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	<title>Comments on: River View Cemetery board rules on bike access</title>
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	<link>http://bikeportland.org/2009/11/19/river-view-cemetery-board-rules-on-bike-access/</link>
	<description>Portland bicycle news, events, culture and opinion.</description>
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		<title>By: Lisa G</title>
		<link>http://bikeportland.org/2009/11/19/river-view-cemetery-board-rules-on-bike-access/comment-page-1/#comment-1470215</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 05:29:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bikeportland.org/?p=26292#comment-1470215</guid>
		<description>Nobody mentions the people who actually visit the cemetary on a bike. I participated in a bike procession to a cemetary for a memorial service a few years back. The West Hills needs bike infrastructure and it&#039;s on the agenda for the Bicycle Master Plan. I don&#039;t know that area very well, but I hope that the consideration for the future includes a bypass route for those just passing through the cemetary. Until separated bikeways are built alongside the roads nearby that were only built for cars, this seems to be the best solution for safety, not trying to assert the so-called &quot;superiority&quot; of the automobile or escalating the &quot;us vs them&quot; mentality at a time when more people are considering biking for all the right reasons. Those who continue to fight the paradigm change will be those who get left behind on the evolutionary path.</description>
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<p>Nobody mentions the people who actually visit the cemetary on a bike. I participated in a bike procession to a cemetary for a memorial service a few years back. The West Hills needs bike infrastructure and it&#8217;s on the agenda for the Bicycle Master Plan. I don&#8217;t know that area very well, but I hope that the consideration for the future includes a bypass route for those just passing through the cemetary. Until separated bikeways are built alongside the roads nearby that were only built for cars, this seems to be the best solution for safety, not trying to assert the so-called &#8220;superiority&#8221; of the automobile or escalating the &#8220;us vs them&#8221; mentality at a time when more people are considering biking for all the right reasons. Those who continue to fight the paradigm change will be those who get left behind on the evolutionary path.</p>
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		<title>By: Linkbeak</title>
		<link>http://bikeportland.org/2009/11/19/river-view-cemetery-board-rules-on-bike-access/comment-page-1/#comment-1468510</link>
		<dc:creator>Linkbeak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 05:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bikeportland.org/?p=26292#comment-1468510</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with Bob_M.  As a daily Riverview Cemetery commuter, I continue to be thankful that this private landowner allows me access.  The real issue is why isn&#039;t the City doing more for SW cyclists by facilitating bicycle travel on the existing public roadways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Bob_M.  As a daily Riverview Cemetery commuter, I continue to be thankful that this private landowner allows me access.  The real issue is why isn&#8217;t the City doing more for SW cyclists by facilitating bicycle travel on the existing public roadways.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://bikeportland.org/2009/11/19/river-view-cemetery-board-rules-on-bike-access/comment-page-1/#comment-1468462</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 03:04:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bikeportland.org/?p=26292#comment-1468462</guid>
		<description>I ride this route frequently as part of a loop from West Linn to and from points north. (FYI- there is long term planning about the potential of a route where the train tracks are. Jonathan, you have covered it here somewhere.) It is a beautiful and tranquil ride with different options to explore. Several times over the years I&#039;ve seen riders being disrespectful, either with excessive speed or crossing graves. With my deep booming voice I&#039;ve called out to them: &quot;Hey! Respect the grounds!&quot;
Note: This is especially effective after dark.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I ride this route frequently as part of a loop from West Linn to and from points north. (FYI- there is long term planning about the potential of a route where the train tracks are. Jonathan, you have covered it here somewhere.) It is a beautiful and tranquil ride with different options to explore. Several times over the years I&#8217;ve seen riders being disrespectful, either with excessive speed or crossing graves. With my deep booming voice I&#8217;ve called out to them: &#8220;Hey! Respect the grounds!&#8221;<br />
Note: This is especially effective after dark.</p>
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		<title>By: wsbob</title>
		<link>http://bikeportland.org/2009/11/19/river-view-cemetery-board-rules-on-bike-access/comment-page-1/#comment-1468450</link>
		<dc:creator>wsbob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 01:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bikeportland.org/?p=26292#comment-1468450</guid>
		<description>beth...20 years to get a great place is lots of hard work, and your effort and choice to do that is, again, admirable. People hearing about your story are going to be inspired to do something similar.

