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Clarification on KGW’s ‘rogue bike path’ story – UPDATED

Posted by on June 29th, 2010 at 10:41 am

KGW TV ran a story Monday night titled, “Another rogue bike path in Forest Park.” Here’s the opening of the story:

“A new illegal bike path in Forest Park has trail users upset, with near misses between docile people on foot and speeding mountain bikers emerging out of nowhere.

And here’s the video:

The KGW reporter says the trail was built in “protected wilderness” of Forest Park and the story centers on a man who alleges that he was almost run over by someone biking down the trail.

However, it’s important to note that the trail in the story is not in Forest Park.

According to Dan Moeller, the Natural Areas Supervisor for Portland Parks and Recreation, the trail in the KGW story is in Washington Park. Moeller also says that he’s been aware of illegal trails in this area for “10 years or more” and Parks has been trying to stop the activity for just as long. This summer, Parks is working with youth crews to deconstruct the trails and install fencing to discourage it from happening in the future.

It’s not to say that an illegal trail is any less serious if it occurs in Washington Park, but it’s an important distinction given the heated debate over biking access in Forest Park recently. It’s also completely inaccurate to describe the area where this trail was built as being “protected wilderness.”

*UPDATE: KGW has edited their online story to reflect the correct location of the trail. Headline now reads, “Rogue bike path frustrates hikers along Portland’s Wildwood Trail.” (Unfortunately the newscast already ran and the video portion of the story is not as easy to fix.)

In other off-road biking news, Parks Planner Emily Roth — the woman who oversaw the recently concluded advisory committee on bike access in Forest Park — will speak at the monthly meeting of the Northwest Trail Alliance tonight. Roth will share updates on the Forest Park issue, talk about recent improvements to Powell Butte, and will talk about Parks’ next steps on bike skills parks. The discussion will also include stewardship opportunities and how to curb illegal trail construction and use.

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  • HypocrisyFinder June 29, 2010 at 11:03 am

    It sure would be nice to have even a casual survey of unauthorized trails in city parks to determine how those paths actually got started and established. And perhaps KGW TV would like to follow that up with a headline like: “Bicyclists are Least Responsible for Illegal Trail Building.” But that probably doesn’t sell as much beer.

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  • Brad June 29, 2010 at 11:29 am

    Sadly, it does not surprise me that biker vs. hikers in Washington Park has become an issue. I’ll add a related personal complaint to this story that affects a good number of bike commuters.

    Get on the westside MAX most summer afternoons about rush hour and you’ll see the likely culprits. There are generally groups of 4-6 young men with very filthy downhill MTBs forcing their way onto the trains at Goose Hollow to ride up to the zoo. They clog the aisles, brush their mud covered rigs up against people, and can’t complete a sentence or phrase without at least one loud f-bomb in it. Their disrespectful behavior makes it tough for mixed mode commuters to get their bikes aboard the trains and I’ve been verbally accosted by MAX riders trying to get my road bike on since I’m one of those “a-hole bike riders”. Last summer, some passengers even refused to let anyone with a bike board out of spite.

    KGW and other media outlets have been having field day with coverage of illegal trails. This, and the off trail anctics that I’ve described above, are just ruining the possibility of decent MTB opportunities close to downtown.

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  • J.R. June 29, 2010 at 11:32 am

    It also appears from the video that this is an established (perhaps unwanted) but established foot trail. So saying that the “[rogue biker] was forging an illegal trail through Forest Park’s protected wilderness” is inaccurate in at least three ways. The sign they point to says “Washington Park/Hoyt Arboretum” right on it. C’mon! If you took the time to drive all the way up there toting a camera and microphone, you might as well get the facts right.
    Why did this even get reported to KGW? Why not just call the police or parks and have the poacher busted?

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  • Jonathan Maus (Publisher/Editor) June 29, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    KGW has edited their headline and story online to reflect the correction location of the trail. Headline now reads: “Rogue bike path frustrates hikers along Portland’s Wildwood Trail.”

