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180mm_DaN
10-15-2007, 05:13 PM
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Background:

Let's assume: Speed limit is a default 25 mph (but not posted) (Can anyone confirm default un-posted speed?)

This is North Portland, but could be NE and SE below 82nd.

I've ridden 3-4 short-pdx blocks at the faster side of 10 mph without any cars behind me (or even passing opposite direction). In the 5th block a vehicle begins sharing the block/lane with me. At the end of block six I will turn left because the street ends, and the vehicle will turn right. The vehicle tails me in block 6. After my turn I would allow the vehicle to pass.

Can the driver justify their annoyance that they need to slow down for me in the sixth block?
----------------------

I argue, the bicyclist is going the "normal" speed of traffic because it is the only vehicle on the street until the 4-wheel approached. The bike speed leads and not the 4-wheel's potential speed. The bike has already set the speed because it was in the lane first. If the 2-wheel was a 4-wheel instead, the same interpretation applies.

(This is a matter of neighborhood riding, not Downtown or cross-town commuting. When I do this I ride faster than above.)

The counterpoint, according to my neighbor, is cars drive 25 mph (period). If a slower 2-wheel is in the road, it should allow a safe pass for the 4-wheel, even if the 4-wheel is only going one more short-block...!

I think that is the crux for me: a bike doesn't physically take the full-lane, but that doesn't obligate it to ride less than a full-lane automatically and/or immediately because a 4-wheel appears.

I say this is a quality-of-life issue, and part of the share-the-road ethos.

I'm interested in Both legal and moral interpretations.

PDXGS
10-15-2007, 05:48 PM
Um, why cant you just move to the right a bit and wave the car by? This would accomplish two things...you get your last block car-free and the driver might realize that some bike riders are capable of being nice. Why antagonize the driver or set yourself up for possible issues when you go to turn left with a PO'ed driver behind you?
Lastly, just because you don't see a reason to move over or pedal faster doesn't mean you're not being an ass.

wsbob
10-15-2007, 08:15 PM
Yeah, if the vehicle tailgates you, even if it just entered the block that you're traveling in, wave them on by regardless of your speed. Some motorists don't mind waiting a block or two to pass, especially if they can see that you're motating. Others are just so antsy, it's better to get rid of them ASAP.

Once about 15 years ago, I was two blocks from a red light, slowing down in preparation to stop for the light. Some guy in his car behind me was right on my tail, but I thought to myself, 'c'mon, it's only another block and a half...why can't he just wait for the light behind me?". I turned around for 2-3 seconds and gave the guy a stare, but nothing else.

So, we get to the light, it changes green just as we're at the intersection. I cross the thoroughfare into the Fred Meyer parking lot and the guy in his car continues to follow me. I sensed trouble, so I pulled my bike up off the street right next to the store entrance. The guy stops his car right in the middle of the parking lot traffic lane, gets out and rushes over to me, frothing incoherently. He wasn't drunk, just very agitated at something that had to have had a whole lot more to do with something other than me holding him up slightly for a block and a half. Well, maybe not. Maybe he was just nuts. This was during the day, broad daylight with lots of witnesses, so no problem, but in the dark, late at night, could have been a different story.

Morale of the story: There's crazy people out there. Don't hold them up, let them go. Get rid of them. If they really seem crazy, try remember their license plate number and file a report.

Tbird
10-15-2007, 09:27 PM
the vehicle with the greater potential to maim, injure and accelerate has the burden of restraint. Yes if the bike is setting the pace, then thats the pace. Don't like it? Move to Texas!

We have to lose the mentality that it's best to accomodate motorists first just because they COULD go faster.

rainperimeter
10-16-2007, 01:24 AM
We have to lose the mentality that it's best to accomodate motorists first just because they COULD go faster.

oh shit! laying down the law. this is the way it ought to be...

PDXGS
10-16-2007, 05:44 AM
We have to lose the mentality that it's best to accomodate motorists first just because they COULD go faster.