As local government strategy to relieve traffic congestion, having people work two decades to be able to live where they can easily bike to work probably isn&#039;t adequate. Since the discussion is about roads that are a commute route for at least some of the people using them, a good route over the hill, available now, rather than 20 years from now, is quite an asset for the area.

A few people commenting in response to previous threads on this subject have offered an alternative route to both the cemetery and Taylors Ferry on existing streets; maybe it&#039;s good...I can&#039;t remember detail of the route well enough, so can&#039;t say.

For an alternative route to Taylor&#039;s Ferry, someone else mentioned forested, undeveloped land adjacent to TF, that the cemetery owns; one guess as to what the cemetery has in mind for that land eventually. 

With land in the area already platted out, owned and much of it developed, it&#039;s likely to be very difficult and expensive to lay out and build a new, great route up over the hills. That leaves Riverview&#039;s roads. Fortunately, the number of bikes using those roads doesn&#039;t presently seem to be so great as to be an issue in itself. At least no word yet on that issue from the cemetery.

Riverview&#039;s board shouldn&#039;t have to deal with this dilemma...but that&#039;s where they&#039;re at. Quite a number of people seem to understand their dilemma and are willing to help them work on the situation. Everything could turn out well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>beth&#8230;20 years to get a great place is lots of hard work, and your effort and choice to do that is, again, admirable. People hearing about your story are going to be inspired to do something similar.</p>
<p>As local government strategy to relieve traffic congestion, having people work two decades to be able to live where they can easily bike to work probably isn&#8217;t adequate. Since the discussion is about roads that are a commute route for at least some of the people using them, a good route over the hill, available now, rather than 20 years from now, is quite an asset for the area.</p>
<p>A few people commenting in response to previous threads on this subject have offered an alternative route to both the cemetery and Taylors Ferry on existing streets; maybe it&#8217;s good&#8230;I can&#8217;t remember detail of the route well enough, so can&#8217;t say.</p>
<p>For an alternative route to Taylor&#8217;s Ferry, someone else mentioned forested, undeveloped land adjacent to TF, that the cemetery owns; one guess as to what the cemetery has in mind for that land eventually. </p>
<p>With land in the area already platted out, owned and much of it developed, it&#8217;s likely to be very difficult and expensive to lay out and build a new, great route up over the hills. That leaves Riverview&#8217;s roads. Fortunately, the number of bikes using those roads doesn&#8217;t presently seem to be so great as to be an issue in itself. At least no word yet on that issue from the cemetery.</p>
<p>Riverview&#8217;s board shouldn&#8217;t have to deal with this dilemma&#8230;but that&#8217;s where they&#8217;re at. Quite a number of people seem to understand their dilemma and are willing to help them work on the situation. Everything could turn out well.</p>
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		<title>By: beth h</title>
		<link>http://bikeportland.org/2009/11/19/river-view-cemetery-board-rules-on-bike-access/comment-page-1/#comment-1468432</link>
		<dc:creator>beth h</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:24:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bikeportland.org/?p=26292#comment-1468432</guid>
		<description>@ wsbob:

The effort to change my life to a more manageable size and scale took me twenty years, a dozen different jobs and a lot of work. I apologize if I made it sound like a walk in the park. It wasn&#039;t and it isn&#039;t today. 

I recognize that not everyone may be able to choose a life centered around urban density and shorter distances to everything as I have done. But I firmly believe -- without apology -- that those who CAN choose it should, and perhaps even MUST, for the sake of the community, the country and the planet.
If that makes me a radical I can live with it.