    I had emailed with reporter Randy Neves (whom i’ve worked with several times throughout the years) and he dealt with it right away.

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  • wsbob June 29, 2010 at 12:08 pm

    “…The sign they point to says “Washington Park/Hoyt Arboretum” right on it. …” J.R. #3

    Incredible. What are they doing over there at KATU? Reminds me of that decades old Saturday Night Live skit ‘Hire the incompetent’.

    “…Get on the westside MAX most summer afternoons about rush hour and you’ll see the likely culprits. There are generally groups of 4-6 young men with very filthy downhill MTBs forcing their way onto the trains at Goose Hollow to ride up to the zoo. …” Brad #2

    Brad…that’s interesting…are you sure you’re seeing mountain bikes that are being ridden off-road, and not zoo bomb bikes, that as I understand it, are ridden on the street?

    I’m not sure that “…biker vs. hikers …” is an issue in Washington Park. It’s been awhile since I’ve been up there, but I have to wonder whether people are hiking the foot paths through this park as much as much as they’re using them to walk up to illegal campsites. Last time I was up there southwest of the reservoirs, years ago, it was a bit unnerving to come upon somebody’s stuff all sprawled out in the woods, hoping they weren’t lurking somewhere nearby out of sight, waiting… .

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  • ceder June 29, 2010 at 12:10 pm

    i got a solution to mtb hiker conflict just make all the trails bike only! the problem here is as a city we need to meet the needs of all our citizens and have a multi use trai system in our “bike friendly city”. Stopping biking in the park will never happen, we need to accept this develop a trail system and stop the hiker mtb conflicts. I am one of your “cant put a sentence together” riders.

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  • wsbob June 29, 2010 at 12:10 pm

    Whoops! Looks like I’m the incompetent one this time. Correction: KGW…not KATU…sorry!.

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  • Brad June 29, 2010 at 12:31 pm

    wsbob – My assumption is that they are using the trails, illegal or improved, to some degree. Unlike the usual ZooBomb crew, these are full suspension MTB covered in fresh mud or dust and riders are wearing full face helmets and pads (downhill kit). Their conversations are generally, “Dude! I almost f##king bit it on those roots…” or “I lost my f##king wheel on that washed out…” leading me to believe that they are not exclusively bombing down the paved park roads.

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  • michweek June 29, 2010 at 12:39 pm

    And some people wonde why I don’t own a t.v. anymore.

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  • ceder June 29, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    I’m not sure that “…biker vs. hikers …” is an issue in Washington Park. It’s been awhile since I’ve been up there, but I have to wonder whether people are hiking the foot paths through this park as much as much as they’re using them to walk up to illegal campsites. Last time I was up there southwest of the reservoirs, years ago, it was a bit unnerving to come upon somebody’s stuff all sprawled out in the woods, hoping they weren’t lurking somewhere nearby out of sight, waiting… .

    Four years ago we proposed a bike sight away from any hiker trails only to be told by the city it would endanger the enviroment.
    We removed over 17 bags of trash from the sight.
    I’ll admit we continued in defiance to use the sight soley covered in invasive covered english ivy. Only to have the city bring in heavy equipment leveling several trees to remove the trail and flatten the whole area to bare dirt causing massive mud runoff that winter.
    And we “damage the enviroment”

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  • f5 June 29, 2010 at 12:51 pm

    WSBOB: The trains are filled with downhill mountain bikers in sunny afternoons and rush hour heading up to the zoo to bomb trails through washington park. It’s been going on for years.