I disagree with that mentality statement...why wouldn't you accomodate anyone- a fellow cyclist, a pedestrian, a car? Is it so hard to wave them on if it's safe to do so? Someone who knowingly and purposely blocks another's way is, in my book, an ass....if they're doing it for their own safety that's one thing, if their doing it to intentionally delay then it's ass-behavior. If you like to ride this way then I'd suggest that you're more likely part of the problem.

And don't knock Texas....at least they build roads with decently wide shoulders!

Tbird
10-16-2007, 08:44 AM
I am not advocating intentionally blocking the roadway. Of course, that's unsafe and piggish.

What I am knocking is the 'Cars First' mentality that has a strangle hold on American society. Even among cyclists it is common to hear, "just move over and let them by". I think this only emboldens and reinforces the auto primacy. As a motorist is it common to expect a slower moving vehicle to simply move to the curb to let speeding teenagers and Starbuck slurping Soccer Moms to zip by just because they WANT to go faster?
Of course not.
Bicycles should be afforded the same courtesy.

The original question as I understand it, asks if a bike as a solo occupant of a lane then encounters a motorist from behind, does the bike's pace qualify to set the pace of traffic with regard for the "traveling at the speed of traffic..." that would allow full occupation of said lane. Again I say yes.

Cars, motorcyclists, unicycles, pogo sticks and roller skates would then at that point be expected to safely and cautiously travel at said pace.

OK, sorry I dogged Texas.

lazlo
10-16-2007, 08:46 AM
Sharing the road means the courteous thing to do would be to let the car pass you. Thinking that you set the pace just because you were on the street first is self-centered to say the least.

Haven_kd7yct
10-16-2007, 09:14 AM
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying in the original post, but:

If you're in a neighborhood, the speed limit is 25mph, posted or not. (I had a cop tell me this.) If you aren't doing the speed limit, you should either attempt to do so, or stop holding up other people.

Yes: I understand the speed "limit" is the maximum limit on that road; however, morally, are you in the right to hold up other people just because you can?

This is the problem we see on the freeways: somebody sits in the left lane at 64mph in a 65mph zone and holds up everyone behind them "because they shouldn't be going so fast". Who made you the morality police?? All you're doing is creating bad feeling in everyone behind you, and impeding traffic flow.

As a car driver and a cyclist, I try not to block other people from going their way. Unless it's a school zone during school hours; then I don't mind cruising at 20, car or bike. :)

But seriously, this whole idea of "I was on the road first, therefore I have the perogative and it's my road" is sickening selfish BS. You're doing a lot to create and foster anger and bad feelings in your fellow road users.

Yes, FELLOW ROAD USERS. What happened to sharing?? What happened to everything you learned in kidnergarten? Maybe this is what's wrong with people these days. Me, me, me.

Tbird
10-16-2007, 09:39 AM
But seriously, this whole idea of "I was on the road first, therefore I have the perogative and it's my road" is sickening selfish BS.
Yes, FELLOW ROAD USERS. What happened to sharing?? What happened to everything you learned in kidnergarten? Maybe this is what's wrong with people these days. Me, me, me.


You're right. This is the problem with folks today. 'ME'
'It's mine. My car and you better recognize.'

Sharing is a 2-way street. Plenty of times bikes move over to allow motorists by everyday. When will the inverse be common place?

I think the spirit of the question supposes there may be a time that the slower road user sets the speed of traffic. I'm not sure anyone has advocated "owning" the street as you've suggested.

lazlo
10-16-2007, 10:00 AM
[QUOTE=Tbird;6676]You're right. This is the problem with folks today. 'ME'
'It's mine. My car and you better recognize.'QUOTE]

...and, my bike and you better recognize me, even if I'm riding inappropriately for the street I'm on.

PDXGS
10-16-2007, 10:21 AM
You're right. This is the problem with folks today. 'ME'
'It's mine. My car and you better recognize.'

Sharing is a 2-way street. Plenty of times bikes move over to allow motorists by everyday. When will the inverse be common place?

