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thinpaperwings
07-02-2007, 06:13 PM
That is what another cyclist said to me today. I was (unfortunately) driving in my car on the way back from the vet, and saw 4 cyclists run multiple stop lights near 99E and Broadway. Some of them stalled long enough to gauge the traffic before running the light, but one guy in particular blew right through it even though cars were coming across still. I drove up beside him and slowed down and yelled out the window "Please don't run red lights!"

While this fellow may think it is none of my business, I disagree. The actions of cyclists affects how all cyclists are perceived by drivers and voters. Among my boyfriend's family, he and I are seen as rarities among cyclists because we obey traffic laws as if we were motor vehicles. While there are plenty of intersections that force a cyclist to run a red light or else wait for eternity, this intersection was not one of those. Nor was it an empty intersection.

We all share the road together, and our actions effect each other. To think that your actions are isolated when riding among traffic in the city is foolish.

Am I being out of line, here?

Rixtir
07-02-2007, 06:33 PM
Am I being out of line, here?Nope. What happens in the public space is our business.

wsbob
07-02-2007, 06:54 PM
No. thinpaperwings, I don't think you're being out of line either. I think what it's easy for cyclists to forget, is how stressful it can be for a responsible car driver in the position of having to try and figure out what some cyclists are going to do at an intersection where their car may be a factor. Four-way stops are one example. Once you get them rolling, cars are harder to stop, and more dangerous if you can't do it in time. Some car drivers do worry about that.

mizake
07-02-2007, 08:31 PM
I would've said the same thing.

Duncan
07-03-2007, 08:13 AM
Who yelled out at me to ride on the sidewalk as I biked up Holgate? I was taking a whole lane but there were two... was it ok for him to say that because it was a public space?

What about my (unprintable) reply? was that?

My thought is yes on all counts- you can tell them you think that running stop lights is bad, the dick in the rice burner can tell me to get on the sidewalk, and I can tell him to go to hell (more or less), and the bicycilist can tell you to mind your own business... speaking your mind doesnt hurt anyone does it?

norse rider
07-03-2007, 10:01 AM
I think what you did was just fine. It really makes me mad when other cyclists blow stop lights, stop signs, and do not follow the rules of the road.
One of the chief reasons I biked all winter and ended up with out to many bumps and scraps is because I followed the rules of the road. Now this is not to say that I always obey every traffic law but for the most part the men and women I know who have had the least amount of trouble with injury are those who are safe and know what to do in traffic. Blowing stop lights is not cool.

Attornatus_Oregonensis
07-03-2007, 10:22 AM
Freedom of expression is a beautiful thing, a national treasure. I'll always support your right to say what you want.

But please keep in mind that the person who slows way down and rolls through the intersection is exactly the same in the eyes of the law as the person who slows a little, checks both directions, and keeps going. They're both $242 fines. So, next time you feel like yelling at someone who may feel as though he or she has safely gone through an intersection even though you disagree, think hard about all those times you just couldn't bring yourself to come to a full and complete stop, put your foot down, and look around before continuing on your way. Your subjective assessment of safety in those situations might be different, but the objective assessment is the same.

Maybe you should pull yourself aside and deliver a stern lecture into the mirror. Or maybe you always stop at each and every traffic control device. In that event, congratulations on your well-earned moral superiority.

Oh, and if you do decide to yell at me, please be prepared for me to exercise my freedom of expression as well.

Rixtir
07-03-2007, 11:59 AM
Who yelled out at me to ride on the sidewalk as I biked up Holgate? I was taking a whole lane but there were two... was it ok for him to say that because it was a public space? Do you truly not understand the difference between unsafe, illegal behavior, and safe, legal behavior? Or are you just being disingenuous?