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  • matthew vilhauer June 29, 2010 at 12:59 pm

    brad, ummm…. i just want to point out the hiker vrs. biker conflict has been an issue since the 80′s.

    the wildwood was a great trail to ride and if a simple thing called “respect” was taken to heart the conflicts would be few and far between. always yielding to hikers, being vocal to announce your presence but not alarming, trying not to skid, etc..

    also the concept of self/community policing has gone by the wayside. see someone pulling a dick move? call ‘em on it i say. politely and in a matter of fact way. avoiding confrontation and litigation seem to rule people’s thoughts and actions these days. if you are able to let someone know how eff’d up they are and they thank you for it it’s a victory for everyone.

    those “culprits” also tend to spend lots of money on parts and gear. they are an asset to many local businesses. it takes all kinds to make the world go round. try riding a greyhound bus sometime. the max is tame by comparison.

    i certainly won’t condone illegal trail building or riding on hiking only trails on the whole but…. have you ever blown a stop sign, sped or failed to yield? community/self policing would go a long way to uniting user groups rather than creating an “us vrs. them” atmosphere.

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  • wsbob June 29, 2010 at 1:19 pm

    “WSBOB: The trains are filled with downhill mountain bikers in sunny afternoons and rush hour heading up to the zoo to bomb trails through washington park. It’s been going on for years.” f5 #10

    hey f5…that’s interesting. I wonder what awareness the parks department has about the volume and type of off-road biking that’s going on in Washington Park. For the purpose of helping it make decisions about how to provide off-road biking access to other parks in the city, the Parks Dept, if it doesn’t have one already, should attempt to arrive at some idea how of much off-road biking currently occurs in Washington Park.

    Doesn’t seem like this has been the subject of in-depth reporting. It’s ‘the homeless’ rather than off-road biking that has always seemed to be offered as the explanation for activity on trails there.

    To the extent your comment confirms Brad #2′s account of MTBkrs on the train, this use of the park may actually be one that people should be taking a closer look at.

    Re; Brad’s reference to “…f-bomb…”; Hard to know from his comment how serious swearing associated with MTBkrs on the train really is. Sounds kind of like he’s mostly needing to get things off his chest. If it really is a loud, obnoxious problem though, I’d think the train operator could hear it over the intercom in his operators compartment, and do something about it.

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  • Velophile in Exile June 29, 2010 at 2:34 pm

    The only thing funnier than the idiocy of this report is the ever-present earnest cluelessness of bob’s comments here at bp.

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  • Max June 29, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    I hiked the Wildwood from the Zoo to Pittock Mansion & down a few weeks ago (passing the archery range) and I ran into some bikers on the trail. I told them they weren’t allowed to bike on the trail and they said “yes we are.”

    We continued walking and the next access point (and every one thereafter) saw clear signs that said biking was prohibited.

    I’m not sure if they were lying, or just clueless. Maybe they came off of this unauthorized trail.

    They’re certainly not making any friends out there.

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  • Brad June 29, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    I am merely pointing out what I have observed as a very pro-bike individual. MTB advocates have been pleading with the city for a very long time to get more trail access in Washington and Forest Parks. I feel that these downhill kids (they appear to be teens) jeopardize those efforts and are likely the riders complained about in KGW’s coverage.

    Also of concern to me is their behavior on MAX. I can handle the crude language but I do see it visibly disturb others riding the trains. My sense is that these non-riding citizens form the opinion that ALL bike riders are crude, disrespectful based on observation and media coverage. When public commentary is solicited by Portland Parks about trail access or by Tri-Met on bikes on transit, these are the folks with terrible tales that outweigh our side’s “because it would be nice to have” arguments.

    Matthew – I wish that “respect” was still in the American vocabulary. Even politely trying to police other individuals is viewed as disrespecting them and their view of freedom often leading to confrontation. It is a direct threat to their ego. If you’re lucky, you get ignored or flipped off. Not lucky, you get the snot knocked out of you or worse. That’s the sad state of affairs in which we live today.

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  • Max June 29, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    wsbob #5:
    I saw dozens of hikers that day. I didn’t see anybody who looked like they were camping.