I've had more cars move over to share my lane than not.
Look, an ass is an ass is an ass- I don't care what mode of conveyance you're using. It's a judgement I make based soley on an individual's behavior. When you act like a dick you shouldn't expect the world to think of you as anything but a dick no matter what kind statement you're trying to make or how much you whine about your rights in the process.
Don't be a dick....and most of the time the world will ignore you.

toddistic
10-16-2007, 11:21 AM
broad daylight? i travel in the traffic lane if im within 5mph of the car traffic.

that car can wait one or two minutes in a residential street while you continue.

teach the cagers paitence whether they like it or not.

Tbird
10-16-2007, 11:26 AM
Dear Pot,
No need for profanity, name calling and derision. Play nice or don't play.
-Kettle

Tbird
10-16-2007, 11:36 AM
broad daylight? i travel in the traffic lane if im within 5mph of the car traffic.

that car can wait one or two minutes in a residential street while you continue.

teach the cagers paitence whether they like it or not.

Exactly.
No one is advocating corking Burnside/Hawthorne or some other main arterial at rush hour in order to evoke confrontation. This discussion is about RESIDENTIAL streets. Ya' know the place where we live, kids play, dogs run about and should generally be quiet and safe.

No one is advocating being rude, or innappropraite usage or any other negative behaviour. So let's have the original discussion about pace setting on slow speed streets.

PDXGS
10-16-2007, 12:28 PM
Dear Pot,
Play nice or don't play.
-Kettle

Ride the talk

PDXGS
10-16-2007, 12:30 PM
teach the cagers paitence whether they like it or not.

You're making a big assumption here in thinking that "they" can be taught. They can't, and to assume otherwise is risky at best.

Jim E. Hat
10-16-2007, 01:46 PM
Can the driver justify their annoyance that they need to slow down for me in the sixth block?

yes. you are biking too slow.

Tbird
10-16-2007, 02:05 PM
Can the driver justify their annoyance that they need to slow down for me in the sixth block?

yes. you are biking too slow.

See, there it is. Cars first.
Too slow for whom? The motorist?
Why is it the motorist who dictates the pace?

180mm_DaN
10-16-2007, 02:16 PM
Don't forget the details here: The car tailing me in the last block was only 100 feet from their house (after turning right). I literally held them up one block (200 ft.). I was also 100 feet from my house after turning left.

I'm not advocating riding "slower" than traffic on busy commuting streets (for any reason), like Hawthorne (which I disagree and cringe at). When I ride downtown I'm always riding the speed of traffic in full-lane (it's not difficult).

Yes-- I will usually wave a car by BUT there must be a limit! And this instance is for me. Otherwise, I say the sooner the car passes the better.

Thanks for confirm the 25mph limit.

Also, what would my neighbor do if I was in car going slow (looking at house, talking on phone, etc.)? They would most likely would have had to follow me! That's what burns me. They'll wait/slow for a car but not a bike?! Are motorcycles supposed to wave by cars?

Thanks TBird for your vote - that's all I needed -- I don't feel so crazy...

180mm_DaN
10-16-2007, 02:58 PM
I just discovered this paradigm of Vehicular Cycling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicular_cycling)

(via from commenter #50 "Sam Hill" on Portlandbike.org re J. Maus's post "Safer Streets:" on new signage idea)

Yes!

(One revelation here is that the bike occupied the streets before the car back in the 19th century...)

Jim E. Hat
10-16-2007, 03:40 PM
according to the Vehicular Cycling theory, you were in a single lane that you could share due to your skinny width. you decided to go primary position and take a lane, fair enough... but you were only going 10 mph, which might justify some drivers to be annoyed at you for going 15 mph slower than the speed limit, which is your original question.

180mm_DaN
10-16-2007, 05:33 PM
Jim Hat: Block 6 ended in in a T -- i.e. a dead end -- vehicles must turn right or left -- AND both me and the car were virtually home after that turn.

So, knowing this, I'm supposed let the car pass in the last 200 ft? No.
and 10mph is not as slow as it sounds.