Rixtir
07-03-2007, 12:02 PM
Oh, and if you do decide to yell at me, please be prepared for me to exercise my freedom of expression as well.Ah, yes, the same "F-off" I got when I was buzzed by a red light runner and merely pointed out that I had the right of way. That's exactly the kind of public image cyclists should cultivate.

nishiki
07-03-2007, 12:11 PM
That is what another cyclist said to me today. I was (unfortunately) driving in my car on the way back from the vet, and saw 4 cyclists run multiple stop lights near 99E and Broadway. Some of them stalled long enough to gauge the traffic before running the light, but one guy in particular blew right through it even though cars were coming across still. I drove up beside him and slowed down and yelled out the window "Please don't run red lights!"

While this fellow may think it is none of my business, I disagree. The actions of cyclists affects how all cyclists are perceived by drivers and voters. Among my boyfriend's family, he and I are seen as rarities among cyclists because we obey traffic laws as if we were motor vehicles. While there are plenty of intersections that force a cyclist to run a red light or else wait for eternity, this intersection was not one of those. Nor was it an empty intersection.

We all share the road together, and our actions effect each other. To think that your actions are isolated when riding among traffic in the city is foolish.

Am I being out of line, here?

Are you some sort of citizen cop? Pay attention to the road instead of road raging with a cyclist!

mizake
07-03-2007, 12:18 PM
Ah, yes, the same "F-off" I got when I was buzzed by a red light runner and merely pointed out that I had the right of way. That's exactly the kind of public image cyclists should cultivate.

Not at all what AO said ;)

thinpaperwings
07-03-2007, 09:36 PM
Nishiki, I don't think I was "road raging" with the guy. I asked him to please not run red lights, with an entreating (though possibly patronizing) tone, not an angry one. I think road rage requires rage.

I'm sure he didn't appreciate being heckled, but he could have said "mind your own business!" instead of mocking me with a whiny tone (which probably didn't come across in writing).

A_O, I do stop at lights and stop signs whether I'm on my bike or driving my car. I wait for the roll back in both cases (which I have been told is fine by the eyes of the law) and look around. I don't think that's so outlandish, nor should one feel "moral superiority" about it (unless they really want to).

However, I do think it is fair for me to entreat another human to not endanger themselves and especially those around them by their actions.

thinpaperwings
07-03-2007, 09:44 PM
I should clarify that last bit.

What I mean is, I think it's fair for me to entreat another human to not endanger themselves, and it is especially fair to entreat someone to not endanger those around them. I am not implying that blowing red lights while cycling endangers others (usually in motor vehicles) moreso than yourself (on the bike).

Jakelin
07-04-2007, 07:21 AM
Are you some sort of citizen cop? Pay attention to the road instead of road raging with a cyclist!

Nishiki, you obviously don't understand what 'road rage' means. I would politely suggest you do some research on it before using that term in future posts.

mizake
07-04-2007, 07:24 AM
i have a problem with people in cars yelling anything at me.

Duncan
07-04-2007, 02:30 PM
Do you truly not understand the difference between unsafe, illegal behavior, and safe, legal behavior? Or are you just being disingenuous?

Do you not inderstand that people may have differing view points of what is safe behavior? Do you understand that the basis of my post was about the ability to voice one's opinion, as opposed to the act itself? Are you so sensative that opposing view points endanger your world view?

My point is that the driver in my case was sharing an opinion ( one I disagree with, seeing as I was doing the mid lane biking) and I shared my opinion of him (in equaly clear terms when I met up with him at the next stoplight)

That kind of exchange is cool with me- no had he buzzed me, swerved into my lane or acted in an unsafe way, that would have been different, but my driver (like the origanal poster) used langauge to espress a personal opinion, which is legal and safe last time i looked, and while I disagree with my driver and agree with the poster of this thread, I still say that both have the right to say what they need to say.

On a tangen- one of the things that irritates me about people who shoot through red lights (and yes i am a red light roller) is that when I try and slow down before a stop sign because the driver has the right of way, they will often assume I am going to take the right of way and wait for me out of turn... which I know Oregonians do all the time anyway (outr of a missplaced sense of courtesy I presume), but I noticed this was way more common when I rode my road bike versus my town bike... makes me think that when they see a road bike headed to a stop sign they assume that he will blow it.