As for Riverview&#039;s decision, I think it&#039;s tremendous that the board is willing to continue to work with people who ride their bikes through the cemetery. But the burden for this dilemma shouldn&#039;t be placed upon the Riverview board. It needs to be the job of government to create infrastructure that is truly usable, and useful, for citizens. That private lands appears to be the only way down the hill for folks int hat area seems ludicrous, and city and county governments MUST step in to provide a public solution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ wsbob:</p>
<p>The effort to change my life to a more manageable size and scale took me twenty years, a dozen different jobs and a lot of work. I apologize if I made it sound like a walk in the park. It wasn&#8217;t and it isn&#8217;t today. </p>
<p>I recognize that not everyone may be able to choose a life centered around urban density and shorter distances to everything as I have done. But I firmly believe &#8212; without apology &#8212; that those who CAN choose it should, and perhaps even MUST, for the sake of the community, the country and the planet.<br />
If that makes me a radical I can live with it.</p>
<p>As for Riverview&#8217;s decision, I think it&#8217;s tremendous that the board is willing to continue to work with people who ride their bikes through the cemetery. But the burden for this dilemma shouldn&#8217;t be placed upon the Riverview board. It needs to be the job of government to create infrastructure that is truly usable, and useful, for citizens. That private lands appears to be the only way down the hill for folks int hat area seems ludicrous, and city and county governments MUST step in to provide a public solution.</p>
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		<title>By: matthew</title>
		<link>http://bikeportland.org/2009/11/19/river-view-cemetery-board-rules-on-bike-access/comment-page-1/#comment-1468301</link>
		<dc:creator>matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:51:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bikeportland.org/?p=26292#comment-1468301</guid>
		<description>this summer i was shown the route through the cemetary up to the crest of the west hills by a riding partner (thanks leslie!).  it&#039;s my favorite link to fairmount loop, council crest and skyline.  did i get that right?  i&#039;m still exploring and learning the routes up there.  i had taken gibbs/marquam hill up and it&#039;s pretty brutal.  i also made the mistake of going up gaines(?) omg, now that hurt.   i&#039;m glad the cemetary remains open and with a simple thing called &quot;respect&quot; by cyclists hopefully it will remain so.  it strikes me as odd that folks view the installation of the speed bumps (yes they are pretty harsh and almost unmanageable at anything faster than a brisk walking pace) as a draconian measure to slow down riders.  it&#039;s private property and i do not feel we are entitled to use it any way we see fit.  there has been lot&#039;s of discussion on the term community and some folks seem like they don&#039;t want to be &quot;labled&quot;.  perhaps they feel like it divides and separates people?  i personally don&#039;t have this view and feel it a term that brings people together, makes us more aware and closer to others dispite differences of opinion and diversity.  river view cemetary (to me at least) seems to understand the meaning and value of community and is willing to share their property with users other than what the property is designed for.  if it&#039;s on the terms that they dictate, that&#039;s fine.  i&#039;m just glad they are generous enough to let me use the road.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this summer i was shown the route through the cemetary up to the crest of the west hills by a riding partner (thanks leslie!).  it&#8217;s my favorite link to fairmount loop, council crest and skyline.  did i get that right?  i&#8217;m still exploring and learning the routes up there.  i had taken gibbs/marquam hill up and it&#8217;s pretty brutal.  i also made the mistake of going up gaines(?) omg, now that hurt.   i&#8217;m glad the cemetary remains open and with a simple thing called &#8220;respect&#8221; by cyclists hopefully it will remain so.  it strikes me as odd that folks view the installation of the speed bumps (yes they are pretty harsh and almost unmanageable at anything faster than a brisk walking pace) as a draconian measure to slow down riders.  it&#8217;s private property and i do not feel we are entitled to use it any way we see fit.  there has been lot&#8217;s of discussion on the term community and some folks seem like they don&#8217;t want to be &#8220;labled&#8221;.  perhaps they feel like it divides and separates people?  i personally don&#8217;t have this view and feel it a term that brings people together, makes us more aware and closer to others dispite differences of opinion and diversity.  river view cemetary (to me at least) seems to understand the meaning and value of community and is willing to share their property with users other than what the property is designed for.  if it&#8217;s on the terms that they dictate, that&#8217;s fine.  i&#8217;m just glad they are generous enough to let me use the road.</p>
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		<title>By: wsbob</title>
		<link>http://bikeportland.org/2009/11/19/river-view-cemetery-board-rules-on-bike-access/comment-page-1/#comment-1468287</link>
		<dc:creator>wsbob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bikeportland.org/?p=26292#comment-1468287</guid>
		<description>Maybe it&#039;s some quirk of fate that&#039;s given Riveview Cemetery a travel route over the hill that&#039;s better and more manageable for bike travel than nearby Taylor&#039;s Ferry road is. 

Back in the day, I would think that horses, mules and oxen pulling heavy loads would have preferred the easier climb of Riverview&#039;s roads to the steep grade of Taylor&#039;s Ferry road. Lots of reasons; engineering logistics, property ownership issues, and more, probably had to do with the route up the hill being the ski-run like Taylor&#039;s Ferry Road. 

beth h, you and your partners choice and planning in terms of deciding where to live is admirable. Able to buy a house? Nice! Some of us have to rent what we can get, where we can get it. 