Part of theory includes "Using the full lane unless overtaking traffic is likely to be delayed and the marked traffic lane is wide enough to share."

There was no significant delay for the car. Also consider also they needed to slow down to take turn at block's end, so passing in the last block was not reasonable driving.

Yeah the world ain't perfect but I can practice my ideal, aligned with Vehicular Cycling-- if I could just keep my temper in check...

Schrauf
10-16-2007, 06:13 PM
In your VERY specific set of circumstances, taking the lane for a full block in preparation for the left turn appears okay, but at the very least you should have accelerated - 10 mph is NOT very fast. Speeding up when the car arrived would have at least conveyed you were aware of their presence and respected it.

If 10 mph was enough for you, and it was safe to move over, you should have moved over. Respect goes both ways.

Haven_kd7yct
10-17-2007, 07:19 AM
First: calling people in cars "cagers" or using other derogatory labels and stereotypes doesn't help the conversation. I drive, and I cycle; what does that make me?

Second: how do you know that your neighbor is actually going to be going to his house? Maybe he changes his mind and makes that left or right to go somewhere else because he forgot to go to the store for milk or whatever. Maybe you could talk to your neighbor and find out what his take on the subject is.

Look, I'm not advocating "cars first", but in this country, majority rules; and face it, that ain't the cyclists.

I'm also not talking about corking Hawthorne or whatever; I'm talking having respect for your neighbors and fellow road users.

The only way traffic flow works is if you can trust that the other road users are going to agree to follow the same rules. That phrase, "other road users" includes cars, cyclists, pedestrians, etc.

What your neighbor would do if you were in a car: be angry at you for driving 15 under the speed limit. Way to foster yet more anger and negativity. <sarcasm on> That's EXACTLY what we need, more anger! <sarcasm off>

Jim E. Hat
10-17-2007, 09:19 AM
if I could just keep my temper in check...

did you approach your neighbor after the incident, claiming you were setting the pace at 10 mph and that they should follow suit becuase the speed limit is not posted? ...and were you mad about it?

if i may try and answer your question for a third time, this gives the driver even more of a reason to be 'annoyed'

now will you admit that the driver has every right to be annoyed at you for blocking the road and getting all bent out of shape about it?

karlkras
10-17-2007, 10:01 AM
On this issue of 25mph if not posted... does anyone else find this to be an excessive speed to be traveling down congested neighborhood streets? Let's be clear here, the "limit" does not mean this is the speed you should be traveling, the speed you should be traveling is dictated by the road conditions presented at that specific place and time, e.g., If a child should be in the road, you don't have the right to continue traveling at 25mph. If there are piles of snot slick leaves across the road, should you be allowed to maintain 25mph? Or even if there's a slower vehicle in the road. It's my experience that many vehicle operators (and I'm not excluding bicycles, its just that cars can cause much more damage) view the "limit" as if it's their "right" to travel at this speed, be damned conditions.
But in short, my main point... 25mph is simply excessive in most cases around my neighborhood in the NE quadrant.

Tbird
10-17-2007, 10:37 AM
On this issue of 25mph if not posted... does anyone else find this to be an excessive speed to be traveling down congested neighborhood streets? Let's be clear here, the "limit" does not mean this is the speed you should be traveling, the speed you should be traveling is dictated by the road conditions presented at that specific place and time, e.g., If a child should be in the road, you don't have the right to continue traveling at 25mph. If there are piles of snot slick leaves across the road, should you be allowed to maintain 25mph? Or even if there's a slower vehicle in the road. It's my experience that many vehicle operators (and I'm not excluding bicycles, its just that cars can cause much more damage) view the "limit" as if it's their "right" to travel at this speed, be damned conditions.
But in short, my main point... 25mph is simply excessive in most cases around my neighborhood in the NE quadrant.

Booyah! I couldn't have said it better myself.