Duncan
07-04-2007, 02:31 PM
i have a problem with people in cars yelling anything at me.

jeeze everyone toughen up a bit, or we will have to call none-waaa waaa to get the waaambulance and take you to the twaaama center :-D

mizake
07-04-2007, 03:46 PM
"none-waaa waaa".

i have no idea what that means. and when people yell at me from vehicles (usually as they're passing me, or heading in the opposite direction) they're usually not wishing me a nice day. hence, when i hear a loud voice coming from a vehicle i generally tense up a bit.

thinpaperwings
07-04-2007, 08:43 PM
When I see people do things that have a high probability of leaving them a puddle of guts on the road, I tense up a bit, too. :(

Simple Nature
07-04-2007, 10:25 PM
If in a car and you really don't like a cyclist's actions... drop a glass bottle in front of him/her. It WILL get a dialog started probably starting with "WHY THE HELL DID YOU DO THAT!?"... Now you got their attention and can calmly explain that you didn't appreciate them putting your life in danger by running the red light. If you're on the bike and someone "annoys" you (as posted above)... Use that sharp pointed pinky ring and take out at least 3 serious panels on the car when you catch up to it... One nice long continuous scratch. Do it nice and slow if you can while staring into their eyes... which will grow as you continue. Also be prepared to ride the other way - quickly! as some may actually have a concealed weapon.

Note: You'll find that the older beater cars are more rude then the beamers and the benz crowd... ever wonder why? (Hint: they DO have more to loose!).

Of course, everything expressed here is tongue in cheek... Don't go off vigilante style and start peppering the bike lanes with glass and don't go looking for the next Vette to shred... I'm just saying, this is the alternative to letting people be themselves or getting in their face (regardless if it's a smile or frown).

Personally... I stop! at reds and signs... I go wide when a bike is present or slow if need be... and I stop in mid-course to let someone cross the street. Its not hard to be kind... And forgiving!

OldHouseMan
07-05-2007, 08:11 AM
I agree, mind your own business. Would you have chased down a car if the person driving it ran a red light or made a California stop? Would you have chased down a car if they were driving on the wrong side of the raod? Probably not.

nishiki
07-05-2007, 08:27 AM
quote:
I drove up beside him and slowed down and yelled out the window "Please don't run red lights!"

Teach your kids not to run red lights and stop pretending you care about other people actions. You yelled at a stranger because your were comfortably and safely seating in your cage, ready to step on the gas and cell phone in hand if your 'fellow' would become aggressive.
Would you yell at someone you encounter walking down the street? I did not think so.
At the end of the day, yelling at people will not change anything, it just gets everyone pissed off.

Rixtir
07-05-2007, 03:15 PM
At the end of the day, yelling at people will not change anything, it just gets everyone pissed off.Kind of like blowing through red lights, cutting off everybody else's right of way?

Rixtir
07-05-2007, 04:21 PM
Do you not inderstand that people may have differing view points of what is safe behavior?Did you miss this part?:

one guy in particular blew right through it even though cars were coming across still.

Are you so sensative that opposing view points endanger your world view?Get over yourself.

thinpaperwings
07-05-2007, 07:13 PM
Nishiki and OldHouseMan: I do speak my mind when I see people doing something dangerous (that is, dangerous to me) even when I am not "comfortably and safely seated in my cage". The other day on my way to work a truck was half in the bike lane when he had room not to be. As I pulled up beside him, I emphatically yelled up "You're in the bike lane!" He might not have realized that what he is doing is rude and dangerous. At the very least now he knows it pisses people off. And yet there was little old me on a bike next to a very large truck, the men could have easily tried to run me off the road or something.

I didn't say something to the guy because I felt secure and pretty sitting in my car, I said something to him because I constantly see cyclists running lights, and he did so with extra abandon, and I felt like something should be said. Maybe he'll hesitate a little next time and not get killed.

Saying nothing is a form of acceptance.

pdxtex
07-06-2007, 02:06 AM
i dont even know why this has to continue to be a debate....if you ride a bike, please obey the traffic laws!!!!