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  • Steve June 29, 2010 at 2:42 pm

    I work in Washington Park and frequently (1-2 times a week during the summer) come across these guys on my way home…does anyone know who I should call? Is this a PPD matter? It also should be noted that the guys I see are not riding on Wildwood per se, they are transecting in on their way down to the Elephant museum. They karma believer in me assumes at some point they will make contact with a car on Kingston Rd.

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  • Zimmerman June 29, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    Is anyone else tired of trying to climb wilderness mountains only to find they’re city molehills?

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  • BURR June 29, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    The solution to cyclists poaching trails in the park is to provide some real singletrack trails for cyclists ASAP, and not a bunch of whining on BF about it.

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  • SkidMark June 29, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    People have been riding down Washington Park trails illegally on mountain bikes for a few years. When Tri-Met changed their bicycle rules a few years ago they added specific wording about “oversize tires” not being allowed. The reason is because they don’t fit in the bike hook. Downhill mountain bike tires are in the 2.125 to 2.5 range and many won’t fit. They also specify that bikes be “reasonably clean”. I think this was specifically to address the issue of using the Max to get to Washington Park for some illegal trail riding.

    All this does is underline the need for some singletrack mountain bike access within city limits.

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  • wsbob June 29, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    Max #17…as I understand it, people go up at night to sleep in the park. Early in the morning the leave and during the day, they’d be in town, not in the park. Might not be true, but that’s what I’ve heard.

    cedar #10, did your group ever put together some kind of formal proposal for an off-road bike trail, represented with some kind of map? I’ve thought for some time that parts of the wooded area to either side of Hwy 26, rising up the hills would be potential off-road biking area. Because of the highway noise, it doesn’t seem like good hiking country to me.

    Velophile…you neglected to tell us what you consider to be “…idiotic…” about this report, or even what report you were referring to; maus’s or KGW’s. Except for KGW’s screw-up on correctly identifying the park, both seem to have raised some good points.

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  • fairwitness June 29, 2010 at 5:45 pm

    I would like $1 to go to the NWTA for every time the Oregonian, KATU news or any other media outlet misuses or prints the mis-use of the term “wilderness”. I realize I’m off topic a tad here, but this very specific legal designation is being diluted every time the word is wrongly applied to a city park.

    If we abide by this description, we are teaching the city-folk (i.e. voters and lawmakers) that any patch of land with trees on it is wilderness. We’ll lose a lot more land to wilderness designations.

    Frank Church = Wilderness.
    Forest Park = very nice city park.

    List of Oregon wildernesses here

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  • Loren June 29, 2010 at 6:26 pm

    Are people really surprised about the news? They can’t even get the GENERAL location of things right on a regular basis, such as north,east,south,west, let alone a specific park. Speeding out of nowhere! Don’t any of you go and tell anyone how us cyclists teleport! Secret squirrel!

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  • Eric June 29, 2010 at 7:04 pm

    We all need to share the parks. It isn’t a luxury hike / trail run area reserved for only some users. I and many other biker are very responsible.
    we don’t skid our corners destroying the trail, and are very considerate.
    Unfortunately I have had issues with foot users in the park more often than bikes.
    One time walking with my young son on a trail, a jogger instead of calling out…proceeded to trample off trail, mashing the plants to go around us. Another time, on a ONE WAY Bike trail, 3 joggers and a off leash dog going the wrong way forced me to wreck to avoid them. In shock, bleeding from my face, upper body, and legs! The only words uttered by these people was “whistle…here boy…come” to the dog who at least had some concern of my condition!
    This dispute Has been going on for years, and I believe because US bikers keep getting the raw deal! just my 2 cents.

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  • m June 29, 2010 at 9:12 pm

    we really need some more sanctioned trails/parks in town. we bend over backwards for skateboarders (and I’m a skater, too, so I appreciate it) but don’t have nearly as many places for bmx’ers and mountain bikers to shred. if we had a few more outlets maybe things would chill a bit on the protected lands trails.