Jim E. Hat
10-17-2007, 11:44 AM
...well, the subject of whether or not 25 mph is too fast of a speed limit is completely irrelevent to this particular thread...there's smart people and stupid people, which is never going to change. stick to the topic, which is whether or not the driver should be annoyed at 180MM_DaN... and on that topic, he has not mentioned whether or not he antagonized his neighbor after the incident.

rainperimeter
10-17-2007, 12:48 PM
...well, the subject of whether or not 25 mph is too fast of a speed limit is completely irrelevent to this particular thread...


what? i think this has a lot to do with the thread, considering this is all about a guy on a bike not going the full speed limit and someone behind him wanting to get by because of that.

i think the word *neighborhood* in the thread title needs particular stress. NEIGHBORHOOD. where i live, where you live. if you're in a rush, hit up an arterial. neighborhood streets aren't the place for zipping around making other users uncomfortable just because you feel slightly inconvenienced by *slowing down*.

and speaking of drivers wanting bikers out of the way: this has happened to me twice but i just witnessed this happen 2 weeks ago. Biker, first at the red light on SE 34th (34 & Division), facing south, presumably heading towards Clinton. Smallish SUV behind biker and in front of me. She's creeping up on the guy and towards the right, implying a right turn to head west on Division, minus a turn signal btw. The guy isn't moving, i would think mostly because 34th is really narrow and uh, he doesn't have to. The lady in the SUV rolls her window down and asks the guy to get out of the way! he looks totally stunned, moves over as much as he can without crossing the center line (which was still hardly enough room), gives her a wtf? type look with hands in the air. if the biker had not been a biker but a car, she'd have waited. that's the sort of shit that needs to stop.

ephany
10-17-2007, 01:06 PM
I'm with T-bird. We're talking about a block and half or less than a minute of time and yet still he's supposed to scurry to the side of the road? Talk about second class citizen (or maybe third or fourth) treatment. I would've expected a little more sympathy on a bike forum.

My friend had similar experience on a quiet neighborhood street recently where she felt the need to go up on the sidewalk and alter her route, the driver was so aggressive. He lectured her about 'staying to the right' (she couldn't have been any further over without running into parked cars) and basically exhibited the attitude that she had no right to the road, especially if it meant holding him up for a whole block. Revenge is sweet...he was only blocks from his house so we went by recently and stuck a safety postcard (http://www.shift2bikes.org/safety/) on his windshield. Sounds like some of you could stand to read it too.

I did not get the impression that Dan is advocating blocking the road for the sake of blocking the road--merely that his destination is every bit as important as the car's, so why shouldn't he go ahead and make his turn?

I don't understand how that's 'being an ass' anymore than expecting cars to stop at crosswalks if you're a pedestrian trying to cross (seems less and less of them are doing that these days too).

Recently I was riding down Ainsworth from Greeley to 33rd Ave. After MLK, the street becomes much busier. For safety reasons, I had no problem taking the lane and 'making cars wait'. I've had too many idiots think that my riding to the right was an invitation for them to squeeze by unsafely, possibly sending me into a parked car. When we got to a stretch of street wide enough for them to pass then I moved over.

Obviously, tail-gators, drunks and crazies are a different story and safety should always be the first consideration, but the normal, considerate drivers behind me on this occasion didn't seem to have any problem with our arrangement. No one blew by in a huff, gave me the finger or any other such display of impatience or aggression.

That is what I would call sharing the road.

Jim E. Hat
10-17-2007, 01:09 PM
what? i think this has a lot to do with the thread, considering this is all about a guy on a bike not going the full speed limit and someone behind him wanting to get by because of that.

wrong, if we lowered the speed limit 10 mph to 15 mph, the same thing would have happened. if we raised it to 35 mph... again, same outcome. it is only relevant if the posted speed limit was 10 mph, at which 180mm_DaN would be justified in being angry because his neighbor was breaking the speed limit to pass him.

so the question of whether or not 25 mph is a safe speed limit has nothing to do with the thread starter's question... it's also not a time for anecdotes about stupid drivers, which also distracts from the original question.

i believe that the neighbor is justified in being annoyed at 180mm_DaN using the information given. if you do not agree with my opinion, then please reference the situation, and state why you think he should not have been annoyed.