A decent paying job in the same general neighborhood? Even better! A lot of people seem to have to take jobs that aren&#039;t on the same side of the hill as where they live. That can be annoying if you&#039;re the type of person that believes in leaving a low carbon footprint on the earth.

I&#039;d bet you that many of the people climbing Taylors Ferry, Jefferson up through the Washington Park, or Vista up towards Council Crest aren&#039;t actually living in the West Hills in some nice house with a view over the valley. Many of those riding are likely people that are living down in the valley in dinky little places somewhat like I live in.

If people are willing to keep fit and relieve pressure on the transportation system by pedaling up over the hill between Portland and the western suburbs, it certainly seems like a good idea to encourage this. However consciously it may be doing so, Riverview Cemetery certainly seems to contributing to that effort.

That&#039;s a nice thing for them to do. I would like to think Riverview could be helped in some way to keep their roads safely open to people through commuting hours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it&#8217;s some quirk of fate that&#8217;s given Riveview Cemetery a travel route over the hill that&#8217;s better and more manageable for bike travel than nearby Taylor&#8217;s Ferry road is. </p>
<p>Back in the day, I would think that horses, mules and oxen pulling heavy loads would have preferred the easier climb of Riverview&#8217;s roads to the steep grade of Taylor&#8217;s Ferry road. Lots of reasons; engineering logistics, property ownership issues, and more, probably had to do with the route up the hill being the ski-run like Taylor&#8217;s Ferry Road. </p>
<p>beth h, you and your partners choice and planning in terms of deciding where to live is admirable. Able to buy a house? Nice! Some of us have to rent what we can get, where we can get it. </p>
<p>A decent paying job in the same general neighborhood? Even better! A lot of people seem to have to take jobs that aren&#8217;t on the same side of the hill as where they live. That can be annoying if you&#8217;re the type of person that believes in leaving a low carbon footprint on the earth.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d bet you that many of the people climbing Taylors Ferry, Jefferson up through the Washington Park, or Vista up towards Council Crest aren&#8217;t actually living in the West Hills in some nice house with a view over the valley. Many of those riding are likely people that are living down in the valley in dinky little places somewhat like I live in.</p>
<p>If people are willing to keep fit and relieve pressure on the transportation system by pedaling up over the hill between Portland and the western suburbs, it certainly seems like a good idea to encourage this. However consciously it may be doing so, Riverview Cemetery certainly seems to contributing to that effort.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a nice thing for them to do. I would like to think Riverview could be helped in some way to keep their roads safely open to people through commuting hours.</p>
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		<title>By: Kt</title>
		<link>http://bikeportland.org/2009/11/19/river-view-cemetery-board-rules-on-bike-access/comment-page-1/#comment-1468269</link>
		<dc:creator>Kt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bikeportland.org/?p=26292#comment-1468269</guid>
		<description>(BTW, this area is not the West Hills.  It&#039;s part of the dreaded &quot;Southwest Suburbs&quot;, which includes the cities of Tigard, Lake Oswego, West Linn, Tualatin....)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(BTW, this area is not the West Hills.  It&#8217;s part of the dreaded &#8220;Southwest Suburbs&#8221;, which includes the cities of Tigard, Lake Oswego, West Linn, Tualatin&#8230;.)</p>
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		<title>By: Kt</title>
		<link>http://bikeportland.org/2009/11/19/river-view-cemetery-board-rules-on-bike-access/comment-page-1/#comment-1468268</link>
		<dc:creator>Kt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:47:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bikeportland.org/?p=26292#comment-1468268</guid>
		<description>Look, it&#039;s simple: it&#039;s private property.  If the landowners wanted to put up electrified fences and and restrict all non-cemetery-use traffic, they could.

Think of it this way:  How happy do you think the owners of this admittedly private road would be if more car drivers decided to use this road as part of their commute?  You&#039;d be certain to see the gates manned by a guard who would stop you and ask your business before opening the gate to allow you to enter the grounds.

I suppose the cemetery Board could have gone that route.  

IT&#039;S PRIVATE LAND, people.  Time to step up and start lobbying the City of Portland to create bike infrastructure out here, instead of relying on private landowners to give you all-hours access to their property.