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  • Minnow June 30, 2010 at 7:38 am

    m: It think “shred” is the key word there.

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  • ceder June 30, 2010 at 7:58 am

    Yes there was a full proposition written up for a bike park with funding and clubs to mantain the trails.
    Here is a link if anybody can find the proposal please let me know.
    http://bikeportland.org/2006/02/14/mountain-pedalers-push-park-proposal/

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  • f5 June 30, 2010 at 8:52 am

    Fairwitness…I agree. I understand just calling something ‘wilderness’ can have a lot of meanings. The glaring err on KGW’s part is they actually went so far as to say ‘protected wilderness’, which SPECIFICALLY means US designated wilderness areas…which city parks are not.

    But I see they’ve since removed those words from the article.

    The reality is…it’s all infotainment. It’s truly about ‘selling beer’ first, providing quality content second (or fourth? fifth?), accuracy third…etc.

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  • wsbob June 30, 2010 at 9:54 am

    hey cedar…thanks for posting the link to the ’06 bikeportland story on PUMP’s(now NWTA). In that story, there is a link to a “…10 page proposal…”. The URL for that link has disappeared from the server. If you’ve got another link for the proposal, post it.

    Maus’s brief story generally detailed the situation with the proposed site. Parks responded that it was an “…environmentally sensitive area…”.

    Getting someone from the parks dept to talk about the status of that area today, and possible plans the parks dept has for the area in future sounds like a good idea in terms of learning what kind of opportunity off-road biking could have there. 4 years past is already quite a long time.

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  • RWL1776 June 30, 2010 at 10:28 am

    http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/06/in_forest_park_biking_and_hiki.html

    Now we got the Doctor’s against MTBers? I’d like to see where they got this tidbit of drivel:

    “The international experience with “multi-use trails” to be shared by pedestrians, equestrians and cyclists has been that the horseback riders and hikers avoid the trails used by the bicycle riders.”

    from the Oregonian today:

    “In Forest Park, biking and hiking don’t belong together.”

    By the board of directors of the Medical Society of Metropolitan Portland
    We would like to address the issue of single-track mountain biking on the hiking trails in Forest Park. Many legitimate concerns are raised by allowing bikes on trails designed for, and until now restricted to, hiking. Some of these issues include damage to trails, destruction of sensitive plants and their habitat, disturbing wildlife and changing the current wilderness atmosphere. Although the aforementioned issues may be deemed important, as a medical society we are most concerned with the health and safety issues.
    Share Single-track mountain biking is often done on trails 3 to 4 feet wide. The current city ordinance pertaining to Forest Park allows cyclists to share a trail with hikers only if it is at least 8 feet wide. Due to the twisting trails and uneven terrain in the park, the sight lines are often short. It seems unreasonable to expect vigorous, exuberant riders to cautiously approach every blind corner or bump. What kind of fun would that be? Because bicycles and hikers are relatively quiet, one can envision many sudden, unexpected encounters, which would be particularly hazardous for young children and the elderly. A stark demonstration of this was the death of a woman hiker during the month of April in Renton, Wash., when she collided with a cyclist on a shared trail.
    Collisions and major trauma are much more dramatic than healthy lifestyles and exercise. However, one of the routine activities we perform as a profession is to advocate for regular exercise as part of a healthy lifestyle. A large number of people use the park for walking and jogging on the trails. Presently about 30 miles of trails are suitable for the combined use of cyclists and pedestrians. Part of the proposal now under consideration is to turn some of the most popular trails into shared use for single-track mountain biking. The international experience with “multi-use trails” to be shared by pedestrians, equestrians and cyclists has been that the horseback riders and hikers avoid the trails used by the bicycle riders. It’s easy to imagine why. Even for the most nimble, it would hardly be relaxing to remain vigilant about what may be coming around the next bend. For the elderly or families with young children it would be especially dangerous. Allowing bicycles on the narrow hiking trails of Forest Park would discourage pedestrian use of these trails and would be counter to our efforts to encourage exercise.
    There are not controlled studies or widespread case reports in the medical literature about accidents between cyclists and pedestrians. However, we should not assume the lack of studies implies safety, nor should we allow the absence of scientific certainty to stand in the way of exercising our common sense. We as physicians see the shared use of these narrow trails as hazardous to both pedestrians and cyclists. Because these dangers are inherently obvious, as has happened elsewhere, pedestrians would begin to avoid these shared trails, reducing their options for recreation and exercise. We ask that the current restrictions regarding cycling on the narrow trails in Forest Park remain as they were wisely written.
    Medical Society of Metropolitan Portland Board of Trustees
    Glenn Rodriguez, MD, president
    John Evans, MD
    Marianne Parshley, MD
    Robert Hayes, MD
    Michael Dorsen, MD
    Bradley Bryan, MD
    R. Bryan Bell, MD
    Sharon Meieran, MD
    Brenda Kehoe, MD
    A.G. Lindstrand, public member
    Cody Evans, MD, resident trustee
    Evan Los, medical student