Jim E. Hat
10-17-2007, 01:16 PM
I did not get the impression that Dan is advocating blocking the road for the sake of blocking the road--merely that his destination is every bit as important as the car's, so why shouldn't he go ahead and make his turn?

he argues:

"I argue, the bicyclist is going the "normal" speed of traffic because it is the only vehicle on the street until the 4-wheel approached. The bike speed leads and not the 4-wheel's potential speed. The bike has already set the speed because it was in the lane first. If the 2-wheel was a 4-wheel instead, the same interpretation applies."

i think that's illogical, personally, and sort of an unsafe mindset as it relates to vehicular transportation.

180mm_DaN
10-17-2007, 02:03 PM
now will you admit that the driver has every right to be annoyed at you for blocking the road and getting all bent out of shape about it?


"Jim E. Hat": That's antagonistic! [edited out my rude comments here]

2. You've thinly articulated an argument for the car beyond the info I've supplied. Give us a rationale beyond Cars Rule on a BIKE forum.

The point is MY annoyance -- Of course I can't control rude drivers but I can still talk back! And I bring it up here in the forum because I've got a valid position (hence the specifics).

The entire post is born out my discussion with my neighbor who actually did tail me.

I motioned with my hand (flat pushing down gesture, rather effective) and sternly declared "Slow Down!". Then they actually stopped and intentionally engaged me. So I turned around and responded. They proceeded to tell me how the speed was 25mph and they ride their bike regularly, they live around there, they have a kid...The general point was they care and know the law!

In retrospect, my point of tailing was not articulated because I was fuming. I also now think they were going to engage me regardless because they thought I was rude too!

So it's a day in the life a bike commuter. (Hat, I'm judging you've few hours experience per year)

My neighbor, who I hadn't met before, has good intentions. And I have good intentions. However, their annoyance doesn't justify rude driving toward me. And likewise, my annoyance doesn't justify my rude talk to them.

Civility requires a discipline that can't always be mustered!

Jim E. Hat
10-17-2007, 03:52 PM
OK, let’s retell the full story:

“This is North Portland, but could be NE and SE below 82nd. I've ridden 3-4 short-pdx blocks at the faster side of 10 mph without any cars behind me (or even passing opposite direction). In the 5th block a vehicle begins sharing the block/lane with me. At the end of block six I will turn left because the street ends, and the vehicle will turn right. The vehicle tails me in block 6. After my turn I would allow the vehicle to pass. Block 6 ended in in a T -- i.e. a dead end -- vehicles must turn right or left -- AND both me and the car were virtually home after that turn. The car tailing me in the last block was only 100 feet from their house (after turning right). I literally held them up one block (200 ft.). I was also 100 feet from my house after turning left. my neighbor …actually did tail me. I motioned with my hand (flat pushing down gesture, rather effective) and sternly declared "Slow Down!". Then they actually stopped and intentionally engaged me. So I turned around and responded. They proceeded to tell me how the speed was 25mph and they ride their bike regularly, they live around there, they have a kid...The general point was they care and know the law!”

And your question, which is basically:

“Can the driver justify their annoyance that they need to slow down for me in the sixth block?”

I answered yes along with a few other people. That was an unsatisfactory answer for you, so you want me to articulate it more than “cars rule”. OK fine, but you have to let go of a huge talking point:

“and the vehicle will turn right. The vehicle tails me in block 6. After my turn I would allow the vehicle to pass.”
“even if the 4-wheel is only going one more short-block...!”
“The car tailing me in the last block was only 100 feet from their house (after turning right). I literally held them up one block (200 ft.).”
“There was no significant delay for the car.”