Attornatus_Oregonensis
07-06-2007, 06:47 AM
i dont even know why this has to continue to be a debate....if you ride a bike, please obey the traffic laws!!!!

Wow, I can't believe nobody thought of that before -- great idea! Unfortunately, this isn't a discussion about obeying traffic laws.

TiAx
07-07-2007, 05:38 PM
Sounds like a good intersection for the police to watch.

I once had someone yell at me to get out of the road when I was in a bike lane!

Duncan
07-08-2007, 07:09 AM
I once had someone yell at me to get out of the road when I was in a bike lane!

yeah that has happened to me too.

Duncan
07-08-2007, 07:10 AM
Get over yourself.

whatever dude your origanal statement was trolling for a response. lighten the hell up yerself.

Rixtir
07-08-2007, 01:43 PM
whatever dude your origanal statement was trolling for a response. lighten the hell up yerself.OK. Let’s go back for some truth-checking. Let’s start with the original post:

… I was (unfortunately) driving in my car on the way back from the vet, and saw 4 cyclists run multiple stop lights near 99E and Broadway. Some of them stalled long enough to gauge the traffic before running the light, but one guy in particular blew right through it even though cars were coming across still. I drove up beside him and slowed down and yelled out the window "Please don't run red lights!…

Am I being out of line, here?Nope. What happens in the public space is our business.

Who yelled out at me to ride on the sidewalk as I biked up Holgate? I was taking a whole lane but there were two... was it ok for him to say that because it was a public space… Now, thinpaperwings made a post about some guy who ran a red light—not a stop sign, but a red light, which is illegal even in Idaho—and violated the right of way of several other people who had a green light. You equated that guy’s unsafe and illegal behavior of blowing through a red light while other traffic was crossing the intersection on a green light with your safe and legal behavior of riding in the lane. My response was:

Do you truly not understand the difference between unsafe, illegal behavior, and safe, legal behavior? Or are you just being disingenuous?You replied:

Do you not inderstand that people may have differing view points of what is safe behavior? Do you understand that the basis of my post was about the ability to voice one's opinion, as opposed to the act itself? Are you so sensative that opposing view points endanger your world view? The only argument you presented to my claim that what happens in the public space is our business was utterly disingenuous. When I pointed out what should have been obvious to you, you responded with “Are you so sensative that opposing view points endanger your world view?”, a textbook example of projection, now reiterated with your comment “lighten the hell up yerself.”

I’m perfectly willing to exchange views with you, Duncan, but disingenuous arguments aren’t worth anything more than the exchange you got. If you want a genuine discussion, then approach it with some integrity. If you don’t want a genuine discussion, then accusing others of trolling doesn’t pass the laugh test.

drunk/brakeless
07-16-2007, 06:39 PM
this topic is the reason i joined this forum.

I would recomend that everyone just do there own thing and shut up. yes i know this is portland and everyone is "progressive" and that this "bike culture" will gain momentum if we all follow the laws of the road and work together. but that sh*t is a little to utopian for me.

yes i run lights, signs, ride brakeless and intoxicated, w/o hands, w/o a helmet, w/ headphones and often against traffic. I am quite aware of the laws and have been pulled over multiple times (never citied though, ha) My view is that i ride a bike because it is simpler, cheaper, faster(if I "break the law"), more fun and less stressful than driving, and if i choose to ignore the laws (which I think were written long ago and when bicycles were not as popular on public roadways...?)then let it go. Yes i know i am endangering myself and technically others(i am always hearing about "cyclist kills driver of SUV" tales. Your little comments do nothing but piss me off. If you honestly think I am going to take into consideration what you say then we should get some beers because I would love hear what else is on yer mind, i'll even buy.

If you do choose to say something, then please be prepared for anything, especially considering the fact that you are yelling at me for breaking a law. I have no problem following you home and "talking" about your comment nor do i have any remorse about an unfortuate broken window at the next stop sign (brass knuckles fit nicely in jersey pocket...)