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  • jered June 30, 2010 at 11:45 am

    I just got word from a clandestine source that this trail was actually started by a some rogue deer. As we all know for centuries deer have been creating rogue trails in parks and destroying the native plant life by walking, sleeping on it and eating it. Never mind those dang deer who sneak into peoples gardens and eat their veggies… When will we see who the real enemy is?

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  • Bjorn June 30, 2010 at 1:45 pm

    @RWL1776

    Sounds like the doctors should be advocating for sharing the trails based on day of the week. I don’t think most mountain bikers are wanting to share these trails at the same time that people are hiking on them, what we want is some periods when the trails are for bikes, this eliminates the conflict these doctors are concerned about…

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  • f5 June 30, 2010 at 1:49 pm

    And I quote Homer Simpson: “Doctors!? Pffft. Doctors are idiots.”

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  • ceder June 30, 2010 at 1:59 pm

    The thing is we don’t want to ride on the hiking trails, we want our own trails with a degree of difficulty that a hiking trail doesn’t provide. Hence the reason for the illegle trail system.

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  • Brian June 30, 2010 at 4:07 pm

    How about a cyclist-led boycott of the doctors listed? If one of them is yours, find a new doctor and tell others to do the same.
    I really think it’s time all cyclists in this city rally together and start to think outside the proverbial box to put pressure on the Parks dept to find solutions now! We can’t even get them to commit a 50′ by 50′ piece of grass to build a dirt pump track for kids, which wouldn’t cost them a penny! How hard would it be to take an already existing trail in Washington Park and legalize it. The kids will pick up shovels (and learn trailbuilding techniques and respect for the environment), and they will ride legally and user conflicts will disappear. What does Parks have to lose? They are so far behind the curve in working with this user group it is ridiculous.

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  • BURR June 30, 2010 at 9:09 pm

    Brian #36 is exactly right, but it’s pretty clear that in the hiker’s fantasy world, there will never be any bike trails in the park, anywhere.

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  • Wesley Mouch June 30, 2010 at 10:11 pm

    On recent hikes in the FP, I’ve noticed a lot of slugs crossing trails and Leif Erickson. I think bikers may be running over some of them so I think we should ban bikers from FP. Are any of those slugs endangered species? If so, maybe we should ban walkers and joggers also.

    :)

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  • wsbob July 1, 2010 at 12:00 am

    In my comment #5, the reason I asked Brad #2 whether he was sure the muddy bikes he was seeing on the train weren’t zoobomb bikes rather than MTB’s, is because…those of you reading that are familiar with a typical zoobomb bike…ZB bikes generally don’t seem to be suitable for a big climb from downtown Portland up the west hills to the zoo; kids, or small, bmx bikes…single speed. with those bikes, it makes some sense to take light rail up the hill and use them to scream on down the hill.