This is all post-facto information that neither of you knew during the incident, so let’s omit the info from the story. Also, a T intersection is not a dead end, and calling it so confuses the story, so let’s tell it again:

“This is North Portland, but could be NE and SE below 82nd. I've ridden 3-4 short-pdx blocks at the faster side of 10 mph without any cars behind me (or even passing opposite direction). In the 5th block a vehicle begins sharing the block/lane with me. At the end of block six I will turn left. Block 6 ended in in a T vehicles must turn right or left --. The driver…actually did tail me. I motioned with my hand (flat pushing down gesture, rather effective) and sternly declared "Slow Down!". Then they actually stopped and intentionally engaged me. So I turned around and responded. They proceeded to tell me how the speed was 25mph and they ride their bike regularly, they live around there, they have a kid...The general point was they care and know the law!”

So you were both like WTF? He was annoyed, you were annoyed. The reason is the same, you’re both thinking, “geez, I’m almost home, why won’t this dude chill/hurry up?”

So that’s my rationale for the car, and for you too apparently…

Then you say:

“if I could just keep my temper in check...”
“The point is MY annoyance, of course I can't control rude drivers but I can still talk back!”
“Civility requires a discipline that can't always be mustered!”

That can only aid the driver’s perception of you, and bikers in general, as foul mouthed control freaks. We all know car drivers are foul mouthed control freaks, but you’re not helping the biker’s cause, sorry.

You’re right, I don’t bike commute, but I should. I think it’s a wee bit too far and hilly for the mornings, but I’ll give it a shot. Basically 35th and Hawthorne to Bridgeport Village… I did get in about 350 miles in September however. I don’t know if that’s a lot, but they were fun miles. Of course, I’m usually drunk wearing ear buds, so…

Tbird
10-17-2007, 04:19 PM
go ride your bike.
You spend too much time at the computer. ;)
Have a nicer day!

Jim E. Hat
10-17-2007, 05:05 PM
go ride your bike.
You spend too much time at the computer. ;)
Have a nicer day!

whatever bro, you have 8 posts on this thread too, don't try and make this about internet usage. It's about trying to understand the mindset of a particular driver in a particular incident. try and stay on topic.

rainperimeter
10-18-2007, 01:12 AM
wow jimmy hat. way to keep us on task! sorry about my anecdote! i thought it was sort of relevent in a "get out of my way" kind of way. i was trying to use it as a smokescreen to get the heat off of dan. you saw through my bullshit though. sorry dan.

as a full time, 365 day a year, no matter the weather biker i felt i understood dan's story pretty well and i say to hell with dude in the car. far too often through passive aggressive driving bullshit you get the impression you're not allowed/wanted on the road. fuck that. i'm tired of it. just because i'm not in a car doesn't mean i'm not allowed use of our streets. make someone travel slower than the maximum speed limit on a neighborhood street? for ONE block??? fucking go for it. dan has somewhere to get just like that dude in the car (and of course he told dan he was a regular biker...they all are) and just because dan is a bit slower in going than dude in car doesn't mean shit. if dan's thread was this: "...so i'm in the left lane on sandy and i'm gonna turn in like 8 blocks and all these cars are behind me honking and i've got a coffee in my hand so i'm going slow cuz it's really hot and i'm like wtf?..." i'd be with you. but dan is what? a block away from his house? or is he on his block? i dunno. i'm siding with dan

if someone was on your ass and you were on your block on the way home you'd be pissed too, so why are you acting like you wouldn't be?

Haven_kd7yct
10-18-2007, 08:20 AM
Rainperimeter, you said,

"if someone was on your ass and you were on your block on the way home you'd be pissed too, so why are you acting like you wouldn't be?"

Hm. Yes. Whether in a car or on a bike.

Look, in the interest of fairness, and respect for others (not just people on bikes, which seems to be the way this whole thread is trending: fuck cars, we own the roads too), look at this statement from the other side.

Cyclists want motorists to respect their rights on the road, but you don't want to give any respect back. Why should motorists give a damn about cyclists' rights if this is the attitude y'all are giving off???

On second thought, this whole forum has turned into car-bashing to no good effect. Exactly what are you doing to enhance the cycling community in the eyes of the motorist community? Alternatively, what are you doing to enhance the cycling community to get more people out of their cars and onto bikes?