Yes i own a car and will drive alone 3 blocks while speeding to get beer if i dont feel like riding or walking or whatever, i know i am a bad person, I even shop at fred meyer (gasp!) as far as cyclist or drivers who break the law, dont care...its called defensive drving, let portlands finest do their job and shoot' em (myself inlcuded)

im know this post is full of grammatical errors, overuse of parentheses, sarcasim and general disregard, that was the point.

im gonna do a j while y'all type up yer responses.

Rixtir
07-16-2007, 06:48 PM
Threatening to follow a woman home for some violence?

Impressive.

Your little comments do nothing but piss me off.Tough.

drunk/brakeless
07-16-2007, 06:51 PM
i am tough, i even have tattoos.

Rixtir
07-16-2007, 06:55 PM
i am tough, i even have tattoos.Not many of those in this town.

drunk/brakeless
07-16-2007, 06:59 PM
I know! gosh the only thing that out numbers tattoos in this town is lesbians, my mother would not approve thats why i moved here from the midwest and bought a fixie at veloshop....

bikey3
07-16-2007, 07:06 PM
If you do choose to say something, then please be prepared for anything, especially considering the fact that you are yelling at me for breaking a law. I have no problem following you home and "talking" about your comment nor do i have any remorse about an unfortuate broken window at the next stop sign (brass knuckles fit nicely in jersey pocket...)



This demonstrates perfectly why I would never yell at a stranger on the street...because you never know what kind of psycho you might be dealing with. Just cuz they're on a bike doesn't mean they're logical or intelligent or a decent person, as drunk/brakeless points out. Maybe thinpaperwings was 100% right, maybe not, that doesn't mean it's smart to shriek (or politely reprimand, whatever) at strangers. For your own safety. It's generally not the best way to get people to listen to you, anyway.

misc.
07-16-2007, 09:00 PM
(brass knuckles fit nicely in jersey pocket...)

Somebody's momma didn't hug them enough.

chopstic
07-16-2007, 10:36 PM
If its illegal behavior, why would you not confront them or report their behavior to the police... A buddy of mine recently witnessed some dangerous motorcycle behavior on the highway and actually followed the bikes to a gas station long enough to write down their plate numbers and report them. If no one ever confronts law-breakers then they may keep getting away with their lawless behavior until someone gets hurt. If you saw someone cutting a bike lock would you say something???? or would you just turn your head and "mind your own business"?

mizake
07-17-2007, 05:08 AM
"If you saw someone cutting a bike lock would you say something???? or would you just turn your head and "mind your own business"?"

That's where I draw the line. If I see (and I haven't yet) someone cutting a bike lock, I will ask questions. If it's my bike lock, I won't ask questions ;)

A cyclist running a stop sign? I could really give a shit.

If I see a cyclist blow a stop sign with disregard to someone's right-of-way I just think that person's an asshole. If I see a car do the same thing, I think that person's a dangerous asshole and will probably yell at them.

Am I biased against cars? You bet your ass I am.

beelnite
07-17-2007, 12:57 PM
I struggle with the 4 way stop thing. On my route, there is usually no one around - and good visibility at the 4 ways. If a vehicle, pedestrian (especially... they love it when you overdo it with respect for their safety) or another bike is also approaching the intersection I very dramatically and obviously go out of my way to obey to the letter.

But do I really have to go through the motions and break momentum at 5:30 a.m. with nary a soul on the road? Also, the longer I dink around at the intersection the more I think my risk of being in a motor vehicles path increases. Why not just get through as quickly and safely as possible? Is there no room for interpretation of the traffic laws that like one poster said were written long ago and hardly applicable the same way today?

I know this is slightly off-topic. But man, it seems like just flat out harrassment to ticket bikers for "rolling stops". If they haven't endangered anyone including themselves or stolen a right of way - really, what is the big deal?