    Mountain bikes on the other hand, generally have multi-geared drive trains that allow riders to easily climb steep grades. So why aren’t they using those gears to climb the hill and then carefully ride back down(if they’re deciding to ride a single width trail through the park, even though its illegal to do so), instead(to the extent Brad’s report is accurate) of taking their muddy bikes on the train, leaving the other passengers with a bad impression of off-road bikers?

    Reading comments to this bikeportland story and others and to the Oregonian guest column linked above in RWL1776 #31′s post… of people in favor of legal off-road biking being made accessible in area parks, it’s no surprise to me why it’s not happened, and may not, for who knows how long.

    The ‘Medical Society of Metropolitan Portland’: anybody here actually bother to check out the group before making wisecracks about their publicly released viewpoint on off-road biking in Portland Parks?

    The group does have a website. Seems like it might not have been a bad idea for someone to call the group up and ask for an explanation as to what prompted them to issue such a statement, before reflexively suggesting they be boycotted, or referring to them as idiots.

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  • f5 July 1, 2010 at 12:30 am

    #39 wsbob: I don’t care why you asked brad about tire mud. You’re not even making sense. downhillers have gears and prefer not to climb. I don’t care to what extent you don’t understand that. I’m not condoning any of this.

    I didn’t call doctors idiots. Homer Simpson did.

    The posted excerpt from the Oregonian is so chock full of misinformation framed as fact it’s laughable, and plenty deserving of mockery. I don’t need to go to their website to get kicked in the face with ingorannce and prejudice any more.

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  • wsbob July 1, 2010 at 1:14 am

    f5…well, I do appreciate your response, such as it is…but no offense…I wasn’t responding to you in particular, but to everyone reading in general.

    Actually, I’ve got a fair idea why the off-road bikers in question aren’t riding up the hill instead of taking light rail; arrogance and laziness.

    You did refer to doctors as idiots. You don’t get to cop out on that by saying poor old Homer did it, when it’s you using his quote here on bikeportland to express your personal, dismissive view of their statement on illegal mountain biking in Portland Parks.

    But why should you worry? Despite your immature rudeness, if you had a medical emergency, any of those doctors would probably have the maturity and decency to work to save your life regardless.

    And besides…docs enjoy a good laugh. Laughing is healthy, and I’m sure any of them reading the comments here in support of off-road biking in Portland, are having some good belly chuckles.

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  • Zimmerman July 1, 2010 at 8:59 am

    wsbob:

    Immediately after reading the opinion post by the ‘Medical Society of Metropolitan Portland’ I visited their website. Only, I didn’t visit to find out why they might have made their recommendation on mountain biking in Forest Park. I went to check the list of member doctors against my own doctors to make sure I wasn’t using their services.

    I can’t imagine I’m the only Portland area mountain biker that did this. Luckily, none of the physicians I see are members of this group.

    Your #41 post is extremely hostile and shows where your opinion on the issue of trail sharing truly lies, regardless of all the information gathering you seem to do in your endless comments.

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  • f5 July 1, 2010 at 9:08 am

    #41 bob: you are trolling for reaction again. please stop.

    downhillers get a ‘lift’ going uphill because that’s the nature of the sport and how the downhill bikes are designed, and not due to arrogance and laziness on the cyclists’ part. The bikes are extremely heavy, and have designed geometry that makes them terrible at climbing. Whistler, skibowl, and other places offer downhill mountain biking in part because it allows riders to get a lift uphill on the ski lifts and gondolas because their bike’s balance is kicked so far back and that their weight approaches 50lbs. in some cases, almost double the weight of a normal trail bike.

    Whistler mountain’s summer biking business model isn’t founded on laziness and arrogance.

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  • wsbob July 1, 2010 at 10:44 am

    “#41 bob: you are trolling for reaction again. please stop. …” f5 #43

    I find that may be what you’re doing. Or maybe it’s that you’re having trouble getting the little gray cells working together well enough to put together an informative response.

