersection.
2. Some road users will take advantage of this "honor system" and feel entitled to not obey "caution".

SO... I know some people think that a car and a bike are in their own realms of safety and danger capabilities. I think they are in the same boat if they are using the same road.

How would you feel if you started seeing cars making their own judgment calls on when they should obey a traffic signal? True, it happens sometimes, and it makes me VERY angry. Why? Because it is dangerous, it is bad influence, and it makes me lose trust in knowing what a car will do at a light or stop sign.

Again, I obey the laws. Why? Because I want to be a positive influence on other riders, and on cars, that we as cyclist can and hopefully will become predictable road users at intersections. Sure its inconvenient to a cyclist to have to lose momentum and then start from a stop. But are we riding bikes because it is convenient? In some aspects we are, but in energy output from your body, no we are not.

Not waiting for a green light or rolling through a stop sign gains you this:
-Less energy needed to get back to speed
-Less time on the commute

But not doing this has these negative effects:
-You increase your odds for a collision
-You anger other road users, bikes and cars
-You lower the trust of other road users that they know what you will do at an intersection
-You are breaking the law, $200+ fine.

I just don't see the benefits outweighing the negatives here. I ride at most busy times. And I do see see these cars screeching to avoid a cyclist breaking the law. But again, this is not the only negative, see above.

jr98664
07-18-2008, 11:59 PM
The law I want to see passed and enforced is if one references the Nazis or Hitler on a discussion forum that is not about Nazis or Hitler, they lose all access to the internets for one (1) year.

Stop signs, I'm more flexible.

Thus be it decreed!

I find Godwin's law to be applicable to both forum and real-life discussions.

Even Nazis used bicycles (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hab3045/2634658114/). It's only the most practical form of transportation, but I digress.

rainperimeter
07-20-2008, 02:02 AM
well I put a call into Seinfeld's agent to pass the word on that he shouldn't participate in this forum. Jeez - you two are so sensitive. I was trying to think of a phrase that aptly described me back when I full-stopped at every stop-sign I encountered; and lectured any cyclists who didn't. "stop-sign-nazi" was all I could think of - do you forum-etiquette-nazis have any better suggestions?

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sorry dude. it's hardly as if i've pegged you as that person on the forums who uses the "'whatever' nazi" term. i wouldn't have remembered who used it if you hadn't brought it up again. i'm blaming all this on russell. thanks for nothing russell.

Russell
07-20-2008, 07:36 AM
Blaming others is exactly what Hitler would do.