I&#039;d suggest that the BTA could help you out, but I think the cemetery is too close to the Portland city border, so you may not get anything from them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look, it&#8217;s simple: it&#8217;s private property.  If the landowners wanted to put up electrified fences and and restrict all non-cemetery-use traffic, they could.</p>
<p>Think of it this way:  How happy do you think the owners of this admittedly private road would be if more car drivers decided to use this road as part of their commute?  You&#8217;d be certain to see the gates manned by a guard who would stop you and ask your business before opening the gate to allow you to enter the grounds.</p>
<p>I suppose the cemetery Board could have gone that route.  </p>
<p>IT&#8217;S PRIVATE LAND, people.  Time to step up and start lobbying the City of Portland to create bike infrastructure out here, instead of relying on private landowners to give you all-hours access to their property.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d suggest that the BTA could help you out, but I think the cemetery is too close to the Portland city border, so you may not get anything from them.</p>
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		<title>By: beth h</title>
		<link>http://bikeportland.org/2009/11/19/river-view-cemetery-board-rules-on-bike-access/comment-page-1/#comment-1468180</link>
		<dc:creator>beth h</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bikeportland.org/?p=26292#comment-1468180</guid>
		<description>Once upon a time I lived in a place where my bike travel routes were severely limited by topography and existing traffic infrastructure. I struggled with trying to find the best way to and from work for TWO YEARS, until I realized that there really was none.

Then I moved.

Suddenly, although my commute was approximately twenty minutes longer than before, I had many more route choices available to me than before and felt MUCH safer -- and calmer -- while using my bike as primary transportation.

Not to be a stick in the mud here, but people who complain about having no safe way to ride their bikes to and from without going through the cemetery should consider where they live and work. If you live and work in the west hills, where bicycle route options are ridiculous at best and dangerous at worst -- and where radical change in this reality seems unlikely because of topography and development concerns -- then maybe it&#039;s time to consider how important bicycling is to you. 

In a car-centric landscape, not every road is equally suitable -- or even advisable -- for bicyclists&#039; use. If dedicated bike-riders concentrate themselves in bike-friendly parts of town and demand amenities, city and county governments will have to listen, as evidenced by the changes to the landscape in inner eastside Portland over the last five years.

Of course, life in the West Hills is not conducive to the kind of density that would in turn be conducive to lives lived on a more intimate, human scale -- which is why, when my partner and I bought a house six years ago, we made sure it was in a place where I could ride my bike to nearly everything that mattered -- work, stores, farmers&#039; markets and even my house of worship. Location matters in creating the kind of urban density that will foster that human scale.

If the cemetery board is ultimately forced by circumstances (or their legal department) to close access entirely, what will those living in the West Hills do then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once upon a time I lived in a place where my bike travel routes were severely limited by topography and existing traffic infrastructure. I struggled with trying to find the best way to and from work for TWO YEARS, until I realized that there really was none.</p>
<p>Then I moved.</p>
<p>Suddenly, although my commute was approximately twenty minutes longer than before, I had many more route choices available to me than before and felt MUCH safer &#8212; and calmer &#8212; while using my bike as primary transportation.</p>
<p>Not to be a stick in the mud here, but people who complain about having no safe way to ride their bikes to and from without going through the cemetery should consider where they live and work. If you live and work in the west hills, where bicycle route options are ridiculous at best and dangerous at worst &#8212; and where radical change in this reality seems unlikely because of topography and development concerns &#8212; then maybe it&#8217;s time to consider how important bicycling is to you. </p>
<p>In a car-centric landscape, not every road is equally suitable &#8212; or even advisable &#8212; for bicyclists&#8217; use. If dedicated bike-riders concentrate themselves in bike-friendly parts of town and demand amenities, city and county governments will have to listen, as evidenced by the changes to the landscape in inner eastside Portland over the last five years.</p>
<p>Of course, life in the West Hills is not conducive to the kind of density that would in turn be conducive to lives lived on a more intimate, human scale &#8212; which is why, when my partner and I bought a house six years ago, we made sure it was in a place where I could ride my bike to nearly everything that mattered &#8212; work, stores, farmers&#8217; markets and even my house of worship. Location matters in creating the kind of urban density that will foster that human scale.</p>
<p>If the cemetery board is ultimately forced by circumstances (or their legal department) to close access entirely, what will those living in the West Hills do then?</p>
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