    If you had information that would explain why downhill specific off-road bikers might have been using the train to ascend the hill instead of sweating up it on their own power, for the benefit of everyone reading here, you might have pointed that out back in your comment #11, rather than dragging it out and finally posting some content in your second paragraph #43.

    Now that you have, here’s what I think:

    Washington Park isn’t a ski resort or a off-road/mountain bike park. MAX light rail isn’t a ski lift. Sorry about those dudes having bikes that aren’t good for climbing; They might consider using a plain old fashioned mountain bike instead. Pick one of those up used, cheap for $50-$100; save the fancy bike for that trip to Whistler.

    Ask some people besides off-road bikers; for instance, the general public…what they think about off-road bikers using their vitally needed but very expensive to build and maintain light rail train, to haul muddy, downhill specific off-road bikes up the hill to be ridden back down on illegal trails.

    “…Luckily, none of the physicians I see are members of this group. …” Zimmerman #42

    Luckier for them, if you’re not their patient.

    z…sorry you perceive my remarks to be “extremely hostile”. I’m not actually hostile at all. Have though, got to the point where I’ve had enough of people pushing others around to get something they have very little, if any right to. So when people try do that, including in places such as bikeportland comments, I figure, ‘Why stay silent?’. Why let them mercilessly batter people around?

    So if off-road bikers such as f5 and yourself don’t like the “…reaction…” to the remarks you’re posting on bikeportland, perhaps you’d be more comfortable sharing them in private emails. Or contact maus if you think there’s actual abuse going on.

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  • Zimmerman July 1, 2010 at 10:58 am

    A well-written troll is a troll nonetheless. Please feel free to write a 10-paragraph long response comment claiming outrage at name-calling.

    I’m sure that my decision to ride a mountain bike makes me a terrible patient and customer…

    No mountain biking commenter here is pushing anyone around. If you’re making the claim that the mountain bike advocates are larger, more organized and bullying than the hiking/walking groups then you’re delusional. We want to SHARE access to trails. It’s something that happens safely all over the world. Unfortunately, Portland doesn’t seem to be quite as civilized.

    There’s no reason to engage you in private emails wsbob. Your mind is made up. Even so, I’ll happily make you aware of my presence on the trail, stop, say hello, let you pass, (as a hiker’s right of way is part of appropriate trail sharing) and continue riding on in peace when bikes are allowed on the trails in Forest Park.

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  • wsbob July 1, 2010 at 11:38 am

    “A well-written troll is a troll nonetheless. Please feel free to write a 10-paragraph long response comment claiming outrage at name-calling. …” z

    “…well written…” Thank you! Anymore, I don’t feel outrage at you and others calling me a “…troll…”. Nah. Just disappointed. Expected…hoped for something more thoughtful and constructive from you people, in response to anyone’s comments, not just mine…but coaxing it out of you is slow going.

    “…No mountain biking commenter here is pushing anyone around. …” z

    Sure they are. Many of them are regularly, rude, obnoxious and dismissive of people voicing reservations about requests made for off-road biking in Portland Parks. They don’t make an effort to present intelligent, well reasoned responses that could help work out a reasonable proposal for off-road biking in the parks. They’re mostly inclined to use bikeportland to say nasty things about those they find themselves in opposition with.

    Not that you and off-road bike enthusiasts commenting to bikeportland stories and elsewhere ever recognize it, which is probably one of the reasons proposals for off-road biking in Portland Parks gets such an adverse reaction.

    “… There’s no reason to engage you in private emails wsbob. …” z

    z…I have absolutely no desire to communicate with you via private email, and I don’t think I suggested any such thing in the earlier comment. It was my thought that perhaps you and people such as f5 might be more comfortable conversing that way, to avoid “…reaction…” from people that don’t exactly see things your way.

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