Well I guess the deal is, the law is the law. It's rather unethical to pick and choose what laws we'll obey isn't it? Gosh, what does that say about my character? If I'm willing to fudge the lines on stop signs what's next? Embezzlement? Enron? Illegal arms deals? Military contracts?

So anyone willing to support an effort to rewrite the bike traffic laws? Anyone know what it would take to start the process? To lobby for "leeway" on the streets?

Side note: 4 way stops actually hurt the environment. A motor vehicle must completely stop. Use more fuel to regain momentum. Wear and tear on the vehicle increases. More exhaust is produced. Maybe we should lobby for the same exception -- or at the very least...

BING! We bikers could help the City determine which stops should actually be "yields". Is this totally crazy or what?

Random thoughts:
Most people think it's OK to go 6-9 mph over the speed limit on the freeway.
Bike culture - our actions do send a message.
I usually apologize to other cyclists who stop at the sign with no cross traffic in sight whilst I sorta slow, check and roll through. "Hey, I know, sorry..."
Other times, if I'm behind, if they stop, I stop. It's kinda not cool to pass at intersections.
Be more vigilant about obeying the laws on the outer SE or you could die. These folks don't seem to know what to do about 2 wheeled non-motorized vehicles.

Speaking as a citizen: beelnite.

wsbob
07-17-2007, 08:16 PM
The idea of a roll-thru at a stop sign where there may be almost no traffic at all may be o.k., but is it going to work safely if roll-thru's become legal? Can we really rely on the individual interpretation of each person that arrives at a stop sign/signal intersection about whether it's safe to stop completely, or roll-thru a stop sign/singal intersection?

Yes, complete stops for cyclists are annoying sometimes, and complete stops do result in extra gas burned for drivers to get their cars rolling again (but how much would that be?....there's a challenge for some researcher !.) Though this may be the case, the requirement that a complete stop must be made at a stop signed/ signal intersection clearly implies to road users, the extra care they need to be using when they approach such intersections.

I know people have been talking about these roll-thru stop signs in Idaho and how they work so well. I'm just not sure I see it working safely here in Oregon, at least not in the tri-county area. At the very least, a maximum roll-thru speed would probably have to be specified, otherwise you'd have people blasting through them at full speed.

Rixtir
07-17-2007, 08:41 PM
At the very least, a maximum roll-thru speed would probably have to be specified, otherwise you'd have people blasting through them at full speed.That's the thing-- the Idaho law states that cyclists have to slow to a "reasonable speed" and yield, before rolling through. If people think that there's no room for police interpretation of "reasonable speed," they're mistaken. There's a LOT of room for interpretation of "reasonable speed," and guess what? If the officer testifies that your roll-through speed wasn't reasonable, you are going down.

drunk/brakeless
07-17-2007, 08:44 PM
i find it amusing that so many people are concerned about the "law", is this based in morality? fear of a ticket? what is it?

I try to look at riding with no regard to the law, my goal is to get from a to b with way less hassle than in my car, and "breaking the law" is part of that, i obviously have no concern about this but am quite curious about others views.

as far as safety, I honestly feel safer rolling through stop signs, red lights, etc, becuase I put myself in a little more control (in my eyes, i suspect others will disagree) of situations than i would by assuming every driver will stop

it not as if i roll through with no obsevation like many of my "fellow cyclists" do when they have green lights...

if bike culture needs me to follow the "legal rules of the road" then count me out...this is my rant for the night

wsbob
07-17-2007, 09:10 PM
Re; Idaho stop sign/signal roll-thru law: I'd want to think a long time before allowing the term "reasonable speed" to be the guideline for how fast a road user could roll-thru. A specified speed seems safer and more consistently reliable.

Re; drunk/brakeless: There's always going to be people in the world like drunk/brakeless. I don't mind. I even get a kick out of them (as in find them amusing) just as long as they're sharp enough in the way they do what they do, so as not to hurt or kill anybody. The problem is, lots of people aren't sharp enough, and that's where some kind standardization comes in real handy.

misc.
07-17-2007, 09:11 PM
I know people have been talking about these roll-thru stop signs in Idaho and how they work so well. I'm just not sure I see it working safely here in Oregon...