Creating animosity for the sake of creating it (because that's what it looks like)... where do you think that animosity goes after they leave that situation with you? It gets passed on, and passed on, until you have roads full of angry motorists and aggressive cyclists, everyone pointing how it's their "right" to drive/ride here. Get over yourselves.

PDXGS
10-18-2007, 08:31 AM
Rainperimeter, you said,

"if someone was on your ass and you were on your block on the way home you'd be pissed too, so why are you acting like you wouldn't be?"

Hm. Yes. Whether in a car or on a bike.

Look, in the interest of fairness, and respect for others (not just people on bikes, which seems to be the way this whole thread is trending: fuck cars, we own the roads too), look at this statement from the other side.

Cyclists want motorists to respect their rights on the road, but you don't want to give any respect back. Why should motorists give a damn about cyclists' rights if this is the attitude y'all are giving off???

On second thought, this whole forum has turned into car-bashing to no good effect. Exactly what are you doing to enhance the cycling community in the eyes of the motorist community? Alternatively, what are you doing to enhance the cycling community to get more people out of their cars and onto bikes?

Creating animosity for the sake of creating it (because that's what it looks like)... where do you think that animosity goes after they leave that situation with you? It gets passed on, and passed on, until you have roads full of angry motorists and aggressive cyclists, everyone pointing how it's their "right" to drive/ride here. Get over yourselves.


Agreed, and well said.

180mm_DaN
10-18-2007, 09:26 AM
OK, let’s retell the full story:

You’re right, I don’t bike commute, but I should.

Thanks for your admission. You've now been eliminated from the jury. See
you on my bike tail. ;)

The naysayers are certain my situation is impossibly justified.
The supporters, and more over those who shared similar experiences (thank you!), understand my description.

At this point the naysayers arguments are simple reactions to generate zit popping effects-- e.g. to reduce the matter to actual speed differences (10mph v. 25mph) shows ignorance of my description.

PDXGS
10-18-2007, 09:41 AM
Thanks for your admission. You've now been eliminated from the jury. See
you on my bike tail. ;)

The naysayers are certain my situation is impossibly justified.
The supporters, and more over those who shared similar experiences (thank you!), understand my description.

At this point the naysayers arguments are simple reactions to generate zit popping effects-- e.g. to reduce the matter to actual speed differences (10mph v. 25mph) shows ignorance of my description.


Well, so much for objectivity...

karlkras
10-19-2007, 01:05 PM
...well, the subject of whether or not 25 mph is too fast of a speed limit is completely irrelevent to this particular thread...there's smart people and stupid people, which is never going to change. stick to the topic, which is whether or not the driver should be annoyed at 180MM_DaN... and on that topic, he has not mentioned whether or not he antagonized his neighbor after the incident.

Frankly Jim E, I must argue that it is not "completely irrelevent [sic]". Also in the topic is the overall question of safety while navigating through neighborhood/residential areas.
On the question of whether the driver can justify their annoyance that they need to slow down for the cyclist, it's our right as human beings to be annoyed, or not, by whatever we choose, or not. If the driver believes that they have the right to travel the speed "limit" regardless of the conditions presented and thusly gets annoyed, then I would suggest they get reeducated to the laws of the road for the overall sake of safety concerns of other inhabitants of the area. Or not.

beelnite
10-19-2007, 02:29 PM
Leave it to me:

Sometimes while either riding or driving on a neighborhood street - If I see a vehicle (auto, bike, skateboard) preparing to leave their driveway- I will actually slow or stop and wave them onto the street.

Weird, huh? Well, heck, they live there. It's their street. I'm borrowing it.

The Tao of Roadsharing?

beelnite
10-19-2007, 02:32 PM
Today I grew frustrated with traffic downtown and left the lane, rode the side and hopped a driveway - I was 15 feet from my bike parking and just cut a Rt. Turner off.

Impatience isn't limited to "Cagers". I need to behave better. Thank you for listening to my confession.

Relevance: The cars were moving too slow for my liking so I became "annoyed" and took my life in my hands. Dumb.