Why not? Us Idahoans made it work just fine.

Donald
07-17-2007, 09:40 PM
If you're 20 and you don't roll through stop signs, you have no soul.

If you're 40 and you do roll through stop signs, you have no brain.

wsbob
07-17-2007, 10:06 PM
To misc, the person from Idaho: I suppose a lot would have to do with the intersections where the law applied. Would it be all of them or just some of them?

I know there are times when rolling thru would pose absolutely no threat to safety. I'm concerned about those situations where people approaching a signed intersection look quick(because they're moving, mind you), see a vehicle coming, think they can make it, but misjudge it. Is the likelihood that this will be the outcome comparable, greater or less than that of situations subject to law requiring a full stop?

Duncan
07-18-2007, 04:52 AM
If you're 20 and you don't roll through stop signs, you have no soul.

If you're 40 and you do roll through stop signs, you have no brain.

phew got two years left... thank goodness.

beelnite
07-18-2007, 01:35 PM
You know what might also work... identifying unnecessary stop signs along bike routes. Like on SE Lincoln. C'mon CoP there's speed bumps and intersection circles - a posted speed of 25 mph - why do we need 4 way stops on the steepest hills?

Also, traffic circles. They're big in Europe and designed to keep traffic moving safely. I recently took a driving course for work and the instructor was an English import. He broke it down for us pretty convincingly that our 4-ways in the States are actually more dangerous and wasteful than the traffic circles in Europe. Then he went on to demonstrate how the traffic circles we do set up in the states are pretty much worthless... we put freakin statues and trees in the middle... a good traffic circle allows visibility.

Hey the Idaho Rolling Stop reminds me of something - A number of years ago I lived in Montana during the time the state passed the "reasonable & prudent" speed limit. You probably heard it as "no speed limit in Montana". So did a lot of other folks. The locals were fine with it. Seems Montanan's just instinctively know how not to kill themselves on their highways. However, the law (or lack thereof) was later rescinded because during the summer months (tourist season) the out-of-staters insisted on killing themselves (and others).

Oh! One last thing - The "law" thing - asked by drunk/brakeless. Well for me it is simply an question of ethics. I believe we are defined by our actions large and small - so if I'm willing to cheat a little for personal gain (time, convenience) what else am I capable of? Where is the line?

Oh I don't take myself that seriously, but anytime a person violates a "law of the land" it seems worth examining. Maybe it's an unjust law that should be broken, eh? I think it's also cuz I'm a parent and I think about that stuff... setting an example all that. When I'm with the kids I won't cross the street against the light even though it's ridiculous to stand there with no one around.

But at work downtown... wait for the walk light? fegeddaboutit!

Citizen Beelnite

Rixtir
07-18-2007, 01:52 PM
I think it's also cuz I'm a parent and I think about that stuff... setting an example all that. When I'm with the kids I won't cross the street against the light even though it's ridiculous to stand there with no one around.I even do that for other people's kids! I figure why undo what their parents are trying to teach them?

so if I'm willing to cheat a little ... what else am I capable of? Where is the line?Ask Cheney and Bush, they live by that credo...

misc.
07-18-2007, 05:27 PM
To misc, the person from Idaho: I suppose a lot would have to do with the intersections where the law applied. Would it be all of them or just some of them?

I know there are times when rolling thru would pose absolutely no threat to safety. I'm concerned about those situations where people approaching a signed intersection look quick(because they're moving, mind you), see a vehicle coming, think they can make it, but misjudge it. Is the likelihood that this will be the outcome comparable, greater or less than that of situations subject to law requiring a full stop?

In Idaho, the rolling stop applies to all stop signs. We're required to come to a complete stop for red lights, but are able to proceed once we determine there's no cross traffic.

In any crowd, there's at least one individual destined to win the Darwin award. That's no reason for the rest of us to ride training wheels. If someone is so fearless, foolish or intoxicated to take those risks, there isn't a law written that'll save them.